Male fantasy?

[Beorning]

Okay, this might be a weird question, but hear me out.

Not too long ago, I've noticed a comment online suggesting that stuff like Warhammer appeals to the "male fantasy". Then, yesterday, I was watching a Dune clip on YT... and I saw a comment saying (in a not-entirely-serious way, admittedly) that Dune appeals to "that old male fantasy of ruling an empire".

So, now I'm wondering: is there really such a thing as "male fantasy" involving war, conquest etc.? Does wargaming and epic SF / fantasy appeal to it? Are there other types of male fantasies? Finally, what would a "female fantasy" be, then?

I'm wondering what you guys think of it. If anything. I don't know, maybe it's a silly thing to ask about. Nevertheless..?

[GloomCookie]

This is a... complicated issue, mostly because there will be several people who view such ambitions as signs of toxic masculinity, others who don't, men and women alike who have dreams and aspirations of power, while again, others do not. It's all part of what makes up an individual's unique personality that determines if they do or don't subscribe to such fantasies.

Never the less, there is an appeal among several men who want some form of power, be it power over their own lives or power over an entire nation. There's a certain level of comfort in having control and stability in a person's life, such as owning a home and having a good and stable job that provides a man a decent standard of living. After all, Maslow's hierarchy of needs puts physiological needs at the very bottom for a reason. If you aren't sure where your next meal is coming from or if you'll even have enough warmth to survive the night, you're not going to be too concerned about what others think of you because you'll be dead. After the physiological comes safety, then belonging and love, followed by esteem.

In modern society, most people who can partake in Warhammer 40k have the first two, possibly three, needs covered to some capacity. They live in a home that offers them safety and have likely found a sense of belonging if not a loved one who is part of their lives, which allows them to pursue esteem, often described as the "self-respect and respect from others", and that's where the fantasy can start to play out for both men and women, but how they go about actualizing this varies from person to person. For a lot of men, they view respect as power, which is why something like ruling a space empire can appeal to them. Look at how 'powerful' men like Putin and Xi Jinping are treated in certain online communities, as powerful men who rule their countries with an iron fist.

I think it's a common thing for everyone, at some point or another, want to be the one calling the shots, and it's not limited to just men. Women too talk about how they'd do something different if they were in charge, or have dreams of taking over one day. These fantasies range from simply making something more efficient to simply being able to make the decisions they're certain their boss is too afraid to make, comforted by the knowledge that they still have a job tomorrow and that their boss is still the one making such a call and not them. It's easy to criticize when you don't have all the facts, after all.

But that said, not every person who partakes in Warhammer 40k has the same fantasy. Technically the Emperor is the most powerful figure in the entire game, but no one wants to be him in his current iteration as a slowly decaying corpse on a throne. Roubute Guilliman and Lionel Johnsson are primarchs, but are at war with most of the galaxy trying to save an empire on the brink of collapse. While there are plenty of people who fantasize about the power of a primarch, I don't know many who would want to be these particular two. Most people I know want to be more the front line warrior, a space marine or something similar, doing their part for the collective whole of humanity. Or they just want to burn it all down and worship Tzeench or something insane like that, or grow three tits and worship the Prince of Pleasure.

My point is that while Dune and Warhammer 40k both feature large space empires, if you strip away a lot of their more fantastic elements they're not dissimilar to other stories like Lord of the Rings. Large and powerful kingdoms ruled by a handful of people in a war for their survival with powerful figures who exemplify qualities that a lot of people envy. Charisma, good looks, an ability to lead people and speak from the heart while having the wit and intelligence to avoid saying the wrong thing at the wrong time. Those qualities are what make people fall in love with celebrities, who behind the scenes have entire legal teams and marketing teams to make sure they put their best foot forward at all times to avoid falling out of that limelight that everyone has seen them in.

If anything, Warhammer 40k and Dune and Lord of the Rings and Conan the Barbarian and countless others do a good job of painting one or two people as powerful, charismatic and influential people who are the envy of those around them, both on and off the page. Because of this, men and women alike find the characters fascinating and want to emulate them, and sometimes it's interpreted as a fantasy for a particular group. But, as I said in the beginning, there are people who will always feel attracted to that kind of position of power, men and women, and that is where the fantasy is. Even if it's just lusting after your boss' job, you want power and authority and respect. Some people just dream bigger and want to rule a star empire, and others are fine just being in a position to tell Becky to stop eating all the donuts in the breakroom.

[Oniya]

Calling it a 'male' fantasy is a little limiting, but I suppose they're short of buzzwords.  It probably hearkens back to the days of Robert E. Howard and Edgar Rice Burroughs, where the nobody-hero (who is admittedly possessed of mighty thews, formidable acrobatic skills, and a keen wit) eventually ends up on top of the social structure, usually with a scantily clad and curvaceous woman or three  (John Carter may have been devoted to Dejah Thoris, but Conan was a love 'em and leave 'em sort). 

'Female fantasy' in the same context would be something akin to the covers of Harlequin romances, where the nobody-heroine ends up in the arms of a man with mighty thews, formidable acrobatic skills, and a keen wit.  Something familiar about that...

The term has obviously evolved somewhat from that time, as Dune requires its characters to wear a lot more clothing.  ;)

[Beorning]

Thank you for the input regarding my weirdo question :)

What I'm wondering is, I'd say, two things:

• Are fantasies involving being a ruler, a conqueror etc. more prevalent in men than women?
• If so, is this difference ingrained on some biological level, or is it more a matter of culture and upbringing?

I know that, when me and my sister were watching Game of Thrones, my sister was quite bored by lengthy fight scenes - while I liked watching them. Also, I must admit that I recently started reading WH40K books - and I was surprised to learn that yes, big battle scenes involving Kharn and other World Eaters were very cool on some primal level...

On the other hand, my fantasies also include the reverse of the "Harlequin female fantasy" described above, i.e. ending in the arms of an amazing, intelligent and influential woman. So I don't really know :)

[GloomCookie]

There are basic biological differences in boys and girls, and these have been observed before the children can even vocalize words. For example, they put a baby on one side of a barrier and their mother on the other. Both cried, wanting their mother, but the boys would try to tear down the barrier while the girls would instead seek help. There are other differences naturally, such as men having more muscle mass on average than women.

Really, I do think biology does play a role in how a person thinks and acts. But, there is also a cultural component to it as well, given that people do tend to fall in line with the greater whole, and those who operate outside the cultural norms are often ostracized and outcast. If you were a woman in the 1950s who didn't want to settle down and marry right out of high school, you were looked at like you had 3 heads, even if only a decade earlier women were welding airplanes together while the men were off fighting across the planet.

Up until recently, D&D and other such hobbies were niche and very exclusive, both from fans gatekeeping it and also because most were considered nerds, and it wasn't cool to be a nerd. This mentality of being an outcast because of your personality can itself brew a sort of power fantasy from people who don't really have a lot of respect. Picture the stereotypical nerd who gets bullied in school, only has a handful of friends, and generally isn't very popular or charismatic. He is absolutely the kind of person who would dream of ruling a space empire, with a harem of women and the ability to command thousands of soldiers to do his bidding without question.

Even with Matt Mercer and others making D&D popular among the mainstream, not all hobbies are considered as such. The price alone of wargaming can put off people looking to get into it, and even more price conscious hobbies can and do have toxic fanbases that can lead to problems, along with rather unhealthy obsessions. I'm looking at you, Hearts of Iron 4 community. The number of Wehreboos in there is disturbing.

And sometimes it simply comes down to the individual. It doesn't matter how they're wired due to biology, doesn't matter how they're wired due to culture, they're going to get interested in something just because. 

But, I've rambled on for a bit and dodged the issue of if these are particularly male fantasies, and I'd say that, in general, these are typically male fantasies and typically targeted to male demographics because they're the most likely to purchase and embrace them, but that is not a guarantee. 

[Wing]

Thank you for the input regarding my weirdo question :)

What I'm wondering is, I'd say, two things:

• Are fantasies involving being a ruler, a conqueror etc. more prevalent in men than women?
• If so, is this difference ingrained on some biological level, or is it more a matter of culture and upbringing?

I know that, when me and my sister were watching Game of Thrones, my sister was quite bored by lengthy fight scenes - while I liked watching them. Also, I must admit that I recently started reading WH40K books - and I was surprised to learn that yes, big battle scenes involving Kharn and other World Eaters were very cool on some primal level...

On the other hand, my fantasies also include the reverse of the "Harlequin female fantasy" described above, i.e. ending in the arms of an amazing, intelligent and influential woman. So I don't really know :)

I would say that the fantasy of ruling isn't inherently masculine, but patriarchy has made it more prevalently masculine. Ruling an empire is a masculine fantasy because, with some very few exceptions, Europe (to use one example) has only ever had male emperors. Even when women held power (Zenobia, Augusta) they did so either unofficially or through men. When women stood to inherit empires or kingdoms they usually did so with difficulty (e.g. the Pragmatic Sanction or Jadwiga being crowned King).

To throw some numbers at you, France has had no queens regnant, nor has Germany (as either the Holy Roman or German Empires). The average number of female monarchs for those that allow them is about 4 (e.g. Portugal and Denmark). The UK (looking just at monarchs in England) has had the most at 7, except if you look at Navarre, but that's a bit much for a Friday evening for me.

So ruling is seen as a male fantasy because for most of history it's been the pinnacle of male achievement. That's not necessarily a good thing, and causes all other kinds of issues, but that's likely where the actual statement with regards to Dune comes from. Even in Dune, Jessica, Irulan and Chani aren't rulers despite wielding power, and even Alia was only regent. 

[Oniya]

The number of Wehreboos in there is disturbing.

This is my new favorite word.

[midnightblack]

So, now I'm wondering: is there really such a thing as "male fantasy" involving war, conquest etc.? Does wargaming and epic SF / fantasy appeal to it?

Well, to paraphrase Clarissa Mao from The Expanse in a discussion regarding the motivations behind totalitarianism (if I recall correctly, this was written somewhere in the 7th book):

Some men simply have to own everything.

[Humble Scribe]

Well, to paraphrase Clarissa Mao from The Expanse in a discussion regarding the motivations behind totalitarianism (if I recall correctly, this was written somewhere in the 7th book):

I regard that as a pathology, frankly, but I wonder if it's a purely male desire, or whether men have just had more opportunities to indulge it (albeit thanks to the societies that they have constructed to restrain the other half of the population).

Personally I have no desire to rule anything and don't even enjoy having staff responsibilities. Real life is too messy and difficult. But I do enjoy wargaming and SF/fantasy.

[Chulanowa]

Dune

male fantasy

What, your fantasy isn't about being the progeny of galactic-scale Eugenics that results in you being a prescient being whose so distraught by what you see in the future that you go totally off the rails, Oof 1/4 the galaxy, and then chicken out and leave your equally prescient son to become the living substrate for sand-based parasites resulting in him becoming a godlike annelid monster that exists for thousands of years until he falls in a pool and dies, leaving the entire galaxy to the mercy of crazy witches who mind control the universe through their kung fu grip vaginas, with your last descendant being a girl who's invisible to prescience who hooks up with your dad's old war buddy that has been cloned a million times and then HE becomes the prescient being who gets visited by two weirdoes in the space between space and creates the biggest sci-fi cliffhanger in history?

weirdo.

[Oniya]

godlike annelid monster

Space penis.

[Chulanowa]

Space penis.

S P E N I C E

[Missy]

Well what I know is I'm a girl and I enjoy the Grand Strategy genre immensely.

I doubt that has anything to do with my being born with a testosterone system and really I think it's just fun and engaging the fiction of guiding the affairs both civil and military of one state or another.

[LostInTheMist]

So I'll be honest that one of the ways I like to relax is to fire up a strategy game like Civ (any of them, though IV, V, and VI are easier to get working these days) or Crusader Kings, or Master of Orion II, or Stellaris, and sweep over the world or Galaxy. I don't tend to do the nitty gritty, RTS games. I prefer the grander, sweeping conquests. A game that asks me in a pop-up menu if I want to keep the city I just conquered or raze it to the ground, or an orbital view with a button to blow up a planet.

I've never really considered it as "male" fantasy it's just a "me" fantasy. I guess I've always felt like exerting control over a universe full of people helps me cope with the parts of my real life that I can't control.

[Gremgoblin]

For as long as I've been on this earth and aware of my own thoughts, I've dreamt of being a knight, soldier, etc. I don't think it's necessarily the act of rulership that appeals to men -- there's a reason we joke about how no matter how stable the earth is, the boys yearn to die in a meaningless conflict on the continent. If you look at these two specific examples (WH, 40k or not and Dune) they are both worlds rife with strife with a lot of great men of history types of figures running around, most of whom are warriors in some capacity. I think we want to be great men of history, but that's just based on my own experiences and anecdotes. Men want to be (anti-)heroes and I think male fantasy definitions of heroes differ greatly from those of women, but I am not sure, because I've not consumed a great deal of media aimed at women.