Dark M's Resurrection - A high-powered D&D 3.5 game (NC-Exotic)(Closed)

[Kunoichi]

Mostly, i figured that with the resources at our disposal, protecting a phylactery isnt hard. Plus, there is one big difference that Rejuvenation still leaves me vulnerable to effects like Trap The Soul, which a lich is immune to since their soul is in the phylactery.So its still a tradeoff of sorts.

Ability damage is fine, though id note that knife to the soul also uses an attack roll since its a psychic strike enhancer. Not sure on my SA dice, im using a Guecubu chassis (4 HD), that leaves 12 class levels to fill. To be fair, I'll self cap at 8d6, the max a 15th level rogue could get.

Ah, fair enough, then.  Consider What Never Lived Cannot Die approved, as well, then.



And speaking of getting things approved, I decided to bring back my character from the previous game as well, albeit with a few changes.

Torahime

Torahime, CR 16
Succubus (CR 7) Monster of Legend (CR +2) Iaijutsu Master 10 (CR +5) Archfiend (tanar'ri)
Additional Spell-Like Abilities
   At-will - cloud of knives (PHBII), whirling blade (SpC)
   3/day - greater magic weapon, phantom battle (PHBII), symbol of stunning
   1/day - blade barrier, body outside body (CompArc)
Additional Weaknesses
Live by the Sword (Ex) Spells with blade in their name, such as flame blade or blade barrier, gain a +10 sacred bonus to overcome Torahime's spell resistance and a +5 sacred bonus on their attack rolls against her (if any).  Similarly, weapons enchanted by spells such as blade of blood gain a +5 sacred bonus on any attack rolls they make against her, and their damage automatically bypasses Torahime's damage reduction.
Shadow Pounce (Ex) Torahime knows how to attack swiftly from the shadows.  Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her dimension door and greater teleport abilities), she may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.  Torahime must have line of sight on her intended target from her original location, and the spot to which she teleports must be a place from which she can launch a melee attack at the intended target.
Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day, Torahime can automatically summon 1d6+2 Caligrosto demons (CR 6) or two 20-HD advanced Caligrosto demons (CR 12). This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.
Dimension Door (Su) Torahime can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 16th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only Torahime, who never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.
Unearthly Dodge (Ex) Torahime cannot be caught flat-footed and reacts to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so.  She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC even if blinded or struck by an invisible attacker.  However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
   Additionally, Torahime can avoid magical and unusual attacks with great agility.  If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage, and even on a failed Reflex saving throw she only takes half damage.
   Unearthly Dodge can only be used if Torahime is wearing light armor or no armor, and she does not gain the benefit of the ability if rendered helpless.

And one of the big changes for her is going to be a slight nerf to the Iaijutsu Master prestige class feature Strike from the Void, cutting it down from adding the Iaijutsu Master's charisma modifier to every single die of Iaijutsu Focus damage to simply adding it a single time to the total damage.  Given that Torahime is a succubus, this should keep her a deadly combatant without taking her damage to utterly absurd levels.


Edit: And I just remembered this.

So, from the two submitted characters it looks like a gish-type and a mixed martial/incarnum character?  Also!  What are the thoughts on the Cerebrosis feat (Dragon Magazine #330) and potentially using said feat with psionics instead of spellcasting?  Or does that drift too far away thematically?

Having finally taken a proper look at Dragon Magazine #330, I'd say that the Cerebrosis feat is alright, but that converting the Cerebrotic spells to powers wouldn't really work out all that well.  Are you wanting to put together more of a psionic, Far Realms-themed sort of character, or...?

[PaleEnchantress]

I'm making sure my interest is properly stated.  Zaer and Kunoichi already have an idea what I'm doing.  I think I know Echidnas baseline now.  Her reproductive process is alien enough she isn't technically any specific gender,  but she's woman enough for female pronouns.

Adult Hex Dragon with the templates: Lawful Arc Dragon, Half Fey,  Radiant,  and Ghoulish.   She doesn't look Draconic though I already have the perfect image for her.  Let me see if I can upload it to the wiki in a min. 

Echidna

Her defining ability is "Matris De Malificarum" (means mother of evil).  Five times a day she gives birth to any living creature up to her CR -1. They last a few minutes based on her Cha before dissolving. She can birth templated creatures but is limited to things that are printed so she can't just birth a level 15 PC character. Her spawn also get a random ability from a special table.
She can also attempt to impregnate others who have a round to decide if they can't afford it so better abort it.  No matter what it's going to be messy but it isn't going to come near killing anything but the lowest level hosts. 
This same ability gives her a profane aura that makes any pregnant female near her miscarry. 

I want to involve some sort of mechanic that either gives her incentive to mate with powerful men,  or alternatively,  enslave many fertile males and keep them on a stud farm where they are "milked" for her.  In this case she feeds off their captive sexual energy and gets power for the number she has not their individual power.  If approved both could even apply. 

I am looking for suggestions on how to implement that.  It needs to either be a nice and noticeable but ultimately not that big a deal in order to be part of her Matris de Malificarum ability.  Or have it be good enough to be character defining and take up her second special ability slot. 

I have a really good thematic weakness for her too.  More or less it's her foil. She is an evil matriarch who sacrifices her children for her own benefit. Her weakness is the very unknown concept to her of the inverse. - A father who sacrifices himself to protect his children in an act of true love. 

[Sain]

I'm making sure my interest is properly stated.  Zaer and Kunoichi already have an idea what I'm doing.  I think I know Echidnas baseline now.  Her reproductive process is alien enough she isn't technically any specific gender,  but she's woman enough for female pronouns.

Adult Hex Dragon with the templates: Lawful Arc Dragon, Half Fey,  Radiant,  and Ghoulish.   She doesn't look Draconic though I already have the perfect image for her.  Let me see if I can upload it to the wiki in a min. 

Echidna

Her defining ability is "Matris De Malificarum" (means mother of evil).  Five times a day she gives birth to any living creature up to her CR -1. They last a few minutes based on her Cha before dissolving. She can birth templated creatures but is limited to things that are printed so she can't just birth a level 15 PC character. Her spawn also get a random ability from a special table.
She can also attempt to impregnate others who have a round to decide if they can't afford it so better abort it.  No matter what it's going to be messy but it isn't going to come near killing anything but the lowest level hosts. 
This same ability gives her a profane aura that makes any pregnant female near her miscarry. 

I want to involve some sort of mechanic that either gives her incentive to mate with powerful men,  or alternatively,  enslave many fertile males and keep them on a stud farm where they are "milked" for her.  In this case she feeds off their captive sexual energy and gets power for the number she has not their individual power.  If approved both could even apply. 

I am looking for suggestions on how to implement that.  It needs to either be a nice and noticeable but ultimately not that big a deal in order to be part of her Matris de Malificarum ability.  Or have it be good enough to be character defining and take up her second special ability slot. 

I have a really good thematic weakness for her too.  More or less it's her foil. She is an evil matriarch who sacrifices her children for her own benefit. Her weakness is the very unknown concept to her of the inverse. - A father who sacrifices himself to protect his children in an act of true love.

Heh, I was also very close to picking lawful arc dragon. They are quite nifty :P

e. Love the weakness.

[Zaer Darkwail]

Hmm.  The one big problem is that phylacteries need to be protected, while the Ghost's rejuvenation ability, as-written, has no real downsides once you reach a high enough level to auto-succeed on the check.  I suppose it's ultimately not that big a deal, since being taken out of the action for 2d4 weeks will still be a bit of a setback, especially at the pace that play-by-post games go...

Zaer, what are your thoughts on this one?

You approved it already but I add my opinion that it is approved. Because even if turns char immortal in sense, the char is disabled for very long time. Secondly someone can someway or other use power which forces char to roll nat 1/automatic failure via a curse (which this case can lead to automatic failure to respawn). Or that someone tears/destroy or changes planar layer so dramatic fashion it no longer exist or suits for rejuvenation. So not absolute defense but a very hard to counter by most means.

Torahime

Torahime, CR 16
Succubus (CR 7) Monster of Legend (CR +2) Iaijutsu Master 10 (CR +5) Archfiend (tanar'ri)
Additional Spell-Like Abilities
   At-will - cloud of knives (PHBII), whirling blade (SpC)
   3/day - greater magic weapon, phantom battle (PHBII), symbol of stunning
   1/day - blade barrier, body outside body (CompArc)
Additional Weaknesses
Live by the Sword (Ex) Spells with blade in their name, such as flame blade or blade barrier, gain a +10 sacred bonus to overcome Torahime's spell resistance and a +5 sacred bonus on their attack rolls against her (if any).  Similarly, weapons enchanted by spells such as blade of blood gain a +5 sacred bonus on any attack rolls they make against her, and their damage automatically bypasses Torahime's damage reduction.
Shadow Pounce (Ex) Torahime knows how to attack swiftly from the shadows.  Any time she uses an ability, spell, or effect with the teleportation descriptor (for example, her dimension door and greater teleport abilities), she may execute a full attack upon completion of the teleportation.  Torahime must have line of sight on her intended target from her original location, and the spot to which she teleports must be a place from which she can launch a melee attack at the intended target.
Summon Demon (Sp) Once per day, Torahime can automatically summon 1d6+2 Caligrosto demons (CR 6) or two 20-HD advanced Caligrosto demons (CR 12). This ability is the equivalent of a 9th-level spell.
Dimension Door (Su) Torahime can teleport, as dimension door (caster level 16th), once per round as a free action. The ability affects only Torahime, who never appears within a solid object and can act immediately after teleporting.
Unearthly Dodge (Ex) Torahime cannot be caught flat-footed and reacts to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so.  She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC even if blinded or struck by an invisible attacker.  However, she still loses her Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized.
   Additionally, Torahime can avoid magical and unusual attacks with great agility.  If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage, and even on a failed Reflex saving throw she only takes half damage.
   Unearthly Dodge can only be used if Torahime is wearing light armor or no armor, and she does not gain the benefit of the ability if rendered helpless.

Char approved, just couple pointers; you should add to Shadow Pounce ability that it does not work in areas where teleport is blocked (nor works if area she is going teleport to blocks teleporting). I can allow also that if she so desires, she can strike multiple targets in range of the teleporting power (strike each foe once basically), so long total distance traveled between targets do not surpass range of the teleport power. So example dimension door would have 500'ft range and her foes are spread out 100'ft apart and there is six of them and one of them is adjacent to her, she can do attack on one adjacent to her, then five more attacks between 100'ft range of her targets and sixth foe she cannot reach to strike.

Also whirling blade you could add Sculpt Spell metamagic feature, so instead of line your char can take various shapes with her melee attacks magically.

PaleEnchantress: Like the concept and like the pic, albeit with pic choice I wondered why you did not go for naga (CR choice between 7 or 10) or yuan-ti abomination? More serpent like base races and giving more room for templates/classes (albeit arch dragon template is pretty nice but you could in theory apply template to naga or yuan-ti to count as 'true dragon' or take it as one archfiend abilities to 'count' as dragon).

What comes rules how to make pregnancy/birthing theme; how use summoning ooze summon monster ability as a base? Basically your daily limit of 'birthing' is measured in your own HD amount of total and 'birthing' takes standard action on your part and the spawned creature lasts 20 rounds by default. Every creature spawned must be somekind base creature where you add +4 on two stats (augmenting summoning build into the power) and also get random mutation from a tablet in addition to that. Also it can include side notes that this same augmenting can happen in 'natural' pregnancy as well (+4 to two stats and random mutation but instead 20 rounds duration the birthed child reach full mature size in 20 rounds since birth but it also makes child age 20 times faster with remaining life span). The pregnancy itself takes natural 9 months to proceed to the birth (so natural process takes longer but results in instant minion which lives longer than most).

Then separately you have power able to empower/recharge your birthing power in having harem of men around you which you milk regularly sexual energy/cum. It can be used to restore your birthing power or restore spell slots (draining men makes men suffer ability dmg and from that we can base math formula how much dmg you need inflict to gain additional birthing HD and what spells to recover). Also process can function to give substance (a additional source of it than just only source of it).

Then third power could related to 'control' of children; sort reversed version of Unholy Scion familiar geas (make any children birthed loyal to you by default). Also can serve as spot where place rules of longer term pregnancy if first power feels bloated (by Kunoichi as I trust on her judgement on this matter more than mine).

The special weakness theme is cool but need think mechanics; would such event (when performed front of you) work like automatic banishment? Meaning if father steps front of you protect it's children from you, you are compelled to leave man and children alone and then make hasty departure back to your own plane layer (so it's not damage buff but rather triggered banishment). Alternatively you could fall automatically into geas/charm to love the man (genuine manner) and adopt it's children as your own and you loving the children as well (so sort distracting weakness and sort creepy one for paladin father suddenly having hands full appeasing a monstrous demon wife). Part of falling in love is that you abandon exclusively all else other activity and you will hate/attack anyone trying break you or husband up (and so allies are faced on tricky situation as well).

However charm breaks if husband harms any of your children (not just husband's children but those which you spawned earlier before meeting him).

[PaleEnchantress]

You approved it already but I add my opinion that it is approved. Because even if turns char immortal in sense, the char is disabled for very long time. Secondly someone can someway or other use power which forces char to roll nat 1/automatic failure via a curse (which this case can lead to automatic failure to respawn). Or that someone tears/destroy or changes planar layer so dramatic fashion it no longer exist or suits for rejuvenation. So not absolute defense but a very hard to counter by most enemies.

PaleEnchantress: Like the concept and like the pic, albeit with pic choice I wondered why you did not go for naga (CR choice between 7 or 10) or yuan-ti abomination? More serpent like base races and giving more room for templates/classes (albeit arch dragon template is pretty nice but you could in theory apply template to naga or yuan-ti to count as 'true dragon' or take it as one archfiend abilities to 'count' as dragon).

What comes rules how to make pregnancy/birthing theme; how use summoning ooze summon monster ability as a base? Basically your daily limit of 'birthing' is measured in your own HD amount of total and 'birthing' takes standard action on your part and the spawned creature lasts 20 rounds by default. Every creature spawned must be somekind base creature where you add +4 on two stats (augmenting summoning build into the power) and also get random mutation from a tablet in addition to that. Also it can include side notes that this same augmenting can happen in 'natural' pregnancy as well (+4 to two stats and random mutation but instead 20 rounds duration the birthed child reach full mature size in 20 rounds since birth but it also makes child age 20 times faster with remaining life span). The pregnancy itself takes natural 9 months to proceed to the birth (so natural process takes longer but results in instant minion which lives longer than most).

Then separately you have power able to empower/recharge your birthing power in having harem of men around you which you milk regularly sexual energy/cum. It can be used to restore your birthing power or restore spell slots (draining men makes men suffer ability dmg and from that we can base math formula how much dmg you need inflict to gain additional birthing HD and what spells to recover). Also process can function to give substance (a additional source of it than just only source of it).

Then third power could related to 'control' of children; sort reversed version of Unholy Scion familiar geas (make any children birthed loyal to you by default). Also can serve as spot where place rules of longer term pregnancy if first power feels bloated (by Kunoichi as I trust on her judgement on this matter more than mine).

The special weakness theme is cool but need think mechanics; would such event (when performed front of you) work like automatic banishment? Meaning if father steps front of you protect it's children from you, you are compelled to leave man and children alone and then make hasty departure back to your own plane layer (so it's not damage buff but rather triggered banishment). Alternatively you could fall automatically into geas/charm to love the man (genuine manner) and adopt it's children as your own and you loving the children as well (so sort distracting weakness and sort creepy one for paladin father suddenly having hands full appeasing a monstrous demon wife). Part of falling in love is that you abandon exclusively all else other activity and you will hate/attack anyone trying break you or husband up (and so allies are faced on tricky situation as well).

However charm breaks if husband harms any of your children (not just husband's children but those which you spawned earlier before meeting him).

Just my two cents on the immortality ability.  It's neat and flavorful but isn't strong enough to worry about.  My reasoning is instead of making himself able to come back when killed he could have taken a more standard power and be much harder to kill in the first place. Plus we have resources in this game capable of bringing a dead PC back.  Bypassing the need to hop to sigil and pay for a true resurrection scroll is convenient but not game changing. So don't over value this. What Is great is this ability works well for role playing since being impossible to permakill is going to affect ones actions.  Facing and enemy with as attrition "Kill me 1000 times and I'll still haunt you,  but I only need to kill you once. "

Okay back to my own powers.  The summoning ooze is a neat monster but making my mother of monsters ability based on it is a waste.  You are a veteran D&D player.  You know how unpopular "Cast a spell any wizard your level could cast" abilities are.  They move from bad to near worthless when you are a wizard who can cast the spell anyway.  - At it's base the summoning ooze  ability upgraded for my hit dice is more or less "Cast summon monster 8 several times a day"  If I want that ill play a wizard. It's certainly unworthy of the terrifying monstrous birth this Lilith in the making is feared for. 

As for my base creature being Naga or something?  Hex dragon has a much more badass chassis.  And really what abilities does a hex dragon have to say what it looks like . 2 claws,  2 wing buffets (basically more arms) , a tail slap that can easily be serpentine.  A (snake)  bite.  Hex dragons physical attacks are diminished in power compared to a normal dragon which fits her comely form.  The breath weapon is even a potent poison.  Fitting the sexy snake lady theme.  Add the improved sorcerer casting and the retributive hexes and the hex dragon is fucking awesome to work with.  I almost went Ulitharid though,  6 tentacles might as well be six arms and the improved grab would have aided forced impregnation then 13the level telepathy manifestation w a s tempting.  Still hex dragon is more bad ass.  Can you even disagree there that it's just really awesome choice?

As for the weakness I came up with mechanics and decided to go with it being a very specific weakness that's hard to exploit but devastating when done.  The father must be of a sexually virile age and sacrifices his life and soul to be forever bound to echidna.  He is her damed chew toy forever.  However.  . .

Echidna and all of her children take 5d6 divine damage per round when within 60 ft of the protected child (who does not need to be a baby it can be an adult)  or the site of the sacrifice for a year and a day.  Then the father either choosesvto protect his family which is his lover and up to two of his offspring.  Or to double the protection and focus on a single offspring. 

If the family option is chosen the protected beings are warded permanently by a double strength magic circle and lesser globe of invulnerability.  Except this magic circle works specifically against Echidna and any of her off spring.  Not even a wish can remove this protection.  If concentrated in a single offspring the magic circle strength is quadruple (+8 bonus)  and the protection is that of a greater globe of in vulnerability.  In either case the protected individuals automatically bypass the DR and SR of Echidna and her children.  Harming Echidna or her offspring does not hamper the protection.  It's permanent,  except for the damaging aura.  The only plus is the father becomes a ghost forever enslaved by Echidna.  He must fulfill her every desire except harm those he died to protect.  The sacrifice must also be made as an act of true love be the father for those he seeks to protect.  Thus the ritual fails (the man simply dies)  if motivated by something such as revenge against Echidna. 

I do like recharging my pregnancy and spells through having the man slaves fucked so hard they take ability damage. 

The natural pregnancy route idea is okay but I like Echidna simply being able to keep one of her spawn from melting away through her force of will.  This is quick and easy for her to do which reinforces her children being pawns to her since it encourages her to revoke the protection letting her "favored" child die to keep one around that's temporarily more useful.  Then killing that one when it's no longer needed. 

I've got ideas for mechanics written down.  Hopefully I'll post them fully for approval tomorrow.  As her second special ability I'm going spell casting but going to lower the levels provided to give it a bit of an extra twist. 

[LizzieV]

I also wouldn't worry about immortality type things unless the idea is to make a game with disposable players since at our level true resurrection shouldn't be an impossible task. It's a time and money saver but that's about it. I'd be more worried about things that bypass immunities than anything else since they either completely remove categories of enemies from being viable combatants (since ability scores become the new hit points) or involve coming up with something that says 'immunity to immunity resistance' which just feels off. It's part of why I didn't write in 'can stun things with immunity to stun, can blind things normally immune to blind' in mine, which I am now curious about if that would pass muster.

For example, the CR 25 adamaine golem has a Cha of 1, not usually a problem considering it's immune but cha damage that bypasses the immunity to it would render it down in a single easy attack. Granted that particular golem's case you'd start having to decide which immunity is better than other immunities since it gets into the 'golem has immunity to Spells and Su abilities' in its listing.

Granted none of it may matter since it might just be a story-based game with basically no combat making actual stats more indicators and frameworks for roleplay rather than something actively considered. I'm not sure.

[Zaer Darkwail]

We do plan use stats and there will be combat against powerful foes involved. But battles will be not main theme but more as scheming.

[Green Goo Theory]

Edit: And I just remembered this.
Having finally taken a proper look at Dragon Magazine #330, I'd say that the Cerebrosis feat is alright, but that converting the Cerebrotic spells to powers wouldn't really work out all that well.  Are you wanting to put together more of a psionic, Far Realms-themed sort of character, or...?

Mostly bouncing ideas around for things that I've never been allowed to play previously.  I think I just got a little excited and overwhelmed trying to mentally juggle too many ideas at once.  The puppeteer is still in mind or maybe a body-horrroresque (Nurgle loves you!) Silthilar. 

[Zaer Darkwail]

Well, if think of puppeteer, I advice you check my Insidious Corruptor PrC changes I made (I combined some stuff from Mind bender PrC). Main power of PrC with having several permanent charms and then finally permanent single thrall via dominate person.

[TheGlyphstone]

I also wouldn't worry about immortality type things unless the idea is to make a game with disposable players since at our level true resurrection shouldn't be an impossible task. It's a time and money saver but that's about it. I'd be more worried about things that bypass immunities than anything else since they either completely remove categories of enemies from being viable combatants (since ability scores become the new hit points) or involve coming up with something that says 'immunity to immunity resistance' which just feels off. It's part of why I didn't write in 'can stun things with immunity to stun, can blind things normally immune to blind' in mine, which I am now curious about if that would pass muster.

For example, the CR 25 adamaine golem has a Cha of 1, not usually a problem considering it's immune but cha damage that bypasses the immunity to it would render it down in a single easy attack. Granted that particular golem's case you'd start having to decide which immunity is better than other immunities since it gets into the 'golem has immunity to Spells and Su abilities' in its listing.

Granted none of it may matter since it might just be a story-based game with basically no combat making actual stats more indicators and frameworks for roleplay rather than something actively considered. I'm not sure.

While you do have a valid concern here, it's also sort of an inevitable consequence of playing at this power level. Even in the middle-double-digits of 3.5, there are simply so many ways to acquire multiply redundant immunities to pretty much anything you want, so the game morphs into a contest of finding which particular obscure attack form your opponent forgot to get an immunity to, when rocket-tagging them before they can do the same in return. It's not a terribly fun way to play, and tends to limit the sort of character you builds to Full Caster Or Go Home...an ordinary rogue, for instance, might as well not exist after level 15 or so because of how many ways you can become immune to sneak attack.

The alternative solution is to open that floodgate of immunity-breakers, immunity-breaker-immunities, and so forth, and just trust in our ability as players/GM to not abuse it. Zaer's divinations-focused character has a unique special to overcome immunities to divination effects, since otherwise his central character concept would be severely hampered. Lockpicke's character is heavily invested in dealing ability/energy drain through melee, and projects an aura that suppresses those immunities - without it, he's just a midrange melee brawler. My character, similarly, is thematically built around being halfway between a demon and a ghost, including the ability-damage common to incorporeal undead. Without that, he'd just be sneaky and lack any true offense. It's less about cowboys-and-bandits, more about spending that 'unique' slot to fully realize whatever concept you're pursuing.

For you, I don't think you would need an immunity-piercer mostly because you've already diversified your attack patterns. You can stun, blind, use druidic magic that has some seriously nasty offensive options, beat people up in melee, or swarm them with undead. That sort of versatility is its own way of getting around immunities, because you're far more likely to have something at your disposal a target didn't guard against.

[Lockepick]

I remember.  I’m trying to aim for a slightly lower power level this time around, so dropping it back down to 60’ brings it more in line with abilities typical of high level non-epic monsters.

Just wanted to acknowledge that I saw this, and I'm totally on board with the concept (of slightly lower power level). 60' works fine for me! Added the 'Mind-Affecting' tags to Aura of Inebriation and reduced the aura on Connoisseur of Life to 60'.

[Green Goo Theory]

Well, if think of puppeteer, I advice you check my Insidious Corruptor PrC changes I made (I combined some stuff from Mind bender PrC). Main power of PrC with having several permanent charms and then finally permanent single thrall via dominate person.

I'd consider it since it reduces minionmancy but it's a spellcasting PrC and not a manifesting one.  That and technically the minionmancy of a Thallherd thematically fits with the backstory or how/why this particular Puppeteer became a villain and his(her?  it?) downfall.   Since I'm also kind of using this game to stretch my legs with things normally banned from play in other groups I'd rather stick to psionics instead of magic.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'd consider it since it reduces minionmancy but it's a spellcasting PrC and not a manifesting one.  That and technically the minionmancy of a Thallherd thematically fits with the backstory or how/why this particular Puppeteer became a villain and his(her?  it?) downfall.   Since I'm also kind of using this game to stretch my legs with things normally banned from play in other groups I'd rather stick to psionics instead of magic.

"+1 manifesting level" for "+1 spellcasting level" is one of the most trivial substitutions you can do in 3.x. It's even a recommended modification for the Mindbender PrC already, so if you do like Insidious Corruptor assuming you can use a Manifester variant of it is the next best thing to guaranteed.

[LizzieV]

While you do have a valid concern here, it's also sort of an inevitable consequence of playing at this power level. Even in the middle-double-digits of 3.5, there are simply so many ways to acquire multiply redundant immunities to pretty much anything you want, so the game morphs into a contest of finding which particular obscure attack form your opponent forgot to get an immunity to, when rocket-tagging them before they can do the same in return. It's not a terribly fun way to play, and tends to limit the sort of character you builds to Full Caster Or Go Home...an ordinary rogue, for instance, might as well not exist after level 15 or so because of how many ways you can become immune to sneak attack.

The alternative solution is to open that floodgate of immunity-breakers, immunity-breaker-immunities, and so forth, and just trust in our ability as players/GM to not abuse it. Zaer's divinations-focused character has a unique special to overcome immunities to divination effects, since otherwise his central character concept would be severely hampered. Lockpicke's character is heavily invested in dealing ability/energy drain through melee, and projects an aura that suppresses those immunities - without it, he's just a midrange melee brawler. My character, similarly, is thematically built around being halfway between a demon and a ghost, including the ability-damage common to incorporeal undead. Without that, he'd just be sneaky and lack any true offense. It's less about cowboys-and-bandits, more about spending that 'unique' slot to fully realize whatever concept you're pursuing.

For you, I don't think you would need an immunity-piercer mostly because you've already diversified your attack patterns. You can stun, blind, use druidic magic that has some seriously nasty offensive options, beat people up in melee, or swarm them with undead. That sort of versatility is its own way of getting around immunities, because you're far more likely to have something at your disposal a target didn't guard against.

You do make some good points there. I'm also mostly guessing there's a good chance we'll just be talking with each other and not fighting alongside each other really unless for some reason we gain immunity to each other. The drown aura for example would mean if that character was in melee it would be bad for any/most of us to be as well considering we don't count as deep sea creatures and outsiders have to breathe. The breath can be overcome easy enough with a spell but the crushing damage is a little threatening over time. It would take a while to make the save DC high enough but the 'roll a 1 and take 16 dice of damage' is a little daunting to have every round from an ally. I'm hoping that we have some sort of collective ability to not be hampered by each other if we are expected to work together.

[TheGlyphstone]

That's easy enough to fix if the aura projector can selectively exclude allies from it. Methu's aura already has that feature, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to add it.

[Kunoichi]

Char approved, just couple pointers; you should add to Shadow Pounce ability that it does not work in areas where teleport is blocked (nor works if area she is going teleport to blocks teleporting). I can allow also that if she so desires, she can strike multiple targets in range of the teleporting power (strike each foe once basically), so long total distance traveled between targets do not surpass range of the teleport power. So example dimension door would have 500'ft range and her foes are spread out 100'ft apart and there is six of them and one of them is adjacent to her, she can do attack on one adjacent to her, then five more attacks between 100'ft range of her targets and sixth foe she cannot reach to strike.

Also whirling blade you could add Sculpt Spell metamagic feature, so instead of line your char can take various shapes with her melee attacks magically.

Shadow Pounce already states that the full attack comes upon completion of the teleportation, so it by definition doesn't work in areas where teleportation is blocked.  That extra little boost to it does sound like it could be fun, though, particularly if she could apply Iaijutsu Focus damage to each target hit (perhaps by making it a single attack roll, and each opponent who gets their AC overcome gets cut?).  That said, the Greater Teleport SLA that Archfiends get for free has no range limit, so I think I'd limit that extra boost to only working with Dimension Door.

Hmm.  Sculpted Whirling Blade would still be a third level spell, though I'll also note that I took Whirling Blade to give her an AoE option, which isn't really needed with the upgrade to Shadow Pounce you're suggesting.  Though I could always try coming up with some other minor upgrade for Shadow Pounce and still use Whirling Blade, I suppose...

As for the weakness I came up with mechanics and decided to go with it being a very specific weakness that's hard to exploit but devastating when done.

My general preference is for weaknesses that are easier to exploit and that can provide a significant obstacle without being utterly devastating.  That said, if Zaer approves, then I won't have a problem with it.  I don't have time to look everything over at the moment, though.

As her second special ability I'm going spell casting but going to lower the levels provided to give it a bit of an extra twist. 

Spellcasting has to be a special attack, unfortunately.  That's been a pretty ironclad design rule throughout 3.5's run.

The alternative solution is to open that floodgate of immunity-breakers, immunity-breaker-immunities, and so forth, and just trust in our ability as players/GM to not abuse it. Zaer's divinations-focused character has a unique special to overcome immunities to divination effects, since otherwise his central character concept would be severely hampered. Lockpicke's character is heavily invested in dealing ability/energy drain through melee, and projects an aura that suppresses those immunities - without it, he's just a midrange melee brawler. My character, similarly, is thematically built around being halfway between a demon and a ghost, including the ability-damage common to incorporeal undead. Without that, he'd just be sneaky and lack any true offense. It's less about cowboys-and-bandits, more about spending that 'unique' slot to fully realize whatever concept you're pursuing.

For you, I don't think you would need an immunity-piercer mostly because you've already diversified your attack patterns. You can stun, blind, use druidic magic that has some seriously nasty offensive options, beat people up in melee, or swarm them with undead. That sort of versatility is its own way of getting around immunities, because you're far more likely to have something at your disposal a target didn't guard against.

And now I'm wondering if my little melee succubus with some admittedly extremely good mobility options might not still have trouble keeping up. :P

That's easy enough to fix if the aura projector can selectively exclude allies from it. Methu's aura already has that feature, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to add it.

Hmm.  If we had more Obyriths, I'd bring up the Form of Madness aura as another potential problem, but it looks like Zaer's character is the only one, so far.

[TheGlyphstone]

Crunch some numbers. See what your estimated DPR would be, use that to judge if you can keep up.

[Lockepick]

Dimensional Dervish from Pathfinder might be a fun base-line for Shadow Pounce. Basically what you guys are already saying.

[LizzieV]

While you do have a valid concern here, it's also sort of an inevitable consequence of playing at this power level. Even in the middle-double-digits of 3.5, there are simply so many ways to acquire multiply redundant immunities to pretty much anything you want, so the game morphs into a contest of finding which particular obscure attack form your opponent forgot to get an immunity to, when rocket-tagging them before they can do the same in return. It's not a terribly fun way to play, and tends to limit the sort of character you builds to Full Caster Or Go Home...an ordinary rogue, for instance, might as well not exist after level 15 or so because of how many ways you can become immune to sneak attack.

The alternative solution is to open that floodgate of immunity-breakers, immunity-breaker-immunities, and so forth, and just trust in our ability as players/GM to not abuse it. Zaer's divinations-focused character has a unique special to overcome immunities to divination effects, since otherwise his central character concept would be severely hampered. Lockpicke's character is heavily invested in dealing ability/energy drain through melee, and projects an aura that suppresses those immunities - without it, he's just a midrange melee brawler. My character, similarly, is thematically built around being halfway between a demon and a ghost, including the ability-damage common to incorporeal undead. Without that, he'd just be sneaky and lack any true offense. It's less about cowboys-and-bandits, more about spending that 'unique' slot to fully realize whatever concept you're pursuing.

For you, I don't think you would need an immunity-piercer mostly because you've already diversified your attack patterns. You can stun, blind, use druidic magic that has some seriously nasty offensive options, beat people up in melee, or swarm them with undead. That sort of versatility is its own way of getting around immunities, because you're far more likely to have something at your disposal a target didn't guard against.

You have a point and I'm not going to request any kind of stun/blind piecing. I do have plenty of attack forms and I'm not really concerned from my point of view too much. The character I created I envisioned mostly to be trying to lock down people for others to carve up but we'll see how it goes. The main thing with ability damage I had was primarily the rocket tagging thing when you can do like 8 (int/wis/cha) damage a swing. I'm certainly not against any kind of sneak attack vs things that normally are immune, not that any opinion on it really matters save for our GMs, but I'm just voicing things for conversation purposes.

Depending on how 'rocket taggy' it gets the only reason that struck me as unusual was that it means it's harder to balance a BBEG enemy survival over multiple rounds. It's really easy to add like a thousand hp to a monster by fiat that the group can carve through without trouble. With ability scores adding in more to make a creature survive more than a few rounds could raise other abilities and save DCs through the roof. I suppose a DM could have 'temp ability hp' or cast 'quickened heal' a lot but that seems like it is more a dig against your character since it would penalize what you do more than it would anyone else since it wouldn't be stacking with existing efforts. I'm fine with whatever the GMs want to allow but it's just something that went through my mind when I saw it. Love the concept though. Things that cause quick death that penetrate defenses and immunities usually raise red flags is all. I mean, I'm an okayish fighter for melee, but pure hp damage aside anything with high saves or stun immunity and death ward basically negates most of my actual damage as far as I am aware which I assumed would likely end up in basically every single fight or at least every important one. An undead army is more for story rather than effective unless I'm missing something. Isn't the highest thing I make like a CR8? Basically fireball slaughter.

If I am missing I'd appreciate pointing it out so I don't actually ignore the animate dead stuff. I just figured the idea of 'undead army' would be more of the planning strategic than actually effective thing. The highest end skeleton is only a CR8 which is mostly a road block someone has to spend a round clearing unless I've forgotten something. Maybe I should crack open libris mortis at some point and shuffle feats around. Any ideas?

[TheGlyphstone]

At our level, you shouldnt be animating humanoid skeletons. You want Skeletal or Zombified Dragons, dread wraiths, and mummies. Libris Mortis is a good place to look for weird stuff too.

[Zaer Darkwail]

I'd consider it since it reduces minionmancy but it's a spellcasting PrC and not a manifesting one.  That and technically the minionmancy of a Thallherd thematically fits with the backstory or how/why this particular Puppeteer became a villain and his(her?  it?) downfall.   Since I'm also kind of using this game to stretch my legs with things normally banned from play in other groups I'd rather stick to psionics instead of magic.

The PrC can work with psionics as already mentioned. Just need reflavor the requirements and that class features which talk about enchantments affect psionic powers of telepathy school mostly (charms and compulsions). The charm and dominate replaced with their psionic equivalents.

Shadow Pounce already states that the full attack comes upon completion of the teleportation, so it by definition doesn't work in areas where teleportation is blocked.  That extra little boost to it does sound like it could be fun, though, particularly if she could apply Iaijutsu Focus damage to each target hit (perhaps by making it a single attack roll, and each opponent who gets their AC overcome gets cut?).  That said, the Greater Teleport SLA that Archfiends get for free has no range limit, so I think I'd limit that extra boost to only working with Dimension Door.

Hmm.  Sculpted Whirling Blade would still be a third level spell, though I'll also note that I took Whirling Blade to give her an AoE option, which isn't really needed with the upgrade to Shadow Pounce you're suggesting.  Though I could always try coming up with some other minor upgrade for Shadow Pounce and still use Whirling Blade, I suppose...

Laijutsu Focus does not apply to all targets unless you can somehow reset the focus between the attacks. The multi target teleport attack is meant mostly for able strike multiple opponents once. Also whirling blade helps when facing foes more than your full attack would cover (or want strike them without getting close to targets, example counter fire shield sort defenses or robillar's gambit).

Dimensional Dervish from Pathfinder might be a fun base-line for Shadow Pounce. Basically what you guys are already saying.

Aye, based shadow pounce largely on that.

You have a point and I'm not going to request any kind of stun/blind piecing. I do have plenty of attack forms and I'm not really concerned from my point of view too much. The character I created I envisioned mostly to be trying to lock down people for others to carve up but we'll see how it goes. The main thing with ability damage I had was primarily the rocket tagging thing when you can do like 8 (int/wis/cha) damage a swing. I'm certainly not against any kind of sneak attack vs things that normally are immune, not that any opinion on it really matters save for our GMs, but I'm just voicing things for conversation purposes.

Depending on how 'rocket taggy' it gets the only reason that struck me as unusual was that it means it's harder to balance a BBEG enemy survival over multiple rounds. It's really easy to add like a thousand hp to a monster by fiat that the group can carve through without trouble. With ability scores adding in more to make a creature survive more than a few rounds could raise other abilities and save DCs through the roof. I suppose a DM could have 'temp ability hp' or cast 'quickened heal' a lot but that seems like it is more a dig against your character since it would penalize what you do more than it would anyone else since it wouldn't be stacking with existing efforts. I'm fine with whatever the GMs want to allow but it's just something that went through my mind when I saw it. Love the concept though. Things that cause quick death that penetrate defenses and immunities usually raise red flags is all. I mean, I'm an okayish fighter for melee, but pure hp damage aside anything with high saves or stun immunity and death ward basically negates most of my actual damage as far as I am aware which I assumed would likely end up in basically every single fight or at least every important one. An undead army is more for story rather than effective unless I'm missing something. Isn't the highest thing I make like a CR8? Basically fireball slaughter.

If I am missing I'd appreciate pointing it out so I don't actually ignore the animate dead stuff. I just figured the idea of 'undead army' would be more of the planning strategic than actually effective thing. The highest end skeleton is only a CR8 which is mostly a road block someone has to spend a round clearing unless I've forgotten something. Maybe I should crack open libris mortis at some point and shuffle feats around. Any ideas?

It's my headache to deal BBEG's challenge rates and deal your abilities. Besides you are the BBEG's in the game (your facing good guys as main opposition mostly). Also do not forget besides you there are other archdukes, demon princes etc who have similar powers and they got whooping +40 HD to beat your asses in direct fight if you think your big shot and think your able take on hell (or angels for that matter as angels can have dick abilities as well).

Overall let's say regular 16 HD paladin will have no freaking chance against most of you unless backed up by serious team, army or artifacts. But then again game is no fun as villain if you cannot roflstomp Captain America wanna-be's :P. Anyways on undead they are resource; 8 HD skeleton may be undead fodder but it's also bank of actions and HP. You can instruct the 8 HD skeleton throw a rock.

Now instruct 8 million 8 HD skeletons throw a rock, so instead of pebble you drop mountain amount of rocks upon someone. Also through shield other you can connect it to your 8 million skeletons (if want break HP pool) so you got HP of yourself + 8 million skeletons. Besides there are other undead available for create undead (animate dead is zombies or skeletons and via feats could do some other and Forgotten Realm may have undead or two which are unique manner created via ritual + animate dead). Also if take craft wondrous you can create spell-stitched zombies/ghouls and that means army of skeletons with spells on them.

Ofc you would want animate other stuff than regular humanoids, think of owlbears as example or hydras or monstrous humanoids like ogres.

[TheGlyphstone]

Personally, Id suggest we all find one monster and balance around being able to kill it in roughly the same time. Say, a Balor. Eyeballing Methu, he can kill a balor either via HP damage or Energy Drain reliably in 2 rounds, possibly one round with excellent rolls on iterative slam strikes. I dont have a sheet yet, but being able to deal 8 wis damage per hit means 3 hits will incap a balor, roughly 2 rounds reliably or 1 with good iteratives. So if you can beat up a balor shaped punching dummy in no more than three rounds, you're relatively balanced against existing PCs. Against other opponents with more HP or higher stats, we will be more relatively suited and can specialize.

That said, I think Im going to adopt the clause Methu has about only bypassing immunities not inherent to a type. The ability is called Dream Eater, being able to use it on mindless enemies like golems or zombies doesnt feel appropriate.

[LizzieV]

You make a good point Glyph! Baring hitting with a save or die, penetrating the spell resistance, and him failing a save I don't think I can do that much hp damage. He's not immune to stun and the fort save is only +22 so yeah, roughly a 75% chance of him getting stunned then spammed with save vs death. So 2 rounds about 56% of the time for me and he probably won't be able to do anything to me once the first stun hits. So yeah, you have some great points.

I'll have to look at the libris mortis and maybe shift around a spell or two to finalize things to get some more undead stuff going. It might be cool to raise an undead army and I might have to take craft wonderous item. We've got the book of vile darkness too so maybe I could get a pain extractor thing going... Anyway, I've got some tweaks I'll have to do and I still need to write up my backstory and get the aspects done X-D

[Zaer Darkwail]

In Libri Mortis there is feat line which automatically enhances all undead you raise with animate dead. Give more HP/natural armor, make them faster/climb walls and other where they explode on negative energy bombs (harm living but heal undead) when they are destroyed.

[Green Goo Theory]

"+1 manifesting level" for "+1 spellcasting level" is one of the most trivial substitutions you can do in 3.x. It's even a recommended modification for the Mindbender PrC already, so if you do like Insidious Corruptor assuming you can use a Manifester variant of it is the next best thing to guaranteed.

The PrC can work with psionics as already mentioned. Just need reflavor the requirements and that class features which talk about enchantments affect psionic powers of telepathy school mostly (charms and compulsions). The charm and dominate replaced with their psionic equivalents.

Almost a knee jerk response on my part.  I'm too used to DM's going full blown RAW (except when it suits them) that even when one of the DM's makes a suggestion that I miss the implications of the suggestion entirely.  I knew it was an easy swap but I'm used to a solid and automatic "no" that I just didn't think about it.  My bad.



Edit: 

In Libri Mortis there is feat line which automatically enhances all undead you raise with animate dead. Give more HP/natural armor, make them faster/climb walls and other where they explode on negative energy bombs (harm living but heal undead) when they are destroyed.

The corpsecrafter line of feats?  Those are pretty awesome.  Even better if you can figure out a way to apply them to yourself.  As hard as that may be.