America what is with your current stance between Israel and Palestine ?

[Callie Del Noire]

There are plenty of places in the world where poverty exists that do not serve as a breeding ground for extremism.  So if that's your only argument... it's a little thin.

No, it doesn't. Poverty alone doesn't do it. The loss of hope, despair and fear are needed. And the mix of frustration and evil men preying on others. Extremism isn't evil. The willingness to have another man strap a bomb on to blow himself and innocents in the street is. The use of your state to force others out of their home is.

Neither side is all good or bad. Israel and Palestine are not good guy/bad guys. They need someone outside their borders to sit them down and knock their metaphorical heads together and come to some agreement on what is and isn't acceptable for peace.

They've needed that for nearly forty years. Sadly no one seems to want to do it. The only person in any position of power to make an actual effort in my opinion was President Carter..and the four presidents since have dropped the ball in my opinion (with holding opinon on the current man in the white house)

I do think if folks push the Israelis too hard that someone's capital will glow in the dark.

[Morven]

Poverty is certainly one aspect that encourages it; it doesn't by itself explain it, but people are more likely to welcome extreme arguments and ideologies when they have less to lose.

[Jude]

I think poverty is more of a symptom of the problem, a manifestation of it, than the problem itself.  The Palestinians are poor because of their political situation over there and the lack of stability.

[Revolverman]

personally, I think we should support no one in the mideast and just wash our hands of all of it.

[Will]

That is an extreme option, and would certainly lead to a lot of problems.  BUT, since it does seem that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, I could go along with that.  We could stop throwing money and resources (and lives) at a problem we can't solve, and turn it toward making things better here.

[Revolverman]

That is an extreme option, and would certainly lead to a lot of problems.  BUT, since it does seem that we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, I could go along with that.  We could stop throwing money and resources (and lives) at a problem we can't solve, and turn it toward making things better here.

Exactly, if your damned eather way, how about the damned that saves money, lives, and not draw the anger of the Muslim world.

[Will]

Exactly, if your damned eather way, how about the damned that saves money, lives, and not draw the anger of the Muslim world.

I'm afraid that's pretty much guaranteed at this point. XD  Whether we stay or go, we're already going to draw that anger.  We were screwed as soon as we sent troops, it seems to me.  Bleh.

[Revolverman]

I'm afraid that's pretty much guaranteed at this point. XD  Whether we stay or go, we're already going to draw that anger.  We were screwed as soon as we sent troops, it seems to me.  Bleh.

I disagree. Its not like the Mideast woke up one day, pointed at the US on a map and said "See these guys? Fuck them.". They dislike the amount of interference the US pulls in the Mideast, and its been happening long before any of the gulf wars started.

[Will]

But if we leave, we will have stirred up huge trouble and then bailed.  They'll hate us for that.  They will hate us no matter what, and so will most of the world, most likely.

[Revolverman]

But if we leave, we will have stirred up huge trouble and then bailed.  They'll hate us for that.  They will hate us no matter what, and so will most of the world, most likely.

But then, as you said, they already do. So whats the point of staying and wasting huge amounts of money, equipment, and worst of all, lives?

[Will]

I'm in agreement with you!  I'm just saying, they're going to hate us no matter what.  I think that's the only place we disagree.

[Revolverman]

I'm in agreement with you!  I'm just saying, they're going to hate us no matter what.  I think that's the only place we disagree.

Haha, fair enough.

[Elven Sex Goddess]

Exactly, if your damned eather way, how about the damned that saves money, lives, and not draw the anger of the Muslim world.

I disagree. Its not like the Mideast woke up one day, pointed at the US on a map and said "See these guys? Fuck them.". They dislike the amount of interference the US pulls in the Mideast, and its been happening long before any of the gulf wars started.

Your over simplifying by thinking that the United States is the sole basis and root cause.   While at the same time declaring that most of the middle east does not want us there.   I would contend that.  For a lot of the middle east wants us there.  They see as a beacon of hope to further there aims. While just as many don't want us.

The point is that you really don't understand middle east politic or motivations of you try to summarize in a western attitudes and beliefs.   Think of it as a big chess board.  An each move is made and counter moved.  That is the world of politics within the middle east.   

Example the western civilization looks at Iran.  As a country that would like to wipe all the Jewish people off the face of the earth.   Because of comments made by their president.   But does anyone realize that is a strong surviving Jewish community in Tehran.    With even Jewish Iranians in what is the Iranian parliament.   That more then a million still visit the tomb of Esther, from the bible. The Jewish queen/wife of Xertes.   That Ramadan is in fact from Prince Mordecai the Jewish uncle elevated to such by Xertes of Esther.   

This alone should show the complexities to the middle east that truly is not recognized and generalized.  The movie 'Bodies of Lies'  this is a good watch.  It catches and portrays the essence of the political by play that is a constant and way of doing things within the middle east.   

Just as most seem to be lumping the Muslim Arab world in one lump category.   When in fact it is much diverse.  From not only nationalities, from the various sects of Islam to breaking down to even individual tribes.   

Which then leads to this thread or many within it is linking the over all political climate as root in cause to Iraq to the Israel and Palestinians conflict.    That is not the case in point.  Was the United States right in going in and toppling a legitimate sovereign government.  A case both ways can be made.  For the old regime was repressive to its own people.  Committing genocide upon such fractions as the Kurds.     However,  the truth as much of a tyrant he was an actual a tool for the United States and the west.    As he broke up what is now turned into the Shiite crescent of power within that region.  Because the Iran, Iraq eight year war was not formed over our doing.  But in root cause the complexities of the middle east.   

Now why does the west have such a vested interested.   Well that very style of complexities of political climate leads to a degree of unrest and unsuitability.      And right now the west is slave to the carbon based fossil fuels.  In such a great way that it can topple economies.  While on Israel, it is born out of the fact of the holocaust of world war two.   In which is another whole story of the eluded excuse given because of the treaty of Versailles.  In which the German state got the shaft for world war one.  Where as the young unified state of Germany went from having one the most brilliant leaders ever in Otto Von Bismarck to a charismatic flawed insane leader such as Hitler.  In the span of just seventy years.   So how is it that the Jewish people had become the scapegoats of that treaty that had doomed Germany and breeded the Nazi party rise and thus the eventual  second world war. 

Well with having gone a bit off subject,  I will remain so with this next.   So if and when we the United States pulls out of Iraq.  What is going to be the reaction if and a very big possibility that Syria and Iran carve up the Iraq country.  If this were to happen would there be an outcry about the Iraq people having there own sovereign nation.    That is just one of the dilemmas facing the United States and President Obama.  And before some of you rush to it.  That we are greatly to blame for.  So that is another of the reasons that many do not want us to leave with in the Arab Muslim world. 

So why is it that the illusion is given that most of the Arab world hates us.  Is it because these terrorist instead of targeting military only.  Target the civilian populous.   In which are greater guilt is to be found.  That we have failed to protect adequately.  An thus anger at us over this is what gives rise.   So then do you really believe these people embrace and love those that are suicide bombers.  That have killed wifes, husbands, brothers, sisters, son, daughters and so on.   In people that just want to live their lives.    That once again you are over simplifying the middle east. 

[Will]

All I'm actually referring to is our tarnished reputation in world affairs.  I'm not specifically talking about the Middle East.  I have a hard time seeing how we can repair our reputation by staying there, and leaving doesn't seem like it will help much either.

As you say, different groups want different things from the U.S., and we can't please them all.  Since it's all the same, I would rather our resources be used domestically, and our soldiers not have to risk their lives.

[Revolverman]

Your over simplifying by thinking that the United States is the sole basis and root cause.   While at the same time declaring that most of the middle east does not want us there.   I would contend that.  For a lot of the middle east wants us there.  They see as a beacon of hope to further there aims. While just as many don't want us.

The point is that you really don't understand middle east politic or motivations of you try to summarize in a western attitudes and beliefs.   Think of it as a big chess board.  An each move is made and counter moved.  That is the world of politics within the middle east.   

Example the western civilization looks at Iran.  As a country that would like to wipe all the Jewish people off the face of the earth.   Because of comments made by their president.   But does anyone realize that is a strong surviving Jewish community in Tehran.    With even Jewish Iranians in what is the Iranian parliament.   That more then a million still visit the tomb of Esther, from the bible. The Jewish queen/wife of Xertes.   That Ramadan is in fact from Prince Mordecai the Jewish uncle elevated to such by Xertes of Esther.   

This alone should show the complexities to the middle east that truly is not recognized and generalized.  The movie 'Bodies of Lies'  this is a good watch.  It catches and portrays the essence of the political by play that is a constant and way of doing things within the middle east.   

Just as most seem to be lumping the Muslim Arab world in one lump category.   When in fact it is much diverse.  From not only nationalities, from the various sects of Islam to breaking down to even individual tribes.   

Which then leads to this thread or many within it is linking the over all political climate as root in cause to Iraq to the Israel and Palestinians conflict.    That is not the case in point.  Was the United States right in going in and toppling a legitimate sovereign government.  A case both ways can be made.  For the old regime was repressive to its own people.  Committing genocide upon such fractions as the Kurds.     However,  the truth as much of a tyrant he was an actual a tool for the United States and the west.    As he broke up what is now turned into the Shiite crescent of power within that region.  Because the Iran, Iraq eight year war was not formed over our doing.  But in root cause the complexities of the middle east.   

Now why does the west have such a vested interested.   Well that very style of complexities of political climate leads to a degree of unrest and unsuitability.      And right now the west is slave to the carbon based fossil fuels.  In such a great way that it can topple economies.  While on Israel, it is born out of the fact of the holocaust of world war two.   In which is another whole story of the eluded excuse given because of the treaty of Versailles.  In which the German state got the shaft for world war one.  Where as the young unified state of Germany went from having one the most brilliant leaders ever in Otto Von Bismarck to a charismatic flawed insane leader such as Hitler.  In the span of just seventy years.   So how is it that the Jewish people had become the scapegoats of that treaty that had doomed Germany and breeded the Nazi party rise and thus the eventual  second world war. 

Well with having gone a bit off subject,  I will remain so with this next.   So if and when we the United States pulls out of Iraq.  What is going to be the reaction if and a very big possibility that Syria and Iran carve up the Iraq country.  If this were to happen would there be an outcry about the Iraq people having there own sovereign nation.    That is just one of the dilemmas facing the United States and President Obama.  And before some of you rush to it.  That we are greatly to blame for.  So that is another of the reasons that many do not want us to leave with in the Arab Muslim world. 

So why is it that the illusion is given that most of the Arab world hates us.  Is it because these terrorist instead of targeting military only.  Target the civilian populous.   In which are greater guilt is to be found.  That we have failed to protect adequately.  An thus anger at us over this is what gives rise.   So then do you really believe these people embrace and love those that are suicide bombers.  That have killed wifes, husbands, brothers, sisters, son, daughters and so on.   In people that just want to live their lives.    That once again you are over simplifying the middle east.

I really... don't understand what you are saying.

You seem to chastise me for your assumption that I think everyone in the mideast hates the US, but I was saying how pointless it is for the US to sink money, and people into it.

[Kate]

I am in total agreement with Elven Sex Goddess, I believe.  The whole "World Police" role does seem like a lose/lose scenario, and our only choice is between two evils.

If we abstain from getting involved, the world will ask "Where were you?  We needed you!"  If we get involved, the world will say "Why are you poking your nose in someone's business again, America? ::)"

<groan>

The world saw America as world police post WWII when everyone else was rebuilding (so whoever did it first wouldn't just exploit the power difference after feeling a little bitter from the experience).

BUT the United Nations was formed to be the world police
(America does contribute a lot to the UN the world does appreciate this).

If america wanted to wash their hands of it what they should do In my opinion is go to the UN and say

"Um we made a mess here we will hand things over to the UN and finance what the UN chooses to do"

... which would work FINE if whatever the UN wants to do is not
VETO'd BY AMERICA (or another veto poweR) or ignore the UN and do their own thing.

If america really wants to help the world I think phasing out veto powers makes sense to allow the UN to do their job.

That WHY we have a UN ! America doesnt have to see itself as world's police (currently they are policing anything that AGAINST america's intention - this is not the same thing - when in Africa one culture was killing off another with machettes over a few weeks  - ie genocide - america didnt step in as world police force - they didnt get involved as there was no trade goods / resources to get out of it making it in their best interest - the world just looked on and shrugged their shoulders)

UN UN UN UN UN UN !

[Will]

But the U.N. can't make everyone happy any better than the U.S.  No matter what they decide to do, it will leave large groups of people feeling screwed.  Who is going to get the blame then?  The U.N.?  I'm doubtful.

[Kate]

But the U.N. can't make everyone happy any better than the U.S. 

Whoa .... slow down there sunshine. You don't know that.
The UN gives a lot of disaster relief etc.... does a lot of good.

If countries like America ignore UN decisions and go into war anyway or if countries like America veto UN suggestions ... your right the UN can't do any better. NOT vetoing its actions ... NOT ignoring its decision does free up options.

No matter what they decide to do, it will leave large groups of people feeling screwed.  Who is going to get the blame then?  The U.N.?  I'm doubtful.

Less people less so, blame the UN ? perhaps ... but the UN acts on what is voted for the UN to do (ie it has ambassadors / representives thinking of what is right and voting on it) any hatred of decisions wouldn't be directed at particular countries (well not as much)

[Oniya]

Whoa .... slow down there sunshine. You don't know that.
The UN gives a lot of disaster relief etc.... does a lot of good.

The thing is that any decision-making, aid-giving body cannot expect to please all the people all the time.  The major difference would be that, since the UN is a group of people from different countries, there would be less (note that I don't say 'no') chance that the decision would been seen as being biased.

It's like divorce court.  When two entities, be they countries or people, both want the same material thing (house, custody of the kids, the Gaza Strip), someone is going to be unhappy with the judge's decision.  Sometimes, the best the judge can hope for is that they're both mad at the court.

[Will]

I don't even believe that any blame will be deflected to the "court" in this case, either.  Everyone will know who started the problem, and the extremist groups in the region will not let anyone forget it.

We've been trapped!  Sneaky terrorists are sneaky.

[Kate]

the diffrerence is that the UN is thre to resolve disputes.

America is there to see things move in america's favor.

Which "police" do you beleive would have a higher effectiveness of resolving disputes ?

[Revolverman]

the diffrerence is that the UN is thre to resolve disputes.

America is there to see things move in america's favor.

Which "police" do you beleive would have a higher effectiveness of resolving disputes ?

None, because the UN is just as self serving as any other nation on earth.

[Kate]

self serving ?

Its unlikely coutries would propose actions that all vote for the UN to do unless they themeslves see the sense on it.

[Revolverman]

self serving ?

Its unlikely coutries would propose actions that all vote for the UN to do unless they themeslves see the sense on it.

And that's just it, why would a group of (rightly so) self serving nations coming together form some aturistic, fair handed global law enforcement?

[Will]

What makes you so certain that the U.N. can resolve the issues in the Middle East at all, much less to everyone's satisfaction?  You seem to be assuming that as a part of your argument, without question.