Legalize it NOW!

[Kane Gunlock]

this is thread is to discuss the full legalization are Marijuana and hemp made materials with in the united states (or other places if some of you like) so what are your thoughts ?

[Inkidu]

Why?

[Kane Gunlock]

ummm because abolition  laws are utter bullshit

[Oniya]

So, just because it's impossible for a law abolishing it to be effective (a la Prohibition), it should therefore be legal? 

[Kane Gunlock]

I suppose I mean what good did prohibition do ? all it did was make a bunch of crooks rich
but no I will totally and honestly admit that I enjoy the occasional use of Cannabis and I would like to see it legalized because plain and simply I don't want to be labeled as a criminal because I smoke

[Oniya]

Hm.  I suppose I was hoping you'd have a more convincing argument.

[Kane Gunlock]

I don't know...sorry  ???  um it has many medical uses and you can make pretty much any thing out of hemp is that good Enough ?

[Scribbles]

Rescinding a law because you don’t like it really isn’t the best of arguments; instead you should try going into the benefits of your proposal and explain how the current law is detrimental. You could even think outside the box and perhaps argue on substituting alcohol, a much more debilitating substance, with marijuana, or outline how the government and public may have over exaggerated and demonized a mostly harmless drug. You’ll find few will want to engage in a debate that starts with a basic statement of preference and little substance. If you want this to get off the ground you’ll have to create an argument that critics can analyze and counter or concur with. Trust me, the information is out there and these days you can argue for or against practically anything.

[Kane Gunlock]

I hate to under mind what you said and I totally agree with it buuuuut I'm tired soooo cant really put two and one together right now ...sorry

[Scribbles]

No worries, I know the feeling.  ;)

[Callie Del Noire]

I don't know...sorry  ???  um it has many medical uses and you can make pretty much any thing out of hemp is that good Enough ?

So does cocaine, does that entail we open it for public distribution?

[Doomsday]

Let's make arguments for legalization and be literate about it.

1.) In 2001 (old numbers but good numbers) 723,627 people were arrested in the United States just for possessing marijuana. This is a huge burden on our prison system, costing billions just to protect us from our own choices.
2.) Marijuana has many practical uses besides the obvious use. It is medicinal, practical (hemp, anyone?). Not to mention, the government would have an excuse to tax it and make money off of it if it were legal.
3.) It is arguably less dangerous than alcohol, which is not only legal in the United States, it is celebrated.
4.) One of the platforms used by anti-Marijuana activists in the early 20th century was blatant racism.
5.) Why should the government tell us what to do and what not to do in our own time and on our own property?

[Saerrael]

Actually, legalizing drugs would make it easier to get them out of the criminal scene and keep tabs on quality.

Not to mention, the government would have an excuse to tax it and make money off of it if it were legal.

And there is that, of course.

[Trieste]

Even decriminalization has gone a long way toward easing the burden on MA authorities. I occasionally catch a whiff of the stuff on the street, but you don't have people going around smoking huge blunts on the street, either. The potheads are still potheads, the straightedges are still straightedges, it's just that fewer of the former are in jail needlessly now.

What they really need to do is legalize it and tax it like they do cigs. Might wanna stock up on veggies and fruit and dips right next to the Mary Jane, though, otherwise we might have to worry a lot more about that obesity thing.

[Scribbles]

Taxing it is a lot more difficult than alcohol as practically anyone can grow it, right in their own homes. Makes it a lot less profitable for the government, especially if you consider that it may steal profits from the already taxed alcoholic side.

[Trieste]

Well, yes, anyone can grow it... but anyone can make moonshine, too, and that doesn't happen. *shrug* Just because you can doesn't mean you will... and just because you can't make money off of it doesn't mean you should continue to criminalize something.

[Brandon]

The reason why I am against the legalization of Cannibas is because of the hallucogenic properties in Tetrahydrocannibinol (THC) which is the most active chemical found in it. THC amounts vary widely based on soil richness, climate minerals, lighting and more so its unlikely that the amounts can be controlled and reduce the hallucinogen's in the plant while maintaining the effect of being high.

Hallucinogen's can be dangerous to the user and those around them. Unlike inebriation you loose cognitive function because the setting around you changes to something its not. With inebriation you still retain cognitive functions no matter how drunk you are but they are limited by the amount of alcohol in your bloodstream.

To complicate matters there are at least 421 chemicals in a non-lit blunt and over 2000 chemicals once it has been lit. I did a quick google search but I could not find any references that list all of these chemicals which makes me suspect that we don't know exactly what a persons putting into their body when they use it. I also find it hard to find any references that show effects over life long exposure to marijuana so on that basis alone I think its best to be kept illegal till we know the full medical implications over a human's lifespan.

To the drugs credit, you would have to smoke over a pound a minute to die from exposure to marijuana and thats just not possible so death isnt a likely outcome for anyone. Unlike other drugs

So there's three reasons not to legalize it. 1) THC levels and thus hallucenogenic properties are at best unpredictable 2) We have not yet fully analyzed the chemicals in marijuana and 3) we dont yet know the life long effects of a marijuana user

For the record, I do not consider Marijuana users as criminals. I just think natural highs such as orgasms are healthier

[Scribbles]

Well, yes, anyone can grow it... but anyone can make moonshine, too, and that doesn't happen. *shrug* Just because you can doesn't mean you will... and just because you can't make money off of it doesn't mean you should continue to criminalize something.

It's a lot more of a pain to make moonshine than grow a weed and you misinterpreted me; I was suggesting that a few entrepreneurial politicians might not enjoy seeing such a hefty source of income being cut, even if slightly. :P

[Trieste]

Ah! My bad. :P

[Scribbles]

It's okay, I really did come off as a government lemming in that one.  :-)

[Trieste]

>.>

And I forgot to say also: It's easy to make moonshine. It's harder to make moonshine without the methanol content, but that's just being picky.

<.<

[Scribbles]

I still believe that it's a lot easier to grow marijuana as well as easier to teach on how to; plant a seed and from then on the difference only comes in with the sort of care it is given. No need for a still or complicated process (relatively speaking) and you have a better idea of what might come out. That said, I have been pleasantly surprised by some homemade beverages.

...

Just wanted to add that I hardly drink or smoke. :P

[Tachi]

I think it's a bit crazy that people want to use a plants natural defense mechanism to deliberately alter the neurotoxins in their brain. Those who need it for medical purposes should have access to it and be able to use it as much as their disability/illness demands, but those who just want to get high should not be allowed near it.

[Trieste]

I still believe that it's a lot easier to grow marijuana as well as easier to teach on how to; plant a seed and from then on the difference only comes in with the sort of care it is given. No need for a still or complicated process (relatively speaking) and you have a better idea of what might come out. That said, I have been pleasantly surprised by some homemade beverages.

...

Just wanted to add that I hardly drink or smoke. :P

You've clearly never seen the likes of me try to grow a plant! *has a black thumb*

I think it's a bit crazy that people want to use a plants natural defense mechanism to deliberately alter the neurotoxins in their brain. Those who need it for medical purposes should have access to it and be able to use it as much as their disability/illness demands, but those who just want to get high should not be allowed near it.

Just because you don't see the merit in it doesn't mean it should not be allowed.

[Jude]

those who just want to get high should not be allowed near it.

But why?  What gives you the right to tell other people what they can and cannot do as long as it only affects them?

If you want to debate the residual effects that occur in directly, there are a lot of behaviors in our country that have indirect bad consequences on your friends and family but we allow those.  Gambling is a far more dangerous activity to engage in than smoking marijuana for sure.

[Oniya]

>.>

And I forgot to say also: It's easy to make moonshine. It's harder to make moonshine without the methanol content, but that's just being picky.

<.<

I dunno - I was fermenting stuff in college purely by accident.  Later I refined my technique, but the most specialized piece in my setup was still a vapor lock.

At one point, my mother-in-law was given a permit for cannabis to deal with chemo-induced nausea (Hep-C).  I'm not sure how well it worked, because she didn't like the smoking aspect.  I've heard that it's effective for glaucoma, but again, I'm not sure if smoking it is required for it to work.

[Will]

I still believe that it's a lot easier to grow marijuana as well as easier to teach on how to; plant a seed and from then on the difference only comes in with the sort of care it is given. No need for a still or complicated process (relatively speaking) and you have a better idea of what might come out. That said, I have been pleasantly surprised by some homemade beverages.

...

Just wanted to add that I hardly drink or smoke. :P

Anybody can throw a seed in the dirt, sure.  The thing is, most marijuana growing is not just throwing a seed in the dirt.  It takes a lot of effort to make a plant produce enough for even personal use, maybe as much or more effort than it takes to run a still.  Environment has to be controlled, including temperature, lighting, pests, and fungi, and plants have to be cared for and eventually separated.  It can actually be a very complicated process indeed, and it runs the electric bill up something awful.  That's compared to the ease with which one can make beer or wine, and yet how many people do?  Why should we?  I could go down the street and buy a six pack right now, if I wanted.

Oh, and I don't smoke either.  I do however think the way in which the stuff was made illegal is rather ridiculous, and I wouldn't be against legalization.

[Zeitgeist]

Over the years I've softened my opinion on legalization. My older brother has smoked since he was a teenager, and still does to this day. When I saw him last he smoked it couple of times. He uses it to normalize his appetite and just to feel alright, normal. He's got some medical issues to deal with.

That said, from what I've seen many people are using the medicinal argument to hide behind, and in the end do their cause no good, in fact probably damage it. The stuff does nothing for me but make me feel like shit, so I don't do it. Although this is true today, I fear not everyone who uses it would do so responsibility. I can assure you, were Zamdrist high, he should not be driving a car. Will others be responsible? Not likely, but that is true today also.

But also, careful what you wish for. Legalization won't be a free license to smoke up whenever, however and wherever you want. If the government legalizes it, then its going to want to tax it, regulate it, control it. Careful what you wish for.

But me personally, I don't really care either way.

[Kane Gunlock]

I think it's a bit crazy that people want to use a plants natural defense mechanism to deliberately alter the neurotoxins in their brain. Those who need it for medical purposes should have access to it and be able to use it as much as their disability/illness demands, but those who just want to get high should not be allowed near it.

I disagree Cannibus is a vary sensitive plant it constantly has to have light and you can't grow it year round it's kind of a science though to be totally far I don't know a lot about it so yeah you maybe right

[Nadir]

I think it should be legalised, so the quality of the drug can be controlled, but at the same time I am uneasy about the long term effects of using it.

Oh, but of course, like anything it should have its moderation. Chainsmokers get cancer, alcoholics get organ failure, excessive eaters get obese. I suppose the effects of cannabis is no worse than those. 

[Le RandomBloke]

My opinion on this is rather simple, Alcohol can be just as damaging on your system perhaps even worse and I much rather have a high person bump into me on the street than a drunk one. It's not such a big deal where I live, not legal, but you are allowed to carry a certain amount with you for personal use anyway. Seriously, I much rather see alcohol under the restrictions it is now than marijuana and I don't even smoke or drink that often. (Haven't smoked anything in about 5 weeks or so, so it isn't that addictive either.)

[Doomsday]

So there's three reasons not to legalize it. 1) THC levels and thus hallucenogenic properties are at best unpredictable 2) We have not yet fully analyzed the chemicals in marijuana and 3) we dont yet know the life long effects of a marijuana user

1.) "Marijuana is the leaf or flower of the plant Cannabis sativa and is commonly known as pot, grass, or weed. It contains the psychoactive substance THC. Although usually grouped with other hallucinogens, marijuana rarely causes hallucinations. Acute effects from smoking marijuana include an alteration in perception or mood, laughing, increased appetite, conjunctival injection, tachycardia, and mild CNS depression." citation
2.) Are you referring to the chemicals in marijuana, or the different drugs/chems that some dealers may sprinkle in? How many chemicals does naturally grown, undoctored marijuana contain?
3.) Bullshit. My own mother is living proof of 'the life-long effects'. Bad knees (unrelated). Hepatitis C (unrelated). Obesity (genetic, relative to her bad knees, perhaps related to marijuana but I severely doubt that). Besides the anecdote, marijuana has been grown and used by humans since the dawn of agriculture and was legal in the United States as recently as the 1930's. Don't act like it's some new drug, that nobody has ever researched it.

...but those who just want to get high should not be allowed near it.

Don't you think adults should deserve responsibility over their personal choices, not the government? Should we outlaw everything that 'you' don't agree with?

[Doomsday]

An insight into me: I'm 20, have only smoked marijuana twice, and have vaporized marijuana once. As I indicated in my last post, I've grown up around the use of marijuana, and I have seen first hand how dangerous (or, perhaps, the lack of danger) involved in long-term use and short-term use. There is no addiction, no need to get a fix. You can argue it would be unsafe to smoke and drive (perhaps, I have anecdotal evidence that it doesn't, but take that for what its' worth) but one of the last things you feel the need to do when you smoke is drive.

You can argue that its' a waste of time, and I might not argue with you there. I once sat on a couch and watched some guy I didn't even know play Grand Theft Auto for five hours, laughing non-stop. I was high as a motherfucker :D Actually, the only time I've ever been high. But I digress.

I was diagnosed with glaucoma a couple of years ago. I don't have the anniversary marked on my calendar. Argon Laser treatment would cost me about $600 bucks, at least, uninsured (and I'm not even sure if there are any specialists in my area). And I need it maybe twice a year, each eye. What's really got me nervous is that I haven't gotten treatment since last spring... Because we just don't have the money, nor do we know about any specialists in the area since we moved to this state.

It would be AMAZINGLY easier and cheaper on my and my family if I could obtain medical marijuana. It's a slap in the face that in the 30's, some racists got marijuana outlawed and fucked up a really good thing. Worse yet is that this country still has some irrational fear/hatred of the simple plant, and that it's associated with pure evil when it could be helping a lot of people and it's not.

[Scribbles]

You've clearly never seen the likes of me try to grow a plant! *has a black thumb*

Same, but thankfully I don't have much of a taste for alcohol or marijuana. Going to stick with my weekly dose of chocolate milk.  :-)

Anybody can throw a seed in the dirt, sure.  The thing is, most marijuana growing is not just throwing a seed in the dirt.  It takes a lot of effort to make a plant produce enough for even personal use, maybe as much or more effort than it takes to run a still.  Environment has to be controlled, including temperature, lighting, pests, and fungi, and plants have to be cared for and eventually separated.  It can actually be a very complicated process indeed, and it runs the electric bill up something awful.  That's compared to the ease with which one can make beer or wine, and yet how many people do?  Why should we?  I could go down the street and buy a six pack right now, if I wanted.

As I said, beyond shoving a seed into the dirt any further care simply dictates how well your crop will turn out. Of course, practical gardening should go without saying. In the end, you're listing items and expenses most people I know didn't even bother with and yet they managed quite easily and were pretty proud of their end results. Again as I said, complexity is relative. Personally, I'm not suited for either moonshine or marijuana.  :P

[mannik]

Well, here's my two cents on the issue.

I can see no logical reason why it should'nt be a legal intoxicant (For recreational use as well as medicinal). The impact on ones health is no greater than that of alcohol or cigarets, and its mental alterations are much milder and indeed, more desireable.

When was the last time you heard of a guy getting high on pot and beating his wife and kids when he otherwise wouldn't? How about getting drunk and doing the same? I can't count the number of times I've seen a guy, who is normally a great person, become a beligerant ass after just two beers. Marijuana's effects on behavior and judgement are far less severe and almost the complete opposite. It makes you happier, and nicer and lowers inhebitions just a tiny bit, just enough for someone who is otherwise anti-social and reclusive to actually go out and enjoy the company of others. But you won't wind up trying to pick a fight with your best friend or wind up sleeping with the bearded woman.

That said, there are few things with as much history as marijuana. There was a point in time when the entire human civilization depended upon it for war, travel, and comerce. Clothes, sails, rope, arrows, lumber, medicine...you name it, it can be made with hemp.

What really gets me though, is how it came to be illegal. The secretary of the freaking tresurey launched a propaganda campaign full of bold faced lies and missinformation that scared the masses into outlawing it. They actually claimed it turned people into insane, violent, sex addicted psychopaths....which is now known to be complete crap.

[Doomsday]

What really gets me though, is how it came to be illegal. The secretary of the freaking tresurey launched a propaganda campaign full of bold faced lies and missinformation that scared the masses into outlawing it. They actually claimed it turned people into insane, violent, sex addicted psychopaths....which is now known to be complete crap.

Lemme show you some quotes from the website I cited last page. Pretty crazy.

When Montana outlawed marijuana in 1927, the Butte Montana Standard reported a legislator’s comment: “When some beet field peon takes a few traces of this stuff… he thinks he has just been elected president of Mexico, so he starts out to execute all his political enemies.” In Texas, a senator said on the floor of the Senate: “All Mexicans are crazy, and this stuff [marijuana] is what makes them crazy.”

Again, racism was part of the charge against marijuana, as newspapers in 1934 editorialized: “Marihuana influences Negroes to look at white people in the eye, step on white men’s shadows and look at a white woman twice.”

“There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others.”

    “…the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races.”

    “Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death.”

    “Reefer makes darkies think they’re as good as white men.”

    “Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing”

    “You smoke a joint and you’re likely to kill your brother.”

    “Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind.”

The fatal marihuana cigarette must be recognized as a deadly drug, and American children must be protected against it.

The classic "Think of the children!" argument *eyefuckingroll*

[Rider of Wind]

  I would actually like to see it legalized. Controlled and taxed but allowed. It does seem to be a waste of jail space when heroin or cocaine dealers could be there instead. *has an insane hatred for heroin* Now that's that shit that will kill a person on accident.

  Problems are present, just as with alcohol or cigarettes. Unwanted side effects. It's not addictive like cigs but wait til the tobacco companies get their hands on it legally and put nicotine in it. I don't even want to imagine. And there will always be those with addictive natures that will NEED it. Just like alcoholics.

  Over a long-period of time, it hardcore hurts memory, mostly short-term. I've seen this in my father, it's seems borderline-dementia-like (yes, it's caused by weed, not dementia) A more in-depth explanation. But on the other hand, it's extremely unlikely to kill someone or truly harm them.

  And remember about Prohibition, it was stupid and seemingly pointless. But it DID work! At least for a while, even despite the illegal liquor houses and the like.

 

It’s true that alcohol consumption fell during Prohibition, at least initially. In a 1991 paper, economists Jeffrey Miron and Jeffrey Zwiebel estimated, based on four measures (cirrhosis, alcoholism deaths, arrests for drunkenness, and alcoholic psychoses), that consumption dropped 60 to 80 percent immediately after Prohibition was enacted, then rebounded sharply beginning in 1921. By the end of the decade, consumption was 50 to 70 percent of the pre-Prohibition level according to three measures and slightly higher according to one....

Link

  Still. It was lower.

   Growing plants is easy for me, growing marijuana, even good marijuana, isn't too difficult with a little plant savviness *admits to NOTHING*

[mannik]

... Over a long-period of time, it hardcore hurts memory, mostly short-term. I've seen this in my father, it's seems borderline-dementia-like (yes, it's caused by weed, not dementia) A more in-depth explanation. But on the other hand, it's extremely unlikely to kill someone or truly harm them....

Actually...you can't die from it. Even if you tried. In that aspect it is actually safer than many of the foods we eat every day. 10 raw potatoes can induce a toxic responce, however there is no lethal limit to the ammount of marijuana your body can intake.

Medical drugs are often tested to find what is called "LD-50 rating". Essentially, the LD-50 rating is the dosage at which 50% of test animals given a substance die from a toxic response triggered by the dosage. Scientists have tried, and failed to find the LD-50 of marijuana. In other words...researchers have failed to give test animals enough marijuana to kill them (Despite trying).

[Oniya]

“Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"

"You smoke a joint and you’re likely to kill your brother."

I find the juxtaposition of these two 'rationales' particularly amusing.

Medical drugs are often tested to find what is called "LD-50 rating". Essentially, the LD-50 rating is the dosage at which 50% of test animals given a substance die from a toxic response triggered by the dosage. Scientists have tried, and failed to find the LD-50 of marijuana. In other words...researchers have failed to give test animals enough marijuana to kill them (Despite trying).

Not only medical drugs, but just about anything that you could possibly get in your mouth.  Household cleaners, hospital disinfectants, paint...  One of the things I do with my work is take the lab results of these studies and put them into language that the regulatory people understand.  Neither one is really English, but that's a whole other matter.  If I could write the reports in English, they would read: 'Do not eat paint.  It won't kill you, but it will make your stomach turn white (or whatever color the paint is).  If you spill paint on you, it won't kill you, but you should wash it off as soon as possible.  Spilling paint on yourself more than once is not any more dangerous than spilling it on yourself once.  Getting paint in your eyes hurts.  Wash it out quickly.  Do not huff paint.'

Generally, they stop testing a substance for oral tox at 5 grams per kilogram of body weight - that's about 8 ounces per hundred pounds.  That's an awful lot of hash brownies.

[Kane Gunlock]

wow this really took off I'm glad I posted this thanks for your feed from fellow stoners and non-stoners alike ( don't worry I respect your judgment not to smoke the gaanja) this is what I think about the war on drugs altogether (mide you I'm qouting this and will post a link to the stand up set it's related to

"It's not a war on Drugs, its a war on personal freedoms"-Bill Hicks

Bill Hicks - Mandatory Marijuana

[Spell]

This video needn't share my opinion about weed, but I found it appropriate/humorous to post it here.

[Kane Gunlock]

 
  Problems are present, just as with alcohol or cigarettes. Unwanted side effects. It's not addictive like cigs but wait til the tobacco companies get their hands on it legally and put nicotine in it. I don't even want to imagine. And there will always be those with addictive natures that will NEED it. Just like alcoholics.

that is a scary possibility but again you won't just have those heartless bastards selling it, so ya free market and all

[Doomsday]

This video needn't share my opinion about weed, but I found it appropriate/humorous to post it here.

Ahhaa, I love Katt Williams. "It's not a drug, it's just a plant. It just grows like that. And if you just happen to set it on fire..."

[Kurzyk]

For the record, i'm for legalization. Remembered this movie and had to share.   :D

[Talia]

I think we should all take part in a free study of some sort and summit our findings collectively.

Please ...legalize it !!! =)

[Brandon]

1.) "Marijuana is the leaf or flower of the plant Cannabis sativa and is commonly known as pot, grass, or weed. It contains the psychoactive substance THC. Although usually grouped with other hallucinogens, marijuana rarely causes hallucinations. Acute effects from smoking marijuana include an alteration in perception or mood, laughing, increased appetite, conjunctival injection, tachycardia, and mild CNS depression." citation
2.) Are you referring to the chemicals in marijuana, or the different drugs/chems that some dealers may sprinkle in? How many chemicals does naturally grown, undoctored marijuana contain?
3.) Bullshit. My own mother is living proof of 'the life-long effects'. Bad knees (unrelated). Hepatitis C (unrelated). Obesity (genetic, relative to her bad knees, perhaps related to marijuana but I severely doubt that). Besides the anecdote, marijuana has been grown and used by humans since the dawn of agriculture and was legal in the United States as recently as the 1930's. Don't act like it's some new drug, that nobody has ever researched it.

1) Rarely being the key word here. As long as the possibility of Marijuana use can cause hallucinations then I think its a mistake to allow its use outside of controlled medicinal use.
2) I'm referring to a normal unlit blunt and then a lit blunt.
3) So your grandmothers experience with marijuana is enough to say everyones alright doing it? Sorry but no. People have different tolerance levels to the drug and bodies react differently to exposure. For an unbiased scientific study you have to study a group of people to get accurate results. To my knowledge there have been no life long studies done by the scientific community (although I can cite several 20 year studies). Unless you show me one my point remains valid.

Don't you think adults should deserve responsibility over their personal choices, not the government? Should we outlaw everything that 'you' don't agree with?

I understand where you're coming from here but I disagree to a point. The reason why laws are in place is because someone was doing something they shouldn't have done. If laws were abolished and adults held only to personal responsibility then it would cause a break down in society and create utter chaos as well as give some adults so much freedom that they could justify anything. Now chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing. Chaos is freedom and a free spirit, the ability to adapt to surroundings, and the ability to disagree with tradition. At the same time, to much law forces needless conformity, crushes peoples spirits, and destroys hope.

What I'm saying here is to much of anything can be bad for you and for our society. In the case of Marijuana I think that we don't know enough about it to say it should be legal so better safe then sorry by keeping it illegal till its been studied to full effect.

Edit: I forgot to mention if it is one day legalized then it should be taxed and controlled just like any other recreational product (i.e tabacco and alchohol).

[Doomsday]

I realize it's an anecdote, and I state just as much, so take it for what its' worth. Also, that part where you said there were no long-term studies of marijuana on the human body... Well... Yeah. "Overall, by comparison with other drugs used mainly for ‘recreational’ purposes, cannabis could be rated to be a relatively safe drug." According to Oxford Pharmacology, so take it for what its' worth :P

I understand where you're coming from here but I disagree to a point. The reason why laws are in place is because someone was doing something they shouldn't have done. If laws were abolished and adults held only to personal responsibility then it would cause a break down in society and create utter chaos as well as give some adults so much freedom that they could justify anything. Now chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing. Chaos is freedom and a free spirit, the ability to adapt to surroundings, and the ability to disagree with tradition. At the same time, to much law forces needless conformity, crushes peoples spirits, and destroys hope.

What I'm saying here is to much of anything can be bad for you and for our society. In the case of Marijuana I think that we don't know enough about it to say it should be legal so better safe then sorry by keeping it illegal till its been studied to full effect.

Edit: I forgot to mention if it is one day legalized then it should be taxed and controlled just like any other recreational product (i.e tabacco and alchohol).

You say "The reason why laws are in place is because someone was doing something they shouldn't have done". Who gets to decide what is something 'they shouldn't have done'? Who gets that arbitrary power, and who decides that it's right? Are you implying that marijuana is bad because it's illegal? And that it's illegal because it's bad?

I like how you imply that legalizing marijuana means absolute chaos and anarchy. Yeah. I too am a fan of taking an absolute worst case scenario and even then blowing it way out of proportion.

Then you say "What I'm saying here is to much of anything can be bad for you and for our society". I certainly can't argue with that. Too much water, and you drown or suffer from water poisoning (yes, this actually does happen). Too much oxygen and you'll suffocate. Moderation is key, but do you think everyone who smokes marijuana is automatically using a pound of the stuff per day? You assume that people will not be able to moderate themselves and thus need the government to protect them. Pretty weak, I think.

I agree that if it does become legalized, it will be taxed. Not to say I think it should be; I have no thoughts on that as of right now. But I do believe it would be.

Oh, and one last closing statement... Do you know what the most liberal country in Europe is when it comes to drugs? It's not the Netherlands. It's Portugal.

After decriminalizing all hard drugs in 2001, Portugal's drug use among teens plummeted, the rate of new HIV infections caused by shared needles dropped considerably, and more than twice as many drug users sought treatment for their addictions. Not to mention, the lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 over in Portugal is now at 10%, compared to 39.8% in the United States.

I mean, just sayin'.

[Kane Gunlock]

I understand where you're coming from here but I disagree to a point. The reason why laws are in place is because someone was doing something they shouldn't have done. If laws were abolished and adults held only to personal responsibility then it would cause a break down in society and create utter chaos as well as give some adults so much freedom that they could justify anything. Now chaos isn't necessarily a bad thing. Chaos is freedom and a free spirit, the ability to adapt to surroundings, and the ability to disagree with tradition. At the same time, to much law forces needless conformity, crushes peoples spirits, and destroys hope.

Edit: I forgot to mention if it is one day legalized then it should be taxed and controlled just like any other recreational product (i.e tabacco and alchohol).

Oh, and one last closing statement... Do you know what the most liberal country in Europe is when it comes to drugs? It's not the Netherlands. It's Portugal.

After decriminalizing all hard drugs in 2001, Portugal's drug use among teens plummeted, the rate of new HIV infections caused by shared needles dropped considerably, and more than twice as many drug users sought treatment for their addictions. Not to mention, the lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 over in Portugal is now at 10%, compared to 39.8% in the United States.

I mean, just sayin'.

Like I said "it's not a war on drugs its a war on personal freedoms "

[Kane Gunlock]

I think we should all take part in a free study of some sort and summit our findings collectively.

Please ...legalize it !!! =)

Oh and I second that

[Nadir]

Oh, and one last closing statement... Do you know what the most liberal country in Europe is when it comes to drugs? It's not the Netherlands. It's Portugal.

After decriminalizing all hard drugs in 2001, Portugal's drug use among teens plummeted, the rate of new HIV infections caused by shared needles dropped considerably, and more than twice as many drug users sought treatment for their addictions. Not to mention, the lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 over in Portugal is now at 10%, compared to 39.8% in the United States.

I mean, just sayin'.

Perhaps those statistics at the end should be coupled with relative stress levels, too - if the American life is more stressful then I can see those percentages staying even, or perhaps rising after legalisation.

[Sabby]

I'm speaking as the only person I know in my age group that doesn't do a drug of any sort, and most of my friends, including my brother, are potheads if ever you saw one.

From the little reading I've done, and my (often baffling and hilarious) experienced around stoned individuals, its banning is really an over reaction. Booze and smokes are more harmful. I can't stand the stench of a bong (I gag and water at the eyes) but I can't stand the taste of beer and the stench of tobacco either.

What I always end up asking myself is this... is it still illegal because of its demonizing, or because no one who's Pro-Pot can seem to organize a proper movement for more then 20 minutes without checking out their hands? xD

[Doomsday]

Hey... I don't do pot either. Last time I did was about a year ago, and I have no designs to smoke any time soon. :P

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Mainly the reason marijuana is not legal is because there is no real reason to make it legal.  The only real viable reason is to legalize the substance and put a vice tax on it in order to generate revenue.  That argument isn’t really enough to overcome tradition.  Eventually though marijuana will be legalized as it becomes more decriminalized with passing generations.  These arguments may be tossed up as reasons for its legalization, but in truth it’s the simple sway of public opinion.  Marijuana has slowly been growing more accepted among the general population over the past few generations.

[Nadir]

Making it legal would take a lot of money away from drug barons and the like. Making it legal would ease the strain arresting potheads would put on the legal system and there would be big saving by the government for not having to care for them while they were in the system.

The American government could make so much money through taxing it, the only real reason why they haven't legalised it is because they are getting something personal on the side in exchange for suppressing it. *shrugs*

Edit - and saying the drug is more accepted in later generations is ridiculous. It's only been the last three generations that have thought it was wrong. Up until 1916 you could by cocaine from Harrods.

[Doomsday]

Mainly the reason marijuana is not legal is because there is no real reason to make it legal.  The only real viable reason is to legalize the substance and put a vice tax on it in order to generate revenue.  That argument isn’t really enough to overcome tradition.  Eventually though marijuana will be legalized as it becomes more decriminalized with passing generations.  These arguments may be tossed up as reasons for its legalization, but in truth it’s the simple sway of public opinion.  Marijuana has slowly been growing more accepted among the general population over the past few generations.

It seems that you're arguing in favor of capitalism, in stead of liberty. Keeping it illegal because it's not doing you any good is not justification for keeping it illegal.

And as Eden said, the 'tradition' you speak of is very young. It would die quickly, I bet.

[Rora]

First off let me say that no I do not any way do drugs and this includes smoking pot. That being said I am definitely all for the legalization of marijuana. Almost everyone I know smokes or is in some way involved in marijuana, which has many medical advantages. Some of which are:
*ease of arthritis, body aches, headaches, migraine, chronic pain, menstrual cramps,etc...
*helps dull pain for people with AIDS, cancer of every kind, etc...all in regards to treatment
*helps fix chemical imbalances such as bipolarism, schizophrenia, ADD, ADHD, etc...
*cachexia, spasms, epilepsy, multiple sclerosis, etc...
Mariajuana also has many other economic purposes as well:
*it can be used as a gas substance instead of oil
*is easy to grow and has a wide market of interest
*can be used to create clothes, textiles, cosmetics, foodstuffs, insulation, paints, and animal feed, not to mention it is environmentally friendly. Not to mention the fact that marijuana use in and of itself is not any more dangerous then lighting up a cigarette. I am adamantly against drugs of any kind, however, I do feel as though marijuana cannot be considered a drug if the use of cigarettes is not considered to be drug use. The U.S spends more money a year fighting marijuana then any other drug and I believe that this is senseless because it is the least of the world's problems in connections to dangerous drugs.

[Moreth]

Unfortunately, there are too many careers and reputations tied up with keeping it illegal. Don't fool yourselves either, there is a great deal of money involved with arresting people and putting them through the corrections system. I don't think we will ever see it legalized in our generation. Wish it was different.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Arguing for Capitalism?  Odd since I did not make an argument.  Someone asked why marijuana was not currently legal with these arguments being presented.  I responded that the arguments being presented were “shaky” at best and would be unable to overcome tradition.  Perhaps tradition was the wrong word where precedent should have been used.  Once something is a law or legal precedent, then it becomes a lot harder to overcome.  Compelling reason and/or evidence plus public opinion are needed in order to overturn the decision.

Also arguing for capitalism does not mean someone is not arguing for liberty.  A few could make the argument that capitalism is very much an advocate of liberty.  The tactic you’re employing is similar to people that tack “communist” to everything they don’t like.  Negative connotations are not required here.

As for removing money from drug barons, the same could be said for legalizing any number of substances.  Meth to deflate the income of biker gangs, cocaine and heroin to fight the terrorists (or insert random bad guy), or open the doors to controlled substances to drive the price of pharmaceuticals down.  The argument holds little water because the logic is simply make it legal so we don’t have to spend money fighting against it. 

Do note that I never said the tradition is long standing and that I did say that as generations follow, marijuana would likely become legal.  As for it being a ridiculous statement, once a generation bans the drug and subsequent ones begin to feel less strongly about the ban then it is a valid statement.  There is a downward trend in the desire for marijuana to be illegal, hence subsequent generations.

The medicinal argument is always humorous, because most of the people pushing for legalization have no intention of using medicinal properties.  Conclusively, so far as I am aware, marijuana was found to be effective in relieving nausea of cancer patients undergoing radiation therapy.  Cancer patients do have access to a pill version of marijuana as do many others suffering from illnesses relieved by the medication.  Many of the ones listed though are inconclusive and/or associative.  Years are spent conducting clinical trials on a single medication for a specific illness, so I doubt marijuana was studied on all such conditions.  Keep in mind that alcohol was one time considered a miracle elixir to cure many ills and indeed seemed to have such properties. 

[Doomsday]

medicinal argument is always humorous, because most of the people pushing for legalization have no intention of using medicinal properties.  Conclusively, so far as I am aware, marijuana was found to be effective in relieving nausea of cancer patients undergoing radiation therapy.  Cancer patients do have access to a pill version of marijuana as do many others suffering from illnesses relieved by the medication.  Many of the ones listed though are inconclusive and/or associative.  Years are spent conducting clinical trials on a single medication for a specific illness, so I doubt marijuana was studied on all such conditions.  Keep in mind that alcohol was one time considered a miracle elixir to cure many ills and indeed seemed to have such properties.

This is laughable at best and offensive at worst. https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=61581.msg2774729#msg2774729 Third paragraph.

[Zeitgeist]

I'd like to reiterate. Careful what you wish for. Just because it is legalized doesn't mean its going to be one big smoke up party. The government will tax, regulate and control it. Is that what we really want?

So instead of getting hit for a petty misdemeanor and fine, you'll go to jail for tax evasion along side Al Capone. Yeah, you can set up some common sense rules. But by definition committed pot smokers break the rules, its largely a counter culture mindset.

I recognize there are medicinal values, I recognize its pretty much harmless, but I think it is a bit naive to think that just because you legalize it will mean you'll have complete freedom to use, distribute and sell without the government getting their hands in it.

[Trieste]

So, er, this thread seems to be losing its mellow. It needs to hang on to that. :)

[Kane Gunlock]

So, er, this thread seems to be losing its mellow. It needs to hang on to that. :)

Indeed loosen up folks love each other smoke up or if thats not your thing act like your high lets have good time

[Pumpkin Seeds]

If people had a desire to see patients benefit from medicinal marijuana, then they would press for marijuana begin accepted as a controlled substance.  Making it legal to the public is far more difficult to accomplish so by doing so a person is simply making it more improbable for patients to receive that help.  Therefore, the argument for full legalization based on medicinal purposes makes no sense. 

As for your glaucoma, I’m sorry for your condition.  That does not make my statement laughable nor offensive though.  Your condition would benefit more from public insurance or free medical care, not legalizing marijuana.

[Serephino]

I think that any arguments made against not legalizing marijuana could also be said for alcohol and cigarettes.  I myself don't use it, but I know a few people that do.  Like anything else, it's all about how you use it.  I have a friend that smokes it once in a while with friends and hasn't really suffered any major negative effects. 

On the other hand, I know some serious pot heads.  They use it as a crutch to escape from life.  They don't have any ambition to do anything, they just want to sit and smoke pot all day.  That's bad, but again, some people, including the ones I'm talking about here, use alcohol to escape from their problems.

I'm not hugely against legalizing it.  I know there will be people out there who would abuse it, but anything can be abused, including over the counter meds. 

And as Rora said, hemp can be used for many other things besides smoking it.  I once got curious and did a little research.  The marijuana you smoke has a high level of THC because they're unfertilized female plants.  Hemp that is grown commercially and not separated does not contain enough of the chemical to get you high, and there are so many things that can be done with it...  Even if you're against using it as a drug, it makes absolutely no sense to ban hemp period.

[auroraChloe]

Unlike inebriation you loose cognitive function because the setting around you changes to something its not. With inebriation you still retain cognitive functions no matter how drunk you are but they are limited by the amount of alcohol in your bloodstream. 

"Although usually grouped with other hallucinogens, marijuana rarely causes hallucinations...  "  (reference)


have you ever been stoned?  have you ever been drunk? 
i have been both and believe me, cognitive function while under the influence of alcohol is a LOT more impaired. 


and really....  drunk drivers kill more people than stoned drivers ever thought of. 

it won't be legalized for a long time yet.  big tobacco and alcohol don't want to be loosing their profits now.  it IS all about the benjamin$

at the very least it should be decriminalized.  smoking a joint is a far cry from axe murderer. 

(and damn this thread moves fast !)

[Trieste]

Oh, that reminds me.

Brandon, caffeine causes hallucinations and delusions, also. And yet...

[Brandon]

I realize it's an anecdote, and I state just as much, so take it for what its' worth. Also, that part where you said there were no long-term studies of marijuana on the human body... Well... Yeah. "Overall, by comparison with other drugs used mainly for ‘recreational’ purposes, cannabis could be rated to be a relatively safe drug." According to Oxford Pharmacology, so take it for what its' worth :P

Thats a long term study, not life long which is what I was talking about.

You say "The reason why laws are in place is because someone was doing something they shouldn't have done". Who gets to decide what is something 'they shouldn't have done'? Who gets that arbitrary power, and who decides that it's right? Are you implying that marijuana is bad because it's illegal? And that it's illegal because it's bad?

I like how you imply that legalizing marijuana means absolute chaos and anarchy. Yeah. I too am a fan of taking an absolute worst case scenario and even then blowing it way out of proportion.

Then you say "What I'm saying here is to much of anything can be bad for you and for our society". I certainly can't argue with that. Too much water, and you drown or suffer from water poisoning (yes, this actually does happen). Too much oxygen and you'll suffocate. Moderation is key, but do you think everyone who smokes marijuana is automatically using a pound of the stuff per day? You assume that people will not be able to moderate themselves and thus need the government to protect them. Pretty weak, I think.

I agree that if it does become legalized, it will be taxed. Not to say I think it should be; I have no thoughts on that as of right now. But I do believe it would be.

Oh, and one last closing statement... Do you know what the most liberal country in Europe is when it comes to drugs? It's not the Netherlands. It's Portugal.

After decriminalizing all hard drugs in 2001, Portugal's drug use among teens plummeted, the rate of new HIV infections caused by shared needles dropped considerably, and more than twice as many drug users sought treatment for their addictions. Not to mention, the lifetime marijuana use in people over 15 over in Portugal is now at 10%, compared to 39.8% in the United States.

I mean, just sayin'.

I think you need to go back, reread what I said and think about it before you post again because you're taking a lot of what I said out of context and I dont like that. I never said that legalization of marijuana would cause anarchy in our society. I never said that people couldnt moderate what they took into their bodies.

I know people want to keep the mellow but I really hate it when someone puts words into my mouth

[Rider of Wind]

   I try really hard not to respond to people's actual points because usually my brain blurs out at about two sentences into a paragraph and I fail to cognitively figure out what the heck their points even -are-. >.<

  On a side note, there's a very good reason I've never tried the Happy Greens. The smell makes me twitchy, like 3 cups of coffee kind of twitchy. I once used a friend's hemp lotion without realizing what it was and about reduced myself to clawing at the things crawling under my skin before I figured out I needed to wash my hands...so yeah, no funtimes for Rider.

  Also, it is my opinion that I should be the Grand Poobah Administrator Regulator of Cannabis when it gets legalized. Perhaps I need to be cryogenically frozen until that time occurs, but I am taking applications for underlings.  O8)

[Inkidu]

If they legalize pot I won't be able to find a freaking bag of Cheetos (The fact that this is in the Firefox spellchecker scares me a little.) in any state bordering my own.

[Trieste]

Or Funyuns.

[Inkidu]

Or Funyuns.

I'm not joking, I went to a college that just got a small convenience store on campus. Five guys and one young lady came in fully baked and that was the best night of business that store ever saw.

[Sabby]

If they legalize pot I won't be able to find a freaking bag of Cheetos (The fact that this is in the Firefox spellchecker scares me a little.) in any state bordering my own.

Ages ago, I got off work, went straight to a backyard party, was absolutely ravenous with hunger... first thing I saw was the snack table. Hell yeah! Oh, wait, bags empty... bowls empty... nothing there... nothing here... what the hell? Theres just packets!

Then I looked around and noticed everyone was high.

"Dude, you okay?" "Yeah, just trying to find a bag of Dorito's in a pot then thats already in full swing... how are you?"

[Inkidu]

Ages ago, I got off work, went straight to a backyard party, was absolutely ravenous with hunger... first thing I saw was the snack table. Hell yeah! Oh, wait, bags empty... bowls empty... nothing there... nothing here... what the hell? Theres just packets!

Then I looked around and noticed everyone was high.

"Dude, you okay?" "Yeah, just trying to find a bag of Dorito's in a pot then thats already in full swing... how are you?"

It's like something out of the Twilight Zone.

[Doomsday]

As for your glaucoma, I’m sorry for your condition.  That does not make my statement laughable nor offensive though.  Your condition would benefit more from public insurance or free medical care, not legalizing marijuana.

Actually marijuana is just as effective as Argon Laser Surgery and a boatload cheaper.

[Sabby]

Not to mention 'crippling glucoma' is a very common excuse for scoring a bag of weed. So common that I only ever hear it as a joke now.

[Doomsday]

Unfortunately for people who actually have glaucoma, people think it doesn't actually exists  -_-

I mean, I'm a huge marijuana legalization advocate and I've used marijuana exactly 3 times in my life. I don't want it to get high.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Marijuana actually isn't any more effective than the medications already listed for glaucoma.  People that want marijuana legalized simply list the effects on the intraocular pressure as a reason without understanding that medications are already on the market to treat those symptoms.  Marijuana's effect is also barely understood in regard to how it reduces the IOP, so the treatment is not known to be safe.  One of the theories about how the IOP is decreased is a reduction in blood pressure to the optic nerve, which could further deprive an already starving body system of nutrients.

"Based on reviews by the National Eye Institute (NEI) and the Institute of Medicine and on available scientific evidence, the Task Force on Complementary Therapies believes that no scientific evidence has been found that demonstrates increased benefits and/or diminished risks of marijuana use to treat glaucoma compared with the wide variety of pharmaceutical agents now available." - http://www.aao.org/eyecare/treatment/alternative-therapies/marijuana-glaucoma.cfm

"Marijuana — There are 400 different chemicals in marijuana, some of which may be damaging. Moderately long-term studies have shown that cannabis has no proven effect on glaucoma. When ingested, marijuana does produce a 20 percent decrease in intraocular pressure; however, the decrease in pressure is only for a short period of time. In order to be effective as a medication, it would need to be taken many times a day. Side effects of this would be loss of concentration and coordination, and risk of emphysema and lung cancer. Topical use has shown no effect in studies to date, but cannabis derivatives are currently being studied in laboratory tests to determine if they may be effective. Much more work is needed to determine if cannabis derivatives will have a proven effect in glaucoma treatment." - http://www.glaucoma.org/treating/update_on_alter.php

http://www.agingeye.net/glaucoma/Marijuana.pdf

[Doomsday]

"Based on reviews by the National Eye Institute (NEI) and the Institute of Medicine and on available scientific evidence, the Task Force on Complementary Therapies believes that no scientific evidence has been found that demonstrates increased benefits and/or diminished risks of marijuana use to treat glaucoma compared with the wide variety of pharmaceutical agents now available." - http://www.aao.org/eyecare/treatment/alternative-therapies/marijuana-glaucoma.cfm

So basically they're saying that marijuana is about as effective as all legal treatments (which they do not list, nor do I see any in the study). Intriguing.

Putting any medicinal effects aside, do you believe marijuana should continue to be criminalized and why?

[Trieste]

* Trieste finds herself wondering who funds the National Eye Institute and if they are linked back to oh, say, a pharmaceutical company.

[Oniya]

* Trieste finds herself wondering who funds the National Eye Institute and if they are linked back to oh, say, a pharmaceutical company.

http://www.nei.nih.gov/ 

Apparently a branch of the National Institute of Health.

[Trieste]

Yes, but that doesn't mean they don't get their grants from somewhere in pharma. It really depends on who would pay for studies on weed.

I'm not saying they are, but it seemed like a good question to ask.

* Trieste will have to research it later if she has the time.

[auroraChloe]

. It really depends on who would pay for studies on weed.

* Trieste will have to research it later if she has the time.

this guy did his own study....     

[Pumpkin Seeds]

That would be why I also included articles from two other sources Trieste.  A person could argue repeatedly that the claims are skewed one way or another, but then what is the point of providing any sources or evidence.  Far as I remember the staff of Elliquiy supports the use of evidence in the politics and religion debates.  So much as I am aware the National Eye Institute, the Institute of Medicine, the Glaucoma Foundation for Research and the American Academy of Ophthalmology are reputable organizations.

The conclusion states that marijuana is not any more effective than what is being used for glaucoma and the side effects are not less than what is already given.  This does not mean it is as effective.  Twisting the words around does not make them equal one another.  Looking at the articles a person can see that marijuana gives 3-4 hours of relief, but the amounts required to achieve any lasting relief or therapeutic regiment would incur unhealthy side effects.

In general I do not agree with how the prison system is managed.  So I would say that drug offenses should not be done with such heavy prison time.  Though in a time when we, as a society, are demonizing alcohol and cigarettes there is some absurdity in trying to introduce marijuana as well.  At a time when we are fighting obesity, there is a sadness to fighting for a drug whose praised side effect is laziness and eating massive quantities of junk food.

[Nadir]

So, weed as a few health benefits - a relaxant, I'm assuming - but the side effects can be life-altering if too much is taken.

Okay, I get that.

But, take something that is legal right now - tobacco, alcohol, those fiddly little E numbers America is so fond of - they have life altering side effects... do they have any health benefits? I'm genuinely curious.   

[Trieste]

those fiddly little E numbers America is so fond of

Hunh?

[Kotah]

I am all for the legalization, especially considering the medical uses of pot. Those seriously cannot be under written. MS is the biggest one that I have personally seen. I, once, had a patient move locations from a place where he could use pot, to a facility I worked at. His usage at his last facility had not only allowed him to sit in a wheel chair (which is a big deal when you have to lay on your back unable to move, period.) I made it a whole three months, where his health deteriorated at an alarming rate, before we were able to get him sent back to where he had been so he could continue his past therapy.  I've also had patients that I would love to give it to them. Help them with the pain. Help them with their disease and/or disorder.

At the same time, I am fearful of mass legalization of pot. I am somewhat fearful of what may happen if one of the people I work with go out and smoke a joint, legally of course, and then returns and we have to call a code on someone. O.O! However, my only problem with the legalization is simply having it in workplaces.

[Oniya]

There have been some studies (citation:  http://www.healthcastle.com/redwine-heart.shtml)  showing that red wine in particular and in moderation is beneficial to the heart - the key word being moderation.  This has, of course, led to the idea of red wine and dark chocolate (also touted for anti-oxidants) as the 'perfect' Valentines gift.

I'm unaware of anything showing any benefits to smoking tobacco.

Slight correction.  For amusement, I Googled 'benefits of tobacco', and the first page that popped up had this quote:

The benefits of tobacco can be seen in its natural production of a neurotoxin named: alkaloid nicotine. Which this neurotoxin is combined with the other ingredients used in pesticides, it is quite effective for the eradication and control of pests.

[Nadir]

Hunh?

Food additives - the stuff used to colour, preserve, flavour, thicken - complex chemicals that have no right being consumed.

[Kane Gunlock]

one of my fear is the drug cartels are the ones keeping it illegal think about it if it becomes legal they lose a lot of business

[Serephino]

I remember a discussion like this in one of the groups I belong to.  The person who started had something... MS I think it was... and said marijuana was the only think that helped with the pain.  It was a while ago so I can't remember the details, but what her doctor was prescribing wasn't helping.  She was very frustrated with the whole thing and wanted it legalized so she didn't have to break the law to get some relief.

I'm not a big fan of studies for many reasons.  For one, they tend to find in favor of whoever is funding the study as Trieste pointed out.  Statistics can be twisted to make the results say whatever you want.  I was taught that in high school.

Two, people don't fit into a box.  If we did, then we'd only need one medication for everyone with depression because it would work for everybody.  But in reality land there are several and each person needs to find the right one with the right dosage through trial and error.  Medical studies are done with just a small sampling of people.  Just because there wasn't much of a difference in those study groups doesn't mean there aren't people out there who would truly be helped by medical marijuana. 

I can remember when a shrink I was seeing thought she had the perfect drug for me.  It was fairly new and wasn't supposed to have any side effects.  The people who participated in the studies didn't suffer from any of the usual side effects...  And yet, even though I was given a small dose I still ended up loopy and high strung just like every other pill I tried.  When I was a kid caffeine used to make me sleepy.  When my dad was alive his doctors had to give him drugs that did the opposite of what he needed it for because that was how his body reacted.

My point is that each person is different.  If I were to use medical marijuana I wouldn't need several doses a day because I metabolize things slowly, and I'm very sensitive so I don't need as much.  When I had my gallbladder out I told the Anesthesiologist I was sensitive so she gave me a light dose and I was completely out in 3 seconds.  The surgeon told my mom that in his twenty some years of practice he'd never seen anyone go under that fast. 

It really should be up to the doctors and the patients.  That lady in one of my groups needed it because it was the only thing that gave her relief.  There are probably other people out there just like her.  Why deny them relief? 

[Jude]

I still don't think I've seen one convincing argument as to why we should be allowed to protect people from themselves.  It doesn't matter what the pros and cons are in relation to health, taking away people's choices in order to make their life better if it only directly affects them (which is debatable, though I don't think it is convincingly), then drug prohibition is parenting.  I'm sure we're all against the government treating citizens like children.

Debating whether or not potsmokers have a negative effect on other people requires massive leaps in logic in order to establish any sort of negative effects.  Sure you can make the friends and family argument, but then anything which negatively effects the individual should be banned by that logic because anytime one of your friends or family members is negatively impacted it effects you.

Even if we accept that it's okay to tell people what to do when they're only affecting themselves, to be completely honest about the question of legalization drugs you not only need to consider the effects of the drug, but you also need to consider the sort of effects it being legal and illegal have/would have.  It's not as simple as "is it good for you."

[Zeitgeist]

I still don't think I've seen one convincing argument as to why we should be allowed to protect people from themselves.

And I can't understand why people think just because its legalized, it will be a free for all.

[Kane Gunlock]

And I can't understand why people think just because its legalized, it will be a free for all.

I can you it's all about location location location

[Senti]

Ok I really have only skim read most of this, and am joining the discussion rather late. I used to be a smoker as well as one of the mushroom people and many other things besides, (Strangely at the time Mushrooms were legal as long as they were not prepared...this was in the UK…) but I digress.

First I think the whole drugs issue is a very grey area at least for me, and my own experiences. I have seen both the good and rather less pleasant side of even cannabis. Though the same can be said for legal drugs like Alcohol, nicotine, and even prescription drugs.

As I is I no longer smoke cannabis or even nicotine I have a glass of wine most night but that’s about. My partner however still smoks cannabis, he keeps it in a Tupperware tub in the medicine cabinet which makes me laugh, also he wont have nicotine with it, and smokes it outside …rain or shine as we have kids.

He holds down a decent job, is a great father and I see no issue with him smoking it, personally I would prefer that than him going off to the pub. Many of our friends smoke and most of them are very ordinary folks that hold down good jobs have kids and to all intense and purposes are ‘normal’ folks.

I think as well as legalisation  there also has to be education. A couple of our friends with teenagers have suggested that if their kids want to talk about drugs then to come to my partner or I. At least we will be honest. Instead of demonising these things, take the glamour out of it.

As it is we are looking into cannabis and how it works with CP for my daughter, because be sure if it will help her legal or not we will get it for her.

[Black Howling]

I used to smoke when I was a teenager, and have to say that the medical benefits are somewhat of a mute point. Most of the benefits can be derived from other sources, and usually ones that have a lesser chance of side-effects. Those that can't are MS, and Cancer; which I can attest that if it is legalized for medicinal purposes it will be a controlled substance, thus still not available for recreational use. [Sorry guys...]

Fact be I used a lot of drugs when I was teenager, and I have to say that I don't support any of them. All, including Nicotine, have an affect on coordination and reaction time. Cigarettes are kept legal, if demonised, for the fact that Nicotine isn't classified as a drug. It's considered a 'smooth relaxant', and while it does still go under aphrodisiacs, it's still no more controlled than most ingested sensitivity enhancements in the fact that you have to be of age to purchase them.

Now that I clarified a few things I'll bring up another aspect. To legalize it for recreational use would mean we would have to install another agency to control it, or take out those specifically designed to target offenders. This can't go to the ATF, for they already have their hands full with what is already on their plate. Furthering this is the money that would have to be spent taxing, and controlling it which wouldn't even begin to come back to the government until 30 years after legalization.

America cannot afford to legalize cannabis, at-least not in their current state. This speech is not to say that I am against legalization, I'm just stating the facts. Even if the people in charge will agree, the problems it will incur afterward will keep their hands at bay. I would actually like to see it legalized on the same level as alcohol, not for personal use, but merely as a means to cut down the drug dealers sources of income. I've seen too many scathe by on the harm of others through drugs in general.       

[auroraChloe]

Cigarettes are kept legal, if demonised, for the fact that Nicotine isn't classified as a drug.


America cannot afford to legalize cannabis, at-least not in their current state.

i am just too cynical to not smile at this... if only this were true.   

in this 2000 article, even philip morris admits nicotine is a drug though still hedge they're bets on what kind.  i didn't find 'smooth relaxant' in there any where. (seriously, i googled nicotine and 'smooth relaxant' and exactly one result came up from a forum talking about an advertising campaign.) 

cigarettes are kept legal because of the amount of money big tobacco puts into lobbying washington dc.  There is no way big tobacco is going to loose their profit.  Don't kid yourself; they have and would still continue to sell cigarettes to children if they could.  "the magical amount" is not a lie. 

and america can not afford to keep criminalizing the average joint smoker.  most of them have steady jobs and all that, they smoke like other people drink 5 o'clock martinis (and alcohol is also a drug, as is caffeine.)  keeping these people in jail is more expensive than their crime is worth.  it's insane. 

and as far as findings of 'studies'.  how many things have been studied and found to be good / helpful for us then years later another study reverses that.  i take such studies with a grain of salt. 


(i'd be happy to see a more current article on nicotine's 'drug classification'.)

[Jude]

Now that I clarified a few things I'll bring up another aspect. To legalize it for recreational use would mean we would have to install another agency to control it, or take out those specifically designed to target offenders. This can't go to the ATF, for they already have their hands full with what is already on their plate. Furthering this is the money that would have to be spent taxing, and controlling it which wouldn't even begin to come back to the government until 30 years after legalization.

America cannot afford to legalize cannabis, at-least not in their current state. This speech is not to say that I am against legalization, I'm just stating the facts. Even if the people in charge will agree, the problems it will incur afterward will keep their hands at bay. I would actually like to see it legalized on the same level as alcohol, not for personal use, but merely as a means to cut down the drug dealers sources of income. I've seen too many scathe by on the harm of others through drugs in general.

The money spent taxing it?  Taxing it makes money.  Even if there was an initial cost at setting up the regulations and such, we're spending a ridiculous amount of money in the war on drugs which we would no longer have to spend if it was legal.  It would definitely be a money saver.

[Oniya]

i am just too cynical to not smile at this... if only this were true.   

(i'd be happy to see a more current article on nicotine's 'drug classification'.)

Nicotine crosses the blood-brain barrier, which classifies it as a psychoactive drug.  Chemically, it is a cholinergic drug, which means that it mimics or enhances the affects of Acetylcholine (ACh) in the nervous system.  At this point, I'm getting a little beyond my knowledge base, though.  Before the article on ACh started looking like Greek (or Latin?), I saw something about ACh stimulating production of epinephrine and norephinephrine, the latter of which I've heard of in reference to treatment of ADHD, which might explain why some people I know with that problem hit the cigs.

[Trieste]

If I remember correctly: Epinephrine and Norephinephrine are essentially in charge of fight or flight. Epinephrine (also known as adrenaline) is the jumpy chemical that gets your heart pounding and your muscles keyed and your liver slamming into gear and and and ... etc. Norephinephrine makes you hyperaware, tends to focus your body on the task at hand. Epinephrine is more flighty, norephrinephrine is more fighty - to put it very simply.

Cigs do both. They make you jittery. They are stimulants. But it becomes a focused sort of jitters, and the act of smoking - regulating your breathing - is also calming.

[Will]

Yeah, the only reason that nicotine might feel like a 'smooth relaxant' is because your body is getting the chemical it craves, and thus it relaxes.  I haven't smoked in years (so expensive!), but I remember the feeling well.

I go through the same thing with coffee now; I would have to drink several cups to actually get jounced and jumpy on the stuff.  Sometimes I drink a cup to help me go to bed.  Caffeine is definitely a stimulant, right?  But in normal doses all it does is calm my nerves and ease my brain.

[auroraChloe]

I go through the same thing with coffee now; I would have to drink several cups to actually get jounced and jumpy on the stuff.  Sometimes I drink a cup to help me go to bed.  Caffeine is definitely a stimulant, right?  But in normal doses all it does is calm my nerves and ease my brain. 

i am pretty sure nicotine and caffeine are physically addictive.  where are pot is not (though it is psychologically addictive) 

[Trieste]

Ahm.

Do you think something psychologically addictive is any less dangerous than something physically addictive? :)

[auroraChloe]

Ahm.

Do you think something psychologically addictive is any less dangerous than something physically addictive? :)

well there's a difference between a physical need and it being 'all in your head'.   :P
and danger itself is addictive for that matter. 

a whole mess of stuff is addictive...  exercise even (endorphin rush, anyone?)  thrill seeking is addictive (cliff jumping, etc etc...) 
there aren't laws against rock climbing and skydiving... 

(i know i've gone off on a bit of a tangent... and i'm not even stoned.   ha!)

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Quick point, while the two addictions may come about differently on a person there isn't much of a difference in the affects on that individual in terms of addictive behaviors, difficult in quitting the behavior and its affect on a person's life.

[Will]

There actually are some differences between physically and psychologically addictive substances.  Trying to quit weed is not in the least comparable to quitting cocaine, opiates, and even alcohol.  Cold sweats, terrible nausea, the list goes on... It's physically painful, to varying degrees.  Quitting weed is only difficult because of all the empty space it tends to leave in one's life.

[auroraChloe]

Quitting weed is only difficult because of all the empty space it tends to leave in one's life.

... a missing the smoke induced epiphanies.   

[Will]

Epiphanies is a strong word. >.>

[Senti]

I do agree with the point about addiction, that anything can be, whether it be mental or physical it’s still an addiction. I mean how many here are ‘addicted’ to E. For example how many folks might take a sick day…be late for work or miss a class because they want to finish a post or chat on the SB. How many folk miss sleep?  Same goes for games like WOW and the like. How many cant function without a cup of coffee and make a joke of it? Addiction is addiction. However we all make choices in our lives and when we are adult we need to make our own choices and deal with the consequences.

However that was not my only point, I am not sure just how it works in the US but I am aware it’s highly unlikely that most sensible smokers will find any trouble if they are caught with cannabis. A caution maybe and having ones weed taken from you.

Sometimes I think the whole legalisation is a moot point I mean if one is creating enough noise/trouble to bring the police around then one should expect the trouble, whether one is smoking or not. A quiet and social smoke is hardly going to attract attention. Personally I don’t like to see folks drunk or drinking in the street( drinking in the street is illegal in many town centers now and I agree with that) as much as I don’t like to watch people smoking in the street.

In my opinion I have no issue with cannabis being legalised but certainly in the UK I can’t see it making that much difference in the scheme of things. However if it is I might suggest that there comes with it, a responsibility of the user, the same as I would suggest for other ‘legal drugs…’ Again I will say it’s about maturity and education.


(Sorry if I went off point)

[Will]

The trouble one can find for having/selling weed in America is dependent on where one lives.  Some places I know of do just take your stuff and ticket you, but around here, you go to jail.  You have to pay court costs, fines, and any number of other things.  So yeah, it does get kind of severe.

[Scribbles]

I do agree with the point about addiction, that anything can be, whether it be mental or physical it’s still an addiction. I mean how many here are ‘addicted’ to E. For example how many folks might take a sick day…be late for work or miss a class because they want to finish a post or chat on the SB.

Don't you judge me! I can stop whenever I want!

>_>

<_<

I mean... don't be silly.  ;)

The trouble one can find for having/selling weed in America is dependent on where one lives.  Some places I know of do just take your stuff and ticket you, but around here, you go to jail.  You have to pay court costs, fines, and any number of other things.  So yeah, it does get kind of severe.

Some of the places I know they simply "confiscated" it... No ticket, court papers, or anything.

[Will]

Still, I bet the penalties for distributing are much more severe.

[Scribbles]

Still, I bet the penalties for distributing are much more severe.

True, although it's still pretty annoying for the cops to catch distributors and actually enact those penalties. Beside the miles of red tape to cut through they also have to deal with scum that know more about slipping past the law and utilizing legal loopholes than they should. Of course, the places I have in mind are pretty horrible. Things are likely a lot more stable in America and the police are probably that much more efficient too. I bet restricting weed is still hitting the taxpayer hard however.

[Muninn]

I'm very curious about hemp-based food products.  I hear it is pretty nutritional and supposed to taste pretty nom.

[auroraChloe]

I'm very curious about hemp-based food products.  I hear it is pretty nutritional and supposed to taste pretty nom. 

i don't know about food specifically, but hemp is like a miracle plant.  anything can be made with it - paper, clothes, cars! (j/k about the cars)  it is cheap and easily grown, so why is it illegal (hemp is NOT the same as marijuana) legal hemp would cut into some serious profit for cotton and what ever the hell else can be made with it.  i am telling you, it always comes down to profit margin. 

[Kotah]

About addiction: It takes 4 days (approx  90-100 hours) for your body to get over an addiction.  It can take weeks to get over a psychological addiction.

[auroraChloe]

About addiction: It takes 4 days (approx  90-100 hours) for your body to get over an addiction.  It can take weeks to get over a psychological addiction.

ask an addict if they ever 'get over it'

[Oniya]

i don't know about food specifically, but hemp is like a miracle plant.  anything can be made with it - paper, clothes, cars! (j/k about the cars)  it is cheap and easily grown, so why is it illegal (hemp is NOT the same as marijuana) legal hemp would cut into some serious profit for cotton and what ever the hell else can be made with it.  i am telling you, it always comes down to profit margin.

One thing I've heard is that the big Southern plantation-holders were the ones that really pushed the lobby to ban hemp.  Prior to the establishment of cotton as a cash crop, hemp was actually used in many of the ways you describe (hemp rope was fairly common, in fact.)

[mannik]

i don't know about food specifically, but hemp is like a miracle plant.  anything can be made with it - paper, clothes, cars! (j/k about the cars)  it is cheap and easily grown, so why is it illegal (hemp is NOT the same as marijuana) legal hemp would cut into some serious profit for cotton and what ever the hell else can be made with it.  i am telling you, it always comes down to profit margin.

Actually, yes, cars can be made from hemp. In fact, the FIRST car was made from hemp.....

History of Weed

[auroraChloe]

Actually, yes, cars can be made from hemp. In fact, the FIRST car was made from hemp.....
  ]History of Weed[

thanks! 

[Will]

And, of course, there's the van from Up In Smoke.

[mannik]

"You going to finish that hot dog?"

[Kane Gunlock]

I love weed it never lies to me ,never tells me to kill my self, never steal's from me ,just says sit there and be happy

[mannik]

Found an interesting news report I though you all would enjoy.

Kid Uses Marijuana To Save His Life


also, more on building cars and buildings with hemp...

Uses for Hemp

[TheVillain]

Don't know if it's been said before, but in the US the only real reason the Weed is Illegal and Alcohol isn't is that Hemp is a much more flexible substance.

Seriously, in the 30's a billionaire named William Randolph Hearst sank a large amount of his money into Wood Pulp Paper, then discovered that Hemp-based Paper was just as durable, just as flexible, and cost about a third of what Wood Pulp did to process. So he called some buddies in the Senate.

Really, that's the only reason Weed is Illegal while Beer isn't.

(And in WRH's defense, he was also the one of the strongest anti-Nazi businessmen in America at the time- and the first to have the balls to show what exactly was happening to people during the Holocaust in the newspapers he owned.)

(Does it count as Godwin's Law when it's against your own position?)

[Kane Gunlock]

good god is that fucked up in soooooooo many ways will that's in the past and even if it was a crooked thing to do we should that should still be a prime example for why it should be legalized

[Kate]

legalise all drugs thus you can regulate its production (pro-hibition just makes unregulared production and profits in the hands of the wrong people) then tax it.

[Doomsday]

And, of course, there's the van from Up In Smoke.

The first thing I thought of when I heard 'cars' and 'weed'.

[Inkidu]

I say legalize all drugs and make them uber cheap. A dime bag is really a dime. Then natural selection will take its course and drugs won't be a problem, or at least, as big a one.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Legalizing all drugs is like handing out loaded guns in daycare centers.

[Doomsday]

Legalizing all drugs is like handing out loaded guns in daycare centers.

Whatever you say, Mr. Beck.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

If indeed that is Mr. Beck's stance then it remains his most insightful one.  When you have respect for medication and the harm they can do if not properly monitored and given in a controlled enviroment, then you might understand exactly what my statement means.  Till then, take into account that nurses spend most of their shift verifying medication and most of their education is spent learning what to look for when medications have bad reactions.  Also note that one of the main reasons we have an issue with antibiotics is that people do not listen to their doctors and take all of their antibiotics.  People manage to hurt themselves and others with over the counter medications on a routine basis.  I do not want to see what happens when they can pile on more serious ones.

[Kane Gunlock]

so the government should mind its own damn business ;D

[Will]

so the government should mind its own damn business ;D

Sadly, they get to decide what their business is.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Public health tends to be considered part of their buisness.  This is one area where they are obligated to step in and make restrictions.

[Will]

Yes, of course, but there has to be a line somewhere.  They don't regulate fatty foods and exercise, and I would consider that a public health issue when heart disease is as big a killer as it is.

What I'm saying, in part, is that they get to decide where that line is.  They decide what is a public health issue.

[Kane Gunlock]

they should try to inform in stead of regulate thats what I think the government should try doing instead of making all these laws make it so we can decide for are selfs weather or not we should smoke weed

[Mathim]

I think if people weren't so screwed up in the first place with dysfunctional families and the collective IQ of the human race wasn't declining as sharply as it seems to be, drugs wouldn't be an issue. As it is, people think their lives suck and take drugs to numb the pain. Or they are so shallow and stupid that they don't think they can enjoy things like parties and movies without them. Or they are so insecure about what others think about them that the take drugs just to be 'cool'.

While regulation and education are good in theory, the fact is people are just too uncomfortable with themselves and the world to stop taking drugs. We need a massive change in the social climate before anything can improve. All the current methods of prevention are doing is making people want to do more drugs because fear is added to the equation.

[Kane Gunlock]

in other words the system is increasingly irrelevant and it's time for a new one 

[Inkidu]

Yes, of course, but there has to be a line somewhere.  They don't regulate fatty foods and exercise, and I would consider that a public health issue when heart disease is as big a killer as it is.

What I'm saying, in part, is that they get to decide where that line is.  They decide what is a public health issue.

Fatty foods and exercise aren't typically seen as chemically addictive. 

[Will]

Neither is marijuana, or a host of other drugs.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

People's behavior tends to contradict the myth of marijuana not being addictive.

[Saerrael]

That's... you can't possibly believe that.

Pretty certain the point of view of Pumkin in this matter is rather clear.

Anyway. I rather refrain from further debate in this thread.
~peace~

[Jude]

Quick point, while the two addictions may come about differently on a person there isn't much of a difference in the affects on that individual in terms of addictive behaviors, difficult in quitting the behavior and its affect on a person's life.

That's simply not true.  Something that causes physical dependence can actually kill you during the withdrawal process, alcohol for instance.  Physical dependence is worse than other forms without a doubt.

[Noelle]

People's behavior tends to contradict the myth of marijuana not being addictive.

Anything in the world can be addictive. There are people addicted to sex, some of which could very well be on this website. This website is available on any major search engine. There are people addicted to exercise, addicted to eating, addicted to TV, and if you think those things haven't destroyed lives, you're dangerously short-sighted.

Marijuana is not inherently physically addicting the same way nicotine or heroin is -- but has addiction to marijuana been destructive to someone's lives and loved ones? I'm positive it has. But so has gambling. And sex. And food. People are addicted to caffeine; do you know someone who can't get up in the morning without a cup of coffee? People who obsessively check Facebook? E-mail?  Addiction is everywhere. It's time to start grounding the notion that addiction only happens to strung-out junkies on their last thread.

Equating it to handing a gun to a toddler is overblown and completely unrealistic and completely blown out of proportion. How do I know? Take a good look at Holland. Last time I walked through Amsterdam or Leiden, everything seemed pretty normal to me. Nobody was running around shooting each other or smoking a fat roach in the street and spouting inane banter. There were no wives and mothers bawling in the street because legalized marijuana ruined their family. I'm positive there are still cases of addiction where it's illegal (as is the case for alcohol and nicotine), but there are cases of addiction to everything. There will always be an exception -- just how large or significant that exception is is highly subjective. You hear about one horrific plane crash and forget about the thousands that take off and land safely every single day. For every case of addiction and destruction you hear, remember that you're missing out on stories of people who manage just fine, people who are under control and responsible users.


If anything, legalizing it would provide a wealth of knowledge and begin to promote a culture of conscious, responsible use -- as it is, we have a scare culture giving out the wrong information. In this thread alone, it was claimed that marijuana makes you hallucinate, which is...blatantly wrong. Nobody tells you alcohol or nicotine makes you see things and try to jump off a building and fly, why do you think that is? For one, we have enough personal experience available to draw from, but there is also ample information about both substances. Anybody who doesn't know in this day and age that nicotine isn't addictive or that driving drunk is incredibly dangerous has been living under a rock. People who are well-informed can make the best decision for themselves, that fact can hardly be disputed and sweeping things under the rug or distorting them for your own agenda is not good for the population.


By the way, look around you. I bet you you have encountered at least one person in your daily life who has been a marijuana user and you haven't had the slightest clue. I'm about to be a college graduate with two majors and a pretty promising future. I've seen both sides of the coin, I've seen people who are irresponsible as well as those who promote safe, conscious use. What have your interactions with actual drug users been like? I understand you don't have to be a murderer to know it's bad to kill people, but there is a whole world I have an inkling that you have no idea about.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I would like people to take note of the statements which were being said before I made the comment about a hand gun in the hands of daycare children.  The comments were pertaining to legalizing all drugs, not just marijuana.  My statement was not being made in reference to merely legalizing marijuana, but was made in response to the idea of legalizing a greater host of medications that people have no business obtaining without medical advice and counsel.  That is where my analogy of the gun in a daycare center becomes relevant. 

My statement is very true Jude in terms of a person facing the trials of overcoming that addiction.  Indeed a physical withdrawal can be lethal with alcohol, but that is not a barrier to overcoming that addiction.  Few people in AA meetings discuss how they would have quit earlier if it wasn’t for that physical withdrawal.  Most people in those meetings discuss the physical cravings along with the psychological cravings of wanting the alcohol.  The same goes for many addicts of other substances both physical and mental.  Indeed because something is a physical addiction there tends to be more resources for those people to get help rather than those that suffer from what people consider merely psychological.  Also alcohol is one of the few substances that can be potentially fatal during withdrawal.

Also in response to the statement about many other addictions.  This is true that many behaviors and lifestyles are addictive.  Yet I am curious as to how many food addicts there are compared to marijuana users.  I am curious as to the amount of sex addicts versus the number of marijuana users currently incarcerated or awaiting trial.  People enjoy flashing up the number of people in prison for marijuana use and/or possession, yet keep in mind these people choose to deal in a substance that they new carried penalties.  They are allowing this substance to interfere with their lives in a drastic fashion.  That is addiction.

Looking around me I also know there are cocaine users, pill poppers, alcoholics, smokers and a wide assortment of other people that I would never know their addiction or behaviors.  That doesn’t mean that cocaine use is suddenly ok or that it’s alright to down a bottle of vicodine. 

[Trieste]

Seems like a good spot to give this a lock, let people take a step back, etc.

It'll be unlocked in a day or two for further discussion.

[Noelle]

I would like people to take note of the statements which were being said before I made the comment about a hand gun in the hands of daycare children.  The comments were pertaining to legalizing all drugs, not just marijuana.  My statement was not being made in reference to merely legalizing marijuana, but was made in response to the idea of legalizing a greater host of medications that people have no business obtaining without medical advice and counsel.  That is where my analogy of the gun in a daycare center becomes relevant.

Cocaine is made legal right now. Are you going to go out and try it? I'm not. HOLLAND. I can't point it out enough. When marijuana was decriminalized there, I can guarantee you that the Dutch citizens were not pouring into the streets going LET'S GO GET STONED. Those users who were already doing it were given a safe, government-regulated place to do it and told where it would not be tolerated (you can't smoke in the streets/in public, for example). I'd say that's a fine example of people who would not otherwise choose to do drugs STILL choosing not to do so. Just because cigarettes and alcohol are legal doesn't mean I don't have the capability to decide that it's not something I want to do.

This brings me to my next point.

You know why it's not like a daycare? Because we're dealing with adults. Adults who have the capacity to make decisions, good or bad, pertaining to the way they live. We're dealing with adults who have the capacity to read information and analyze it and decide what's best for themselves. I am not a child and neither are you. The difference between what's real and what's a "daycare" is that children don't know better. Children cannot reason for themselves. Children have no legal ability to choose their own path and distill information to decide what's best. By spreading biased so-called "facts" and choosing to ignore positive examples of responsibility in favor of saying EVERY DRUG WILL RUIN YOUR LIFE, you are turning our population into children and taking away their right to think for themselves and reason with the facts.

Also in response to the statement about many other addictions.  This is true that many behaviors and lifestyles are addictive.  Yet I am curious as to how many food addicts there are compared to marijuana users.  I am curious as to the amount of sex addicts versus the number of marijuana users currently incarcerated or awaiting trial.

This is not an apt comparison. Food addictions aren't ruled illegal. You don't see 400-pound Shamu Jr. getting cuffed for trying to buy his fifth hamburger of the day or because his blood pressure is dangerously high. You can't compare statistics -- you can't say, "I wonder how many people drink orange juice compared to those who are in jail for alcohol abuse" because drinking orange juice isn't illegal just like being addicted to food or sex or humping doorknobs or what-have-you isn't, either.

People enjoy flashing up the number of people in prison for marijuana use and/or possession, yet keep in mind these people choose to deal in a substance that they new carried penalties.  They are allowing this substance to interfere with their lives in a drastic fashion.  That is addiction.

That is not addiction. I smoke once every few months, if even that, and am recently clean so I can be ensured no trouble finding employment. If they took a hair sample of me right now, I would not register clean -- THC stays in the hair follicles for years, and part of that would have come from my time spent in a country where it's legal, and this alone could get me jailed. Are you seriously telling me this is an addiction? Because I am an informed drug user who chooses to be a positive example and exercise moderation while still maintaining a healthy, productive lifestyle? This is poor logic; if it were decriminalized, the argument is completely nullified. People abuse alcohol legally all the time (binge drinking is common among college students, for one), and it's not made a habit to the point of interference, but but your definition, this is still addiction. Makes no sense.

Looking around me I also know there are cocaine users, pill poppers, alcoholics, smokers and a wide assortment of other people that I would never know their addiction or behaviors.  That doesn’t mean that cocaine use is suddenly ok or that it’s alright to down a bottle of vicodine. 

No, but it means that the image portrayed of all drug users being wasteoids whose live are slowly degenerating because of their drug of choice is not an accurate portrayal. That stoner on the couch is not me. It means that there's more going on than what people are recognizing.

[Jude]

Here's a bunch of links about alcohol being worse (or in one case as worse as) than Marijuana.  Really the first two are the best, in my opinion (though I'd read the one I give just a bit later if any).
http://drug-abuse.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_benefits_of_marijuana
http://www.saferchoice.org/content/view/24/53/
http://www.rapvt.org/index_files/Page756.htm
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/188590/marijuana_heroin_vs_alcohol_tobacco.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/norm-stamper/420-thoughts-on-pot-vs-al_b_188627.html

But ignoring all else and going straight for the scientific facts, these are the results of a study done by the Lancet (A U.K. Medical Journal):  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_%28mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence%29.svg

The bottom line is, if you're okay for something that's not as bad and legal, you gotta be okay with the other.  So anyone who's against marijuana legalization, are you for prohibition of alcohol?

[Will]

I agree with you in spirit and all, but perhaps you should say "are you for the prohibition of alcohol if it were practical?"

[Kane Gunlock]

I agree with you in spirit and all, but perhaps you should say "are you for the prohibition of alcohol if it were practical?"

"all Prohibition did was make a bunch of crooks rich"-Hunter S. Thompson

[Jude]

If people were actually concerned primarily with practicality we wouldn't be arguing about this to begin with.  The war on drugs has quite clearly failed and costs a ridiculous amount of money.

[Kate]

Jude - you and I disagree on many things but that last statement I agree with.
Novell - I agree with your stance 546456 percent

Remember legalizing does not imply it will not be regulated, moderated or controlled.

just like prescriptions for some drugs - giving people 100000 pills of something and expecting them to take one a day and 10 in a day is dangerous can be silly for many drugs - that is why chemists give out only enough for a week or so. "medically prescribed use" (ie california) where "I want it for recreation and reasons and like how it relaxes me" to me is enough for "ok dude here you go - but hey you have to read this form and I will do some checks for subsequent stache - i will monitor you ra ra ra"

All animals seek "to get high" and actively chemical rushes to do so.

In Africa there is this tea that drops fruit which is a narcotic (a potent one). When this happens ALL animals go out of their way and snack like there is no tomorrow (carnivors even eat it - and they are rolling about with what would otherwise be prey effectively all off their trolly). Some forrest tribes natives rub their lips with a crude form of cocaine.

Drugs isnt something that just "appeared" with modern society, dangerous drugs also have been about for ages, nor has any society naturally formed with the idea of "drugs are bad mmmook" to my knowledge. The armish etc could be said to but they outright reject a lanscape of things - narcotics one of many for reasons I doubt relate to the main cause of dispute of this thread.

Yes there are some dangerous drugs, yes there are dangerous cars to get into. Minimising danger is possible, but Not all agree that minimizing danger as a focus over choice is a good thing.

Yes some drugs are addictive - what many dont beleive is that THOUGHTS are addictive - remember that person you hate ? Well how many times have you thought of "why" you do - over and over and over again - or something your proud about ? Or something you love ? - thoughts which you cycle over and over again.

Addiction itself is not bad, even dependency can be debated not to be bad (some are dependent on wheelchairs WHILE they maintain a set of intentions with the current state they are in) - the only point I am making with this annalogy is that the word "dependency" does not = bad logically, it may be bad circumstantially, but not universally.

For a 0 chance of myself binge drinking in the short term I may be dependent on a light spliff being available OR a good friend being about OR .. OR ... or. Same thing with people being dependent on their partner to be wealthy or their lover to feel calm, or calling their mom every day to feel like a good daughter  - dependency exists - SYMBIOTIC dependences can be good - when souls should mature out of certain dependencies should be their choice - and a choice to BE dependent on this or that is also a choice, it may be what they want in life.

IF you want to minimize drug dependency  - we should remember when things are not integrated well into society (ie you need to associate with a crowd that naturally are lawbreakers or do not respect the "machine" in regards to how the machine wants to regulate their life and others in order to even get something) ... that is when culture become split.. as there is a REASON for the culture to split (as it is imposing behavior of those living in it which didn't suit them - like everyone being forced to be catholic "or else")

People shouldn't change their behavior to suit the society they are in.

Society and culture should evolve to suit more and more individual desires.

The justification for my reasoning is that most I talk to desire society to be utopia.

If things were legalized and regulated - how potent some strains of this and that could be controlled - there would be less of a black market for the product - more too loose and risk trying black market stuff - and less of an underworld association with needing a "fix" - In all less reasons for splinter cultures to exist - as the prime culture is becoming more inclusive.

I myself adore marijuana - love it.

Some times I feel a need to relax and not care about the world - If i had a spliff about I would have one, to get the same effect while one is not available I may drink a lot of alcohol - way way way more than I should - doing way way more damage to my health and efficiency and coordination than a light spliff would.

I don't want to give my money to those I do not think deserve it, nor ones charging me a fortune because they are the ones which are risking more to be in a black-market industry - a price the consumer ends up wearing as well as the supplier. And frankly society pays for this also as the money I paid is so much more proportional to the cost of its creation - a difference compared to a regulated product would have been spent on other products or services - increasing wealth distribution and more industries.

I want my product regulated, controlled - ideally cultivated by someone what has ALL my desires for that product at heart - in a quality controlled way. Where some of the proceeds of my purchase would likely refining the product so its safer as well as gives me a cleaner "fix".... perhaps until a point its completely safe it all regards.

The only way that is going to happen is if its legal and regulated to me MUCH better than the government not caring at all either way - but all options are better than making it illegal.

[Oniya]

I'm surprised that no one has posted about the fact that California is putting this issue on the upcoming ballot.  If anyone reading this is in California - regardless of where you stand on the issue - make sure you go on down and vote your conscience.

[Kate]

I think California and nations like Denmark really should be the model for what the world should look towards.

[Kane Gunlock]

I think California and nations like Denmark really should be the model for what the world should look towards.

seriously California, look I'm all for legal pot but frankly I think that state(well LA at least) should just sink in to the ocean

[Oniya]

Tempe, Arizona thinks the Everglades are greener and wetter,
And Washington, D.C. thinks that Atlanta integrated better,
But I think that southern California has more pain than we can say,
Cause it wants to travel back in time, but it just can't leave L.A.

[noembed]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CtNp2YjLwc[/noembed]

[Lady Ayame]

I just hate that people are going to jail for smoking or growing, frankly a very harmless plant.
I say decriminalize.

[Mockingsanity]

I'm from the Netherlands, a country where(as you'll probably know)this particular plant  -is- legalized. After having tried it a few times I really don't get what all the fuss is about. As long as you don't smoke in abundance,  there's nothing to be worried about(except getting behind the steering wheel!)
According to recent surveys, drug use in countries that have a tolerant stance on the use of soft drugs is actually percentually lower than in, for example the US. It certainly seems like the whole anti-drugs policy is counterproductive. Legalizing it seems like the only logical option.

Anyway that's my two cents.

[Oniya]

I seem to recall that when the German exchange students came over when I was in high school, that they didn't really 'get' the whole fascination with alcohol that we American teens had.  We, on the other hand, were amazed that one could buy beer in a McDonalds over there.

[Will]

It could be possible that, since our attitudes toward sex (in general) tend to be more reserved in America, the popularity of alcohol among high school and college aged kids originally had more to do with getting into girls' pants than anything else.  Nowadays, it's just a rite of passage, and those don't have to make sense at all.

Just a random thought.

[Serephino]

I think it has something to do with the fact that it's a big deal, or seems like it anyway.  We humans like to do things we're not allowed to.  When you're a teenager and you score some booze you're doing something bad.  Same with marijuana.  You're doing something you're not supposed to.  My ex friend started smoking for the sole reason that she was tired of always being a good girl.

I've noticed that in any country where things are legal they aren't widely used because there's no rush.  I was in a group with someone from Peru I think it was where cocaine is legal.  He said the locals didn't usually touch the stuff, though if an American tourist pulled any of his neighbors aside and asked where to get some they could tell them. 

[Will]

I think that probably plays a major part in it, yeah.  I'm also thinking it's likely that places where drugs/alcohol are more frowned upon are overall more uptight, thereby creating a market for things that decrease that uptightness.  Thus, drugs and alcohol become popular.

[Oniya]

As I'm sure someone has mentioned in the thread before, look at what Prohibition did for alcohol's popularity.

[misselain]

Alright, I don't smoke pot. Not because it's a drug, or against law etc.  I don't like it and I'm in school for preforming arts. I so though think it should be legalized. I have one MAIN reason why I believe this. If pot is legalized we can put taxes on it, and take taxes off of ridicules thing like oh say FOOD. Plus we won't have to continue to waist money, and the time of our police force.

[Stan']

If pot is legalized we can put taxes on it, and take taxes off of ridicules thing like oh say FOOD.

I don't think you realise how Politicians work.  They'll tax marijuana and keep taxing food.  They're making money on food tax, why get rid of it?

[Noelle]

Not all food is taxed in every state; where I live, for example, most things except candy are not taxed.
Just sayin'.

[Oniya]

In my state, I think I've figured it out - anything that is an ingredient is not taxed, but prepared food (like frozen dinners, boxed meals, etc.) are.

[Ravyn]

I just wish it was legal to grow it.  I wouldn't even want to sell it, hell I'd just give the shit away I don't care...as long as I had enough to toke on myself.

[mannik]

You know there is an orginization that is working to legalize marijuana and destroy the prejudices against it.

http://www.fucr.info/

FUCR stands for Freedom Union and Cannabis Revolution. The site itself is fairly basic, but has some interesting info and quotes in it. Like this one from Abe Lincoln himself.

"Prohibition... goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control mans' appetite through legislation and makes a crime out of things that are not even crimes... A prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our Government was founded" -President Abraham Lincoln (December 1840)

[Oniya]

There's also NORML (National Organization - something or other - Marijuana Legalization).  I actually saw one of their offices in one of the nearby towns.

[Will]

National Organization for the Revision of Marijuana Laws, I think.

[Oniya]

Makes sense.  I've just been pronouncing the acronym for so many years that I've forgotten what it spelled out.  ^_^>

[Will]

True enough.  They seem to have been around for decades!  Which doesn't say much for their success. XD

[Ravyn]

National Organization for the Revision of Marijuana Laws, I think.

http://norml.org/
The National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws

It really didn't even take that long to look it up...

[Will]

* Will gives Ravyn a cookie!  Huzzah!

[Ravyn]

* Will gives Ravyn a cookie!  Huzzah!

On that same subject...I noticed that the dangers of smoking were mentioned above.  It is entirely possible to consume cannabis in food, and it still retains the same effects.  So I say load me up on snickerdoodle pot cookies! :)

[Oniya]

Have you no respect for tradition?  Hash brownies, dude!  O8) O8)

[Lady Ayame]

I'd have to disagree with the fact that people are saying that people are using Marijuana just because it's illegal, and to make it legal would "take the fun out of it"

I don't smoke because it's illegal, in fact I've stopped smoking for periods of time because I don't want to go to jail for enjoying a joint.
I smoke because it's relaxing after a long day of work, and it doesn't make me throw up, or have a hangover or act the fool like I do when I drink. I don't like the person I become when I drink.

A lot of people I know look down on me for smoking Marijuana
but in my opinion it's a lot better than getting alcohol poisoning.

It's pretty much impossible to overdose on marijuana... if you smoke too much you just go to sleep, and it's probably one of the best sleeps you'll ever have.

EDIT: also, all this talk about the dangers of mental addiction to marijuana is completely ridiculous. You can get mentally addicted to TV, hamburgers, riding your bike every day, the internet (hello, those like me on elliquiy alot haha)  ANYTHING.
it's all a matter on self control and knowing when to stop and what is the limit. For example, I enjoy a good drink every once in a while but I know once I start drinking I won't stop and bad things happen. So I choose not to drink if I can help it.

When I don't have marijuana I don't go into cold sweats, get cranky at my friends, or become sick.
I might be a little sad because I don't have anymore weed, but it's not something I'd go insane over.

all in all, it comes down to the specific person. If you have an addictive personality, you should probably stay away from substances in general.

[Kate]

Lady Ayame,

your views of the drug plant I agree with entirely.

[Noelle]

There's no reason to strike out calling it a drug. It is what it is, it's just the stigma involved with the word that makes people flip out when they hear it. Caffeine is a drug. Alcohol is a drug. Tobacco is a drug. Catnip is a drug. People (especially politicians) just like to drum up immediate, knee-jerk reactions of fear and disgust.
I still find it weird to consider myself a 'drug user' simply because of the image it conjures up in most people's minds when they hear it -- and that's not an image I particularly want to be associated with or care for -- but as I said, it is what it is. It's all just semantics anyway, I guess.

[Doomsday]

I seem to recall that when the German exchange students came over when I was in high school, that they didn't really 'get' the whole fascination with alcohol that we American teens had.  We, on the other hand, were amazed that one could buy beer in a McDonalds over there.

"In America sex is an obsession, in other parts of the world it is a fact."

I imagine this also applies to everything else that makes puritans cry.

[Will]

I've never understood why calling it a plant is supposed to make it better.  There are lots of dangerous plants in the world.  "It's a plant, so there's nothing wrong with it," right?  I seriously can't follow that logic.

[auroraChloe]

I've never understood why calling it a plant is supposed to make it better.  There are lots of dangerous plants in the world.  "It's a plant, so there's nothing wrong with it," right?  I seriously can't follow that logic. 

goes to the point that natural is better than man made, i suppose.  and it doesn't make it 'better' per se, it's just fact. 

not at all like tossing a bunch of man made chemicals in a tub until they form crystals that will rot your brain and your teeth.  ugh. 

[Will]

But why is natural supposed to be better than manmade?  And better how?  Is salvia divinorum better for you than tylenol?  Changing the label on a substance doesn't change what it is; it's just a distraction technique.

Weed is a far sight better than crystal meth, sure.  But you can't take that one relationship and expand it to mean "plants > chemicals."

[auroraChloe]

Weed is a far sight better than crystal meth, sure.  But you can't take that one relationship and expand it to mean "plants > chemicals."

why can't i ? 

you have your druthers, i have mine. 

i'd love to afford organic everything, but it tends to get expensive.   >:( 

most anything man touches is perversed somehow, in my opinion.  yeah advancement is great but they more often than not bite us in the ass eventually. 
this belongs in another thread entirely, too.  sorry   :-\

[Oniya]

'Man-made' stuff tends to filter out the impurities and increase the concentration.  Swallowing two or three apple seeds won't kill you, but swallowing a cyanide capsule the same size as two or three apple seeds will.  The nicotine obtained by smoking a pack of natural tobacco probably won't kill you, but if you boil it down into sludge to extract the nicotine, you can induce a heart attack.

So, man-made is not 'better' in the sense of 'more beneficial', but in the sense of 'more effective at what it does'.  Even if that's being poisonous.

[Jude]

why can't i ?

you have your druthers, i have mine. 

i'd love to afford organic everything, but it tends to get expensive.   >:( 

Well, you have the right to do and believe whatever you want and I support that.

most anything man touches is perversed somehow, in my opinion.  yeah advancement is great but they more often than not bite us in the ass eventually. 
this belongs in another thread entirely, too.  sorry   :-\

That's your opinion, yes, but everyone has the right to their own opinion, not their own fact, and that's not factually correct.  There is no scientific consensus that supports anything that the organic movement claims.  The studies are conflicting, contentious, and inconclusive at best, and outright show that the organic movement is counterproductive at worse.

This idea that somehow natural > unnatural is completely unfounded, not to mention largely a false premise.  Human beings have been affecting the genetic makeup of plants and animals ever since the Neolithic Revolution thanks to farming and livestock raising practices.  The whole idea of designed by nature is idiotic to begin with, when you realize that everything that's happened was essentially the result of survival of the fittest.  There is no overriding naturalistic spirit or direction; the whole concept of mother nature is entirely fabricated and really without a place in the evolution-aware modern world.

It's just one big application of the naturalistic fallacy.

[Kane Gunlock]

Revalation 22:2 " the river of life proceeded to flow from the throne of God, and on either side of the bank there was the tree of life, and the leaf from that tree is for the healing of the nations"

[Kane Gunlock]

EDIT: also, all this talk about the dangers of mental addiction to marijuana is completely ridiculous. You can get mentally addicted to TV, hamburgers, riding your bike every day, the internet (hello, those like me on elliquiy alot haha)  ANYTHING.
it's all a matter on self control and knowing when to stop and what is the limit. For example, I enjoy a good drink every once in a while but I know once I start drinking I won't stop and bad things happen. So I choose not to drink if I can help it.

When I don't have marijuana I don't go into cold sweats, get cranky at my friends, or become sick.
I might be a little sad because I don't have anymore weed, but it's not something I'd go insane over.

all in all, it comes down to the specific person. If you have an addictive personality, you should probably stay away from substances in general.

thats why I just get a gram of shwagg
[/quote]