Extreme Slowness?

[Autumn Sativus]

Not sure if it's just me, but the past few minutes I've been waiting ages for a page to load. I just captured this one from the main page

Page created in 8.906 seconds with 10 queries.

That's pretty intense compared to normally - I notice a slowness at 3 seconds.

Figured it was worth noting. Not sure if it's just me.

[Lady Quixote]

I have not, it's been in the sub seconds for me...although it is about four hours later and I'm coming in from a different part of the country.

Matt

[Vekseid]

Not sure if it's just me, but the past few minutes I've been waiting ages for a page to load. I just captured this one from the main pageThat's pretty intense compared to normally - I notice a slowness at 3 seconds.

Figured it was worth noting. Not sure if it's just me.

If you can combine that with an exact timestamp I might be able to pick out what queries were occurring.

[Autumn Sativus]

It was literally just before I posted that. So Between 5:09am and 5:10am EST

[Naiah]

Getting some slow loads now, this one was at 3.06 am Central EU time

Page created in 5.727 seconds with 14 queries.

A few mins ago when I was posting in my RP it was even longer, almost thought it would crash and quickly had to copy the post.

[Vekseid]

It was literally just before I posted that. So Between 5:09am and 5:10am EST

Elliquiy generates thousands of queries per second during peak - that really isn't specific enough : /

Copy the time from the top of the page too, when it happens, please.

[Naiah]

Page created in 7.425 seconds with 14 queries.

5.09 am

Ooops sorry Veks, just realised you needed seconds. Will remember next time!

[Naiah]

Page created in 9.152 seconds with 26 queries.

January 27, 2013, 01:31:32 AM

[Naiah]

Its reeeally slow right now.

Page created in 61.158 seconds with 23 queries.

January 27, 2013, 11:30:37 PM

[Caeli]

It's kind of off and on for me. There was one page that took over 20 seconds to lad, but I clicked out of it and didn't capture the exact time stamp.

Page created in 7.807 seconds with 16 queries.
January 27, 2013, 02:36:00 PM

Page created in 12.832 seconds with 355 queries.
January 27, 2013, 02:45:01 PM

Page created in 29.105 seconds with 16 queries.
January 27, 2013, 02:49:38 PM

[Remy]

It's been pretty bad for me just in the last 30 seconds. It actually took over a minute for a short post to load.

[Naiah]

Page created in 84.068 seconds with 25 queries.

January 28, 2013, 12:09:21 AM

[Autumn Sativus]

Page created in 66.677 seconds with 20 queries. 6:09:09 EST

It's been really bad the past few minutes.

[Moraline]

Same here. Was so bad at one point, I let it run for several minutes then gave up and just closed the window instead.

[Jag]

E's been super slow for me for the past few hours.

[Geil]

Likewise here. Been varying between sluggish and slow over the past ten minutes or so.

E.g.
January 27, 2013, 11:33:07 PM
Page created in 13.935 seconds with 12 queries.

January 27, 2013, 11:30:58 PM
Page created in 11.915 seconds with 14 queries.

But then I'm also getting some pages load that do not report being CPU bound like these following two examples...

January 27, 2013, 11:33:35 PM
Page created in 0.966 seconds with 24 queries.

January 27, 2013, 11:35:31 PM
Page created in 0.428 seconds with 12 queries.

... but they both actually took somewhere between one and two minutes to fully arrive on my desktop. Some are obviously taking a lot of time to make the initial connection, and some mostly load but take 30s or so to finish off the last few icons or pics. etc.. (Throughput to the rest of the web from here in general is perfectly normal.)

[Moraline]

<snip>
... but they both actually took somewhere between one and two minutes to fully arrive on my desktop. Some are obviously taking a lot of time to make the initial connection, and some mostly load but take 30s or so to finish off the last few icons or pics. etc.. (Throughput to the rest of the web from here in general is perfectly normal.)

That's the same here with me. It happens when I click on any/every section of the forums. This post took several minutes to load.

[Remy]

This isn't extreme slowness now..it's an inability to get here at all.  Usually when it's slow, the site is jsut slow, but today, at 15.43 London time, it took me over 3 mintues to finally access the site, as chrome timed out with an ''Oops, google chrome was unable to contact ....'' And it happened for the sister site W.E.T also.

[Koren]

I just got this after trying to load a topic which is strange because everything else loaded fine but this one topic appears to be slower then the rest of the site the last few days, or maybe its just I always have that page loading when it slows down

February 06, 2013, 07:53:04 AM
Page created in 48.99 seconds with 26 queries.

The link if you need it

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=128493.3925

Sorry if im gate crashing but I just knew this thread was here and thought this might help when Veks gets back

[Caeli]

February 05, 2013, 01:50:16 PM
Page created in 0.2 seconds with 18 queries.

It seems to load okay for me... :-\ I know Vekseid has mentioned that we're really in need of a new server.

[Koren]

Oh, I should have mentioned that I am on timezone GST+10 as well hence why my timestamp seem so out. I know you probably have ways of finding that out but yeah :)

And yeah, sometimes it does, its just strange that that one thread was slow when id opened up a couple at once, and it wasnt the first time it happened with that thread either which is the only reason I mentioned it. If it was a one time thing I wouldnt have bothered :)

[LunarSage]

February 06, 2013, 04:53:13 PM

Page created in 2.693 seconds with 19 queries.

That page took about 2 or 3 minutes to load.   :-(

[Autumn Sativus]

Page created in 24.66 seconds with 15 queries. 4:54:49PM

Page created in 3.567 seconds with 9 queries. 4:56:49PM

Times in EST. Been really slow the past little while.

[Caitlin]

Same problem here. :(

[diamonedsky]

Been looking at the times ever since this thread started, but this was the only one that kinda blew my mind.

February 06, 2013, 05:55:06 PM
Page created in 102.306 seconds with 19 queries.

[Naiah]

Page created in 27.946 seconds with 20 queries.

February 09, 2013, 04:58:12 PM



Page created in 43.096 seconds with 28 queries.
February 09, 2013, 08:02:59 PM


Page created in 57.514 seconds with 28 queries.
February 09, 2013, 11:56:09 PM

[LunarSage]

Page created in 9.165 seconds with 16 queries.
February 09, 2013, 05:46:34 PM

[Dovel]

Page created in 19.378 seconds with 16 queries.
February 09, 2013, 6:11 PM

[Vekseid]

So yeah.

There's nothing more I can do with the hardware we have. Can ask staff on Elliquiy and Blue Moon to break up threads over 10k posts, and for people in general to use threads instead of pms where willing, but beyond this, we need new hardware. The bottleneck isn't even RAM anymore. We're actually hitting thread limits.

[Naiah]

So this is why E just crashed? And why its REALLY slow right now?

Would deleting old game threads perhaps help? Or set up an archive for threads that havent been posted in for over a year?

[Lorelei Adelaide]

I am glad it wasn't just me that was experiencing this slowness!

[Vekseid]

I rebooted the server to clear up memory fragmentation, which seems to have helped somewhat, but it doesn't prevent actual lockups.

The server doesn't load things that aren't used. There's no benefit to archiving/deleting threads that isn't gained by simply splitting the large ones that people occasionally browse, and by asking people to stay out of them until they are split.

[Naiah]

We barely have any 10k+ threads anymore, does the site really crash if 1 or 2 look into the old locked ones?

[Vekseid]

The way it works is - the server is capable of actively processing 16 things at once. It may seem to do more, because what happens is threads 10,000-10,015 will get CPU time for a few milliseconds, then threads 10,016-10,031 will get time (although most threads on the server are 'asleep' at any given moment, so numbers won't be sequential, and some things have higher priority than others).

Private messages aside (far worse on Blue Moon than on Elliquiy, but both systems are pretty bad), the schema for handling threads is actually fairly decent, and I've done a lot of work making sure that they are fairly well optimized on both Blue Moon and Elliquiy proper. All I had to do was fix some indexes for messages.

So what happens is, when you make a post, it stores that post alongside a few indexes - basically directory lookups, like a phone book.
- The topic/thread ID you see in the URL bar is the most obvious one
- The post time is another important one (stored in seconds since 1970).
- Your user id is yet another important one. Had to spend some time specifically fixing 'view this user's posts' because yes it gets hairy.
- The post ID itself.

Looking at an index will return the data set associated with the value specified.
- Obviously, looking at a single second in time isn't going to return a lot of posts. Rarely more than the number returned by looking at a specific post ID.
- This leaves the data sets returned by users (people looking through post histories) and large threads.

The smaller this index gets pulled, sorted, and its data sent, the faster it is no longer taking up an thread. The sooner it isn't taking up a thread, the better off we are.

Right now, thread thrashing is being caused by the following events, in order of seriousness
1) Blue Moon's private messaging system. By far the worst offender.
2) Elliquiy's large threads. Occasionally bad enough that the site locks up without Blue Moon's help.
3) Elliquiy's PM system.
4) Blue Moon's large threads
5) Post histories of very active users.

Once more than sixteen of these get queued at once, if their results are not fully in the memory pool, the server goes kaput.

I've known this was occasionally an issue for awhile, actually, and altogether it threw a fairly nasty wrench into my new CMS plans because I didn't properly account for the size and scope of some people's conversations in my database schema. How do you cleanly solve this without adding more hardware? It's not an easy problem.

In any case it has reached a point where it's simply become untenable for us to remain with our current configuration. We need a new home.

[Koren]

I dont know if it works this way so sorry if this is a stupid question but would cleaning out inboxs help with that somewhat at all?

[Blitzy]

Would it be of any help to stop some of the forum games for a little while? And for us to stop posting pictures, etc, in the Finders and Seekers threads?

[Naiah]

Maybe lock threads at 5000, instead of letting them run all the way to 10k?

[Lord Drake]

As far as I understand from what Veks said, one of the big issues is people going through other people (or maybe their own) post histories. We are starting to have carnitas around here and I understand that a single person's post history is a HELLUVA thread.

I don't know if there is a way to solve this. Maybe having post histories show only the last month or two of activity?

[Naiah]

From what I understand, E needs a new home, so what would that cost and how do we go about financing it?

[Cecilia]

From what I understand, E needs a new home, so what would that cost and how do we go about financing it?

A new server is the best solution.  One way to help with financing E in general is, for anyone with the ability to, to subscribe and ask their friends to do the same.  We've had some fundraising efforts in the past--like the recent volunteer auction, and there are some other things people are trying to figure out as well.  We're willing to consider all sorts of fundraising activities, so if you have an idea pm a staff member or take a look at this thread and add your ideas.

[Vekseid]

Maybe lock threads at 5000, instead of letting them run all the way to 10k?

Every thread the server is thrashing on has been one of the ~30k ones.

Going from 30k to 10k gives a performance increase of roughly an order of magnitude (in terms of how long it takes the server to finish that part of that request), so I think that's good enough for now.

I dont know if it works this way so sorry if this is a stupid question but would cleaning out inboxs help with that somewhat at all?

In order for a message to be deleted, it must be deleted by both the sender and all of its recipients.

I'm really loathe to ask people to delete stuff in general, or to cease communication. Just is yucky.

[Izu]

And how much would a new server cost us? I mean... in the last auction there were still so many volunteers that we had people for about 4-5 auctions to be scheduled in the future. Maybe we can have those auctions sooner?

[Naiah]

Knowing what a new server would cost would help in figuring out what we need to do to get those funds.


This might sound wrong, but pleeease dont take it the wrong way..

But it sort of irks me that Bluemoon is sharing the server with us. I mean people here on E are donating money to help maintain this server we have now and it seems a bit unfair that a whole other site can get a free ride off of what we donate here. Isnt it possible to split the two? Set Bluemoon up on something else?

[Saerrael]

Does post history load in one go? If it does, is it possible to cut the loading into parts?
Just a thought that wandered my mind.

[Vekseid]

Knowing what a new server would cost would help in figuring out what we need to do to get those funds.


This might sound wrong, but pleeease dont take it the wrong way..

But it sort of irks me that Bluemoon is sharing the server with us. I mean people here on E are donating money to help maintain this server we have now and it seems a bit unfair that a whole other site can get a free ride off of what we donate here. Isnt it possible to split the two? Set Bluemoon up on something else?

Could easily drop $10k on a 1u server. More realistically though, I'm looking at $6-8k. I did have some money saved up but the hospital trip ate into that, and I still don't have the bill for the Ambulance or ER admission yet. The hospital stay was fortunately less than I feared.

Getting a separate server pair for Blue Moon might be possible... but it's also another $300/month to colocate, on top of the cost of buying a second server with only slightly lower specs. With a 16-core machine, splitting the databases between two SSDs would be prudent anyhow. That way Blue Moon and other sites shouldn't be able to impact Elliquiy much.

In any case, I'd certainly bring Blue Moon in on fundraising for a new server. They are a quarter of the server's load, after all, and some members do make donations (though they don't have any subscribers).

Does post history load in one go? If it does, is it possible to cut the loading into parts?
Just a thought that wandered my mind.

Sort of, and not as-is, really. For the new software I've been thinking of what amounts to an auto-'archival' system, which would be fairly transparent to the user, and it would work a bit like that, only loading up to four thousand or so paragraphs at a time.

[Naiah]

With the donations we make here on E, dont we have enough to have our own server then? Let each site fund their own?

[Nessy]

I thought Vek paid for them both which means it would be the same pot of money even if you allocated the funds separately.

[Naiah]

I meant more so we dont share a server, seeing as BM can actually make this site crash and be uber slow.

[Kye]

I believe that at least part of the problem with having different servers is the cost.  My understanding is that the monthly costs are covered by donations and subscriptions across both sites, and there isn't all that much left over if anything at the end of the month. Two separate servers would cost more per month, not just up front. Veks can of course correct me if I'm wrong, this is just my educated guess.

[Naiah]

My understanding is that there are more than just E and BM and that E gathers most of the donations? I do think that if we gather the most, then we do deserve not to suffer thanks to too many PMs on other sites going out (as an example)

[Trieste]

E gathers the most donations because E is the largest site on the server. However, E is not completely self-sufficient.

Individually, each forum probably couldn't afford the server space they all require.

Together, they can afford all of the server space - mostly.

There are slowdowns like this and pushes for fundraising each and every time we've needed an upgrade.

[Nessy]

E gathers the most donations because E is the largest site on the server. However, E is not completely self-sufficient.

Individually, each forum probably couldn't afford the server space they all require.

Together, they can afford all of the server space - mostly.

There are slowdowns like this and pushes for fundraising each and every time we've needed an upgrade.

I am curious, i feel like we had a server update within the last couple of years, but it was only a partial right. This time the idea being suggested might be a new build right?

[Oniya]

Out of curiosity, would this behavior be triggered by spiders and bots visiting those threads as well?  Most of the huge ones that are left (at least the current top 10) are old ShoutBox archives.

[Vekseid]

Out of curiosity, would this behavior be triggered by spiders and bots visiting those threads as well?  Most of the huge ones that are left (at least the current top 10) are old ShoutBox archives.

Yes.

Thanks for starting on breaking them up - almost done it looks like : )

My understanding is that there are more than just E and BM and that E gathers most of the donations? I do think that if we gather the most, then we do deserve not to suffer thanks to too many PMs on other sites going out (as an example)

The fact that one site can interfere with others on this server has only been true for the past few months. It's not a 'normal' situation and additional servers are a major expense - not just in terms of financial outlay and upkeep but also my own time.

[LunarSage]

Is this problem going to come to a head before May or June?  I may well be able to offer assistance at that point.

[Oniya]

Yes.

Thanks for starting on breaking them up - almost done it looks like : )

Done with the 30Ks, taking out the 20K+ threads for extra security.

[Aadreal]

I don't want to derail but I do want to say thank you.  It's easy to bitch and complain when things aren't going the way we'd like or rinning slow.  But I want to say thank you to Veks and the Staff for all they do.  E is a behemoth and just the amount of work it takes to keep this site running boggles my mind.  So again, thank you.

[Trieste]

I don't want to derail but I do want to say thank you.  It's easy to bitch and complain when things aren't going the way we'd like or rinning slow.  But I want to say thank you to Veks and the Staff for all they do.  E is a behemoth and just the amount of work it takes to keep this site running boggles my mind.  So again, thank you.

+1

Hey, can the new CMS have a 'like' button? Or thumbsup or something?  ::)

[Chelemar]

+2

Thanks everyone! <3

[Cecilia]

+1

Hey, can the new CMS have a 'like' button? Or thumbsup or something?  ::)

Went looking for the like button for this.  Doh!

[Caeli]

Seeing some slowness right now - did you still want us to report these?

February 24, 2013, 06:54:22 PM
Page created in 8.41 seconds with 8 queries.

February 24, 2013, 06:54:59 PM
Page created in 64.857 seconds with 17 queries.

[Scott]

Why don't you just charge a membership? E alone has roughly 8787 ish members. Hit everybody for 5 bucks a year, that will end up with 43,935 even if we lose 40% of membership because of the fee that will still give a solid 26k a year for growth and operating costs. If BM's numbers are similar I'm averaging they are half as big as E, it would still be a solid 36K a year. Want more, double the fee, if you cant pull 10 bucks a year for access you might need to question your life choices.

It would also serve as an age verification too, because the banks don't give debit cards to minors do they? So it would lighten staff load. 10 a year isn't too much I don't think.

[Autumn Sativus]

While I personally wouldn't mind paying $10 a year or more (I often do with donations when I can) the reality is that many of the members, hell even any number of the staff and mentors, would not be here if they had to pay a membership fee. Money is that tight for many of us. $10 (even $1 or counting pennies) can be the difference between having E or having a roof over your head or food in your mouth. It would be extremely sad to lose a large chunk of members because they simply can't afford it, not because they wouldn't be willing to pay.

[LunarSage]

Even if I -could- afford that, I know a lot of people would find the idea that they -have- to pay for E to be enough to make them leave.  The last thing we want to do is alienate a good number of our members.  If I want to donate, I would prefer that it be because I chose to do so. 

[Silver]

Why don't you just charge a membership? E alone has roughly 8787 ish members. Hit everybody for 5 bucks a year, that will end up with 43,935 even if we lose 40% of membership because of the fee that will still give a solid 26k a year for growth and operating costs. If BM's numbers are similar I'm averaging they are half as big as E, it would still be a solid 36K a year. Want more, double the fee, if you cant pull 10 bucks a year for access you might need to question your life choices.

It would also serve as an age verification too, because the banks don't give debit cards to minors do they? So it would lighten staff load. 10 a year isn't too much I don't think.

I understand your point of view but I must echo Saffron and LunarSage here.

Some people can't afford to give that much money, currently I am not giving anymore money until I get my tax refund. Elliquiy is an outlet for many people, a place to come and feel beyond welcomed; not judged, not having to think about the outside world for a bit of time. We all love to read and write and there should be no charge to do such a thing, just because of the fact that everyone found a place that they can write with other people with like mindedness.

People shouldn't be made to feel, be forced to give money when it's not something they wish to do of their own freewill. That will only create resentment of the worst kind, perhaps create some type of schism; I'm not saying it would happen but what if it did. We might end up with two sites, free and paid. What if you couldn't be on both, what if you were forced to pick one or the other....That would just open up a whole can of worms. Anyways...I rambled, I apologize.

[Scott]

It's 5 bucks a year, it's a tinge above a penny a day...

If a person is running that tight, so that .013 cents a day means the difference between food in their mouths a roof over their heads and they are still sitting around talking dirty on the internet, or exploring literary creativity, or whatever they want to call it... maybe things need to be re-thought in their own lives?

I in no way mean to sound elitist, or like an ass, or anything... but....    .013 cents?   yanno?   

[Kye]

Just because it doesn't seem like a lot to you, doesn't mean it wouldn't to someone else.  Even someone who is barely scraping by deserves some enjoyment in their lives, and if they find that by writing or socializing on Elliquiy we are more than happy to have them here.  Veks has said before that he doesn't want to make Elliquiy a pay site, and I have to agree with him. It would change the feeling of the site too much for my tastes, and I donate on a semi-regular basis.

[Silver]

It's 5 bucks a year, it's a tinge above a penny a day...

If a person is running that tight, so that .013 cents a day means the difference between food in their mouths a roof over their heads and they are still sitting around talking dirty on the internet, or exploring literary creativity, or whatever they want to call it... maybe things need to be re-thought in their own lives?

I in no way mean to sound elitist, or like an ass, or anything... but....    .013 cents?   yanno?   

Can I point out that quite a few of the members here don't actively have stories, they talk to others have debates about politics and other things. So that's a bit of a harsh judgement to give. You don't know what they are going through nor do you know their current status. Maybe this is the place that is keeping them grounded, the place that they know that they can come when everything else is falling apart around them. I sure know that it's been that way for me a few times over all the years that I've been here.

[Autumn Sativus]

Yep, I know. And yep, there are people that would sink.

Regardless, Vekseid has always held a very firm stance to not donate if you can't afford it and I highly doubt that an enforced fee would ever be applied. It's a valid thought, but there really are that many people who live on the edge in this world. Denying someone access because they've been dealt a 'just barely afloat' hand in life seems cruel to me.

[Trieste]

It would depend on the time of year for me. If my renewal came up right now, I would not be able to pay it. We did our taxes for 2012 and I discovered that we ended up several thousand dollars under the poverty line.

We are not even the worst off on Elliquiy. We actually have a lot to be grateful for.

But if E became a paid-only site, even for $5 per member per year, I would have to wait a few months before I could pay it, and so would Mr. Trieste.

So I'm glad to donate when I can...

But I'm glad I'm not forced to.

[Scott]

Nothing's free... EVER. That's the way life works. Elliquiy being free is a noble idea, but it keeps getting bigger.. and obviously it's income doesn't match that.

Is it sustainable to operate like that?   

[Elina]

I don't join pay sites, generally, whether I can afford to or not.  And I contribute to this site in a lot of ways, I think.  I think E would lose way more than 40% of its membership.  Internationally, it can be hard to collect on US stuff, so there goes most of our foreign population.  Then there are those who can't/won't associate a credit card with an adult site.  And how about those who don't have a card or who won't Paypal or who... well, you get it.  Logistically, I think it would be a nightmare.  But even past that, it still comes down to this: the owner of the site doesn't want it to be a pay site for a lot of reasons, the above included, and so it isn't.  (Yes, I've asked him about it before, a long time ago.)

[Kye]

There are other ways to generate income that don't include mandatory fees for the members.  Some of those are being looked into, some have been scratched off the list. 

We have the wonderful, supportive community that we do because we are inclusive, and part of that is because there isn't a membership fee.  Charging for access to the site wouldn't just drive away the members who couldn't pay, but drive away a large percentage of future members as well. 

[Caeli]

Elliquiy is so much more than "talking dirty on the internet, or exploring literary creativity, or whatever". I don't know what Elliquiy has given you, but Elliquiy has given a lot to me. Being a member here allowed me to learn more about sexuality, to expand my writing skills, to meet a lot of amazing and erudite individuals. If it weren't for Elliquiy, I don't think I'd have had the confidence to take the first step into student leadership in my campus student organizations when I was in college - and I won't expand on how that experience changed my life.

But I wouldn't have been able to pay or donate to Elliquiy unless I had a job, and I did not always have a job.

I think we can get a lot more financial support, freely given and happily so, than we would as a pay site. We have a fantastic community here and such a giving memberbase; I believe that a large part of our growth comes from our inclusiveness.

[Scott]

Kinda feeling misquoted, so here's the whole sentence:

If a person is running that tight, so that .013 cents a day means the difference between food in their mouths a roof over their heads and they are still sitting around talking dirty on the internet, or exploring literary creativity, or whatever they want to call it... maybe things need to be re-thought in their own lives?   

Yeah I said that, I'll stand behind it, hate me for it, feel free. 

[Kye]

No one said they hated you for it, Scott. People are giving their opinions of the idea. Some will agree and some will disagree, it's human nature.  You are more than welcome to your opinion and I don't question your right to hold that opinion.  It's valid, and it would likely help monetarily, but in my opinion the cost of doing so would be to high in other ways.   

[Trieste]

What I gather from that is "Stop writing, work harder". That's... kind of ignorant. It speaks to a fundamental misunderstanding as to the situation that many people are in. I mean, I could probably work harder... I'm not quite spending 26 hours a day between work and school... I could, I dunno, not sleep.

Saying "just work harder!" really, really hurts. You have said a hurtful thing, and while I don't hate you for it, I'm sad that you think that way. It makes me really, deeply sad.

[Silver]

Kinda feeling misquoted, so here's the whole sentence:

Yeah I said that, I'll stand behind it, hate me for it, feel free.

I never once stated that I hated you for your statement, nor disliked you either.

I feel that it came across as a bit harsh and overly cold. I respect that you have a point of view but it's not one that I personally share in regards to the topic at hand.

[Naiah]

I had made up my mind to stay out of this thread after the comment about how its so easy to be bitchy and complain.

But you know what? I wasn't being bitchy and complaining when I asked my questions or raised my concerns. I do value all that Veks does for us, I do value this site. I wouldn't have donated or signed up for a subscription if I didn't. Just because someone asks some questions, doesn't make them a complainer. I genuinely want to help keep this site going and the only way to find out how to, is to ask.

But this is a literary site where we all browse several threads and spend countless hours writing posts and there is nothing more frustrating when accessing these threads at times take up to 5 mins just to load.

I don't think it makes me a bitchy complainer when I say that BM bogging us down with their PMs is unfair. We do pay for most of this server and I do think its unfair other sites are crashing the server or causing loading problems.

I understand where Scott is coming from, as the only real solution to this problem is getting a really expensive server (as removing the other sites off this server isn't an option unfortunately).
We do have to face the facts, it is going to take money to keep the loading times to something acceptable, as I dare say people will also start leaving if this slow loading gets worse. So I do see Scott's idea as something that could be done, because can we honestly gather 6-7 thousand dollars together any time soon? Last auction got us 1 thousand and it was said several months would have to pass before another could be made, so that would then take us over a year, perhaps 2 before we got 7 thousand, wouldn't it?

I love this site, but it needs a new server and how else can we raise enough money to get it? Subscriptions and donations sure aren't getting us there. Either way people will likely leave :(

[Caeli]

If a person is running that tight, Elliquiy can be the difference between having a support system and having some sanity in their lives, and feeling so run down that you can't see how you can keep living this way.

Like I said earlier: Elliquiy is much more than just a place to write. Even if you're running a negative income or just barely making it by- and those of us who are going to college, etc., who aren't working full-time or who may be paying back debts, mortgages, etc., are - telling us to work harder and to not find a place to rest, or a place where we can find peace or get advice, is... simplistic.

Sometimes, that supportive community means a lot more than you can quantify with dollar amounts.

[Silver]

If a person is running that tight, Elliquiy can be the difference between having a support system and having some sanity in their lives, and feeling so run down that you can't see how you can keep living this way.

Like I said earlier: Elliquiy is much more than just a place to write. Even if you're running a negative income or just barely making it by- and those of us who are going to college, etc., who aren't working full-time or who may be paying back debts, mortgages, etc., are - telling us to work harder and to not find a place to rest, or a place where we can find peace or get advice, is... simplistic.

Sometimes, that supportive community means a lot more than you can quantify with dollar amounts.

+1

You said that much better than how I was trying too.

[Trieste]

I love this site, but it needs a new server and how else can we raise enough money to get it? Subscriptions and donations sure aren't getting us there. Either way people will likely leave :(

Hi Naiah. :) I don't think you are being bitchy. I think that there is no limit on donations as it stands, and if various users can get together and donate that money, that would probably work much better than trying to get blood from a stone in the form of paid membership.

[Naiah]

Heya Trieste :) Thanks! ;)

I agree that it would be great if the donations could cover the cost (server and monthly cost) but I do think that might be wishful thinking. Last we had a big collection, we "only" got 1 thousand, thats a far way off of the 6-7 we need and thats not including the monthly costs. I would also prefer this site to be free, but how else can we get enough money?

[Trieste]

Heya Trieste :) Thanks! ;)

I agree that it would be great if the donations could cover the cost (server and monthly cost) but I do think that might be wishful thinking. Last we had a big collection, we "only" got 1 thousand, thats a far way off of the 6-7 we need and thats not including the monthly costs. I would also prefer this site to be free, but how else can we get enough money?

I completely understand the reasoning. What I am disagreeing with (and I don't mean to be confrontational, so I hope I'm not coming across this way) is that there is extra or more money sort of laying around. I think that people are really trying hard to contribute, members know we need an upgrade, and members have always been very generous in the past when things are needed. I think that the money hasn't come in because it simply is not there.

Does that make some sense? I'm not trying to talk in circles.

[Caeli]

Heya Trieste :) Thanks! ;)

I agree that it would be great if the donations could cover the cost (server and monthly cost) but I do think that might be wishful thinking. Last we had a big collection, we "only" got 1 thousand, thats a far way off of the 6-7 we need and thats not including the monthly costs. I would also prefer this site to be free, but how else can we get enough money?

I don't think it sounds bitchy at all, and you have valid concerns about our server and where our money is going, and who else is on the server that Elliquiy donations also support. As (what I'm assuming) a subscriber yourself, I'd understand why it might feel frustrating from your point of view.

I still don't think "forcing" members to pay for access would be the solution, though; it's a move that would be bound to alienate and exclude people for any number of reasons, from not being able to afford it, to not having a valid way of donating, to even simply not wanting to pay or donate (and I genuinely do not feel that not wanting to pay for access makes a member any less, or any less deserving, as a member). In the past, the memberbase has responded very well and very generously when a call is put out for financial support and donations. I really do think that it's a very, very tough economy, and that for some people who may want to donate (or even who have donated in the past), it is simply not possible to do so.

Oof... ninja'ed by Trieste.

[Scott]

I don't remember the members of elliquiy voting or even being asked if we wanted to take on BM, or any of the others onto the new server that Elliquiy bought. I just remember all of the sudden about 6 months after we bought the latest and greatest thing, it wasn't good enough anymore and we lost the SB because of "system limitations", and it's gone down hill ever since.

[Oniya]

Um, it's not like the old server is still there for Veks' other sites to be 'left behind' on.  Unless you were suggesting that Veks pay twice as much in server fees?

[Elina]

Just out of curiosity, how come BMR has their SB if we lost ours?  Last time I was on there, theirs was still up.  I've wondered that and not asked, but since it's been brought up...

>.>

I'm not trying to create trouble, I promise.  I really am just curious.

[Trieste]

Just out of curiosity, how come BMR has their SB if we lost ours?  Last time I was on there, theirs was still up.  I've wondered that and not asked, but since it's been brought up...

>.>

I'm not trying to create trouble, I promise.  I really am just curious.

When I asked about that, it was explained to me that it's because BMR doesn't necessarily have thousands of members displaying it all at once. >.>;

[Elina]

That makes sense.  If they lost theirs, would it make enough of a difference in the slowness issue to make a difference?  I know zilch about this stuff.

[Vekseid]

I don't remember the members of elliquiy voting or even being asked if we wanted to take on BM, or any of the others onto the new server that Elliquiy bought. I just remember all of the sudden about 6 months after we bought the latest and greatest thing, it wasn't good enough anymore and we lost the SB because of "system limitations", and it's gone down hill ever since.

Blue Moon in most circumstances never impacted Elliquiy. It's doing so now in a way that removing it would change little - and only for a very short time.

The shoutbox remains on Blue Moon, but is absent from Elliquiy, because while Blue Moon's PM schema is fucking moronic, (Elliquiy's is somewhat better, just 'quite stupid'), its integration mechanic is far more lightweight than Elliquiy's. SMF loads the entire kitchen sink on integration, and the developers declared that this was necessary for some reason. Similar to my comments about MyBB's PM schema - though unlike SMF where I made a great deal of progress, did not get anywhere with MyBB. Ah well. The shoutbox on Blue Moon is having zero impact, despite it being responsible for more php and database requests than everything else on the server combined.

That's how a well-oiled system works.

In any case, the long loading times are because it needs to read data from the disk. Current host wants $2,700/month to max out this server's RAM, which would give us two years or so, if we don't grow. Fuck that noise. Buying our own server for $8k, could get a server to max out at half a terabyte of RAM (though maybe only 32 or 64 gigs to start) - for a flat cost, and maybe another $20/month for another half-amp. We'd own the server then, though, which would greatly expand our options when it came to getting a new server for any reason. This makes this a far more 'permanent' solution than our current situation, though obviously not indefinite. Longer than the three years we're trying to eek out of this thing, at least.

A 16-core system could handle the shoutbox on E for a short time, but that would unfortunately still be temporary. The only permanent fix to many woes is new software. It would take a crazy amount of money to fix that. (Edit: As in, make the shoutbox work on SMF nigh-indefinitely).

Um, it's not like the old server is still there for Veks' other sites to be 'left behind' on.  Unless you were suggesting that Veks pay twice as much in server fees?

A new server would return us to the status quo we had two years ago, where sites never impacted each other. Elliquiy would regularly crash under the shoutbox load while Blue Moon ran fine. Same was true during the DDoS.

Plus, the server I'm looking at has eight drive bays. Can give Elliquiy its own SSD, even.

I realize it rustles people, but in case it isn't clear

Blue Moon is not the source of our troubles. The source of our troubles is that stuff occasionally gets loaded from disk, rather than sitting in RAM, because we don't have enough and our host wants to charge 1/3rd the price of a top of the line 1u server every fucking month to buy us a rather short amount of time. Blue Moon -exacerbates- this problem, but this isn't something that's going to come back any time soon on a new machine, occasional fundraisers for RAM at reasonable prices (a few $k for a half terabyte) excepted.

Elliquiy loses nothing from hosting Blue Moon in most situations, and gains a great deal. I don't want or like bad feelings between the two sites. They serve different niches, and give each other reinforcement.

[Autumn Sativus]

Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining this all, Vekseid. It's interesting information and makes more sense laid out like this.

My question is how much money would be required to resolve the issue temporarily while the large amount of funding is being amassed for the new server? Is there a smaller bar we could work up toward to purchase more of something that would help us see less loading problems for the time until we can get a new server?

[Vekseid]

Just out of curiosity, how come BMR has their SB if we lost ours?  Last time I was on there, theirs was still up.  I've wondered that and not asked, but since it's been brought up...

>.>

I'm not trying to create trouble, I promise.  I really am just curious.

To gets into more detail

MyBB (what BMR runs) and SMF (what E here runs) each provide a variety of hooks to allow other software to integrate with them. On E, this is how the blogs, new ons/offs, etc. work (though not the Wiki).

SMF uses a kitchen sink approach. Most notably, it loads the entire damned theme. Every. Fucking. Load.

MyBB does not do this.

So what happened was, on Elliquiy, the shoutbox completely ate the entire CPU, while Blue Moon barely even registers despite having a shoutbox load comparable to where E was at when I had to bring it down. Blue Moon uses so little CPU that while Elliquiy dominates it, even saturates occasionally, it still functions just fine. MyBB is very well-written in terms of CPU usage.

What's wrong with MyBB's PM system is more complex, but suffice to say it stores a single private message potentially many, many times, and does some completely idiotic queries - like matching the entire contents of a pm just to fucking quote.

In most typical, expected usages of either system, neither of these is really a problem. Most hooks are not hundreds of AJAX requests per second (thus, the blogs and ons/offs still work), MyBB's PMs can usually all be loaded completely into RAM (thus queries don't spend forever trying to work). Good system design will take us much further, however, and it is really my end-goal.

New software will also let me give something to people who donate (and of course, past donors will get credit according to what they've donated), while still allowing people to make use of this site for free.

[Vekseid]

Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining this all, Vekseid. It's interesting information and makes more sense laid out like this.

My question is how much money would be required to resolve the issue temporarily while the large amount of funding is being amassed for the new server? Is there a smaller bar we could work up toward to purchase more of something that would help us see less loading problems for the time until we can get a new server?

Blue Moon has agreed to implement PM caps.

And sort of, but it's just highway robbery paying these sorts of prices for RAM. I'd much rather raise a small amount, put it all on credit card and recoup later, or something.

[Autumn Sativus]

Is it possible to implement a donation bar for the server funding so that users can see it? I'm sure that donations would be made for the cause but I'm also sure that a lot of users (who may be wiling to donate) aren't even aware that there's a need.

[Elina]

To gets into more detail

MyBB (what BMR runs) and SMF (what E here runs) each provide a variety of hooks to allow other software to integrate with them. On E, this is how the blogs, new ons/offs, etc. work (though not the Wiki).

SMF uses a kitchen sink approach. Most notably, it loads the entire damned theme. Every. Fucking. Load.

MyBB does not do this.

So what happened was, on Elliquiy, the shoutbox completely ate the entire CPU, while Blue Moon barely even registers despite having a shoutbox load comparable to where E was at when I had to bring it down. Blue Moon uses so little CPU that while Elliquiy dominates it, even saturates occasionally, it still functions just fine. MyBB is very well-written in terms of CPU usage.

What's wrong with MyBB's PM system is more complex, but suffice to say it stores a single private message potentially many, many times, and does some completely idiotic queries - like matching the entire contents of a pm just to fucking quote.

In most typical, expected usages of either system, neither of these is really a problem. Most hooks are not hundreds of AJAX requests per second (thus, the blogs and ons/offs still work), MyBB's PMs can usually all be loaded completely into RAM (thus queries don't spend forever trying to work). Good system design will take us much further, however, and it is really my end-goal.

New software will also let me give something to people who donate (and of course, past donors will get credit according to what they've donated), while still allowing people to make use of this site for free.

Thank you for explaining.  I appreciate it.

[Cycle]

Maybe this is the place that is keeping them grounded, the place that they know that they can come when everything else is falling apart around them.

If a person is running that tight, Elliquiy can be the difference between having a support system and having some sanity in their lives, and feeling so run down that you can't see how you can keep living this way.

These two comments.  They describe something I saw in action today.  There was a new member who posted something about their current life situation.  It was a wrenching tale.  This member didn't even know why they wrote the post.  Within a span of a few hours, several long time E members and Staff responded with words of encouragement.  These responders couldn't have known that person well.  And each obviously had other demands on their time (for RL, if not for E).  Still, they all reached out to help. 

To see this happen.  That says a tremendous amount about this place.

Moreover, given what the OP wrote, well, I doubted that they could have accessed E if they had to pay even $5.  So in this one case, the free access helped someone.

Is it possible to implement a donation bar for the server funding so that users can see it? I'm sure that donations would be made for the cause but I'm also sure that a lot of users (who may be wiling to donate) aren't even aware that there's a need.

I think this would actually be very helpful.  I only stumbled on what E was seeking, in terms of a target, by wandering around...

[Remy]

Did we just have a complete outage?  For about 3 or 4 minutes. Its 9.10 in the morning now London time.  Seems sorted now though.

[Izu]

Yep, had the same problem, about the same time.

I got Error 103.

[Falstaff]

Is it possible to implement a donation bar for the server funding so that users can see it? I'm sure that donations would be made for the cause but I'm also sure that a lot of users (who may be wiling to donate) aren't even aware that there's a need.

Hello...just wanted to stop by as a friend here (waves to Naiah) referred me to this thread...I didn't realize we needed a new server to solve some of these problems.  With all the people on E, we should be able to raise the funds...yes I know the times are tough and not everyone is able to help.  But there are some of us that are willing.

I like this idea from Saffron...let's put up a donation bar, specifically for this purchase.  This will bring awareness for all to see.  I was getting ready to make a donation anyways, but now I wonder if I should make a smaller monthly donation or just send in a larger lump sum towards this purchase.

I am willing to put some money up right now, but would like to know the best avenue for these funds.

Any guidance would be appreciated.  I could start off with a $ 300 donation right now for the server...or start putting some money in each month...which is better for E?

Thanks for any advise.

Fals

[Autumn Sativus]

I think only Veks can confirm which would be more beneficial in this situation, but I personally prefer to wait until I have a larger sum as there are less fees associated with a single donation than many.