Same-Sex Marriage!

[Trieste]

I do apologise if my posts are coming off as holier-than-thou. I did not mean them in that fashion, but my writing style is kinda formal. It's from all the lab reports; you'll get used to it. :)

"Multi-sex couple" - I can use 'hetero couple' if you like. It's a couple with one man and one woman, in this case. Or, if we're discussing polyamory, many men... many women... any combination of the two. You know. Whatever.

[Cherri Tart]

really, for me, all it comes down to is that i want to be treated like anyone else - anyone who isn't gay has very little idea of what it's like to be gay - dealing with being a second rate citizen in all too many cases.  Really, how many times do i have to hear 'i don't care what they do as long as long as they don't shove it in our faces or much, much worse (yes, i have been told that God hates me, et al, more then once in my life and i live in the SF bay area!)

Really, i am a person too.  i fell in love with another girl - i didn't plan it that way - in many respects its made my life more difficult, but it's what happened.  And if, at some point, we decide that we want to spend the rest of our life together, i just want to the opportunity to do so without prejudice. 

[Trieste]

Aw, shucks. I can't debate with flattery or Photoshop! Not without firing up PS myself, but ... lazy.

*hugs Cherri, just for kicks* :)

[Elvi]

Joseph, from what I have seen of your discussion, you have argued yourself around to saying that you believe a couple, no matter what the sexual orientation, should be stable.

I don't think anyone here would really take issue on that. Unfortunately and for many reasons, it doesn't always work and you have seen examples of that here.
Cherri lost her mother at an early age and her father had to take on both roles.
Trieste's parents split up and her mother had to take on both roles for a large portion of her childhood years.
My own story is that I was divorced after 15 years and left with an 18 month old daughter and met my new partner when she was a little over 2 years old, her 'step father' is a far better role model than her real father would have ever been.

And yet, in comparison, of the four stable homosexual relationships, which can be compared, I know only one has broken up.
(In the longest they have been together now for over 30 years, the shortest coming up to 10)     

Children need stability, sometimes that comes from two parents, aunts and uncles, grandparents, a single mother or father, a gay couple, a careworker in a local home.
In my mind it makes no difference at all who gives a child that stability, what matters is that they get it.

However, I would take issue on the idea that men and women, in either a gay or heterosexual relationship (either married or living as man and wife), should be pigeon holed.
It seems to me that you are saying that there MUST be a male and female role model, whether in a heterosexual or homosexual relationship and it doesn't really work that way.

Many women are now the 'bread winners', while many fathers choose to take over the running of the house and bring up children.
Many men now do far more housework than was traditionally expected of them in the fifties and sixties.
Even more choose to share the burden of the drudge in life and the caring of their children.

Why should this not apply also to homosexual 'two dad/two mum' relationships, why does there have to be a feminine male or a masculine female?
Things are changing, in both the heterosexual and homosexual worlds, people need to begin to think out of the box and not judge what a person is today based on what they were 30/50 years ago.


 

[Celestial Goblin]

Replying to Goblin- I have a number of gay friends. Their orientation doesn't bother me, nor does their relationship. If they wanted to marry, I'd probably be happy for them. It's just the practice of gay marriage on the whole that worries me because of how it may further weaken the family structure of America's youth.

Oh god, the 'I've got a number of gay friends' response is so old, it's practically a joke.
To answer it, they might be your friends, but if you act to stop them from getting marriage rights, you aren't their friend.

As far as the family stuff, it's artificial panic created for political reasons. A family doesn't become less stable because two people of same gender are together.
And frankly, family and marriage are a very important thing to many people. They tap into a very basic psychological need and despite, as Ruby mentioned, many current heterosexual marriages being flimsy, it's not worth to get rid of it.

As for situation of kids with homosexual parents, there are two issues:
1) marriage and adoption are two different issues
2) even if having gay parents would be somehow worse(which I have good reasons to believe is not the case), it still beats being an orphan.

And the 'gay marriage will lead to polygamy' bit? Same as letting people practice Christianity and Buddhism will lead to satanic death cults demanding they get recognition too...

[ShrowdedPoet]

Here is an article that really pissed me off!  The people who wrote it acted like gay was a sickening crime.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200805/CUL20080516c.html

[Elvi]

<snip>
in fact, if you'd care to read a little more closely, you'll notice that I said gay marriage would actually hopefully strengthen the relationships between homosexuals.

Why would it?
Marriage doesn't seem to have strengthened the bonds between almost half the heterosexual marriages.
Homosexual people are simply that, people, they make mistakes and bad decisions along with the rest of us.

[Cherri Tart]

Here is an article that really pissed me off!  The people who wrote it acted like gay was a sickening crime.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200805/CUL20080516c.html

why is it that people are so full of hate?  Shouldn't love be celebrated, no matter who it is between?  This makes me a sad kitten.

[Sherona]

Here is an article that really pissed me off!  The people who wrote it acted like gay was a sickening crime.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewCulture.asp?Page=/Culture/archive/200805/CUL20080516c.html

I strongly Disagree with the article's writer opinion. I believe that if that person really wanted to represent the crowd of "Marriage is 1 man 1 woman" opinion he should have done a better job of it rather then coming off bigotted. Though really, the whole argument kind of doesnt hold much water and is just bigotted imo.

However I stand by his right to have his opinion...I just wish people on both sides of the fence would think before they publish rants and what not because they are affecting (effecting?) their whole side.

Just to be clear I am all for same-sex Marriages, I am not supporting the side that says marriage is an institute between a man and a woman and not between a man and a man etc and so forth. Just stating people with opinions who do not know how to properly phrase their opinions HURT their arguments more then help. And he calls himself an Editor..

[Elvi]

I'm afraid that you need to stick to one actual stance here Joseph, one minute you are saying that 'gays' aren't like normal 'people' and they shouldn't be allowed to marry because it will ruin America's youth, the next you are saying that you are all for it, it's like trying to discuss something with a faulty barometer.

Your last post now completely contradicts what your initial post said, which actually spawned this discussion.

Tell you what, lets forget the post that I made about this, just above Celestial's, because I have a feeling that you will simply change your tack once more and everything will become even more confused.

Hell....I daren't even ask what you think of people cohabitating, when you have this opinion of marriage.

[Celestial Goblin]

Who said gay marriage will lead to polygamy?

I thought that photoshop you made was a humorous attempt to mention that popular accusation.

[Cherri Tart]

I thought that photoshop you made was a humorous attempt to mention that popular accusation.

actually, being in a gay relationship has cured me of my polygamous ways... the girl beats me if i even think of sleeping with a guy! *pouts* 

[ShrowdedPoet]

Who said gay marriage will lead to polygamy? I sure didn't, and I'm sure no one else here would make that argument. We were discussing polyamory as a seperate issue, but I never linked the two; in fact, if you'd care to read a little more closely, you'll notice that I said gay marriage would actually hopefully strengthen the relationships between homosexuals.

huh?

[Moondazed]

I think a lot of kneejerk reactions to things like samesex marriage and polyamory are based in fear of the unknown.  Regardless of what 'marriage'TM is to a given individual, in the present day it's a piece of paper that allows two people to share medical benefits and gain life partner rights, at its core.  Those rights should absolutely be granted to alternative relationships!  Marriage is about commitment and lots of other things to different people, but the bottom line, and one of the main reasons I'm so strongly for samesex marriage, is life partner rights.  How about if we consider everyone's feeling and define marriage as a legally binding contract granting life partner rights?  Why does it have to include religious connotations or definitions of who can and can't do it?  What if it was treated as a license, and there were penalties for entering into it fraudulently just like there are penalties for putting a license plate on a car it isn't registered to? :) 

I've been with my husband for 12 years, and until 6 months ago he'd been in the throes of a 5 year depression during which he pretty much shut down.  Don't presume to talk to me about my commitment level.  I stayed and supported him and went through a lot of things that most people would have considered grounds for divorce.  The conversation that needs to be had is about what true, committed love is, because it's not some illusory structure that has Ward and June Cleaver's faces taped to it, imo.

[Trieste]

That's sort of what it boils down to. See...

.<----Religion goes here           Law goes here --------------------------------->.

Pretty simple. The problem is that you have a legal term, 'marriage' ... and you have a religious ceremony, also called 'marriage'. That seems to be what is confusing things. If we'd just change the term to 'civil union' or something like it and leave marriage to the preachers, I don't think we'd have half the problems with this debate that we do have.

And at the risk of sounding like a rhetoric-machine, the Pledge is 'one nation, [under God,] indivisible, with liberty and justice for all" (emphasis mine, in case that isn't clear). How can we do the whole 'united we stand' thing if something as silly as two consenting adults getting married splits us so much? It's preposterous. We have bigger things toward which we should be directing the social, legal, and political energies spent on this stupid debate. It's stupid. It's civil rights, not civil liberties, and it's insane and asinine that people should put so much time and effort into fighting against something that doesn't affect them. Don't like gay marriage? I suggest you don't marry another person of your sex. For those that want to, what's the harm to you? ('You' being general, here, in the sense of the french 'vous' or spanish 'usted'... we need a word like that in English.)

[Moondazed]

And at the risk of sounding like an even worse rhetoric machine, the under God was added later ;)

[Trieste]

S'why it's in brackets. Some say it, some don't, and it's not important to the point, so I didn't worry about it too much. :)

[Moondazed]

Sorry... couldn't resist :)  I liked your graphic, by the way (or whatever you call picture made from characters)

[Jester]

I have a lesbian cousin, Amy,  and went to her wedding with her partner last year.

She recently gave birth to a baby girl after sending an email to the family saying she did not want to disclose how....

She has stuck a label on her parents toilet seat saying "I am gay get over it." 

Her father trained to be a Catholic Priest but stopped when he met my Auntie. He has taken it very well even though he is extremely Catholic. My Auntie has found it very difficult and is now in Counselling. She has fallen out with my mother and father which i think is because she is finding it so hard and i suppose my parents arent really helping.  My other cousin is also gay but hasnt told his parents yet because he has seen the effect his sister has had.

My grandmother is upset because my cousin Amy has told her that she cant give her grandchild a bible with the old testament in. Because its Homophobic. Which quite frankly is censorship.

I must admit i agree with a lot of my parents problems with same sex marriages, and also same sex parents. I have seen the damage it does to a family. Not because its bad but because its difficult to understand and well... its not the norm.

I am a fence sitter I am afraid and hate hearing either side of the story because i am able to see both sides. I have had bi experiences in my life so i can understand but its a shame because there will be people who dont understand.

[Moondazed]

Any time one steps outside the norm they risk situations where people who are supposed to love them can't put their interests first.  That may sound harsh, but that's how I see it.  If one of my son's (or both!) told me they were gay I would accept them just as they are, I have absolutely no doubt.  To do otherwise is not to give them the unconditional love that a loving mother OWES her child.  Sadly, too many parents are self-centered and too scared of what others will think or say to stand beside their child.  That's what makes me sad.  The problems you describe are problems with our stupid fucking lemming society, not with your cousin who happened to fall in love with a woman.

Realizing that that's strongly worded, let me clarify that it's not a personal attack.  It drives me crazy when parents are too caught up in themselves to love their children the way children deserve to be loved.

[Trieste]

I can see the fenceness. I can't blame a parent for not wanting to expose their child to something that's used to justify protests against their way of life every single day. On the other hand, you let the child read (or let them find it) and you discuss it with them. You can't censor your child from the world... not even close. But I can see the need to try.

[Moondazed]

I can see sheltering a child from things you consider offensive or inappropriate until they're old enough to understand what they're reading and why you find it offensive.  I'm Pagan, but I talk to my kids about beliefs from a stance of, "Here's what I believe, and here's what other people believe."  It's my job to be aware enough of what others believe to give my kids a balanced idea of what's going on outside of our little town (which is incredibly Baptist *cringe*).  I do NOT present my opinion as the right one, I discuss what the options are and why I believe what I do, but I don't talk badly about people who believe otherwise.  For a while my teenager decided he was a Satanist and I maintained my stance, not telling him that he was wrong, but instead pointing out where I thought his actions were unacceptable.  Truthfully, I was really surprised at how he dealt with it... he read books and really does know what Satanism is based in.  Something I tell him frequently is that I don't think that everyone who does things differently than I do is wrong, but if I thought they were right I'd be doing it their way instead ;)

This relates to the samesex marriage issue in that I don't feel that I have the right to deny someone life partner rights whether I think their sexual choices are correct or not (for the record, I'm bisexual, if that has any bearing).

[Elvi]

For a while my teenager decided he was a Satanist and I maintained my stance, not telling him that he was wrong, but instead pointing out where I thought his actions were unacceptable.  Truthfully, I was really surprised at how he dealt with it... he read books and really does know what Satanism is based in.

I have had the same with Beasty, she is into voodoo and has learned a lot about the actual religion, not the bad PR, however, when she learned that it was partially based upon Christianity, it sort of turned her off.

She, like all other children should be, pushes the limits, tests the boundaries and works out what is going to be right for her.
(Though I think that it infuriates her that she can't seem to find anything to shock us with, but she is still trying her hardest.....*grins*)

[Trieste]

I feel sorry for any kids I might have. I was able to shock my dad by wearing a cloak to high school school on a regular basis and wearing white mascara with blue lipstick. Although I think my mother wasn't as shocked as she let on ... merely amused. But not really amused because it upset my dad so much and that's never very amusing for the wife.

[Hunter]

All I'm going to say is that I'm one of those uptight conservatives.

*wraps hisself in a cloak (Yes, I have one!) and returns under his rock*