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Free Speech in the UK

Started by ElectronicVice, March 24, 2018, 10:05:43 PM

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Tolvo

Isn't that woman an agitator and far right activist that does stunts like this?

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:08:04 PM
Isn't that woman an agitator and far right activist that does stunts like this?

I dunno. Possibly. So? If she's getting death threats, shouldn't she be protected under the law same as everybody else? Or does being a Far Right Activist mean that she forfeits her right to protection under the law? :P




Anyway, I'm done derailing the thread. I'm a wee bit busy today, and if I don't step out now then I'll be replying all day and I've got shit to doooooo.

I've just said what I wanted to say, so before I get told off by the mods or something ( :P ), I'll step out now. Until next time, peeps! :D
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Vergil Tanner

[Quick addendum: Did a quick google search, and she identifies herself as an Anti Fascist Libertarian]
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Tolvo

It means are we sure any of what she is posting is real or in proper context? We don't see the people she's talking to or any of the building she's in really to get a good idea. And when just doing a google search it seems like she likes to incite hatred toward Muslims.

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:11:00 PM
It means are we sure any of what she is posting is real or in proper context? We don't see the people she's talking to or any of the building she's in really to get a good idea. And when just doing a google search it seems like she likes to incite hatred toward Muslims.

Sources? Can you give me articles or things she's written that is inciting hatred towards Muslims, please? I'm being genuine, if I have this wrong, I want to know. :P
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Lustful Bride

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on April 22, 2018, 10:09:28 PM
I dunno. Possibly. So? If she's getting death threats, shouldn't she be protected under the law same as everybody else? Or does being a Far Right Activist mean that she forfeits her right to protection under the law? :P

I want to say yes so badly.

But no, she is entitled to the same rights, because if we deny rights to one person it sets a bad precedent, but then it depends on the type of agitation and stunts she pulls. Is she going full on Westboro Baptist Church or more like pranks or just papers? Because at a certain point a person is just going out and looking for trouble, and they shouldn't be surprised if it finds them. :/

I have rights to do whatever I want, but I'm not gonna go into a bar flipping people off because I know one might get angry and smash a beer bottle on my face.

Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:11:00 PM
It means are we sure any of what she is posting is real or in proper context? We don't see the people she's talking to or any of the building she's in really to get a good idea. And when just doing a google search it seems like she likes to incite hatred toward Muslims.

If she were bringing up actual info and fair points id support her,  but no she seems to be looking for trouble. All support for her has been removed. :P

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Lustful Bride on April 22, 2018, 10:13:47 PM
If she were bringing up actual info and fair points id support her,  but no she seems to be looking for trouble. All support for her has been removed. :P

Even if she is looking for trouble, even if she is deliberately saying inflammatory things...does that mean that people are now allowed to send them death threats? That people are now allowed to harass them?

The law needs to be applied evenly and fairly. Ok, she might well be saying deliberately inflammatory things. The people harassing / threatening her are still breaking the law.
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

TheGlyphstone

Isn't the Anti-Fascist/Antifa moniker usually associated with the far left, not the far right?

Tolvo

Well she associates with Katie Hopkins who is a white supremacist.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/988036575794794496

She retweets a lot of white supremacist and racist accounts. Example here.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/987651777490247681

Just looking through a lot of people she tags into tweets a lot of them have right wing and neo-nazi relations.

She also very clearly hates Muslim people. This is her both questioning the validity of Islam while referencing the Neo-Nazi site Religion of Peace.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/985968450882416651

Just going off of her tweets she appears to be a Neo-Nazi.

Lustful Bride

Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:19:57 PM
Well she associates with Katie Hopkins who is a white supremacist.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/988036575794794496

She retweets a lot of white supremacist and racist accounts. Example here.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/987651777490247681

Just looking through a lot of people she tags into tweets a lot of them have right wing and neo-nazi relations.

She also very clearly hates Muslim people. This is her both questioning the validity of Islam while referencing the Neo-Nazi site Religion of Peace.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/985968450882416651

Just going off of her tweets she appears to be a Neo-Nazi.

Yeah I say put her in the same category as the Westboro nuts. She deserves the same rights and all but now the cops seem more like they are just tired of dealing with her antagonization efforts when they could be handling real crimes.

TheGlyphstone

That makes being a self described antifacist even weirder, since facism is a core element of the Nazi philosophy.

Tolvo

She may just be claiming to be an anti-fascist as a guard against people questioning her, or she might not know what it means. She also might be a former one still using the moniker as going through her tweets she seems to be transitioning from Left-Wing to Right-Wing.

Anti-Fascism is a Left-Wing ideology yeah.

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: TheGlyphstone on April 22, 2018, 10:17:06 PM
Isn't the Anti-Fascist/Antifa moniker usually associated with the far left, not the far right?

Yes, Antifa is far left, and they are just as bad as the "Fascists" they oppose. Sometimes, they're even worse. Horseshoe theory in full effect.
Though I don't think Jonaya is Antifa. Not as far as I can tell, anyway, but I might be wrong.

In any case, who she is doesn't really matter. From what I can see, she hasn't broken the law as far as I can figure, and even if she has, she would still be under the protection of said law in other respects. Police don't just stop investigating the murder of a gang member because he was a gang member and therefore "Not under the protection of the law anymore," after all.




Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:19:57 PM
Well she associates with Katie Hopkins who is a white supremacist.

So...guilt by association?


Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:19:57 PMShe retweets a lot of white supremacist and racist accounts. Example here.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/987651777490247681

Ok, so...she retweeted a White Supremacist account. You do realise that that does not automatically make you a White Supremacist, right? Context is King. Let's see what that Tweet says;

"Watch the debate where Mo Ansar tells Toni that I deserve the death threats an inaction and failure of @gmpolice because I criticised Islam."

Ok. How was that White Supremacist AT ALL? It was retweeting a debate that mentioned her. She isn't expressing support for White Supremacy, she's making a comment on somebodies comments about her.
Do you have a better example?


Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:19:57 PMJust looking through a lot of people she tags into tweets a lot of them have right wing and neo-nazi relations.

Ok, so again...guilt by association. She's guilty of the horrible things that people she tags say? The only example you've provided of her retweeting a White Supremacist is her simply responding to something somebody said about her in a debate. How is that showing support for White Supremacy?


Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:19:57 PMShe also very clearly hates Muslim people. This is her both questioning the validity of Islam while referencing the Neo-Nazi site Religion of Peace.

https://twitter.com/SergeantFrisky/status/985968450882416651

What the actual fuck? How did you get "She hates Muslims" from THAT tweet? I think you're being disingenuous here. Lessee...the Tweet reads:

"And I repeat, how are you going to show me that Islam is a religion of peace? By threatening to throw acid in my face and racially insulting white people? Oh my...
P.S. I once *insert appropriate word* a "woman of Islam"! "

How does that show ANY dislike of Muslims? That's a criticism of Islam, not Muslims. Are you saying that if I criticise Christianity, then I must hate all Christians?

And let's read what she was responding to, shall we?

"You should get what you deserve. Someone should throw acid on your face to melt away that insulting smile of yours and blasphemers like you should be forced feed [sic] to the pigs unclean trash. White-Devils are a curse against Muslims and you should be seen nothing more then trash that you, like you should sent to hell for your insults against Islam and Allahu. Ugly white piggies like you are unclean and less then a woman of Islam."

And you're saying her criticising Islam and the asshole who sent her that message is her "Hating all Muslims?"
Have you got any better examples, because none of these say what you say they say.



Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:19:57 PMJust going off of her tweets she appears to be a Neo-Nazi.

How the Sam Hell did you come to that conclusion based on what you just posted? O_O


Quote from: Lustful Bride on April 22, 2018, 10:22:18 PM
Yeah I say put her in the same category as the Westboro nuts. She deserves the same rights and all but now the cops seem more like they are just tired of dealing with her antagonization efforts when they could be handling real crimes.

Did you actually read those Tweets that he linked? >.>




Quote from: TheGlyphstone on April 22, 2018, 10:22:49 PM
That makes being a self described antifacist even weirder, since facism is a core element of the Nazi philosophy.

Nothing about them makes sense. xD





Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:24:14 PM
She may just be claiming to be an anti-fascist as a guard against people questioning her, or she might not know what it means. She also might be a former one still using the moniker as going through her tweets she seems to be transitioning from Left-Wing to Right-Wing.

Again...have you got any good examples? :P
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Tolvo

Hmm if you are not going to discuss in good faith or properly gender me then I'm afraid I'm done with this discussion. Goodbye.

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:37:40 PM
Hmm if you are not going to discuss in good faith

Ok, being serious here, how am I not replying in good faith? I looked at the links you sent. Did I miss something?


Quote from: Tolvo on April 22, 2018, 10:37:40 PMor properly gender me then I'm afraid I'm done with this discussion. Goodbye.

That was actually a typo, sorry. >.>
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

Lustful Bride

Oh god this is giving me a headache. Can I just go with everyone sucks? :P

Tolvo

I will accept that that could have been a typo so I won't hold that against you. I still though feel the discussion is not on equal terms nor a positive one so I will excuse myself from it.

This also isn't me saying "I win!" or anything of that degree. Just that I personally decide to leave it at least for now.

Vergil Tanner

Quote from: Lustful Bride on April 22, 2018, 10:39:44 PM
Oh god this is giving me a headache. Can I just go with everyone sucks? :P

Yes, you can. xD Everybody does indeed suck :P

Aaaaaanywho, it's about time I stepped out of this discussion. I said I was gonna do it ages ago, but I kept getting sucked back in xD Now I do indeed have things to do, so I shall be off. Have a good one, peeps! :D
Vergil's Faceclaim Archive; For All Your Character Model Seeking Needs!


Men in general judge more by the sense of sight than by that of touch, because everyone can see but few can test by feeling. Everyone sees what you seem to be, few know what you really are; and those few do not dare take a stand against the general opinion. Therefore it is unnecessary to have all the qualities I have enumerated, but it is very necessary to appear to have them. And I shall dare to say this also, that to have them and always observe them is injurious, and that to appear to have them is useful; to appear merciful, faithful, humane, religious, upright, and be so, but with a mind so framed that should you require not to be so, you may be able and know how to change to the opposite.

Dubbed the "Oath of Drake,"
A noble philosophy; I adhere...for now.

LisztesFerenc

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on April 22, 2018, 09:37:14 PMLessee...

AHAH!

Definition of Freedom of Speech:
"The power or right to express oneself without censorship, restraint, or legal penalty." [Emphasis Mine]

So...you are wrong. This clearly violates freedom of speech.

  A one sentence definition of a legal concept is not "AHAH!". Freedom of speech is a bit more complicated than that, and more importantly, varied. Germany notable outlaws holocaust denial and the nazi salute. It still has freedom of speech. Freedom of speech can more than survive a short list of exceptions (no shouting "fire" in a crowded space, no inciting hatred, noise complaints). The right to say racial slurs is not the final hill on which freedom of speech plants its standard and decalres "Till death!". As long as you can critisize the government and other institutions, public and private, without restraint or legal penalty you have freedom of speech.

LisztesFerenc

  Sorry, you posted that you were stepping out whilst I typed the reply. I didn't see it, or I wouldn't have bothered posting.

MiraMirror

Quote from: Vergil Tanner on April 22, 2018, 09:37:14 PM
And I am politely declining on principle.
I'm sorry, but...what about my usage here is offensive and uncivil? I am using it in reference to the words existence and the situation. I am not saying "Oi, N****, fuck off." I am not saying "Fuck that darky N****." I am saying "The word Nigga should not be legally punishable." So what about that context is offensive and uncivil? I patently reject the notion that a word is inherently, regardless of context, uncivil. Am I being uncivil to you by using the word? How? I'm not using the word directly at you, nor am I directing it at anybody specific. I appreciate that you find the word offensive, but nobody has the right to not be offended and...I am going to continue using it in the context that I have been using it out of principle and defiance of the stupid UK legislation that would seek to fine and / or imprison me simply for uttering those two syllables.

Everything else in this particular conversation aside, I'd genuinely like to understand why you wouldn't just stop saying it.  Like... you said you won't stop saying it based on principle, and I could maybe understand if she'd been rude about it, threatened you over it, or called you some name/cursed you out, but she didn't.  I just don't quite understand why, if someone's asking politely for an alternate word or something to be used, especially in a situation where it would still be understood as that same word.  Like, if someone used the word Tranny or something, which is arguably hatespeech in its own right, considering it's used by bigoted people or those who wish to commit violence against people like me...and I asked really politely for people to stop throwing that word around in a conversation, maybe because it was used during some kind of traumatic event or something like that, would you still refuse to stop saying it based on principle, even if it could potentially really mess with a person?  Or would you effectively say "Too bad, I'm saying it, and I don't care if it messes with you or hurts you, you can get out if you don't like it"?

I'm not trying to get hostile, but it just...doesn't really seem like the biggest issue to just find another word, is all.  Or I don't quite understand the principle you're going for here.
On's and Offs -  Please read before asking for a story <3

RedRose

Quote from: Lustful Bride on April 22, 2018, 09:32:06 PM
So then if the term 'Nigga' is going to get people in legal trouble, then that pretty much means a ton of rap artists cannot sing in the UK since it is different from the actual N word and is used a lot in rap.

I do think art as opposed to hate speech is different.
Some French rappers have said outrageous things about police, gay people... and the songs are still around. Same for N word. I do know some got in trouble for the worst of it.
On the other hand, no once will censor Gone with the Wind. There was this singer who asked for Agatha Christie's title Dix Petits Nègres to be changed when the series came out (she probably didn't know of the book?) but it was met with laughing and bashing.
O/O and ideas - write if you'd be a good Aaron Warner (Juliette) [Shatter me], Tarkin (Leia), Wilkins (Faith) [Buffy the VS]
[what she reading: 50 TALES A YEAR]



gaggedLouise

Quote from: RedRose on April 23, 2018, 04:08:13 AM
I do think art as opposed to hate speech is different.
Some French rappers have said outrageous things about police, gay people... and the songs are still around. Same for N word. I do know some got in trouble for the worst of it.
On the other hand, no once will censor Gone with the Wind. There was this singer who asked for Agatha Christie's title Dix Petits Nègres to be changed when the series came out (she probably didn't know of the book?) but it was met with laughing and bashing.

The title of that book was changed decades ago in the US, and then in the UK and many other countries. Apparently with Christie's consent. The trouble is that "negro" at least was completely respectable fifty-sixty years ago, and used even when people were talking about the most admired black artists and politicians: Duke Ellington was dubbed a "brilliant Negro composer", and MLK was called a "negro leader" even by many white people who admired the man. It could be argued that it was a sign of the legacy of racism in itself to pack them all under that word, but I don't really think this milder form of the N-word has to be removed from old books, films and works of history and fiction. With "N**ga" the word is definitely defamatory and kinda racist, even if it's sometimes used in an ironic way, so I think that brings some other considerations to the table.

It's a bit like the C-word. I'll defend the right to use the word cunt in books or song lyrics, if it's done for artistic reasons (or with a view to a very specific kind of audience, as sometimes in adult texts), but of course I won't defend anyone and everyone's right to call women "cunt" to their faces right, left and center. I've been called so myself, for the record, and even presenting as either gender. Being a good girl I didn't fight back, but I made it clear that I didn't accept it.

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

RedEve

A lot of Hergé's early Tintin comics are racist by modern standards yet they are still being sold.

I think they should remain if only as products of their time.

It's actually interesting to trace Hergé's own ideological shift through the run of his comic book. He started out as a right-wing Christian and ended up as a left-wing atheist.
"I don't have a dirty mind, I have a sexy imagination."
My ons and offs- My F-list

gaggedLouise

Quote from: RedEve on April 23, 2018, 05:24:31 AM
A lot of Hergé's early Tintin comics are racist by modern standards yet they are still being sold.

I think they should remain if only as products of their time.

It's actually interesting to trace Hergé's own ideological shift through the run of his comic book. He started out as a right-wing Christian and ended up as a left-wing atheist.

Tintin in Congo is by far the most blatant one, and he disavowed that one later in life. There are some washes of racist stereotypes in several other of his 30s and early 40s albums, but (except for Congo) rarely used in an openly demeaning way, to paint the "others" as wicked, cruel or fanatic because of their race or ethnic background.

He almost never used racist motives as the motor of the story. I remember reading the album Jo, Zette and Jocko: The Mystic Ray when I was about nine or ten, it's a late thirties album about two French kids who are abducted by a mad professor determine to create robots and transfer human minds to them - a modern Captain Nemo with a massivebase on the ocean floor,  submarines and even underwater tanks that can descend two hundred meters down (!). There are some plainly racist elements in the depiction of a black African tribe on a desert island who are superstitious cannibals and who in turn pick up Jo and his sister Zette when they have escaped from the professor and his pirates - the dark.skinned ones try to feed them in order to cook and eat them and so on...As an adult I can see the racism of it of course, but it's not a leading motive in the story, and the black tribe is portrayed as silly and rough rather than outright evil and very dangerous. :)

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"