Religion- Oh no not that again

[MasterMischief]

I am suggesting here that any person who chooses to believe Christianity will become convinced of the truth of Christianity by God himself.  God, a real and specific and sentient being, will personally convince you.

I have not researched every religion that is currently practiced or has been practiced, but all of the ones I have looked into make the same exact claim.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

[rick957]

For my part, personally, I'm content to let you have the last word in this particular discussion, MM, being the sharp-witted camelid that you are.  :)  I think it's safe to say that your perspective accords with that of many, perhaps most others who have posted here, and many smart and generous-hearted people have chimed in, I think.  I don't think I can express my less popular, dissenting perspective any better than I already have, so if we must disagree, I hope we can do so respectfully and amicably.  I'm most grateful for the dialog and interested in any further discussion, but I don't plan to take part unless someone asks a question about something I've said.

[Missy]

Search your feelings, you know it to be true.

Darth Vader said that to Luke Skywalker and it was true!

[YaoiRolePlay]

Darth Vader said that to Luke Skywalker and it was true!

Because that was a movie.

[Missy]

Sorry, it just struck me as funny how fantastical that sounded.

Honestly I have a hard time taking things seriously which sound like "search your feelings you know its true" or "if you want to know then hope with a perfect brightness of hope for things which are not seen". Like if I want it to be true, sincerely want for it to be true, I'm not just going to go along with it just because I desire for it to be so. It's basically the same as if say I have a crush on a girl and I want for her to like me too I'm not going to interpret things in an entirely subjective and biased form.

That's not to say I have anything against religion specifically. Well, if you spent time talking to me about it you would be able to tell I've had some negative experiences, however I think there are sometimes some good qualities to some religions sometimes as well and that people have every right to believe what they will. I'm not an anti-theist, but there are some theisms I'm anti about.

[MasterMischief]

Because that was a movie.

...except I think the whole self-fufilling proficy thing actually works in the real world.  Our minds are amazing at finding 'evidence' to support our current beliefs.  Why do you think superstitions (not talking about religion here) are so persistent.

[HairyHeretic]

I seem to recall reading an article some months ago about 'confirmation bias'. The general gist of it is you're more likely to believe things that corroborate what you already believe is true, whether it be religion, politics, or anything else.

[MasterMischief]

I seem to recall reading an article some months ago about 'confirmation bias'. The general gist of it is you're more likely to believe things that corroborate what you already believe is true, whether it be religion, politics, or anything else.

Exactly.  So if you think the number 13 is unlucky you focus on every instance of an unlucky event being related to the number 13.  You completely ignore the millions of other times nothing happened at all.

[YaoiRolePlay]

...except I think the whole self-fufilling proficy thing actually works in the real world.  Our minds are amazing at finding 'evidence' to support our current beliefs.  Why do you think superstitions (not talking about religion here) are so persistent.

Of course. But that's not what I was talking about, though it is a very interesting insight into the way people work.

The quote was about Luke having to look "inside himself" to know that something is true. That's why I said it worked because it was a movie. That doesn't work in real life as we've established so many times in this thread.

[rick957]

I have a question that I've wondered about for a very long time, and this seems like as good a place as any to ask it.  Unfortunately, it isn't directly related to Star Wars, but I'm sure someone could turn it in that direction, if you try hard enough.  :)

Why do you suppose that religious (i.e. philosophical, ethical, existential, metaphysical) topics are of such great interest to so many people?  Not just people who consider themselves religious in a conventional way, but also to people who have an aversion to most or all religions.

I don't have a firm answer for that, only personal theories.  I'd love to hear yours, if you have one.  (Anyone, I mean.)

[Oniya]

People want to have an explanation for the inexplicable. 

"The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign"-
Blame is better to give than receive.

(This is, of course, my personal opinion, shared to some small extent with Mr. Lee.)

[YaoiRolePlay]

That is a very good question, and one that I personally find fascinating. The simple answer is that religion is a very interesting phenomenon. It binds people together in a way very different, but eerily similar to government. Its mere existence, if nothing else, shows our evolutionary roots. And shows that we think. We are not satisfied with explanations for how the world work and so we create our own. And, when religious behavior first starts appearing in history and even pre-history, valid scientific explanations for how the world worked were not readily available, so people, in an effort to satisfy their curiosity/need to know, made their own explanations.

Thus religions complete with stories of beings with extraordinary power, gods, and heroes who caused certain things to happen. The story of Persephone is a good example. Hades, the god of the underworld, steals Persephone for her beauty. She is the daughter of Demeter, goddess of the harvest and general wildlife. She is so distraught, she causes the earth to freeze over, keeping things from growing. The gods can't allow this and so make Hades release Persephone, but Persephone has already eaten something from the underworld which means she can't go back. However, she only ate three seeds from a fruit so she had to stay in the underworld three months out of every year. And whenever Persephone is in the underworld, her mother freezes over the earth and keeps things for growing, thus winter.

Now, obviously we know why winter and the rest of the seasons exist. But they didn't at the time. These sorts of stories speak to our longing for an explanation for everything, especially things we can't understand yet. That longing is really why religion exists and why it is so interesting.

Right now, people in general are interested in religion because it is a huge part of their lives. It interrupts and a lot of times (read the United States or the Middle East) controls what goes on in government. Religious people are deeply involved in the regulation of what people can and can not do. They regulate their own lives, but they also try to regulate others. It's a very interesting thing because religion makes people mindlessly follow something without putting much thought into it. Nothing else can really do that, except perhaps patriotism. But patriotism is generally not nearly as fervent as religion.

[MasterMischief]

My own, personal fascination with religion is because I like to know what other people think and why.  I enjoy developing new perspectives.  Religion shapes what a large portion of the population thinks.  It is impossible for me to ignore.  That is why I am interested in so many different religions.

[MercyfulFate]

I'm all for spirituality, and even believing in a higher being or beings. I am just not a fan of organized religion whatsoever.

[rick957]

I was thinking about this today and wanted to post it someplace; it seems relevant to some of the topics discussed here so far, so here goes.  If you're already sick of hearing me beat my drum about certain religious topics, you should probably skip reading this.  ;)

As a Christian, I struggle constantly with what to say to people who choose to rely on science and logic to make sense of their lives and to get them through each day.  That approach is by far the most sensible way to live one's life -- literally:  it's using one's "sense," i.e. logic.  There are many Christians who think it makes better sense to believe in Christianity than to use one's logic and depend on science.  I think those Christians are full of shit and don't mind telling them so, with all due respect.  :)

I don't think Christianity makes good "sense" ... But I also think that Christianity is true ... more true than anything that my senses, or any human senses, can get ahold of.  This is the very problem. 

Christianity claims that all humans are broken to such an extent that they are not capable of seeing the ultimate truth about reality using their senses, no matter how hard they try to develop the sophistication and accuracy of those senses. 

People who get good educations spend much of their time honing their critical thinking skills to a razor-sharp edge and feeding their intellect with as much scientific information about reality as they can handle.  That's exactly what they ought to be doing, of course ... So imagine the difficulty of telling any of those smart, well-educated people that there is exactly one true thing that is unlike every other truth they've learned about or studied scientifically, in that it can only be known by rejecting what science and human senses tell them about that thing.

Christianity claims that it contains a truth so true that our broken human selves cannot comprehend this truth, because we are broken, all the way down to our intellect and senses.  We become fixed and whole only when we choose to accept that truth in spite of any and all evidence to the contrary.  It's a terrifying thing to do; it goes against every human instinct.

It bugs the hell out of me that in many ways, the smarter a person is, and the better-educated, and the better at critical thinking, the more of a hindrance that person has to accepting the truth of Christianity.  Knowledge is a priceless gift and is certainly one of the most important goals every person must strive to attain, all throughout one's life.  But all of our knowledge is that of humans, and as such, it is marred by the same crucial defect that plagues everything human.

What sort of a fool willingly turns his or her back on science and logic?  In this one case, and only this one case, the answer is -- a wise fool.

[Hemingway]

What sort of a fool willingly turns his or her back on science and logic?  In this one case, and only this one case, the answer is -- a wise fool.

I read your post, and it was immediately offensive to me. By which I don't mean that it made me feel under personal attack, or anything like that. It just gave me a negative reaction, and I feel I need to respond.

The first, perhaps most obvious thing, is how offensive ( and this time I do mean personally ) it is to imply that people who don't accept your belief system ( or, in fact, all people ) are broken, and that if only they could accept that one "truth", they could be good like you. Because, whether that is your intention or not, that is what you're saying. But that's not the main thing.

The main thing is that I find it intellectually offensive ( which I find far worse than the sort of offense of being told I'm broken ) to be told I have to set aside reason and logic. It's basically telling people that if they just stop thinking for themselves, all will be well. That I really do find offensive. And it's dangerous. I can see why you'd have trouble with that, and frankly, I'm glad you're having trouble. No one should accept a proposition like the existence of god without asking some questions of the person whose word they're asked to accept on faith alone. Such as how did you come by this supposed truth, and have you yourself considered the options?

Because it seems to me like if you freely admit that you're believing on faith alone, then you also admit that no religious is more likely to be true than any other ( or truer than no religion ).

[Iniquitous]

Oh wow.

I’m blunt, I admit it. So here goes.

That whole post is absolutely offensive to me - and much like Hemingway posted - on different levels. I do not appreciate being labeled ‘fool’ or ‘broken’ just because I do not/will not accept your religion. The fact that I actually think for myself, question what I read/hear/am told, does not make me broken or a fool. It means I am not a sheep. I do not follow blindly and to be insulted because I do not do so? Ughs.

I can honestly say I have never and would never utter such to anyone, no matter what their faith is. It is not my place to try and convince someone to believe what I believe. I actually encourage people to use their minds. To research. Ask questions. Taking anything someone else tells you at face value is, as Hemingway said, dangerous.

[rick957]

I read your post, and it was immediately offensive to me. By which I don't mean that it made me feel under personal attack, or anything like that. It just gave me a negative reaction, and I feel I need to respond.

I appreciate the response.  I did not intend to offend anyone, so I'm sorry about that; I recognize that I have certain beliefs that are potentially offensive.  More on that below.

The first, perhaps most obvious thing, is how offensive ( and this time I do mean personally ) it is to imply that people who don't accept your belief system ( or, in fact, all people ) are broken, ...

I agree that this is an offensive belief.  I can't defend it except to say that I agree with you, it's offensive; and you may or may not find this believable, but the offensiveness of that belief genuinely upsets me, personally.  I believe it because I consider it true in spite of its inherent offensiveness.

and that if only they could accept that one "truth", they could be good like you. Because, whether that is your intention or not, that is what you're saying. But that's not the main thing.

Okay.  I would never say this about myself, but I can understand how other things I said could be interpreted that way.

The main thing is that I find it intellectually offensive ( which I find far worse than the sort of offense of being told I'm broken ) to be told I have to set aside reason and logic. It's basically telling people that if they just stop thinking for themselves, all will be well. That I really do find offensive. And it's dangerous. I can see why you'd have trouble with that, and frankly, I'm glad you're having trouble. No one should accept a proposition like the existence of god without asking some questions of the person whose word they're asked to accept on faith alone. Such as how did you come by this supposed truth, and have you yourself considered the options?

Because it seems to me like if you freely admit that you're believing on faith alone, then you also admit that no religious is more likely to be true than any other ( or truer than no religion ).

The way you characterize my beliefs is not a way that I would characterize them, but I think I get your meaning.  What I said above about the offensiveness of certain beliefs is true for this belief also. 

I don't think that the way in which I came to become a Christian is all that relevant to the things I said above, but it does have a lot to do with the nature of my beliefs and the reasons for my beliefs.  I would be happy to go into detail about that privately, if anyone wants to PM me and ask; it's not something I'm secretive about, but I wouldn't want to bore people reading this thread or ask them to read about my personal life.

My beliefs are very well-thought-out and the result of years of personal experiences and critical thinking.  I have considered many alternatives over the years at different times.  I have many beliefs that have evolved over time, but certain core beliefs that remain fixed by choice.  I can gladly summarize those, but would prefer to do that also in private; I assume that summary would be inappropriate to put here, or it would seem like I was proselytizing or something, and I loathe that notion. 

As to which religion is the most likely to be true, I really don't know; my honest opinion is that calculating likelihood would involve applying the rules of logic and critical thinking, so that would ultimately point one away from Christianity, and probably away from other religions also.  It's a matter of personal opinion, but I think some form of agnosticism is the most likely set of beliefs -- the best in keeping with logic and science and established facts.  I personally reject agnosticism, however, and choose to be a Christian instead.

I hope those answers helped you to understand my perspective, although I don't expect anyone to necessarily agree with anything I've said.

@ Iniquitous Opheliac

I'm sorry that I offended you.  I appreciate your candor about it, though.  I did not intend to call anyone else a "fool", by the way, FWIW; I was referring more to my own beliefs there, as ones that appear to be foolish.

There are versions of Christianity and ways of thinking about it that are much more common and much less offensive than my own beliefs, but I can't speak very well about those alternative formulations, because I don't accept them and have various problems with them.  It might be nice if some other Christian who accepts a more conventional version of it would say something about that, if only so that Christianity would appear less offensive.  I consider it offensive myself, although I know that sounds contradictory and bizarre and illogical for any Christian to say that.

EDIT  I should add -- I think if you read what I said above closely and carefully, you'll see that I am all for critical thinking and questioning and becoming well-educated and knowledgeable about many things, including religion.  I said some stuff about that above.

[Hemingway]

I don't think that the way in which I came to become a Christian is all that relevant to the things I said above, but it does have a lot to do with the nature of my beliefs and the reasons for my beliefs.  I would be happy to go into detail about that privately, if you want to PM me and ask; it's not something I'm secretive about, but I wouldn't want to bore people reading this thread or ask them to read about my personal life.

What you believe is of absolutely no consequence. How you came to have those beliefs isn't relevant to what we're talking about now, but it would be relevant if you were trying to convert me. If someone told me a certain belief could not be held except by faith, that no test existed and that the only way for me to find the truth would be to stop thinking, I'd want to know how that person arrived at that conclusion. If that person had arrived at it the same way, I'd like to know who told them, and so on, and so on.

My beliefs are very well-thought-out and the result of years of personal experiences and critical thinking.  I have considered many alternatives over the years at different times.  I have many beliefs that have evolved over time, but certain core beliefs that remain fixed by choice.  I can gladly summarize those, but would prefer to do that also in private; I assume that summary would be inappropriate to put here, or it would seem like I was proselytizing or something, and I loathe that notion.

It bugs the hell out of me that in many ways, the smarter a person is, and the better-educated, and the better at critical thinking, the more of a hindrance that person has to accepting the truth of Christianity.  Knowledge is a priceless gift and is certainly one of the most important goals every person must strive to attain, all throughout one's life.  But all of our knowledge is that of humans, and as such, it is marred by the same crucial defect that plagues everything human.

Why do you contradict yourself? I set up those quotes side by side because in the top one you say you've been critical about your beliefs, and in the second one you say that critical thinking is a hindrance. It seems to me like you're trying to have it both ways.

[rick957]

What you believe is of absolutely no consequence. How you came to have those beliefs isn't relevant to what we're talking about now, but it would be relevant if you were trying to convert me. If someone told me a certain belief could not be held except by faith, that no test existed and that the only way for me to find the truth would be to stop thinking, I'd want to know how that person arrived at that conclusion. If that person had arrived at it the same way, I'd like to know who told them, and so on, and so on.

Okay.  I just don't know how to really answer this question without telling you things about what I believe and why I believe that, and in the process, I'd have to tell you a little about myself, because my personal experiences informed and shaped those beliefs.  All of those things seem like things best discussed in private rather than in public. 

I am not trying to "convert" you, but I am being frank in talking about my beliefs.  In my opinion, Christianity is not just the truth for me, but the truth in general, for everyone.  That's what I think; others are free to disagree, or even to consider my views to be offensive.

It's very difficult to talk about these things without sounding like I'm attacking people with different beliefs.  I don't intend to attack anyone, and I have great respect for any person who has thought carefully about religion or philosophy and come to their own conclusions, even if those conclusions differ from mine.  I hope that comes across clearly.

Why do you contradict yourself? I set up those quotes side by side because in the top one you say you've been critical about your beliefs, and in the second one you say that critical thinking is a hindrance. It seems to me like you're trying to have it both ways.

My religious beliefs are the result of a lifetime of critical thinking and personal experience.  I have certain beliefs that seem contradictory on the face of them ... I'd like to think that I'm able to explain those beliefs well enough to have them at least make sense to other people, even if they don't agree with me.  It's possible that the contradiction you are pointing out is one that only seems non-contradictory to me, and I've failed to explain it well enough to make sense to others.  I'm not sure I can do better without talking to you (or anyone else) at some length, and that seems like a process best kept out of this public thread.

Let me reiterate finally that I'm sorry to have offended you, and I'm sorry if my answers seem inadequate or unsatisfying; I'm not trying to be obtuse, much the opposite in fact.

[Iniquitous]

In my opinion, Christianity is not just the truth for me, but the truth in general, for everyone.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, as my dad use to say 'opinions are like assholes, everyone has one'. My beef comes in when someone makes a statement like you have. A statement that implies that I cannot think for myself. That my personal experiences, research and education are false because I do not believe the same way.

I am sorry if  you disagree here, but it is not your place to tell me I am wrong. That your belief is the one and only true way. Yeah, I get it that that is one of the core teachings from christianity - that you are suppose to witness to those around you - but that is rude. Just as your religious beliefs are the result of a lifetime of critical thinking and personal experience - so are mine. And yet I do not sit and proclaim my path is the right path for every person on this planet.

How arrogant would I sound if I were to post on these boards that my path is not only right and true for me but for you and everyone else?

[Oniya]

I think the thing that sets my head spinning is the 'I'm not trying to convert you, but this way is best for you' aspect of it.  It would set my head spinning whether this was said by a Christian, a Buddhist, a vegan, what-have-you.  The two phrases form a contradiction, as the second half is a classic example of what people say when they are trying to convert someone.

[NatalieB]

 

I think the thing that sets my head spinning is the 'I'm not trying to convert you, but this way is best for you' aspect of it.  It would set my head spinning whether this was said by a Christian, a Buddhist, a vegan, what-have-you.  The two phrases form a contradiction, as the second half is a classic example of what people say when they are trying to convert someone.

My mother's family are quite strongly Catholic.  I've been baptised and confirmed, been to Mass, taken confession, all the rest of it.  I stopped attending church when I was about fifteen for various fairly unimportant reasons.

My mum's family were horrified at the time, and its only time that has made them less horrifed.  My grandmother told me she'd pray for me, I gave some horrific response about how I didn't need her prayers, there was no God, etc.  I was fifteen and fairly awful.

Since then I've studied religion a lot and most a host of religious people.  And my views have kind of flipped here.  My grandmother genuinely and wholeheartedly believes I'm going to hell.  And hell sucks.  Her praying for me, asking when I'm going back to church, sending me little needlepoint homilies, all the rest of it is, in her head, the best thing she could possibly do for me.  Nothing in the world is as important, to her, as me returning to the mother church because nothing has such serious and eternal consequences. 

So she is trying to convert me (if convert is the right word there) but thats because she loves me and doesn't want me to spend an eternity without God. 

Since realising that, Ive been a lot less bothered when people try to convert me.  I think a lot of people go about it the wrong way and, in fact, in a counter productive way but the fact remains that they are genuinely trying to help me and thats kinda nice.

[rick957]

How arrogant would I sound if I were to post on these boards that my path is not only right and true for me but for you and everyone else?

*sighs*

I agree that it's extremely arrogant and rude.  In fact I keep expecting to get banned from Elliquiy for saying shit like I have in this thread.  (I'm glad I haven't though!  Yet.  Knock on wood.)

I think the thing that sets my head spinning is the 'I'm not trying to convert you, but this way is best for you' aspect of it.  It would set my head spinning whether this was said by a Christian, a Buddhist, a vegan, what-have-you.  The two phrases form a contradiction, as the second half is a classic example of what people say when they are trying to convert someone.

Again I agree.  I'm sure that's not a very satisfying response to this point.  Let me try to talk about this issue some and just be candid with you.

The problem for any Christian who actually believes Christianity is that Christianity contains an unequivocal statement that it is the single and exclusive truth, not merely one of many competing and equally valid possible truths.  I think it's the most offensive thing about Christianity, and it upsets the bloody hell out of me.  Other Christians seem to not get upset about it at all, or else they don't believe what I do about Christianity.  I wish I knew why it doesn't upset them too.  (I know why they say it doesn't, but that don't work for me.)

I consider it extremely important to treat everyone around me with respect, and that includes respecting everyone's right to believe whatever they believe, and to completely reject the things I consider to be true, if they choose to.  This sort of respect is an important part of Christianity; it's one of the most important parts, the so-called "golden rule."

Although it's not one of the crucial core beliefs, Christianity also includes a directive that Christians are supposed to live their lives out in the open, not hide the things they believe.  I do not take the directive to mean that I need to push anyone to agree with me, to share my understanding of Christianity (in fact, to do that would violate the golden rule, which is far, far more important).  Instead I just encourage people to talk with me about religion privately if they want to.  (Nobody's taken me up on that offer lately!  Not too surprising, right?  Heh.  I do not believe in trying to "sell" Christianity to anyone, but if I did, I'd consider myself the world's absolute worst salesman.)

Whether being open about my beliefs in these P&R threads is a good idea or not is very hard to say.  I've tried to talk about my beliefs some lately because they're the most important thing in my life, by far, and they give my whole life meaning in the most profound and remarkable way.  It's nearly impossible to talk about it without offending people, that's for sure, and I understand why that is, and I try real hard to find ways not to offend people.  Perhaps the best thing is to clam up, as I imagine some other people do, and not without good reasons. ... Anyways, sorry if I'm still pissing people off.

[YaoiRolePlay]

One thing that I just can not stand is willful ignorance. When you know something is true or not true, but you ignore that anyway because you just want to believe what you want to believe. I can forgive plain ignorance. If people don't know any better, that's fine. It's not ideal, but it's fine. Not everyone knows the way the world works.

But I can not abide by willful ignorance, to deliberately ignore everything you know to believe what you want to believe. That is what you've shown throughout this thread. You are smart. I know you are smart. You know the way the world works. You know that logic and reality itself, contradict your beliefs. You've said as much throughout the thread. Yet you continue to ignore that to believe something you know to be false.

Because of your willful ignorance, I can't continue to talk to you because I will be reduced to name calling and schoolyard bullying. Because there is no other way to approach this. You've closed off logical debate. You just insist on believing it no matter what. This post is fairly close to name calling, but I'm trying my damnedest to avoid it.

This is one of the most frustrating things that we atheists come across when talking to religious people. Mostly Christians because Christianity is slanted that way. It is frustrating to have this very good well thought out rational arguments and than the person just ignores it all and says, "Well my religion is true and that's that. You can't change my mind and let's agree to disagree." And my answer to that is an emphatic NO. I will not agree to disagree when you aren't even making any effort. Agreeing to disagree comes out of a respect for each other's positions because of a lively debate of ideas. If there is no debate, if you might as well just be talking to a wall, there is no agreeing to disagree. No respect for those beliefs.