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Looking for Legend of the Five Rings! L5R!

Started by Flying Tengu, May 26, 2015, 02:29:27 AM

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kckolbe

Here's the current school:

+1 Intelligence

Athletics, Hunting (Tracking), Defense, Lore: Spirit Realms, Lore: Shadowlands, Investigation, any one Skill

RANK ONE: A HUNTER’S EYES

An Owl must be hunting for prey at all times, for his enemies can appear anywhere.  You add +1k0 to all Skill rolls involving the Perception Trait when creatures from the Shadowlands or spirits are involved.  Additionally, when striking a creature from the Shadowlands or a Spirit Realm (including oni from Jigoku and hungry dead from Gaki-do), you add +1k0 to all damage rolls per School Rank.  When spending a Void Point on Lore: Shadowlands or Lore: Spirit Realms, add +3k1 instead of +1k1.

RANK TWO: KNOW THE PREY

Hunters do not confine themselves to rooting out their prey—they also learn how to fight the spirits and creatures of the Shadowlands, and spend considerable time studying their strengths and weaknesses.  Any time you are confronted by a Shadowlands creature or spirit, you may take a Free Action to roll the appropriate Lore / Intelligence at TN 20 to recall either one specific strength (such as Invulnerability) or one specific weakness (such as jade) for that creature.  You choose whether you recall a strength or a weakness, but the GM chooses the exact information. You may Raise on this roll to learn additional pieces of information—one strength or weakness per Raise, or to add +1k0 to damage rolls per raise.  Additionally, against all opponents, ignore damage reduction equal to School Rank.

RANK THREE: FINISH THE HUNT

At this rank the Hunter learns to capitalize on his tracking and knowledge and take his prey down.  You may make melee attacks as a Simple Action.

RANK FOUR: BE WARY OF PREDATORS

You may add your school rank to Armor TN, Perception checks, and Initiative checks against Shadowlands creatures and spirits.  In addition, you may spend a Void point to gain half of this bonus for an entire skirmish against any type of opponent.  If a Shadowlands creature or spirit, instead add your rank in the appropriate lore skill on top of the normal bonus.

RANK FIVE: ADAPT TO THE PREY

After attacking a Shadowlands creature or spirit, roll the appropriate Lore / Intelligence at TN equal to the opponent's Armor TN+5.  If the initial attack roll was a miss, then the Lore roll replaces the missed attack.  If the initial attack was a hit and the Lore roll succeeded, then add one Free Raise to the attack for damage.
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Ephiral

Seems interesting and thematic, but a touch strong in places. Specifically, the rank 2 and 5. Looking at a character I've got who happens to be a rank 2 bushi, if I were Owl school, I'd be routinely throwing 10k3 for both to-hit and damage - before accuracy raises or void expenditure. It's a narrowish field, but that's still pretty hefty for rank 2.

Rank 5 basically means I can stop worrying about missing basically ever, as even raising to a 50% miss chance means I connect 75% of the time - more, if I decide to blow a void on accuracy. So now I can afford to raise for damage to the cap. Without spending a single XP on imrpoving combat efficiency in any way (including Void, which is actually often a very good buy in terms of insight efficiency), this same character is now likely throwing 10k6 damage anytime the specialty applies.

This character is fairly high-XP for Rank 2, but... it wouldn't take much work to acquire the same level of efficiency.

kckolbe

There aren't any bonuses to hit in this school, so not seeing where 10k3 to hit comes in.  Rank 5 does make raise gambling a lot more appealing, but at a small penalty (The +5 TN).  And yes, there are tons of bonuses to damage, but bear in mind that spirits take half damage against normal weapons and that many Shadowlands creatures have a lot of damage reduction, which this class does little to mitigate, so the damage is a bit misleading.

Also bear in mind that specialized enemy classes do offer specialized bonuses.  Check out the Kuni Witch Hunter in particular, which is focused against Shadowlands enemies and characters who are Tainted, a specialized, though large, category of enemies.  I kind of used that class as the basis, strength wise.
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Pretty in Pink

Okay.  That school kinda murders my concept anyway.  XD  I was planning on at the very least (if it was approved at least) playing a member of the Toritaka (I think that's the family that lives in the Valley of Spirits) lending her expertise to the newly formed clan as a trainer in all things spirit related.

As for the age = experience, I like it, and I think that's an appropriate scaling for it.  As far as the party balance on male to female...  I tend to steer away from playing males myself, and I usually end up in games that are mainly female.  That said, I don't mind either direction.  The big thing to keep in mind is the allowances afforded to females in the era we're going to be playing in, and what that's going to mean for the female PCs.  For instance: Technically, a female could not be part of any school that was classified as a Bushi school.  However, they were ENCOURAGED to go into the Shugenja and Courtier schools.

As for progression speed, as long as there's at least a post a week, I'll be able to maintain interest easily enough.  And I've played with you before, kc, so I know you either post as you said, or you're at least letting us know OOC what's going on to prevent it.

If the concept I listed at the beginning still works, great, I'll start working on it, otherwise I'll need that five days to come up with a new concept.  Could always reprise one of my old concepts that I think I have a paper sheet floating around here in my room for.
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Ephiral

#79
Quote from: kckolbe on July 11, 2015, 05:17:39 AM
There aren't any bonuses to hit in this school, so not seeing where 10k3 to hit comes in.  Rank 5 does make raise gambling a lot more appealing, but at a small penalty (The +5 TN).  And yes, there are tons of bonuses to damage, but bear in mind that spirits take half damage against normal weapons and that many Shadowlands creatures have a lot of damage reduction, which this class does little to mitigate, so the damage is a bit misleading.

Also bear in mind that specialized enemy classes do offer specialized bonuses.  Check out the Kuni Witch Hunter in particular, which is focused against Shadowlands enemies and characters who are Tainted, a specialized, though large, category of enemies.  I kind of used that class as the basis, strength wise.

10k3 is the base to-hit for this guy without school bonuses. Am AFB at the moment and tend to keep out of the GM sections, but unless our enemies have piles of wounds and/or reduction, that's still a two-hit kill (average ~35 damage plus raises).

And yes, the Kuni Witch Hunter offers some nice bonuses against a limited number of targets - and this school's rank 2 is literally "Kuni, plus the ability to pull out bonus damage that doesn't count against your accuracy raise cap". That strikes me as... potentially problematic, and I figured it'd be a good idea to point it out. That said, I admit I forgot how beefy the Kuni 5 is, and withdraw my concerns on Owl 5 in light of it.

EDIT: Just so we're clear here, this is just me calling attention to things that might be an issue. If you're sure it's not a problem, I'll roll with it.

kckolbe

The Kuni 4 is pretty beefy as well.  And I'm not confident that it's not an issue, just confident that it isn't ridiculously out of balance.
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Flying Tengu

Looks pretty good to me, except I do note that none of the school skills are a weapon skill.  Obviously, you could just get one with xp, and you could use the 1 point in any skill to get a weapon skill, but it seems like it should be part of the core curriculum, so to speak.

hellrazoromega

Quote from: Ephiral on July 11, 2015, 09:30:22 AM
10k3 is the base to-hit for this guy without school bonuses. Am AFB at the moment and tend to keep out of the GM sections, but unless our enemies have piles of wounds and/or reduction, that's still a two-hit kill (average ~35 damage plus raises).

And yes, the Kuni Witch Hunter offers some nice bonuses against a limited number of targets - and this school's rank 2 is literally "Kuni, plus the ability to pull out bonus damage that doesn't count against your accuracy raise cap". That strikes me as... potentially problematic, and I figured it'd be a good idea to point it out. That said, I admit I forgot how beefy the Kuni 5 is, and withdraw my concerns on Owl 5 in light of it.

EDIT: Just so we're clear here, this is just me calling attention to things that might be an issue. If you're sure it's not a problem, I'll roll with it.

But unless we are talking about some nasty Oni a two hit kill is not unusual in L5R even at higher ranks (sometimes especially at higher ranks). With some Shadowlands creatures if you don't take them down in the first couple of rounds you are hosed because half the party is dead or dying. Because the ability is situational (only works against Shadowlands creatures or spirits) I don't see it as too powerful. If it worked against any opponent then I'd agree it was too powerful but since, even with the clan's focus, I doubt we will be encountering only the creatures this covers I don't think it is too bad.

I do have to ask, do tainted humans count as Shadowlands creatures for the purposes of this ability?

kckolbe

The one remaining skill can be used on any weapon.  Toritaka school uses spears, Kuni use heavy, and both use kenjutsu, so I didn't want to force one
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Ephiral

All right. As I said, this was more "That raises an eyebrow and might be a problem" than "This is totes broken change it now!". I do like that the school is open  on weapon selection. And the tainted-human question is a good one. I'm guessing no, but it's worth asking.

Would we even be able to start in the Owl school, given that it's just forming?

kckolbe

Just got home from work.

PiP: Out of curiosity, why does the school murder your concept?  It is kind of similar to the Toritaka Bushi school, after all.  As for experience from age, I am going to scale it down significantly to 1 point per year, and also require that all characters start at Insight Rank 1.  So yeah, barely a noticeable bonus, but too many people were uncomfortable with it, and a little bit is better than nothing, so it was an easy compromise.  As for your character concept, all characters will need to be members of the Owl Clan.  Having been a Toritaka (Crab) is perfectly acceptable and fitting.  As for training, the current school sensei is a Toritaka Bushi 1/Kuni Witch Hunter 4.  Were you wanting your char to be the sensei?  I removed you from skype a while back (I periodically remove everyone I haven't spoken to in a while), but you are welcome to re-add me and we can discuss concepts.  PM is fine as well, or posting here.

hellrazoromega: Tainted opponents do not receive the bonus.  That would have made the "favored enemy" bonuses a bit too broad, in my opinion. 

Ephiral: No worries.  I post things to get feedback, and your concerns were valid and based off comparisons to existing mechanics.  I am considering changing the +1k0 damage/level to just +1k0 and making Perception get the scaling bonus.  I am okay with a limited number of characters beginning as Owl bushi, having been trained before the clan was created.  The school could have existed as just one veteran samurai's technique, and just gained recognition due to being what the new Clan called for.
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HopeFox

#86
Hey guys! I would love to join in on this game - L5R is a particular favourite of mine.

The "new clan" setting is great, I think - it lets us assemble characters from all over Rokugan with all sorts of reasons for joining (or being sent to) the new clan to work together.

I do think the bushi school is a little bit on the powerful side, but then so are some of the canon schools, really. I would say that the Rank 3 ability is a bit too powerful - usually when a school gets "simple action attacks" at rank 3, it's restricted by target (e.g. tainted creatures) or weapon (e.g. katana).

Regarding age, I rather feel that the game would run more smoothly if all PCs were in the same rough age bracket (16-22, say), both to avoid worrying about XP differences, and to put everyone on the same social level. I don't think it's a big problem either way, though.

I have a few character ideas. I do love Lions, and I have an idea for a Lion bushi or monk who volunteered to join the new clan after a personal tragedy. Alternatively, a Scorpion bushi or courtier who was deemed "too useless to keep, but too loyal to execute". I can play male or female no problem, so if we're suffering a deficiency of males, I'm happy to fill it.

Edit: Oh, and on the topic of gender issues, I remember that in the first L5R game I played, not sure whether this was actually in the books or a creative interpretation of the setting, but in most families, the rule wasn't "women are not bushi", but "bushi are not women". If you were a female bushi and not an Otaku or Matsu, then you were considered, legally and socially, to be a man, and so it was dishonourable for a samurai-ko to act like a woman, or for anyone else to treat them as one. I thought it made for an interesting bit of social flavour.
If you're such an iconoclast, where were you when we trashed Constantinople?

kckolbe

Yeah, I am coming around to restricting Rank 3 a bit.  Might make that the one exception and allow tainted creatures as well as the other targets.

I just like having age disparity.  It helps build more varied relationships.  Also, I prefer playing older chars (well, older than teenager).  I feel the same about different status, though it's not as though a PC will start off as Clan Champion or anything, but there will be positions of minor status available to "qualified" PCs.  And the xp difference of 1 point a year is pretty minor.  I don't expect any difficulties from that minor imbalance.

Take your time to decide on a concept, really no rush.

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I love a wet nymph.  "Letting some guy have [her] just to have another woman is a losing trade"

Buffy: The Vampire Slayer(IC#2)
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HopeFox

On the subject of age, what sort of time progression are you planning on having? Will we have an adventure or two followed by several months of downtime? That would give us opportunities to do personal stuff that isn't worth playing through live, but is still very important for samurai, like land management, training, religious duties, and the respectable kind of courtship. It would also alleviate the problem of very young characters achieving high ranks - by the time we level up, we'll have at least a few more years behind us.
If you're such an iconoclast, where were you when we trashed Constantinople?

kckolbe

#89
I must admit that I hadn't thought of that.  I knew I invited you for a reason!  Can I hear everyone's thoughts?  Also, while I'm here, I am currently using the 3rd ed book to compare populations and get an idea of the Owl Clan's size and distribution.  If anyone has useful knowledge on that, completely down for hearing it, because the numbers I am getting mean a larger clan than expected.
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Buffy: The Vampire Slayer(IC#2)
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Ephiral

I'm all for the extended downtime, for basically the reasons stated. Will try to dig through Emerald Empire for demographics later tonight if I can.

hellrazoromega

#91
Quote from: kckolbe on July 11, 2015, 07:06:26 PM


hellrazoromega: Tainted opponents do not receive the bonus.  That would have made the "favored enemy" bonuses a bit too broad, in my opinion. 


Good I just wanted to be sure and I agree.


Quote from: HopeFox on July 11, 2015, 08:09:22 PM

Edit: Oh, and on the topic of gender issues, I remember that in the first L5R game I played, not sure whether this was actually in the books or a creative interpretation of the setting, but in most families, the rule wasn't "women are not bushi", but "bushi are not women". If you were a female bushi and not an Otaku or Matsu, then you were considered, legally and socially, to be a man, and so it was dishonourable for a samurai-ko to act like a woman, or for anyone else to treat them as one. I thought it made for an interesting bit of social flavour.
I suppose that would depend on the era, like many fictional settings, Rokugan seems to stay static in some of its cultural mores. In real life (while once again acknowledging that Rokugan is not Japan) Onna-bugeisha were viewed differently depending on era, though in some of those eras the sentiments you state above were close to the truth.

Quote from: kckolbe on July 11, 2015, 09:30:48 PM
I must admit that I hadn't thought of that.  I knew I invited you for a reason!  Can I hear everyone's thoughts?  Also, while I'm here, I am currently using the 3rd ed book to compare populations and get an idea of the Owl Clan's size and distribution.  If anyone has useful knowledge on that, completely down for hearing it, because the numbers I am getting mean a larger clan than expected.
I love the idea of extended downtime and think it makes sense.

I must admit that I grew up on RPGs long before the 90s when the 'everything and everyone must be balanced,' era of gaming came into being. So the idea of differing ages and XP levels does not bother me. In fact I think it is cool and different, so long as you offer XP on a 'curve', if you will, so the people on the lower end have a chance to get close or catch up.


Flying Tengu

Yeah, I'm really fond of the downtime idea.  I've always felt that relationships in these games can feel a bit rushed.  If two characters didn't know each other ahead of time, it'll seem as though they went from strangers to the closest of friends in a few weeks' time.  Having an off-camera period of several months from time to time seems like it would really help these relationships feel more natural.

kckolbe

All right, will include the occasional down time, which will allow time for training and crafting and such.  It seems the average Minor Clan/Imperial holding has a population of 4,613 samurai per territory, though that includes some large cities, which our clan doesn't have.  Our number will be much lower, but still nowhere near the "PCs are pretty much the only samurai" that I'd envisioned.  I may just edit the setting's numbers, leaving total population unchanged, but lowering the samurai population to 10% of what is listed.
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Buffy: The Vampire Slayer(IC#2)
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HopeFox

Quote from: kckolbe on July 12, 2015, 05:11:23 AM
All right, will include the occasional down time, which will allow time for training and crafting and such.  It seems the average Minor Clan/Imperial holding has a population of 4,613 samurai per territory, though that includes some large cities, which our clan doesn't have.  Our number will be much lower, but still nowhere near the "PCs are pretty much the only samurai" that I'd envisioned.  I may just edit the setting's numbers, leaving total population unchanged, but lowering the samurai population to 10% of what is listed.

It's entirely plausible that the new Owl Clan territory will have fewer samurai than the Rokugani average. A lot of the Crab and Crane samurai who owned land in there would have vacated, if they weren't drafted into becoming Owls. Also, there's a difference between "person of samurai caste" and "person who is likely to be going around actively fighting bandits and monsters and stuff". Some will have their hands full just administering their own lands, and others just don't care. Filter out all of the samurai who have important official duties or their own ties to worry about, and the number of samurai who are actually available to be troubleshooters can be quite low.
If you're such an iconoclast, where were you when we trashed Constantinople?

hellrazoromega

I would say that population is good. Even with 10% or 46 samurai, as HopeFox said some will be spouses, courtiers and what not. Also have you envisioned this game eventually getting to the point where we might have a few NPC bushi serving us, whom we could set to task during downtime reports? Just curious because that could have an impact on what a good number would be.

kckolbe

Long post.

So, I decided to use the number of samurai listed (and using samurai in the meaning of caste, not profession.  Warrior samurai are called bushi), but make some changes to the concept of schools.  Basically, not every samurai attends a school.  This shouldn't be surprising, as there are rules in the book for it.  In this world, however, *most* samurai don't attend them.  Why aren't any school-less samurai ever mentioned?  Two reasons.  One, most of those unschooled samurai prove too inconsequential to ever have their names recorded.  Two, those that do are offered to train at a school, which is invariably accepted.

Second, of those who do go to a school, most don't go to the most prestigious ones.  By rough mental tally, there are a little over 60 noteworthy "basic" schools in the books.  Over 1/4th of them are shugenja schools, despite shugenja being quite rare (they are mentioned a lot because they are more likely to be significant individually, but in total numbers they aren't significant).  I figure that there is no way such a small number of schools could train even CLOSE to the 1,436,000 samurai currently living in Rokugan.  Again, almost all the samurai we HEAR about did, but that is because those samurai are well connected and/or very gifted.

I did a lot of math today.  I also made a lot of assumptions and factored in a lot of personal bias.  I am going to spill almost a lot of it.  If there is something game-breakingly upsetting about them to you, please let me know.  I will say that I feel very good about this.  After all, this setting is largely about talking about the "glossed over" details of Rokugan, so why not talk about the insignificant samurai who, in both history and every other game, are nothing but a number?  Your characters, for the first part of the game, will be among those samurai.  Possibly talented, possibly even a little connected, but also, as far as Rokugan history is concerned, meaningless. 

That will change.  After your first adventure you will jump to Insight Rank 2 and be significantly stronger than at least 24.5095% of the samurai in Rokugan.  Those of you with a little status or glory or allies might find yourselves promoted to ranks that mean nothing outside your Clan, and seemingly very little within it, but we won't stop there.  Yes, you will all have the chance to be placed in charge of other samurai, and to advise those above you, and have your words have real impact, at least to those directly surrounding you.  A word on Insight Rank.  I have decided that Rank 8 is going to be the cap on this game.  Not only will your characters never surpass that, but a higher Insight will not exist.  If an Insight Rank 8 opponent is killed without the help of significant NPCs, expect an epilogue to be on the way.

So, without further delay, here is a breakdown of all 1,436,000 samurai in Rokugan by Insight Rank, whether or not they attended a samurai school, and whether or not that school was known Empire-wide.

Rank   Total      Unschooled   Common      Great      Percent
1   351,956      316,760        28,157          7,039     24.5095
2   853,792      683,034      119,530        51,227     59.4563
3   204,448      143,114        36,800        24,534     14.2373
4   22,112          14,467          4,823          4,822       1.6791
5   1,348                 674              270             404       0.0938
6   270                      49              108             113       0.0188
7   62                          8                19               35       0.0043
8   13                          1                  3                 9       0.0009
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(From the Penis Game) Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Penis
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Buffy: The Vampire Slayer(IC#2)
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HopeFox

Quote from: kckolbe on July 12, 2015, 07:45:13 PM
Long post.

So, I decided to use the number of samurai listed (and using samurai in the meaning of caste, not profession.  Warrior samurai are called bushi), but make some changes to the concept of schools.  Basically, not every samurai attends a school.  This shouldn't be surprising, as there are rules in the book for it.  In this world, however, *most* samurai don't attend them.  Why aren't any school-less samurai ever mentioned?  Two reasons.  One, most of those unschooled samurai prove too inconsequential to ever have their names recorded.  Two, those that do are offered to train at a school, which is invariably accepted.

It's also important to note that the majority of samurai don't belong to the great families, but to vassal families of those families. There's a section about them in one of the books (Emerald Empire, I think), and they generally aren't as notable as the great families.

QuoteI did a lot of math today.  I also made a lot of assumptions and factored in a lot of personal bias.  I am going to spill almost a lot of it.  If there is something game-breakingly upsetting about them to you, please let me know.  I will say that I feel very good about this.  After all, this setting is largely about talking about the "glossed over" details of Rokugan, so why not talk about the insignificant samurai who, in both history and every other game, are nothing but a number?  Your characters, for the first part of the game, will be among those samurai.  Possibly talented, possibly even a little connected, but also, as far as Rokugan history is concerned, meaningless. 

I like this. I like the idea of starting out in the shadows, because that's where good stories start.

The numbers look good. Demographics are always hard in games like this, and I'm willing to suspend some disbelief if the numbers start conflicting down the line.
If you're such an iconoclast, where were you when we trashed Constantinople?

Marie Reynolds

I am cool with the down time idea it would add a lot of opportunity for development of characters and ties between them. The population  things is a good thing to keep in mind and if you want to keep the population relatively close to the average numbers could have ronin  fill those spots. Also will this minor clan have more then one family and as it grows will different schools  get made such as a courtiers or possibly a shugenja school since  we will be facing spiritual threats.

kckolbe

The Great Clans books list some of them, too, I think.  I think the minor vassal families are a nice touch for larger clans, but I don't see our Clan starting out with any, given that most of those names are granted due to service to the parent clan.  I looked up the size of armies in Rokugan, and it was not pretty.  The standard set by the Lion is 144,000 troops (all samurai), which, suffice to say, the Owl do not have.  It was weird reading the size descriptions, because they start so small and then explode.  This information was taken from Masters of War, 3rd ed, by the way.

Squadron: 20 men plus 1 sergeant.  So far, so good, great opportunity for a low-ranking samurai.
Company: 7 squadrons, plus a lieutenant and 5 support officers.  Again, no issues there, only 150 people, less for a more efficient clan.
Legion: I expected this to be where things exploded, since legion is such a grand word, but it's only 5 companies plus a captain.  That's only 750 people or so.
Army: Consists of FORTY-EIGHT LEGIONS (about 36,000 samurai).  What the fuck? 
Four armies compose the total force (144,000)

That number, 144,000, is just under half the number of total samurai the Lion have.  Remember that bushi and shugenja are counted in that number, and presumably several courtiers among the support staffs.  So we have a good idea of about what percentage of a clan's samurai is devoted full time to military life.  I imagine that smaller clans fill some of that with reserves that spend normal days fulfilling some other function, making them less well-trained.  The Crane, for example, only have 213,000 samurai, but I also imagine that they require fewer courtiers to manage their affairs, possibly devoting a higher percentage of troops to the army.  I should note that peasants aren't even mentioned, so I assume all of them work fields and such unless conscripted.

Our clan will only have about 2 legions worth of samurai in the proper army, making them not even a blip on the radar, though they should feel safe given that Toturi himself created them, and probably wouldn't tolerate anyone fucking with them.

***

As for other schools, I'd much rather those potential sensei be "unlocked" through gameplay and brought into the clan, or discovered from within the ranks of the nameless.  Kind of a shame, since I had a wonderful idea for a martial courtier class, but I wanted to leave room for characters to be recruited as sensei or for PCs to eventually start their own school.
Ons/Offs  A/A  Oath of the Drake
(From the Penis Game) Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Penis
I love a wet nymph.  "Letting some guy have [her] just to have another woman is a losing trade"

Buffy: The Vampire Slayer(IC#2)
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