Your favourite tabletop RPGs?

[Tamhansen]

Seriously. Yes. RPG's are biuilt so one player can be sherlock holmes and the others doctor watsons, or that 3 can be sherlock and 1 watson. It's about all that. It's not about who is the most useful or who has better stats. Mechanics are just a tool to adjudicate random situations, not the point of the game. The whole reason you don't understand or don't want to understand is most likely still your mistaken belief each player should have equal mechanical values. And sorry, that's true for risk and monopoly, but not for RPG's RPG's have one goal, and one goal only to play a role and enjoy the immersion. And just like in real life where each player has a different mechanical value, so do characters in an RPG. Basically a world where everyone is created equal was never intended by the creators of the games, but they do give you the option of creating that world yourself.

Read the Gygax quote I posted earlier. That guy was D&D he is the father of role playing games. You're telling me you no what the purpose of his invention is than he did?

[Tamhansen]

Oh yes, btw another RPG I really love: Munchkin. It's everything good about roleplaying, without all that tedious playing of your role and stuff. That game is epic. Especially the potted plant monster.

[Vanity Evolved]

Actually that's exactly what you did right here...

Which is why I responded to it. Otherwise I wouldn't have said a thing.

First off; I asked people what their favourite tabletop RPGs are. Period. No, I didn't ask what your favourite MMOs were. No, I didn't ask what you'd played and how long played as a form of validation for why your opinion on something is better/worse. I asked what people's favourite tabletop RPGs are. You have to twist that simple thread title pretty hard to get those conclusions from it.

[Moraline]

First off; I asked people what their favourite tabletop RPGs are. Period. No, I didn't ask what your favourite MMOs were. No, I didn't ask what you'd played and how long played as a form of validation for why your opinion on something is better/worse. I asked what people's favourite tabletop RPGs are. You have to twist that simple thread title pretty hard to get those conclusions from it.

I didn't twist anything and I quoted you exactly where you asked me the question and that's why I gave you the answer that I did.

I wasn't referring to the title but the others did reference it because they were confused why you said that in the first place then acted like you hadn't asked it.

Which interestingly enough, is exactly what you just did again.

[Vanity Evolved]

I didn't twist anything and I quoted you exactly where you asked me the question and why I gave you the answer that I did.

I wasn't referring to the title but the others did reference it because they were confused why you said that in the first place then acted like you hadn't asked it.

Which interestingly enough, is exactly what you just did again.

... What? You didn't quote any post where I said that. This is why I'm confused. The quotes I've seen about apparently me asking this is Oniya and Katataban quoting my 'looks at the thread title'.

I'm just ducking out of this little subconvo.

[Silverfyre]

Wow, pretty touchy there.  How about we go back to discussing our favorite games and leave the confused and hurt feelings at the door? 

[Moraline]

... What? You didn't quote any post where I said that. This is why I'm confused. The quotes I've seen about apparently me asking this is Oniya and Katataban quoting my 'looks at the thread title'.

I'm just ducking out of this little subconvo.

WoW.. here's your post

Actually that's exactly what you did right here...

Which is why I responded to it. Otherwise I wouldn't have said a thing.

First off; I asked people what their favourite tabletop RPGs are. Period. No, I didn't ask what your favourite MMOs were. No, I didn't ask what you'd played and how long played as a form of validation for why your opinion on something is better/worse. I asked what people's favourite tabletop RPGs are. You have to twist that simple thread title pretty hard to get those conclusions from it.

Then you just said:

... What? You didn't quote any post where I said that. This is why I'm confused. The quotes I've seen about apparently me asking this is Oniya and Katataban quoting my 'looks at the thread title'.

I'm just ducking out of this little subconvo.

Here's is the original post that you literally just quoted from me. Where I DID quote you saying that.

....
I asked people what their favourite RPGs are. Not what they've played and how long they've played as validation on their opinion.

Actually that's exactly what you did right here...

I'd love to know what MMOs you've played. =P

Which is why I responded to it. Otherwise I wouldn't have said a thing.

[Moraline]

Wow, pretty touchy there.  How about we go back to discussing our favorite games and leave the confused and hurt feelings at the door?

And your right.

Another table top game that I loved but didn't get to play much of was Cyberpunk. Our books were really old and kinda falling apart. It was frustrating so we didn't play it much.

[Silverfyre]

Cyberpunk 2020? 

[Moraline]

Yes, that's it! Loved the concept of it.

*edit* added cover:

[Vanity Evolved]

No hurt; I'm honestly just pretty confused.

The MMO comment? That's being taken completely out of context. In context, it was a rhetorical question.

You missed the point. It's up to the GM to balance the campaign and NOT put players into that sort of situation. That's what bad GM's do.  Balance isn't about having people be able to counter everyone else or everyone being able to do the same DPS. That's MMORPG thinking.

I was asking  a rhetorical question on what MMOs you've played where the idea of balance is 'Every class counters everything and every class all does the exact same damage', just to clear that up.

[Avis habilis]

We had a lot of good times playing Torg, too. Crazy mix of characters - Cyberninja! Elf magician! Peruvian psychic! Steven Segal knock-off kung fu cop! Tom Clancy mercenary! - plus lots of sudden reversals for everybody thanks to the Fortune Deck.

[Silverfyre]

It is a pretty decent game.  I actually know Ross Winn, one of the guys who designed it.  We were on a couple of gaming panels together at one of our local conventions (I have a gaming publishing company and have done some D20 work) and we even played a scenario with the crew.  It was fun but man, the guy is slimier than a used car salesman.  At least his setting was awesome.

[Moraline]

I got my first exposure to Shadowrun 4e here on the forums just a while back. I'm still not familiar with it, but I LOVE the concept of it.

[Tamhansen]

I think i found an analogy to make my point more clear, or maybe more unclear we'll see.

Think of Gygax as KarlBenz, the inventor of the automobile.

Now Benz invented the automobile, a handy little transport machine
Gygax invent RPG's as a way to collectively tell stories.

Automobiles can be used to race, but that's not why they were invented.
RPG's can introduce a level playing field, but that's not why they were invented.

Eventually certain drivers started racing their cars, others didn't
Eventually some players used mechanical balancing, others didn't

Certain drivers started building cars specific for racing, others kept building merely for the transportation of goods and people
Certain developers began creating mechanically balanced games, Others kept creating games purely for telling stories without concern for balance

Eventually extremes let to formula 1's and dragcars on one end, and trucks and buses on the other end
Rollplaying games on one end, Dice free systems on the other end.

In the end a ferrari is a car some people like, while a minivan is liked by others, both are cars and neither are a bad one.
but the fact that feraris exist doesnt mean that all cars are supposed to be ferarris

In the same way, just because their are balanced games out there, does not mean that RPG's are meant to be or need to be balanced.


Djeez i hope that makes sense to people.

[Avis habilis]

We played some Shadowrun 1e back in the day. The one thing that sticks in my mind is how hard it was to frakkin' kill anybody!

Which reminds me of the original Cyberpunk, oddly enough (the 2013 version). According to the gunfight rules, a person with a what was it, Body? higher than 9 couldn't be killed by a light pistol - no matter what wounds had been inflicted, a light pistol couldn't bump one up to fatal. You could pump .22 rounds into the guy's face all  day & he would get up the next morning & report for work.

[Oniya]

We had an on-again/off-again Shadowrun game back when I lived in VA (I think they were only on 2e at the time).  That was another one that I got source-books for before ever sitting down with a group to play.  Did you ever see any of the EarthDawn stuff? 

[Silverfyre]

Yeah, you hit that hit enough of a Body and you became Chuck Norris.

[Silverfyre]

We had an on-again/off-again Shadowrun game back when I lived in VA (I think they were only on 2e at the time).  That was another one that I got source-books for before ever sitting down with a group to play.  Did you ever see any of the EarthDawn stuff?

Oh yes.  We have a local group actually that I've been wanting to join but they run on Sunday nights.

[Avis habilis]

Did you ever see any of the EarthDawn stuff?

I got a copy of the 1e corebook at GenCon 2011 (!), but still haven't had time to read more than a few pages of it.

[Tamhansen]

We played some Shadowrun 1e back in the day. The one thing that sticks in my mind is how hard it was to frakkin' kill anybody!

Which reminds me of the original Cyberpunk, oddly enough (the 2013 version). According to the gunfight rules, a person with a what was it, Body? higher than 9 couldn't be killed by a light pistol - no matter what wounds had been inflicted, a light pistol couldn't bump one up to fatal. You could pump .22 rounds into the guy's face all  day & he would get up the next morning & report for work.

he'd be grupy though, due to the wounds. But yeah. A lot of old games had that.

[Vanity Evolved]

We had a lot of good times playing Torg, too. Crazy mix of characters - Cyberninja! Elf magician! Peruvian psychic! Steven Segal knock-off kung fu cop! Tom Clancy mercenary! - plus lots of sudden reversals for everybody thanks to the Fortune Deck.

Feng Shui had similarly awesome set up to this. If I recall, Hong Kong Kung Fu Cop (bearing NO resemblence at all to any real life Chinese kung fu action stars -Cough-Jackie Chan-Cough-) was one of the standard archetypes.

[Avis habilis]

Yep. Karate Cop (half a dozen Jackie Chan cop movies), Big Bruiser (Nada from They Live), Spy (Bond, James Bond), mutant creature, Sorceror (Egg Shen from Big Trouble In Little China) & so on & so forth.

[Vanity Evolved]

We played some Shadowrun 1e back in the day. The one thing that sticks in my mind is how hard it was to frakkin' kill anybody!

Which reminds me of the original Cyberpunk, oddly enough (the 2013 version). According to the gunfight rules, a person with a what was it, Body? higher than 9 couldn't be killed by a light pistol - no matter what wounds had been inflicted, a light pistol couldn't bump one up to fatal. You could pump .22 rounds into the guy's face all  day & he would get up the next morning & report for work.

It's kinda' like Shadowrun 4e. A Troll with even baseline Body and some decent armour has a good chance of shrugging off anti-tank missles and pistols are near useless on anything, considering how good rifles and automatic weaponry is; my groups usual tactic was to load every pistol up with Stik 'n Shock rounds (little one-shot taser cartridges) which ignored armour and worked off Stun, which was always your lower condition tract 90% of the time. And on the upside, made your pistol a cheap, if pretty crummy way of attacking spirits.

[Callie Del Noire]

Cyberpunk 2020?

I miss that game. When the new one came out I had such high hopes, then...

Words fail me.  I need beer to wash away the pain.