Israel / Hamas Conflict in the West Bank

[RedPhoenix]

Don't let the fact that Al-Jazeera showed video of the rocket strike coming from within Gaza, or that Islamic Jihad bragged about a massive rocket attack of theirs one minute before the hospital explosion happened, or that Hamas blamed America for the attack after failing to convince anyone Israel did it stop you from just copy-pasting antisemitic propaganda in this thread. Again.

You guys even had a full day after this to realize this was a lie and you still rushed to post it the moment E came back up. That's pathetic hate-mongering.

https://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-israel-hamas-gaza-palestinians-a85cb682fdc61b80285cf4ab354354ce

https://news.yahoo.com/biden-outraged-gaza-hospital-blast-091018474.html

https://english.alarabiya.net/News/middle-east/2023/10/18/Hamas-leader-says-US-holds-responsibility-for-Gaza-hospital-attack-

And the claim that the hospital was destroyed is also false. The hospital is still standing, there are some burned out cars in the parking lot:

https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1714525590873575600?t=18O8tKmevbIoZdwRMYRLgA&s=19

Which again, much more consistent with a failed terrorist hit against Israel landing in the wrong spot (as anywhere from 20-30% of attempts to attack Israel do, something that would stop people that gave a damn about folks living in Gaza but these terrorist groups obviously don't). And also exactly where video shows the failed rocket attack from within Gaza landing.

All you guys had to do was wait and not just instantly try to spin everything against Israel to see all this instead of rushing to spread antisemitic propaganda at every chance. You should honestly be ashamed of yourselves.

Spreading antisemitic lies is not harmless. They are leading to incidents like synagogues being firebombed:

https://apnews.com/article/germany-berlin-synagogue-antisemitism-fdd10f32f7d5efc6da973f00c9a8b030

Crowds of "pro-Palestine" rallies chanting "Gas the Jews":

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/12/queensland-laws-antisemitic-chants-hate-crime

A 300% increase in antisemitic incidents in the UK:

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2023/10/17/secretary-mayorkas-delivers-remarks-conference-presidents-major-american-jewish

a "scary" rise in crimes against Jews in Canada including hate crimes at high schools:

https://www.reuters.com/world/trudeau-says-canada-faces-scary-rise-antisemitism-after-war-middle-east-2023-10-18/

Jews were already the second most targeted minority group in America, disproportionately so due to having a lower population than many of the other groups targeted by hate crimes (anti-black, anti-Jew, anti-LGBT, and anti-Muslim had the most hate incidents targeting them in 2022):

https://abc7chicago.com/fbi-hate-crime-statistics-racism-antisemitism-islamophobia/13930789/

And when you spread lies meant to fan hatred instead of waiting to see what the truth is you make it worse.

Stop.

[Chulanowa]

RedPhoenix,

Israel is conducting a military offensive against one of the most densely-populated regions of the earth. It has, and is going to continue, turning hundreds or thousands of innocent people into human spaghetti.

It's pretty much going to be nothing but unpleasant news going forward.

If you really want to equate me to someone firebombing a synagogue because I'm sharing that news, well, you go right ahead. I know better, and I'm pretty certain you actually know better too.

But hey, just because there's a hideous war crime going on doesn't mean that somewhat sweet news is impossible to find.

A man and his donkey ensure Gaza people don’t go thirsty amid Israeli siege


Gaza City – Jameel al-Karoubi has grown accustomed to his new daily routine over the past nine days.
Every day, he wakes before sunrise. Then, after taking care of whatever his family needs, he and Almond, his donkey, head out into the cratered streets of Gaza to distribute clean drinking water to the people in his neighbourhood from the back of his cart.

“I made a deal with my buddy Almond, that if he keeps waking up early every day and helps me fill the water tank and distribute it to the neighbourhood, I’d give him an extra bag of food every day,” Jameel tells Al Jazeera.

“And since then, he’s kept our deal.”

Before the war began, the 34-year-old man used to sell vegetables off the back of his cart. Now, since the bombardment began, he and Almond do what they can to make a difference for as many people as possible.

A few years ago, Jameel, whose name means “beautiful” in Arabic, inherited a well after his father’s death.

Now, before he attends to his family’s water needs, he fills two large tanks and walks around the neighbourhood, calling out to his neighbours to bring out their gallon tanks and water bags for him to refill.

Jameel lives with his mother, wife and his four children, and says their well holds enough water to keep his neighbours from going thirsty after Israeli forces cut water and electricity supplies to the enclave more than a week ago.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/17/a-man-and-his-donkey-making-sure-gazas-people-dont-go-thirsty

[elone]

If one keeps saying the sky is falling, no one will listen at some point. The same can be said for  the charge of antisemitism. How can one defend Israel when for years they have stolen, looted, and discriminated against Palestinians. There is no excuse for murder, whether it is done by Palestinian terrorists or IDF and settlers.

Of course there is this, one of many:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/israeli-crowds-chant-racist-slogans-taunt-palestinians-during-jerusalem-day-march

[RedPhoenix]

RedPhoenix,

Israel is conducting a military offensive against one of the most densely-populated regions of the earth. It has, and is going to continue, turning hundreds or thousands of innocent people into human spaghetti.

It's pretty much going to be nothing but unpleasant news going forward.

If you really want to equate me to someone firebombing a synagogue because I'm sharing that news, well, you go right ahead. I know better, and I'm pretty certain you actually know better too.

But hey, just because there's a hideous war crime going on doesn't mean that somewhat sweet news is impossible to find.

Bear witness to the level of gaslighting you deal with when the truth matters to you.

Chulanowa cared a great deal about that hospital when he thought it was full of dead Palestinians that he could blame on Israel. Now that his lies have been revealed he's completely forgotten about it.

In fact from this post you wouldn't even know he ever mentioned it. This is the social media playbook. Lie lie lie and then act like you didn't (but if I did it's okay because Israel bad).

Spreading hate and lies matters. I know you think you're a good boy for doing it against Israel, you're not. It's wrong when fundamentalists spread lies about the LGBT in America, it's wrong when hate mongers spread lies about Muslims, it was wrong when they spread lies about the George Floyd protests, and its wrong when you're doing it here.

"It's okay because the people I'm lying about are bad" doesn't cut it. It's what literally every hate monger says. Stop it.

You have the whole of the internet to spread antisemitic lies on. Hell you'll be celebrated on most of it. Go do it there. Leave Elliquiy hate free. It's not that much to ask.

If one keeps saying the sky is falling, no one will listen at some point. The same can be said for  the charge of antisemitism.

The thing you were arguing doesn't exist a few posts up before you made an open call for bloodshed?

I'm not terribly worried about when you think it's okay to use that word.

[Chulanowa]

Bear witness to the level of gaslighting you deal with when the truth matters to you.

Chulanowa cared a great deal about that hospital when he thought it was full of dead Palestinians that he could blame on Israel. Now that his lies have been revealed he's completely forgotten about it.

In fact from this post you wouldn't even know he ever mentioned it. This is the social media playbook. Lie lie lie and then act like you didn't (but if I did it's okay because Israel bad).

Redphoenix, you compared me to someone who firebombed a synagogue, because I posted unpleasant news about Israel's actions in Gaza. I'm certain you can easily fathom why I chose to not bother giving you more of a response than I did. 

That absurdity aside...

For the Palestinians who did flee south, things aren't any easier. Khan Younis doesn't really have the infrastructure to self-sustain, even without all these refugees taking shelter there. Even a claim of smallpox spreading. 

The devastating effects of the Gaza war on Khan Younis are growing each day. Loved ones are departing this life and thousands of people are fleeing south, adding to the already dire humanitarian crisis. Civilians are crying out to be rescued from this catastrophe — but can anyone hear us?


Hundreds of thousands of Gazans have escaped south since Friday, when the Israeli army ordered the citizens of northern Gaza to evacuate. Hundreds fled to UNRWA schools, others to Nasser Medical Hospital, and some to their friends’ and relatives’ homes. Within just a few days, the population of Khan Younis — the largest city in the southern part of the strip — has swelled dramatically.

Khalid Al-Bura’y, a 35-year-old father from Gaza City, has been forced to relocate his family multiple times in the last week and a half. “When the war started, we fled to the UNRWA school [in Gaza City],” he said. “But later, the schools were no longer safe, as many of them were badly damaged [by Israeli airstrikes]. Then the occupation forces ordered us to flee south, and that’s why I moved with my family and my brother’s family to an UNRWA school in the west of Khan Younis.”

Al-Bura’y warned that conditions at the school are unsustainable. “Life here is extremely difficult. There is no drinking water. There is no power and communication with the outside world is almost cut off. We cannot bear this situation. We have children who want to eat and none of the things we need are here. The weather is getting colder and there are not enough blankets. My children will get sick.”

Overcrowded shelters are liable to lead to devastating second-order effects on public health, with reports of infectious diseases spreading, including smallpox. “Prior to the war against Gaza, smallpox had spread in the schools between students,” said Suad Muhsen, a 37-year-old mother. “I used to watch out for my children then, but when the war began and we fled to schools, I noticed [a smallpox rash] on some of the children and became afraid that my children will get infected. The medical and humanitarian situation of the UNRWA schools is extremely bad. Because of the water shortage, it’s [difficult to maintain] hygiene. We’re suffering trying to survive in any way we can.”

https://www.972mag.com/khan-younis-humanitarian-crisis/

[Oniya]

Israel bombed al-Ahli baptist hospital in Gaza, killing at least 500. Of course Israel has blamed this on a "misfired rocket from Islamic Jihad," which the group denies. Well they should because it's a frankly absurd claim, especially when you consider that Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari also claims that "there was no direct hit" and the strike "a kind of hit in the parking lot." Doctors Without Borders disagrees.


This is the second attack by Israel on the hospital in two days.

In response, Jordan has cancelled its participation in the planned summit with Biden, Abbas, and Egypt's el-Sisi in Amman. Mahmoud Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority has also (rahter understandably, given everything)  canceled his participation, effectively ending the conference entirely. So basically Biden's just flying out to Israel.

Speaking of which, despite pulling out all the stops to evacuate US citizens from Israel, the US has done literally nothing for the hundreds of US citizens in Gaza.

Actually, the US Department of State has been, and is currently working on ways to evacuate US citizens in Gaza. 

[RedPhoenix]

Redphoenix, you compared me to someone who firebombed a synagogue,

False. As false as everything else you've said about me in this thread. I gave that as an example of what antisemitism leads to.

You just have no shame at all about posting lies do you?

[RedPhoenix]

because I posted unpleasant news about Israel's actions in Gaza.

You didn't do this either.

You posted a lie. A lie straight from the mouth of Hamas. A lie based on actions taken by Islamic Jihad, not Israel.

[Chulanowa]

Actually, the US Department of State has been, and is currently working on ways to evacuate US citizens in Gaza. 

Oh! That's good then. I mean understandably it's a lot easier to get people out of Israel, but still, that was a long period of silence on these particular US citizens. Thanks for the update!

[RedPhoenix]

If anyone is genuinely still in the dark about this:

The US government assesses that Israel “was not responsible” for the blast at a hospital in Gaza on Tuesday, according to the National Security Council, following President Joe Biden’s comments that a Palestinian militant group was behind the strike.

A spokesperson for the NSC, Adrienne Watson, said the assessment was based on available reporting, including “intelligence, missile activity, and open source video and images of the incident.”

“While we continue to collect information, our current assessment, based on analysis of overhead imagery, intercepts and open-source information, is that Israel is not responsible for the explosion at the hospital in Gaza yesterday,” Watson said in a statement on Wednesday.

The NSC followed up with an additional statement Wednesday afternoon leaning further into its assessment. “Intelligence indicates that some Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip believed that the explosion was likely caused by an errant rocket or missile launch carried out by Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ). The militants were still investigating what had happened,” Watson said.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/10/18/politics/us-intel-gaza-hospital-blast/index.html

On Wednesday, Conservative former minister Stephen Crabb told the Commons: “Last night, sections of the British media were reporting as fact that it was Israeli rockets that had landed and attacked the al Ahli hospital, relying on information supplied by terrorist-controlled Gaza.

“The headlines have since been rewritten but the outpouring of Jew-hate on social media overnight was vile.

“So would the Prime Minister please make the point again that the way that this conflict is being reported has massive implications for our Jewish community and that any information coming from Hamas must be treated with a degree of scrutiny and cross-examination that is sadly sometimes lacking?”

Mr Sunak said: “He is absolutely right that we should not rush to judgment before we have all the facts on the appalling situation that we saw yesterday, particularly given the sensitivities that he raises, the impact on communities here, but also across the region.

“As I said, it is incumbent on all of those in positions of responsibility in this House and outside in the media to recognise that the words we say will have an impact and we should be careful with them.”

After reiterating that the UK is working with allies to establish the truth about what happened, Mr Sunak added: “He is right to point out in the same way as that we don’t treat what comes out of the Kremlin as the gospel truth, we should not do the same with Hamas.”

https://www.breakingnews.ie/israel-hamas/pm-on-gaza-hospital-blast-reporting-hamas-should-be-distrusted-like-the-kremlin-1541110.html

[Oniya]

I'm also going to remind everybody of this post:

For our general policy, we will be tackling misinformation directly.

For some topics, people's lives and memories are at stake. We expect everyone to perform due diligence when speaking on such subjects, and source them clearly. If someone makes a claim and refuses to properly source, please report the matter. Outside of documenting events, Twitter and Youtube are generally not sources.

Except for spreading accusations against people, which is simply good taste, these subjects will evolve with time. We want them to be as clear and specific as possible.

• Accusations against individuals and groups must be clearly and reliably sourced. (In PROC) or does not belong on the site period. We've seen a lot of smear campaigns, including one member making false accusations about murder victims, 'justifying' their murder. Speaking ill of the dead is in general pretty poor taste, of course.
• Covid-19 misinformation. Namely antimaskers, but also false treatments.
• Antivaxxer misinformation. Citing long-discredited studies, or alarmism about chemicals you don't understand.
• Electoral misinformation. There's a reason Trump's lawyers never presented any evidence and got their cases thrown out. Because they never had any.

It is horrific that things have devolved to this point. People who are full of shit need to stop being entertained.

Thank you.

[GloomCookie]

Thank you, Oniya. I really don't want to lock this thread again to let tempers cool. Please be civil and rational and have actual conversations, not just finger pointing and making personal attacks please.

[RedPhoenix]

Thank you Oniya. Hopefully we can see an end to misinformation being spread in this thread.

Here's another article about a direct consequence of spreading hate-filled lies. A historic synagogue in Tunisia was torn down and burned to rubble with Palestinian flags planted there, video of the arson freely shared with a Palestine hashtag, all just hours after Hamas falsely blamed Israel for the hospital attack and it was spread around social media like wildfire (including here).

A historic but defunct synagogue in Tunisia was reduced to rubble on Tuesday amid mass rioting after an explosion in a Gaza hospital that terror group Hamas and much of the Arab world blamed on Israel.

Hundreds of people were filmed setting fire to a synagogue in the central Tunisian city of Al Hammah in the hours after the explosion, at a Gaza City hospital where Hamas said many people died. Videos that circulated widely on social media showed people planting Palestinian flags and chipping away at the synagogue building’s stone walls, all without any police intervention.

Some users shared the video of the arson alongside a “#Palestine” hashtag. A video taken Wednesday shows heavy damage to the site, including to the fenced-off grave of a 16th-century rabbi that been a historic pilgrimage site for some Jews.

...

Protests against Israel ramped up Tuesday night after the hospital explosion, for which Israel has provided proof was caused by an errant rocket fired by Gaza terrorists. Dozens of rioters targeted the Israeli embassy in Amman, Jordan. Riots also broke out in Palestinian areas of the West Bank, Hebrew media reported.

...

The Al Hammah synagogue was not an active site of worship, as no Jews live in the city; however, it is the site of the tomb of 16th-century Kabbalist Rabbi Yosef Ma’aravi. The same site was previously damaged during the 2011 Arab Spring protests, which were not about Israel.

The American Jewish Committee denounced the vandalism in a statement.

“We are horrified by the burning and destruction of the Al Hammah synagogue in Tunisia,” the group said on X, adding that it was “closely monitoring the situation” and in touch with Tunisian Jewish community leaders.

Tunisia’s small Jewish population of around 1,000 also contended with a deadly terrorist attack earlier this year when a gunman stormed a synagogue on the island of Djerba. Five people died, including two Jewish pilgrims who had traveled to the area from Israel and France, and wounding several others.

In response to the Djerba attack, Tunisia’s president, Kais Saied, pledged he would increase security for the country’s Jewish residents. Saied also drew criticism for using the occasion of the attack to criticize Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/historic-synagogue-in-tunisia-heavily-damaged-in-rioting-tied-to-israel-hamas-war/

The people who did this would have you believe this was "for Palestine" and to show solidarity in reaction to an Israeli attack that didn't happen. It goes without saying that it in no way benefits the people of Gaza to burn a synagogue in Tunisia. Nor does it even strike back against Israel in any way (even if they had been responsible). What it is is an expression of hatred against Jews fanned by the flames of lies on social media.

Not Pro-Palestine. Not Anti-Israel. Anti-Jew violence in direct response to a lie spread on social media. Thank goodness there aren't any Jews living in the area.

This shit isn't harmless. Exercise some critical thinking and restraint before you jump into enabling age old hatred. It's really not too much to ask.

[Chulanowa]

False. As false as everything else you've said about me in this thread. I gave that as an example of what antisemitism leads to.

You just have no shame at all about posting lies do you?

All of the very few things I've said about you in this thread are true though. Your criticism of Mondoweiss was silly. You were citing DailyMail, which has let's generously call it a "spotty record." And then you did straight-up called me an antisemite for posting a current news story, then you definitely segued from there into antisemite arsonists firebombing a synagogue in Berlin. What you're doing isn't hard to see. Since you've actually tried this move a few times on the thread, I'm guessing you think it's pretty clever. And maybe it works on people less used to this shit. I am not such a person.

I have no real interest in deflecting this thread any further into a silly and meaningless personal slapfight with you, Phoenix. if that's what you want, maybe someone else can provide for your needs. Good day.

[RedPhoenix]

What you're doing isn't hard to see. Since you've actually tried this move a few times on the thread, I'm guessing you think it's pretty clever.

Drawing a direct line between spreading hatred and lies online and violence in real life was never meant to be hard to see. Educating people about that is the entire point. I'm glad it got through to you.

You're the only one who cares about who comes off as clever. I know I'll never come across as clever on these threads because I'm not as experienced as you when it comes to picking fights over politics. I'm completely fine with that.

I just want people to stop using Elliquiy as a means to fan religious and ethnic hatred by spreading lies here.

It's really not a huge ask.

[elone]

I'm not terribly worried about when you think it's okay to use that word.

I am wondering why you continue to make this stuff up?  I don't think I ever called for bloodshed. And just what am I arguing? Is that a question? That would be akin to my asking why you hate Muslims and want them all to be driven out of what is claimed as Israel proper. Israel has no borders except those assigned to it by the UN a long time ago.

I will admit at this point it appears that Israel may not have bombed the hospital. Does that mean thye have killed no civilians, women, children and others?  Who knows what is going on in Gaza. One side is Israel with a history of falsehoods, assassinations and an attitude that Israel must prevail always, and the other Hamas which is no better.

For your information, I do not hate Jews or have any ill feelings toward them. I simply disagree with the government of Israel and their policies which result in a colonial apartheid state. Many do.

[elone]

The thing you were arguing doesn't exist a few posts up before you made an open call for bloodshed?

I'm not terribly worried about when you think it's okay to use that word.

Sorry, whole quote. 

[RedPhoenix]

I am wondering why you continue to make this stuff up?  I don't think I ever called for bloodshed.

I interpreted your post about God giving nothing to anyone and everything being taken by force of arms as an endorsement of violence.

In reading back, I was not giving you the benefit of the doubt. If you meant it as just as sad reflection of reality, I understand that, I don't even disagree with it (although I would like it not to be true) and if that is how you mean it then I apologize for reading your words in the worst way I could. I'm sorry. 

That would be akin to my asking why you hate Muslims and want them all to be driven out of what is claimed as Israel proper. Israel has no borders except those assigned to it by the UN a long time ago.

I don't. Neither does Israel. 18% of Israel is Muslim. It's the largest minority group in the country. Attacks on Israel harm Muslims too. One of the most recent Hamas barrages hit a mosque, for instance. Israel is a wonderful place where many cultures and faiths come together and many people have rights and protections they wouldn't enjoy anywhere else in the world. ...as long as you live on the right side of the wall.

I will admit at this point it appears that Israel may not have bombed the hospital.

Thank you. I give you credit for being rational.

Does that mean thye have killed no civilians, women, children and others?  Who knows what is going on in Gaza. One side is Israel with a history of falsehoods, assassinations and an attitude that Israel must prevail always, and the other Hamas which is no better.

"Who knows what's going on" is why we should wait for reliable evidence before making claims, especially when we know what the result of them will be.

I'm not naive. I know lies and hate will spread on the internet and there's nothing I can do about that. I just don't want it happening here.

I don't deny that it's possible Israel has killed innocents with their strikes on Gaza. They say they do all they can to prevent and avoid it. They may even be telling the truth. But with that many people in that small of a space it just seems impossible they haven't. But I'm not going to just assume it has either or just excuse lies because something vaguely similar might have probably happened.

For your information, I do not hate Jews or have any ill feelings toward them. I simply disagree with the government of Israel and their policies which result in a colonial apartheid state. Many do.

That includes me, and many Israelis. There were massive protests against Netanyahu's attempts to seize more power within Israel going on when the Hamas attack happened and it's tragic that this has short-circuited that.

It's also tragic the way Palestinians are treated by Israel. It's tragic seeing them used as pawns in the games of maniacs and their corpses used for points online. It's tragic that their situation was so bad that they saw no choice but to give themselves to Hamas. It's tragic how Hamas has treated them. It's tragic how the world just sat around and watched as an entire generation grew up in a prison state. It's tragic seeing Israel going through exactly what America went through after 9/11 and making the same mistakes (I'm not alone in this - Biden said the same on his trip: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/18/joe-biden-urges-israel-not-be-consumed-by-rage-pledges-support-netanyahu-gaza-hamas ).

That being said, as an American, who does not in any way endorse what my country has done in the middle east I don't blame any Israeli for Netanyahu any more than I blame any Gazan for Hamas. As always the people dying are, for the most part, not the ones responsible.

I'm terrified at how far this will go and I feel powerless to do anything about about innocent people suffering while my country parks its monument to why we don't have healthcare off the coast and watches it happen. (Referring to this in case that was too subtle: https://news.usni.org/2023/10/17/pentagon-extends-uss-gerald-r-ford-deployment-will-move-u-s-marines-closer-to-israel )

I shouldn't take all that out on you though. I'm sorry for that. You've disavowed every odious belief I've been suspicious of and I should give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that. I will try to do that from here on out. Me taking my frustrations at this situation out on you doesn't fix anything. I'm sorry.

[RedPhoenix]

New York Times article about the hostages that were taken in the initial attack.

"Hamas Took Nearly 200 Hostages. Here’s What We Know About Them."
https://www.nytimes.com/article/israel-hostages-hamas-explained.html

199 is the number of hostages that were originally taken it seems. How many are still alive is uncertain.

The U.S. State Department said that at least 13 Americans remained unaccounted for, but it was not clear how many were being held hostage. President Biden said that he had spoken with families of the missing, that he was committed to the recovery effort and that there was “no higher priority than the safety of Americans being held hostage around the world.”

The Pentagon has sent a small team of Special Operations forces to Israel to assist with intelligence and planning to help locate and try to rescue the hostages held by Hamas.

Officials from France and several other countries are also looking into reports that their citizens may be among the captives. “The murdered and the missing come from over 30 countries, including the United Kingdom,” Britain’s prime minister, Rishi Sunak, said. Ten British citizens were missing, some of whom were feared dead, Mr. Sunak said.

This is the first I'm reading that a U.S. special forces team is on the ground in Israel. Makes sense if there are American hostages though.

They include civilians, soldiers, people with disabilities, children, grandparents and even a 9-month-old baby. Some are peace activists, part of collectives near the Gaza border whose members tend to be left of center and supportive of peace initiatives and Palestinian rights. The hostages are also believed to include at least one Palestinian resident of Israel, a bus driver who spent the night near the outdoor party after driving Israelis there, his family said.

Just heartbreaking. A 9-month-old. Peace activists. Some poor dude who was just sleeping by the bus he works from. Of course anyone getting kidnapped is heartbreaking but...I just can't process how anyone could kidnap a 9-month-old child.

Abu Obeida, a spokesman for Hamas’s armed wing, claimed in a statement on the Telegram messaging app that it had hidden “dozens of hostages” in “safe places and the tunnels of the resistance.” The group is said to use an underground network of tunnels, much of it under civilian infrastructure, to travel undetected and move weapons.

Hamas has claimed that several hostages have been killed in Israeli airstrikes. The claims could not be independently verified.

Hamas late Monday released a video of Mia Schem, a 21-year-old who disappeared from the outdoor music and dance festival. In the 60-second video — the first released by the group to show any of the hostages — Ms. Schem is seen receiving medical treatment for a wound.

“At the moment I am in Gaza,” Ms. Schem says in a solemn, clipped voice. She says that she is being looked after and that her arm was operated on for three hours at a hospital. The video ends with her plea to be returned to Israel.

I can't imagine what these poor people are going through. I hope they're all still alive and get released soon.

The United Nations secretary general, António Guterres, has appealed to Hamas to release the hostages immediately “without conditions.”

There is also a chance that Hamas could use the hostages as human shields as Israel strikes Gaza.

Last week, Hamas’s armed wing threatened to execute a civilian hostage every time an Israeli airstrike hit Gazans “in their homes without warning,” but it has since made no announcements about harming them.

Thousands of Palestinians are being held in Israeli prisons, many of them convicted of security offenses or involvement in terrorism. Muhammad Deif, the leader of Hamas’s military wing, cited the detention of thousands of Palestinian militants in Israeli jails as one reason for the Oct. 7 assault.

Release the hostages and Israel's top justification for entering Gaza goes away. If Hamas cared about the people of Gaza they would listen to the UN. They don't, obviously, but I can hope. The language "in their homes without warning" is oddly specific but if there's one thing Israel has been very consistently doing it's been giving warnings. Hopefully it keeps the hostages alive.


And uh, apparently the weapons used were North Korean?!?

"Evidence shows Hamas militants likely used some North Korean weapons in attack on Israel"
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-hamas-north-korea-weapons-703e33663ea299f920d0d14039adfbb8

Hamas fighters likely fired North Korean weapons during their Oct. 7 assault on Israel, a militant video and weapons seized by Israel show, despite Pyongyang’s denials that it arms the militant group.

...

“North Korea has long supported Palestinian militant groups, and North Korean arms have previously been documented amongst interdicted supplies,” Jenzen-Jones told the AP.

Hamas has published images of their fighters with a launcher with a rocket-propelled grenade with a distinctive red stripe across its warhead, and other design elements matching the F-7, said Matt Schroeder, a senior researcher with Small Arms Survey who wrote a guide to Pyongyang’s light weapons.

“It is not a surprise to see North Korean weapons with Hamas,” Schroeder said.

The North Korean F-7 resembles the more widely distributed Soviet-era RPG-7 rocket-propelled grenade, with a few noticeable differences. Jenzen-Jones described the F-7 rocket-propelled grenade as “intended to offer a lethal effect against personnel” given its shape and payload, rather than armored vehicles.

...

North Korea’s mission to the United Nations did not respond to a request for comment from the AP. However, Pyongyang last week through its state-run KCNA news agency dismissed claims that Hamas used its weapons as “a groundless and false rumor” orchestrated by the United States.

Hamas propaganda videos and photos previously have shown its fighters with North Korea’s Bulsae guided anti-tank missile. Jenzen-Jones said he believed, based on imagery of the weapons wielded by Hamas fighters in the Oct. 7 attack, they also used North Korea’s Type 58 self-loading rifle, a variant of the Kalashnikov assault rifle.

“Many North Korean weapons have been provided by Iran to militant groups, and this is believed to be the primary way by which Palestinian militants have come to possess North Korean weapons,” Jenzen-Jones said.

Apparently this North Korea -> Iran -> Terrorist Groups weapons route is a well known thing? I had no idea. Apparently I have been underestimating North Korea, which is not a statement I ever thought I would make.

In December 2009, Thai authorities grounded a North Korean cargo plane reportedly carrying 35 tons of conventional arms, including rockets and rocket-propelled grenades, as it made a refueling stop at a Bangkok airport. Thai officials then said the weapons were headed to Iran. The United States later said in 2012 the shipments interdicted by the Thais had been bound for Hamas.

Thirty Five Tons. And that's just one that got caught!

[GloomCookie]

It would genuinely not surprise me if China was secretly enabling North Korean arms to leave the country. Given the proximity of major US allies to China, anything to disrupt the US is good for China, and the Koreans would need to cross Chinese airspace at some point since they can't exactly cross South Korean airspace without getting shot down.

Also, 35 tons? Even if half the cargo weight was a knock-off AK-47 and 1000 rounds of ammunition (5 kg + 17 kg of ammo) that's still nearly a thousand rifles being sent to Iran. Considering their source, Iran can wipe its hands of them and just dump them in Gaza and suddenly you have a lot of armed insurgents all looking to wreck someone's day.

[elone]

Release the hostages and Israel's top justification for entering Gaza goes away. If Hamas cared about the people of Gaza they would listen to the UN. They don't, obviously, but I can hope. The language "in their homes without warning" is oddly specific but if there's one thing Israel has been very consistently doing it's been giving warnings. Hopefully it keeps the hostages alive.


And uh, apparently the weapons used were North Korean?!?

Thanks for your earlier post, goes a long way toward understanding on both parts.

I do not think that the hostages are Israel's justification for entering Gaza. The hostages may become war fodder. I think it was the whole attack by Hamas.  Gaza has been a thorn in the side of Israel for years (even though they helped create them) and this is the chance to end that. Unfortunately, the people of Gaza are the ones who suffer. They suffered when they had their lands taken and were exiled and they suffered when Israel "mowed the lawn". No one, it seems listens to the UN. If they did, Palestinians would have a country of their own, reparations would be paid for their losses (just like the Germans) and more. The Arab countries did nothing to directly help either, but at least they allowed them in. My prediction. Gaza will be cut in half with millions of Gazans in the south and Israel taking over the north. Israel wants Egypt to take them.  Zionists still insist it is theirs as is all of Israel and some of Jordan and more based on thousands of years old biblical texts.  Why does the world just not turn back the clock those thousands of years?

As for North Korean weapons, Israel is one of the worlds leading suppliers of weaponry to other countries. Look at the poor Armenians.  Israel armed the Azerbaijanis (for the oil) to take over disputed lands and tens of thousands of Armenians were forced to flee, this again after the genocide by Turkey.

Let he who is withoit sins throw the first stone. (paraphrased)

[Oniya]

I rather suspect that the totalitarian states of the region will be cheerfully supplying all the weapons they can to the highest bidders on both sides.  Destabilizing the Middle East serves numerous purposes for Putin, Kim, and Xi.

1) It takes some of the international focus off of them.
2) It brings in some cash.
3) To Russia's benefit, it's likely to disrupt the oil trade, if only as far as getting ships into and out of the area.

[elone]

The morning news. I know it is from a biased site some say, but it is still newsworthy and worth a read.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/500-arrested-at-capitol-as-jewish-activists-demand-gaza-ceasefire/

[Keelan]

The morning news. I know it is from a biased site some say, but it is still newsworthy and worth a read.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/10/500-arrested-at-capitol-as-jewish-activists-demand-gaza-ceasefire/

Other sites are reporting , though I think the numbers listed differ - the 500 seems to be related to the tweet they cite from Jewish Voice for Peace: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/protest-israel-hamas-ceasefire-congress.html

[RedPhoenix]

Thanks for your earlier post, goes a long way toward understanding on both parts.

I do not think that the hostages are Israel's justification for entering Gaza.

Let me see if I can rephrase better. International tolerance of Israel's justification for entering Gaza, I think is largely premised on the hostages. The pressure from Jewish communities around the world and sympathetic friends is almost entirely based on "rescue the hostages." Take that away and I think a lot of American/European sympathy for a ground assault vanishes.

The Arab countries did nothing to directly help either, but at least they allowed them in.

Many of them aren't even doing that anymore! Jordan (who has the most Palestinian refugees of any country before this war) has said no more, Syria and Lebanon don't have the resources for anyone, Egypt has reluctantly agreed to some aid but only with massive US pressure (and Egypt is also overwhelmed currently with refugees).

Saudi Arabia incidentally passed a law that let refugees there apply for citizenship after ten years, a law which specifically excluded Palestinians. ( https://www.arabnews.com/node/262342 ) The justification Saudi Arabia gives is that they want them to return to their homeland instead, but the disconnect between how giving them rights and protections in Saudi Arabia would stop that from happening is pretty transparent, and no other group gets that treatment.

Palestinians cannot get a break anywhere.

I have written to every one of my representatives asking them to push for a path for Gazan refugees to be let into the U.S. (ignoring that we don't have a functioning House). It took us six weeks to have such a path for Ukrainians after that war broke out and that was for a people who are seen as white Christians who had a lot of ways to escape and a lot of friendly places to stop on the way.

And pretty much every response I've gotten has been this (minus the wit and nuance): https://www.theonion.com/the-onion-stands-with-israel-because-it-seems-like-yo-1850922505 ("‘The Onion’ Stands With Israel Because It Seems Like You Get In Less Trouble For That"). Just a bland and generic I stand with Israel. Yeah...wasn't asking you not to.

I rather suspect that the totalitarian states of the region will be cheerfully supplying all the weapons they can to the highest bidders on both sides.  Destabilizing the Middle East serves numerous purposes for Putin, Kim, and Xi.

1) It takes some of the international focus off of them.
2) It brings in some cash.
3) To Russia's benefit, it's likely to disrupt the oil trade, if only as far as getting ships into and out of the area.

The stuff I've been reading suggests that Russia is more need of weapons going into Russia to support their attack on Ukraine - that Iranian drones being sold to Russia is a large part of what motivates Iran to keep wars going in that area, and that international aid being diverted from Ukraine to Israel will prolong that war and thus make more money for Iran.

And yeah wars drive up the price of oil, which everyone in that part of the world loves.

But it's not just totalitarian states that profit from war sadly. Israel gets a lot of its weapons from America still. Too many horrible people get too rich off of misery.

Other sites are reporting , though I think the numbers listed differ - the 500 seems to be related to the tweet they cite from Jewish Voice for Peace: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/18/world/middleeast/protest-israel-hamas-ceasefire-congress.html

There are anti-war rallies/demonstrations/gatherings going on all over the world they are just only getting coverage when someone gets arrested or breaks something, as is always the case.

I've been to two such gatherings locally since this started. Other than a few random assholes everyone has been very respectful and sympathetic. I've seen people with Israeli flags hugging people with Palestinian flags and crying together. Of course that doesn't make the news ever.

The first one I went to there were a few cops there just watching. When they told us they were leaving because they obviously weren't needed the one Neo-Nazi asshole practically bolted for his car. Never seen a 400 lb guy move that fast.