On Nationalism

[RedRose]

This is disappointing. You can be a patriot and not a hating asshole http://fennecnews.tk/algeria/french-high-school-students-refuse-to-study-the-book-of-an-algerian-writer/

[Lustful Bride]

This is disappointing. You can be a patriot and not a hating asshole http://fennecnews.tk/algeria/french-high-school-students-refuse-to-study-the-book-of-an-algerian-writer/

At that point its not patriotism, but nationalism.

[gaggedLouise]

At that point its not patriotism, but nationalism.

That's interesting, I've always thought of patriotism and nationalism as overlapping much of the time.

[Lustful Bride]

That's interesting, I've always thought of patriotism and nationalism as overlapping much of the time.

That is true but personally I feel its like a Venn Diagram, with Nationalism having the more extreme elements.

[gaggedLouise]

That is true but personally I feel its like a Venn Diagram, with Nationalism having the more extreme elements.

*nods* Over here, every country has its own traditions of nationalism, so I don't really think of it as always being that extreme, but I see what you mean. :)

[Oniya]

That is true but personally I feel its like a Venn Diagram, with Nationalism having the more extreme elements.

Merriam-Webster has a blog entry on the topic here:  https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/patriotism-vs-nationalism

[Callie Del Noire]

Mark Twain said it like this (I think) “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."

But I’m a relic

[gaggedLouise]

Mark Twain said it like this (I think) “Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."

But I’m a relic

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson's famous bite into the pretensions of over-the-top patriotism/nationalism. I think that one's about the political exploitation of nationalism and "my country right or wrong" though - or about self-delusion in the name of one's country. Contemporary examples: Erdogan and Trump.

[Callie Del Noire]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson's famous bite into the pretensions of over-the-top patriotism/nationalism. I think that one's about the political exploitation of nationalism and "my country right or wrong" though - or about self-delusion in the name of one's country. Contemporary examples: Erdogan and Trump.

Trump and Erdogan are nationalists.. I love my country.. but I'm the first one say we can do so much better. I'm a Republican but I'm not the sort that says Party before People and Country. Sadly I'm in the minority on both sides of the aisle. I know that.. Patriotism is NOT Nationalism.. Nationalism is Power Grubbing in a mask that says Patriotism. The major difference is I'm willing to stand and die.. they are willing to let me stand and die while protecting themselves.

[QuackKing]

Trump and Erdogan are nationalists.. I love my country.. but I'm the first one say we can do so much better. I'm a Republican but I'm not the sort that says Party before People and Country. Sadly I'm in the minority on both sides of the aisle. I know that.. Patriotism is NOT Nationalism.. Nationalism is Power Grubbing in a mask that says Patriotism. The major difference is I'm willing to stand and die.. they are willing to let me stand and die while protecting themselves.

I don't see how nationalism is as bad as you make it out to be. I just see it as the support of a national identity and preservation of that identity.

I'm a nationalist because I like my country's culture, people, history, geography - I'm proud of it and I will support the ideal of the nation regardless of political organization. The self-determination of my nation and the continuation of my people are paramount, and because those can transcend political institutions it isn't necessary for me to automatically support my nation's government wholeheartedly. It doesn't become about borders or laws or whatever else, but rather the nation as an idea.

In practical terms, it makes sense for a citizen to fully support their national identity, because if they aren't willing to preserve their identity and sovereignty, there aren't many else who will.

[Deamonbane]

I don't see how nationalism is as bad as you make it out to be. I just see it as the support of a national identity and preservation of that identity.

I'm a nationalist because I like my country's culture, people, history, geography - I'm proud of it and I will support the ideal of the nation regardless of political organization. The self-determination of my nation and the continuation of my people are paramount, and because those can transcend political institutions it isn't necessary for me to automatically support my nation's government wholeheartedly. It doesn't become about borders or laws or whatever else, but rather the nation as an idea.

In practical terms, it makes sense for a citizen to fully support their national identity, because if they aren't willing to preserve their identity and sovereignty, there aren't many else who will.

So is that Russia, or the US?

[Skynet]

I don't see how nationalism is as bad as you make it out to be. I just see it as the support of a national identity and preservation of that identity.

I'm a nationalist because I like my country's culture, people, history, geography - I'm proud of it and I will support the ideal of the nation regardless of political organization. The self-determination of my nation and the continuation of my people are paramount, and because those can transcend political institutions it isn't necessary for me to automatically support my nation's government wholeheartedly. It doesn't become about borders or laws or whatever else, but rather the nation as an idea.

In practical terms, it makes sense for a citizen to fully support their national identity, because if they aren't willing to preserve their identity and sovereignty, there aren't many else who will.

A lot of popular nationalist movements in the USA and Europe at the moment are using the guise of loving one's country by hating everyone else. It also has precedent in the last 200 years; barring Communism which is transnational in intent, a lot of aggressive invasions and annexations have revolved around nationalist fervor. The Japanese Empire and Nazi Germany both preached of self-determination from British colonialism, the Soviet juggernaut, and other foreign threats real or imagined while doing the same themselves.

Steve Bannon and the alt-right in the United States define themselves via nationalism, although their brand is antithetical to American values in the promotion of anti-democratic fascism and white supremacy.

Another example are the Sweden Democrats, a political party which defines itself as being the only group willing to protect the country from Muslim rapists. And yet they are one of the few political parties in Sweden who are openly anti-gay, anti-feminist, and anti-liberal. I cannot speak to LGBT rights overall, but liberalism and egalitarianism are pretty important Swedish national values from my understanding of the country.

Although Daemonbane was a lot more blunt, many nationalist parties have heavy support from foreign interests.



Thus the reason why posters are separating patriotism from nationalism. Just like how many tyrants disguise their rhetoric as supporting liberty or protecting their people from the "far worse" outsiders, many unpatriotic people guise their rhetoric in loving their country yet wish to warp said nation's ideals into something it never was supposed to be.

[QuackKing]

A lot of popular nationalist movements in the USA and Europe at the moment are using the guise of loving one's country by hating everyone else. It also has precedent in the last 200 years; barring Communism which is transnational in intent, a lot of aggressive invasions and annexations have revolved around nationalist fervor. The Japanese Empire and Nazi Germany both preached of self-determination from British colonialism, the Soviet juggernaut, and other foreign threats real or imagined while doing the same themselves.

Nationalism does not automatically beget jingoism. Imperialist nations embolden their citizenry via various forms of shared identity, whether it be through shared nationalistic thought, patriotic thought, ideological dialectics, or whatever else. Just because imperialism masks itself behind these various ways of thought doesn't mean these ideas are inherently bad. Nationalist movements within the Eastern Bloc were by no means imperialist, nor were the movements fighting for Indian or Chinese self-determination from imperial powers.

Steve Bannon and the alt-right in the United States define themselves via nationalism, although their brand is antithetical to American values in the promotion of anti-democratic fascism and white supremacy.

Hmmmm. I don't think that the brand of the alt-right is necessarily antithetical to American values, because it does see itself as wanting to preserve American cultural and societal values. It is formed mainly as a response to pressures and groups of the political left which it sees as harming the integrity of core American identity.

The link you shared doesn't really say much except from the fact that some figureheads of the alt-right communicated with those labeled as "neo-nazis", which itself doesn't say much about any shared ideology (plus it's sourced from Joseph "Hidden Swastika Locator" Bernstein which makes me suspicious of its bias). The alt-right itself is very disparate and the title is often used to fling mud at political opponents, which makes it even harder to determine any cohesive ideology within it.

Another example are the Sweden Democrats, a political party which defines itself as being the only group willing to protect the country from Muslim rapists. And yet they are one of the few political parties in Sweden who are openly anti-gay, anti-feminist, and anti-liberal. I cannot speak to LGBT rights overall, but liberalism and egalitarianism are pretty important Swedish national values from my understanding of the country.

I mean, at this point, feminism isn't a synonym of egalitarianism in most Western countries. I also don't see anything on them advocating subjugation of homosexual people so I'm not sure how they're necessarily "anti-gay". I can't see them being anti-liberal if they're a political party within a democratic system.

Thus the reason why posters are separating patriotism from nationalism. Just like how many tyrants disguise their rhetoric as supporting liberty or protecting their people from the "far worse" outsiders, many unpatriotic people guise their rhetoric in loving their country yet wish to warp said nation's ideals into something it never was supposed to be.

I think nationalism often separates the nation from the politician. I agree that many unpatriotic people guise their rhetoric in loving their country, and I think nationalism can help combat that.

[Skynet]

Nationalism does not automatically beget jingoism. Imperialist nations embolden their citizenry via various forms of shared identity, whether it be through shared nationalistic thought, patriotic thought, ideological dialectics, or whatever else. Just because imperialism masks itself behind these various ways of thought doesn't mean these ideas are inherently bad. Nationalist movements within the Eastern Bloc were by no means imperialist, nor were the movements fighting for Indian or Chinese self-determination from imperial powers.

Serbian nationalism was an Eastern Bloc legacy, which defined itself in the creation of an all-Serb ethnostate free of foreign influences of Bosnians, Croats, etc. And yet Milosevic did far more damage to his own country than any foreigners have done at the time. Milosevic wasn't exactly colonizing far-flung vassal states, but he was wreaking ruin within his sphere of influence.

Hmmmm. I don't think that the brand of the alt-right is necessarily antithetical to American values, because it does see itself as wanting to preserve American cultural and societal values. It is formed mainly as a response to pressures and groups of the political left which it sees as harming the integrity of core American identity.

The link you shared doesn't really say much except from the fact that some figureheads of the alt-right communicated with those labeled as "neo-nazis", which itself doesn't say much about any shared ideology (plus it's sourced from Joseph "Hidden Swastika Locator" Bernstein which makes me suspicious of its bias). The alt-right itself is very disparate and the title is often used to fling mud at political opponents, which makes it even harder to determine any cohesive ideology within it.

The phrase alt-right was formed by Richard Spencer about a decade ago as an alternative to mainstream US conservatism which at the time did not overtly champion white nationalism.

If one wishes to check out the most popular alt-right advocates on YouTube, they'd see common themes. Let's pick Lauren Southern, Stefan Molyneux, and Mike Cernovich as examples. Their channels share a lot of themes and subjects in common. A belief that Western civilization is under attack from secularism, immigrants, George Soros, etc. Support President Trump and right-wing politicians, be it out of genuine support or to "trigger the libs," belief that political correctness has gone too far, the belief that socialism is on the rise in the US and Western countries and is an existential threat, and feel to varying extents that people arriving from predominantly non-Caucasian countries have incompatible values and thus trying to integrate them is a waste of time.

The United States has a sordid history of hatred and bigotry, but in many cases it is a failure to live up to the ideal. The phrase "All Men Are Created Equal" and the desire for the public to better create their own government via democratic means is incompatible with the alt-right. These people at best view human rights as a zero sum game and want to play for keeps for white Protestant men, or at worst want to carve up North America into segregated ethnic enclaves.

This Stefan Molyneux video is quite enlightening on the undertones of alt-right thought.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXCucDwPLIU

It combines a genuine fear of a nebulous changing country, but slowly builds up to the argument that white people need to start viewing the world in explicitly racial terms and practicing self-segregation because allegedly all the other races are doing it and that multiculturalism will spell the death of civilization. Nevermind the fact that the US has been multicultural for centuries and is powerful, or that the Roman Empire and Islamic Caliphates were multi-racial yet persisted for centuries. He takes some minor instances which concern him (people not always speaking English on the street and Indians arriving at polling places in buses) as a conspiratorial sign of Western End Times.

I mean, at this point, feminism isn't a synonym of egalitarianism in most Western countries. I also don't see anything on them advocating subjugation of homosexual people so I'm not sure how they're necessarily "anti-gay". I can't see them being anti-liberal if they're a political party within a democratic system.

Would you argue that the US Republican Party is liberal, given that the USA is a democracy?

I think nationalism often separates the nation from the politician. I agree that many unpatriotic people guise their rhetoric in loving their country, and I think nationalism can help combat that.

Kind of hard to do this when nationalist movements extensively rely upon cults of personality.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erdo%C4%9Fanism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolae_Ceau%C8%99escu%27s_cult_of_personality

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

So is that Russia, or the US?

I live, in both countries. They aren’t for much different, from each others. Much closer than maybe you think.

[Oniya]

I live, in both countries. They aren’t for much different, from each others. Much closer than maybe you think.

'And the creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'  G. Orwell.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

Exactly, you say what I mean, much better. Or, Mr Orwell does. ::) :-)

[Deamonbane]

I live, in both countries. They aren’t for much different, from each others. Much closer than maybe you think.

My question wasn't derogatory, and I apologize if that's how it sounded. QuackKing did not specify which country they meant, and they have Russian bot their profile. I just wasn't sure which country they were referring to.

[TheGlyphstone]

Maybe a mod should split off the nationalism debate into its own thread?

[gaggedLouise]

'And the creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.'  G. Orwell.

"Pig-Man, Pig-Man - Haha, charade you are!"

-opening line of Pigs by Pink Floyd. Roger Waters, who wrote most of the song, has recently been dedicating it to Donald Trump in concert.

Maybe a mod should split off the nationalism debate into its own thread?

Agree! :)

[Avis habilis]

Maybe a mod should split off the nationalism debate into its own thread?

Hey presto.

[Meatboy]

To let you guys know a little more about myself, my grandfather (actually my great uncle but I grew up in his household) was an American but I was born, raised and likely to die here in the Philippines. But, again, through my grandfather's influence, I grew up to embrace American culture over Filipino for a lot of personal reasons I don't really feel like discussing here although I might put up a post here soon. I prefer American or at least Western literature and film over Filipino any day and am a native speaker of English.

I was once asked by a student on my own opinion of nationalism/patriotism and I pretty much summed it up with the following:

"To me, one should treat his country like his home and his countrymen as his family. As you probably know, not all homes and families are good and you can never really expect them to be perfect. As a matter of fact, if you came from an abusive household and a bad family, I can't really blame you if you hate them. Always remember though that they are your family and that you should never turn your back on them if you have a chance to help them."

I don't know if that makes sense to you but here's another:

"I love and am proud of my country but I think every country has something to be proud of."

Although I'm willing to admit that there are a few countries that are rather unfortunate.

So is that Russia, or the US?

As for you, I want to tell you something that happened a few months back.

My coworkers were eating at a cafeteria when a TV show had a segment regarding the beauty of Brazilian female convicts. Yes, you heard that right. Brazilian female CONVICTS.

Just about every woman in the cafeteria was stunned and every man (including me) was drooling. It got to the point that the vice principal had to grab her husband by the chin to turn him away from the TV screen. Then the principal stood up and said: "Let's go home guys, someone won already." And everyone laughed.

What she said roughly translates to: "That's it guys, we're screwed. We can't beat those guys on even terms. Let's just give up."

If you are a proud Brazilian, you should take pride in having such beautiful convicts because female convicts in the Philippines are...

I'd rather not talk about it...

[Skynet]

As for you, I want to tell you something that happened a few months back.

My coworkers were eating at a cafeteria when a TV show had a segment regarding the beauty of Brazilian female convicts. Yes, you heard that right. Brazilian female CONVICTS.

Just about every woman in the cafeteria was stunned and every man (including me) was drooling. It got to the point that the vice principal had to grab her husband by the chin to turn him away from the TV screen. Then the principal stood up and said: "Let's go home guys, someone won already." And everyone laughed.

What she said roughly translates to: "That's it guys, we're screwed. We can't beat those guys on even terms. Let's just give up."

If you are a proud Brazilian, you should take pride in having such beautiful convicts because female convicts in the Philippines are...

I'd rather not talk about it...

I ask this in all sincerity; are you trolling?

[Deamonbane]

I ask this in all sincerity; are you trolling?

+1

[Lustful Bride]

I am having issue understanding what was said. I think there is a major language barrier going on. None of that made sense.