Pussyriot band member 'vanishes'. A return to the 'good old days'?

[Toral Stimins]

You've opened a sewer now, A big one. Google Yaya Touré you say? And that coming from an American? At least, I presume with the South of the Mason/Dixon line, as it is unfamiliar to me.

Yaya Touré said he was racially abused by the Moscow public. And CSKA (the army club btw, as opposed to Dynamo - Internal Affairs, Spartak - Sports affairs, Torpedo - Car manufacturing) said he was making it up.

In this case it's a he-say, they-say story. As strangely enough, there's no evidence to be found. The game, as it was a CL game, was broadcasted live in a fair few countries, yet no country picked it up. It is Touré's word against CSKA's word.

Mario Balotelli walked out off the pitch in friendlies in Italy not so long ago, I don't hear you about those. But that was in Italy. Don't try to play a football card against me, you'll lose, day in day out. I eat, sleep and breath football like you do air.

There is no proof, nothing whatsoever that Yaya Touré was racially abused in the CSKA match. Yet the club was found guilty of it. There is nothing of evidence, nothing at all. UEFA officials were there, as they are at all CL matches, but they heard nothing. And yet, CSKA was found guilty. Mayhap, just mayhap, because they are Russian.

[vtboy]

it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did that.

Source, please.

but hundreds and hundreds of Palestinian citizens killed for no other reason than they are not Jewish should be called as race murder.

Source, please.

That the US of A can and will invade the Netherlands (after all, it's only a fellow country in NATO) if an American is ever brought to trial for crimes against humanity?

Source, please.

In fact, the women who were forced into filing, had no plans of doing so.

Source, please.

Public Enemy, the band, has not been so much prosecuted in the US, but they have sure been harassed by politics, why?

Source, please.

it is no fair game for you to point anything out to Russia, America is just as much at fault.

So, one who is a citizen of a country that is not squeaky clean (by your lights) has no right to criticize the policies of another country? Very enlightened.

[Callie Del Noire]

You've opened a sewer now, A big one. Google Yaya Touré you say? And that coming from an American? At least, I presume with the South of the Mason/Dixon line, as it is unfamiliar to me.

Yaya Touré said he was racially abused by the Moscow public. And CSKA (the army club btw, as opposed to Dynamo - Internal Affairs, Spartak - Sports affairs, Torpedo - Car manufacturing) said he was making it up.

In this case it's a he-say, they-say story. As strangely enough, there's no evidence to be found. The game, as it was a CL game, was broadcasted live in a fair few countries, yet no country picked it up. It is Touré's word against CSKA's word.

Mario Balotelli walked out off the pitch in friendlies in Italy not so long ago, I don't hear you about those. But that was in Italy. Don't try to play a football card against me, you'll lose, day in day out. I eat, sleep and breath football like you do air.

There is no proof, nothing whatsoever that Yaya Touré was racially abused in the CSKA match. Yet the club was found guilty of it. There is nothing of evidence, nothing at all. UEFA officials were there, as they are at all CL matches, but they heard nothing. And yet, CSKA was found guilty. Mayhap, just mayhap, because they are Russian.

Okay, I will break my silence on this.

One. Since I'm an American, I can't be objective. Yeah I read the bit in Italy, but if I pulled up every accusation of Racism that didn't cover your source I'd be typing forever. Did you look/read my cited source from world policy or just jump on the Yaya comment. I'm guessing you didn't.

Are you going to pull the 'White American Southerner' can't know racism card? I've had discrimination, try being Scotch/Protestant in an Irish Catholic school in Ireland in the 70s. I had dates get snubbed because I was White, and she wasn't and vice versa.

Everywhere there is discrimination. If you haven't suffered from it or had a friend suffer from it you're lucky.

You keep bring up tangents and I keep responding to them and you go further afield.

What, pray tell, does racism on a soccer pitch in Italy have to do with the failure to provide timely and accountable locations and state of health for a prisoner in Russia. Particularly one whose only crime is to suffer from a chronic lack of taste and/or common sense in how she protests in her own country?

Now, I'm done. I'll nit be posting any more in this tread for 24 hours.

[Toral Stimins]

Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.So, one who is a citizen of a country that is not squeaky clean (by your lights) has no right to criticize the policies of another country? Very enlightened.

Great contribution, I applaud you!

[vtboy]

I guess I should just assume you are an unbiased and unimpeachable source of verifiable information, rather than risk implying you might just be parroting rubbish gleaned from crackpot conspiracy websites. Sorry for being gullible that way.

[Oniya]

Great contribution, I applaud you!

Please read the stickies in this section.  Asking for sources in this part of the forum is a valid point.

[Neysha]

I must express my dismay at my perception that many people are engaging in a competition of racing to the bottom in pointing out other countries societal ills as a defense of their own nations alleged failings.

[gaggedLouise]

I must express my dismay at my perception that many people are engaging in a competition of racing to the bottom in pointing out other countries societal ills as a defense of their own nations alleged failings.

Agree - two wrongs don't make a right.


And how on earth did this thread drift from Pussy Riot and Russian prisons to discussing Yaya Touré and the alleged racist slurs of a Russian football spectator crowd...within the first page?

[Neysha]

Agree - two wrongs don't make a right.


And how on earth did this thread drift from Pussy Riot and Russian prisons to discussing Yaya Touré and the alleged racist slurs of a Russian football spectator crowd...within the first page?

No idea, but in cases like these, it would be helpful to focus... like a laser beam perhaps, on the original topic at hand before it goes massively adrift in blood libeling each other for national transgressions.

For what it's not worth, Dashenka's initial post seems to be rather spot on IMHO, editorializing aside. It seems fairly likely to me that this poor lass was probably transferred to a different prison and the Russian authorities in charge simply aren't telling the media or the husband where she is, likely in an effort to avoid further scrutiny of her accommodations as opposed to the other possible interpretation, which would have her having been executed by the state and thrown in a forgotten ditch somewhere and thus vanished in a completely different sense of the term.

[Dashenka]

Agree - two wrongs don't make a right.


And how on earth did this thread drift from Pussy Riot and Russian prisons to discussing Yaya Touré and the alleged racist slurs of a Russian football spectator crowd...within the first page?

Because I get tired of the biased media attention Russia is getting globally and on Elliquiy. I stated why I think Nadezhda got transferred and in saying that I apparently said something to offend Callie, which was never my intention, merely to answer the question. Then the bashing began. What I only said from there on was that everything Russia is doing now, the Americans or Europeans have already done before. Just because this happens in Russia means it's big news and terrible and frankly, I'm sick and tired of Americans mostly blaming Russia for stuff America does as well. Putin was elected as president of Russia. He cares for what happens in Russia and what happens outside of Russia and what people think of him outside Russia is not important to him. Obviously Obama and Kerry were elected as president of the entire world.

How epic would the UK be if Cameron did that? Or how great would America be if Obama and Kerry got as much effort into ruling America as they do in ruling the rest of the world?


And one more thing...

Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.Source, please.So, one who is a citizen of a country that is not squeaky clean (by your lights) has no right to criticize the policies of another country? Very enlightened.

Have you ever seen this tv show called 'the news'? If you deny that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity, you either have never watched or read the news, or you are ignorant or stupid.

[Avis habilis]

Pay very close attention to this.

The very next lump of personal insult, goalpost moving, special pleading or tu quoque that gets added to the steaming pile that this thread has turned into gets it locked. plus an official warning for the one who drops it.

[Chris Brady]

Uh, Dashenka, the amount of attention Russia is getting, good or bad, has been minimal compared to the various threads dealing with mostly North American issues.  Like Presidential issues/politics, attempted American Laws that will affect the world (SOPA and PIPA), U.S. Military threads...

There's a lot more America 'bashing' than any other country on this particular section of the board.

As for people worrying about the Pussy Riot band member, don't you think they're entitled?  Russia has not had a internationally clean record of human rights.  Yes, all countries have had abuses, even my home of Canada isn't exactly spotless (I'm remembering Somalia, and the fact that CNN got Canada to disband a special forces division on the actions of three men, which were pretty horrific), but until the mid to late 80's, Russia had quite a few horror stories coming from it.  Not to mention that moving a prisoner out of one prison to another for political reasons is pretty damn shady no matter who is doing it.  America, Canada, Brazil, Iran, Russia or any of the other 100+ countries we have on this wonderful water ball of mud we call home.

[Dashenka]

Oh my God what does a girl have to do before people will understand that just because I understand why something happens I don't necessarily agree with it.

Also Americans bashing America is fine. Russians bashing Russia is fine. I could even live with Americans bashing Russia if they knew even a little bit of what's going on in Russia but the fact is that a lot of people have their opinion on Putin and Russia, which you are entitled to, but don't know the first thing about Russia. That's what bothers me.

I also think it's idiotic that they got send to prison in the first place but having experienced first hand the situation Russia is in now, explains a lot and THAT is something that doesn't ring home with a lot of people in the west.

[gaggedLouise]

No idea, but in cases like these, it would be helpful to focus... like a laser beam perhaps, on the original topic at hand before it goes massively adrift in blood libeling each other for national transgressions.

For what it's not worth, Dashenka's initial post seems to be rather spot on IMHO, editorializing aside. It seems fairly likely to me that this poor lass was probably transferred to a different prison and the Russian authorities in charge simply aren't telling the media or the husband where she is, likely in an effort to avoid further scrutiny of her accommodations as opposed to the other possible interpretation, which would have her having been executed by the state and thrown in a forgotten ditch somewhere and thus vanished in a completely different sense of the term.

For the record, I never said in this thread that I thought it was likely or "almost certain" that Nadzhezhda had been executed, had fallen into a coma or had been gang raped by the jail wardens. Only that the act of moving her to a completely undisclosed location was a foul move and a course of action that's been used in the past to run over a prisoner's rights - in the Soviet Union, and in other places.

[vtboy]

Have you ever seen this tv show called 'the news'? If you deny that Israel is commiting crimes against humanity, you either have never watched or read the news, or you are ignorant or stupid.

If commonly accepted notions of civility are insufficient cause to refrain from ad hominem attacks, perhaps you should consider their implication that the maker has nothing of substance to say.

It is precisely because I read newspapers and watch broadcast news that my skepticism is aroused by statements that Israel is killing hundreds of Palestinians "for no other reason than that they are not Jewish which should be called race murder," the implication being that it is the policy of Israel to engage in the sort of ethnic cleansing that took place not that long ago in the Balkans, and is occurring today in North Africa. To be sure, Israel has used violence against Palestinians, sometimes with justification and sometimes without. I have yet to see any evidence that its purpose has ever been to exterminate Palestinians "because they are not Jewish." About 20% of the population of Israel is Arab, most of whom identify themselves as Palestinian, and nearly all of whom are either Israeli citizens or legal residents of Israel. More than 10% of the members of the Knesset are Arab citizens of Israel, as is one of Israel's Supreme Court justices. However heavy handed or oppressive you may think Israel's policies are with respect to the occupied territories, the suggestion that the nation is engaged in genocidal murder is far-fetched, to put the matter most kindly.

Similarly, because I follow the news, I am very curious about the source, if any, for the statement, "it's beyond reasonable doubt that Israel did it [i.e., murdered Arafat]." Though there is plenty of innuendo from those who see advantage in smearing Israel with the crime, I have yet to see any reported evidence to suggest involvement by Israel in the apparent poisoning. Nor does it make sense that Israel would have killed him. At the time of his death, Arafat, isolated in Ramalah, was little more than the titular head of an organization which had become moribund with factionalism and in-fighting. Israel did not assassinate Arafat when he had real influence. Why would it turn him into a martyr after he had devolved into impotence?

Then there was the comment about Israel "pull[ing] the 'we were almost killed off by the Germans' card." I am not one to assume anti-Semitism lies behind dispassionate criticisms of Israeli policy, many of which I share. However, reference to the holocaust as a "card," coupled with entirely unsubstantiated charges of genocidal animus and responsibility for Arafat's death, forces me to wonder just what really motivated these statements.

And, while I am on the subject of motive, there is also your suggestion that only someone who does not watch or read or understand the news could differ with your perception that "Israel is committing crimes against humanity." This is of a piece with the reflexive appeals of bigots to what "everyone knows," as in "everyone knows that gays are pedophiles," or "everyone knows that blacks are lazy and shiftless," or "everyone knows that Jewish bankers are conspiring to take over the world." Such incantations seek only to avoid thought and to shield prejudice from the sort of scrutiny which would show its factual vacuity.   

[ShadowFox89]

It is appalling that she has no right to see anyone, or that her husband and lawyers have no right to see her or hear from her, but it is not much different from how the US treats their prisoners of war. And yes, it wasn't the start of the discussion, but you just opened that door very wide for me.

Big difference between suspected terrorists held as prisoners of war and one of your own citizens being given a kangaroo court trial then later transferred with no contact to her lawyer or family before or after the transfer.

We've tried closed GB, but people keep putting a huge fit up over it. Where do you suppose the prisoners go? Let free? Put into civilian penitentiaries? I'd be on of the first in line to argue that our (USA's) legal system needs an overhaul, but there's a world of difference between "This girl said something bad about our leader" and "these guys maybe likely possibly have planned to kill hundreds of people".

I seem to recall certain posters within this thread positing the theory that Israel was behind the chemical attacks on civilians in Syria. Which was found to be false. Hell, Russia has been sending more and more weapons to Syria ever since Assad was ordered to disarm the chemical weapons that we know about.

But, back to the topic on hand. There are a good deal of things going on in Russia that point back to the 'old ways'. Cracking down on personal liberties, political leaders acting like James Bond villains (Putin just needs a fluffy white cat to sit on his lap), reporters who write articles that have a negative view on the government dying mysteriously, etc. I'm half expecting Putin to announce that he is replacing the Russian Constitution at some point.

[Dashenka]

Big difference between suspected terrorists held as prisoners of war and one of your own citizens being given a kangaroo court trial then later transferred with no contact to her lawyer or family before or after the transfer.

Hell, Russia has been sending more and more weapons to Syria ever since Assad was ordered to disarm the chemical weapons that we know about.

In style with this topic.... Source?

She was given a normal trial and found guilty. I don't agree with the laws but if you break the law, you get punishment. The reason why she's in prison wasn't because she said something about Putin but the location and the way they did it is illegal. Disgracing the church is a crime.

[Callie Del Noire]

Okay, after taking time to cool off and think I guess I failed in my original and ongoing posts to point out WHY this concerned me.

I apologize, I let myself be distracted and tried to answer/comment on many issues way far afield from the orignal issue at hand. The fact that a woman has vanished within the system for something like a fortnight or more depending on which new source you trust.

Fourteen to eightteen days are the numbers I see most in the articles/blogs I've looked through. Just no comment from the official record.

Okay, for those of you who do NOT have a grounding in Western Government, that is a scary thing. Accountabilty in government is a big issue in the West and one of the reasons so many give the US and UK so much crap on their 'war on terror'. Accountabilty. I find it very disturbing that the family and the woman's lawyers cannot get any statement or update on her location. Over two weeks with no comment? That is chilling. Accountabilty is the BIGGEST flaw I see in our own current penal system as more loopholes and gaps are found. I haven't found a penal system outside of Sweden or Japan that doesn't need MAJOR reform. (SIDE BAR: We need to deprivatize our own system BADLY)

Do I think Putin is involved? No. I think someone further down the system just said something along the lines of 'F-them' and hasn't responded or filed the paperwork. Leaving her in limbo. It's happened here in the US, though when it does.. and it can be proven to have malice of forethought, typically someone loses their job and the family gets rich rich rich.

Side note.. since I can't find a source I trust.. what exactly DID the girls do in the church? I've heard they taped video in two different churchs in their 'costume' (the colored Baclavas) and did a prayer on the video asking God to remove Putin from office.. but anything beyond that (on either side) seems either too sedate or extreme to believe.

[ShadowFox89]

In style with this topic.... Source?

She was given a normal trial and found guilty. I don't agree with the laws but if you break the law, you get punishment. The reason why she's in prison wasn't because she said something about Putin but the location and the way they did it is illegal. Disgracing the church is a crime.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57575885/pussy-riot-punk-band-remains-defiant-of-putins-russia/
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/mar/06/russian-punks-pussy-riot-putin-protest
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/2/pussy-riot-membermissingfornearlytwoweeksintransithusband.html

I specifically used three news sites that don't have a large bias here in America. No, I don't know about any of their reputations for reliability abroad. Frankly, I really don't care, as that's hearsay and any statements about such would be shifted due to opinion.

[Callie Del Noire]

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18560_162-57575885/pussy-riot-punk-band-remains-defiant-of-putins-russia/
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2012/mar/06/russian-punks-pussy-riot-putin-protest
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/2/pussy-riot-membermissingfornearlytwoweeksintransithusband.html

I specifically used three news sites that don't have a large bias here in America. No, I don't know about any of their reputations for reliability abroad. Frankly, I really don't care, as that's hearsay and any statements about such would be shifted due to opinion.

Thank you, that clears a bit up for me. I still think the girls suffered from lack of bad taste but that isn't criminal hear and none of those are as extreme as I had heard.

[Toral Stimins]

Thank you, that clears a bit up for me. I still think the girls suffered from lack of bad taste but that isn't criminal hear and none of those are as extreme as I had heard.

But that's the problem, we all look at something that might or might not be criminal where we live or come from. In Russia, what they did, was a criminal offense. And so they were brought to justice. No matter how bad we think it is. In the Netherlands you can smoke weed sort of legally. But in many other countries it's a criminal offense. We Dutch think that's strange. But that's how countries work.

(btw, apologies for how I was last night)

[Callie Del Noire]

But that's the problem, we all look at something that might or might not be criminal where we live or come from. In Russia, what they did, was a criminal offense. And so they were brought to justice. No matter how bad we think it is. In the Netherlands you can smoke weed sort of legally. But in many other countries it's a criminal offense. We Dutch think that's strange. But that's how countries work.

(btw, apologies for how I was last night)

I understand. To me, as as christian, it's weird that I cannot visit the inside of a Mosque, but that is their way. I get it on one level but on another I don't see it as 'fair/rational'.

Likewise I don't see how this protest on separating church and state is any worse than the awful video Madonna did YEARS ago  in a church. I understand on an intellectual level that my 'foundation' of things is different but my gut still goes 'this is stupid' and wonder why they didn't just put the girls in a minimum security facilty and forget about them for 2 years? The PR angle of this is drawing more and more attention on somehting that could have been 'ignored' away by putting them somewhere quiet and secure. Simply saying 'here she is on the phone, and she'll be at prison X next week' would have done WONDERS for keeping this low key.

[gaggedLouise]

I think the point they wanted to make was not just the Russian church being supported by the state, but how the church is paying back and offering definite support for Putin and his regime. In that sense, the way they were jackhammered in court proved them right - if one is ready to see that the court was playing down to the wishes of the church and (more or less by proxy) of Putin.

That's not to say that Putin or anyone else in the Kremlin personally would have ordered the verdict, but the court certainly knew what the regime wanted. Nadzhezhda and the others are walking in a long line of Russian prisoners of conscience and martyrs.

[Toral Stimins]

I understand. To me, as as christian, it's weird that I cannot visit the inside of a Mosque, but that is their way. I get it on one level but on another I don't see it as 'fair/rational'.

Likewise I don't see how this protest on separating church and state is any worse than the awful video Madonna did YEARS ago  in a church. I understand on an intellectual level that my 'foundation' of things is different but my gut still goes 'this is stupid' and wonder why they didn't just put the girls in a minimum security facilty and forget about them for 2 years? The PR angle of this is drawing more and more attention on somehting that could have been 'ignored' away by putting them somewhere quiet and secure. Simply saying 'here she is on the phone, and she'll be at prison X next week' would have done WONDERS for keeping this low key.

Couldn't agree with you more. Which leads directly to the second half of the thread title, return to the 'good old days'. I fear it's nothing something we'll never understand, how some countries work.

[Toral Stimins]

Anyway, she's found, in hospital.