Controversy !!!!

[Serenity Vixen]

Has anyone seen the movie "The Golden Compass"?

I thought it was a really good movie. There were a few places where it moved a tad slow for me, but overall a very enjoyable experience.

It is a movie in a fantasy setting, so frankly I am a little confused about the call for a boycott. I HIGHLY recommend seeing the movie and deciding for yourself :)

[Elvi]

Why has there been a call for a boycott?

(My Daughter is off to see it tonight with her school friends and teachers)

[Tom]

The books have an anti-religious theme that the movies haven't quite dared follow up on...

[Sam]

It is a movie in a fantasy setting, so frankly I am a little confused about the call for a boycott. I HIGHLY recommend seeing the movie and deciding for yourself :)

Pullman's original novels (much less so the film) posit a pre-Reformation Church continuing through to the Edwardian period, with all the abuse of power and theological rigidity that implies.  To infuriate dogmatic religious types further, his books propose an alternative belief system that discards the idea of a singular God and replaces it with free thought, universal attachment to creation and a lot of other heady stuff.

I haven't seen The Golden Compass yet -- I wanted to avoid opening weekend crowds, though I understand they didn't materialize -- but it's my understanding that the religious overtones of the novel have been soft-pedaled, though Pullman says they will gain traction in the follow-up films if they're made.  With the Catholic League in shrieking hysteria over the books and by proxy the film, a sort of non-controversy controversy's been stirred up that doesn't have any apparent basis in fact.

[Sam]

The books have an anti-religious theme that the movies haven't quite dared follow up on...

I'm not sure it's fair to call the books "anti-religious," though that's the package the Catholic League's trying to sell.

[Elvi]

*shrugs*
An 'American' thing then, not seen much fuss over here about the books or the film.
Beasty has read all of them, the only thing she is upset about is that the film uses the 'American' book title and not the one she is used to....

[Tom]

Well, even if I'm on the other side of the table of the catholic league, I'm not shy of using the words anti-religious. Hell, if I had written the books I'd be proud calling them anti-religious!

Disclaimer: I haven't actually read the books. I'm just being loudmouthed. Also, in fantasy settings I loooove having detailed and complex religious pantheons.

PS. The movie wasn't very good. Plot holes a plenty and lots of (accidental) sillyness.

[Serenity Vixen]

I'll have to make a point on reading the books. Truth to tell, we actually went to see "Beowulf", but got delayed, so arrived to late, and it seemed like the next best movie. We didn't even know about the controversy until afterward, although that would have only served to make me want to see it more  :P

I liked the show, even though I did get bored in a spot or two. I especially liked the cast.

I have to admit though that I could read it... well, like a book. I kept telling my GF what was going to happen, even though I had never read the book or seen the movie before. She was especially shocked when I predicted the end, for some reason.

To me it seemed to parallel some of Tolkians work, although that would be a bit hard to explain, and would require mentioning spoilers that it would be far to early to mention as yet.

[Jefepato]

I'm not sure it's fair to call the books "anti-religious," though that's the package the Catholic League's trying to sell.

The books are intentionally anti-religious, so I don't really see the problem.

[Avi]

Eh, it's just typical extremist Christians who are taking things way too far.  I'm a Catholic, and yes, the books are meant to be a critique of the Catholic Church prior to the Reformation, when there were huge amounts of power abuse.  However, I'm a big fan of the books, and I plan to see the movie. 

The Catholic League's assertion that the movie is bait for the books is giving the filmmakers way too much credit.  I highly doubt there's some grand conspiracy to spread Atheism through the use of movies, and even Nicole Kidman has said she would not be involved with the movie if she felt it was as controversial as Bill Donohue would say.  But she is, she's proud to say that, and she's a mainstream Catholic. 

Bill Donohue and the Catholic League do not speak for all of us, many of us would not be sad to see him drop off a cliff somewhere. 

[Sam]

The books are intentionally anti-religious, so I don't really see the problem.

The problem is that they're not intentionally (or unintentionally) anti-religious.  They're anti-dogmatic and utilize the pre-Reformation theological approach of the in-world Church to make that point.

[Sam]

Bill Donohue and the Catholic League do not speak for all of us, many of us would not be sad to see him drop off a cliff somewhere. 

I think the sun would shine just a little brighter that day.   ;D

[TonyWoods]

To me it seemed to parallel some of Tolkians work, although that would be a bit hard to explain, and would require mentioning spoilers that it would be far to early to mention as yet.

Hmm I'll be interested in finally getting round to seeing this on the big screen then - I've read the books and I can't say they came across as very Tolkien-esque to me personally, so it will be interesting to see if its been fiddled with some way on its way to becoming a movie.

Then again, I didn't like the books that much so I might have 'zoned out' over those bits - while the some of the underlying premises were interesting I found the writing bland and strained in a lot of places (especially in the third book), and a lot of the religious/dogmatic 'prodding' 'very weak.

Hmm, actually on second thoughts, bar the religion bit that sounds a LOT like the work of Tolkien...

[Swedish Steel]

Oh, sure, boycot this one! Idiots. I for one are glad we get something that balances all the religious crap C. S. Lewis tried to force feed us with his damn books. I quite liked them when I was a kid, got plenty pissed of when I realized I was being handed Christianity in disguise. I was over my believing in fairy tales phase by then.

[Sherona]

Frankly I have read Golden Compass books and found the author to be boring and a bit over the top with his anti-religion. To compare him to someone in Tolkien's caliber kind of boggles my mind as Tolkien was just...yeah..ok so I am a Tolkien nerd sue me.


Being at best agnostic I have no problems iwth people writing books that are anti-religious establishment or anything else, what I do have a problem with is people getting up in arms about other people having issues with it.

You don't want people up in arms about this book's anti-relgious themes..but you have no problem getting up in arms about perceived christian themes? Can I say..huh? If your going to blast someone for having an undercurrent of Religious theme in their books, then I would suggest you dont blast others for blasting anti-religous themed books.

*shrugs* That is just my point of view. Frankly I only see minimal religious theme in the Narnia series, and that was simply teh Sons of Adam, and Daughters of Eve..of course I read them the way they are suppose to be read..for entertainment and not to be picked apart looking for symbolism...they are childrens books..and children generally do not see much symbolism at the age that Narnia books are written to..

Same with Golden Compass..I don't think that teh target audiences, mainly children, will see too much of the anti-religious theme and will probably view it as what it is...a work of Fantasy.

I just wish people would quit reading in between the lines for once, and just enjoy the damn books lol.

[Swedish Steel]

You don't want people up in arms about this book's anti-relgious themes..but you have no problem getting up in arms about perceived christian themes? Can I say..huh? If your going to blast someone for having an undercurrent of Religious theme in their books, then I would suggest you dont blast others for blasting anti-religous themed books.

But I'm not calling for a boycot of Narnia, am I? I just shared my own personal oppinion on the matter. People can read Lewis to their hearts content, it just isn't for me. So my first statement stands...the people calling for the boycot are idiots.

[Sherona]

wasn;t really directed at you personally Steele :) I just used the C.S. lewis for reference.

I agree, boycotting for content is silly and does not really do much other then give the content more publicity :) Boycotting very rarely works in any situation, and I for one am all in favor of people being able to write, read, or watch anything they damn well want to.  If someone doesn't want their child reading/watching Golden Compass because it does not reflect their own personal views thats fine, dont buy the books..dont buy tickets to the movie..simple as that.

Same goes for the inane Passions of Jesus Christ crap. I had no desire to watch it, I find that the whole issue smacked of using one's fame to promote religious views (*cough* Tom Cruise *cough* Scientology *cough*) and frankly from what I hear the movie was pretty much drivel just as I thought. But did I go and make a big protest over it? Nope...

Bah I am just too long winded sometimes.

[Swedish Steel]

I like that Church in Texas that made a big book burning with Harry Potter books. How they got hold of them? Went and bought a whole bunch of them. Did it hurt HP's sale figures much? I'd sure Rowling herself would encourage it: buy two books, one to burn, one to read.
Idiots.

[Serenity Vixen]

Calling a public boycott is pretty silly, and almost guarantees the success of the event in question, which is fine with me, I did enjoy the Golden Compass as a movie, and would like to see the rest of them made.

Just to clarify though, when I compared it to Tolkian, it was just the movie version. I have not read the books. Specifically, the battle near the end reminded me strongly of the "Battle of 5 armies" from near the end of "The Hobbit".  It may be that I am just such a huge fan of Tolkian that my mind put comparisons that did not exost, but I just could not help thinking about the Tolkian work while watching the battle in the movie...

[Swedish Steel]

Or you could just watch it for the spankings, if you are into that.

[Monochromatic]

I've read the books and adored them - can't wait to go see the movie. A couple of friends and I were thinking of seeing it this weekend. In my opinion, the people who want to boycott it (or any other book/movie...etc) are just plain silly. Not everybody has the same beliefs as them. Why should we cater to them specifically and say 'screw you' to everybody else who enjoys it D=? Shame, shame.

[Incognito]

The His Dark Materials series is anti-religious but far from being anti-spirituality, Truth be told, I think it is an attempt to bring the idea of Gnosticism to a younger audience in words that they can understand, and it is understandable that the church would be up in arms about the movie as well as the books.  Pullman portrays original sin as the defining point of humanity simply because it was the first incident where humans displayed Free Will and the capability to ignore the orders of  “God.” 

The Church called Gnosticism heresy once, why would they change their stance on it now?

Sorry if I’m rambling...  I’m kind of tired and Religion is one of my interests.

[Elvi]

Had a chat with Beasty about this last night, she's read the books and has now seen the film, so a 12 year old's point of view is:

Religion:
This is not our world, so why say it's anti 'our' religion?
They have a different type of religion, they see things differently than we do and they can split themselves in two we can't.

The film:
She enjoyed it, they stayed mostly to the story line, though she was dissapointed about the ending as she thought the ending of the book was far more exciting.
She thought the cast were chosen well and the characters almost as she had imagined them and the special effects were brilliant.
All in all she says that the film was good, enjoyable and that she would recomend people see it 'if you like that sort of thing'.

Tolkein:
Beasty reckons not.
She says apart from the fact that it's fantasy she doesn't see many similarities.

So there you go...yes this is 'second hand' because she can't comment on this site, but I see no reason for me to lie or exagerate as I have made no comment at all about the film or it's content.

[Swedish Steel]

Pullman portrays original sin as the defining point of humanity simply because it was the first incident where humans displayed Free Will and the capability to ignore the orders of  “God.” 

Excellent.

[Serenity Vixen]

Beasty seems wise and mature for someone to young to post duirectly

[Elvi]

She's twelve and yes she is wise beyond her years.
(And she's blushing now because she's reading this with me....*laughs*)

However, I have just been told off because I forgot to mention that the film should have been called "The Northern Lights".
Here that is the title of the first book in the series, though it may not have made any sense because they cut the sad/good ending off, which is where the Northerm lights come in...

Edit:
Have just been told off again, for not mentioning that as she has been doing Fantasy Live Role play since she was 5 and she has read (well listened to on talking books, she's dislexic and they are a tough read), all of the Tolkein books, as well as a lot of other fantasy books, she knows the difference between reality and fiction.
Only people who can't tell the difference would see this or Harry Potter or anything else as an attack on their religion...

[Serenity Vixen]

Scary...
I read Tolkian when I was 9 or 10, did she beat me?
I have slight dyslexia myself ((Or have a real problem at times focusing anyway. I never had it actually diagnosed, but the words seem to move at times for me))

[Elvi]

Ermmmmm......well....*tries to remember*...she had read them before the first film...so I think so yes....*laughs*

Beasty is in the process of being retested at school to see if she can get extra help with her work.
I'm afraid it runs in the family, all of mine have dyslexia apart from my mother. I have it too, though not as bad as my father and two brothers, we girls got off reasonibly lightly.... 

[MadPanda]

(shakes head sadly)

The controversy, such as it is, exists only because people like Mister Donahue must somehow justify and explain their existence in terms of histrionic opposition to the 'offense of the week'.  Unfortunately for the rest of us, manufactured outrage brings in the ratings...and encourages this sort of temper tantrum from people who ought to know better.

Me, I'm gonna go see it for one reason and one reason alone: armored polar bears!   ;D ;D ;D 

[Serenity Vixen]

Yea!!
See what happens when the Coke Mascot gets really really ticked off!!!  :P

[Elvi]

Apparently they are fantastic Panda, Beasty says they are really realistic....

[MadPanda]

Coolness!

Now all I need is that tribe of Zulu Meerkats riding a giant 'croc into battle like Herbert's Fremen on a Worm...

[Elvi]

I really hate to say this Panda, but I can see that so clearly in my mind's eye.....

[Serenity Vixen]

The Polar Bears were indeed very realistic. I was inpressed

But my favorite is the actor... I forget his name, but he was the older Ghost Rider, and he has been  in allot of westerns

[Elvi]

Sam Elliot.
Made his film debut is Mask, (the Cher one not the other one), he was a real biker, as were most iof the others in 'the gang'.

[Serenity Vixen]

Yea, that's the one
He just seems like the very idea of a cowboy to me, and I have never disliked him in any movie I have seen him in

[Elvi]

He's just one of those people who seem to be a 'natural', he'll never be a mega star, but I don't think he'll ever be out of work either...

[Zakharra]

Same goes for the inane Passions of Jesus Christ crap. I had no desire to watch it, I find that the whole issue smacked of using one's fame to promote religious views (*cough* Tom Cruise *cough* Scientology *cough*)

  Tom Cruise did not do 'The Passion of the Christ'. That was Mel Gibson.

[Apple of Eris]

Hey Elvi, apparently Sam Elliot made his debut as a bit player in the sixties and then was in the mission impossible tv series and so forth, if Wikipedia is right.

I might have to see if I can rent those, I always liked him.

[Elvi]

*laughs*
Sorry, Apple...yes he was in Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid as well, which is, I think the first film role he had, before he was in theatre....

Perhaps I should have said a leading film part?

[Swedish Steel]

Forget all about that, he was in Road House. Nuff said.

[Serenity Vixen]

All I know is he makes a GREAT aging mentor type character, and he is one of my favorite actors :)

[Sam]

But my favorite is the actor... I forget his name, but he was the older Ghost Rider, and he has been  in allot of westerns

Sam Elliott is the shiznit.

[Elvi]

*looks around*
Errr....hadn't we done that one Sam?
Or did we get stuck in a string thingy and it wiped off the last half a dozen posts in your universe?