I Was With You Right Up Until That Last Bit

[Pointless Digression]

[Martee]

That's beautiful.  Classic, even.  I've been so well behaved about this whole debacle but I really would love that on a poster.

The pope... oy vey

Thanks!

[Xandria]

Oh, that is simply brilliant!  Thanks for posting!

[RubySlippers]

I have a big questions if Christians and Muslims are supposed to be so moral than why would they support God doing what is planned in the Book of Revelation to most of the human race?

[Noelle]

You're forgetting the part where God wants his followers to persuade people convert to (insert religion here, probably Abrahamic) and that those who refuse to do so are willfully spitting in the obvious face of God and deserve punishment for turning to sin instead of righteousness. Not hard, really.

[RubySlippers]

Why again is that necessary God is to have superior morals being uber-good, I read the OT and NT and Hitler and his worse SS guys had better morals to me. I don't mean to be offensive but God in the OT commanded or did lots of hideous things for no justified reason a modern person would consider rational. Surely God's sense of morals should exceed what happened in the trials of the war criminals from WW II when we knew some things were just WRONG.

Seems to me Christians, Jews and Muslim needs to remove their blinding rose colored glasses but that is just my opinion.

[Noelle]

If anyone is allowed into heaven/an otherwise peaceful afterlife regardless of whether or not they adhere to what is seen as God's word, it kind of destroys the incentive to believe and be apart of the exclusive club that is religion. I would hardly argue that the Bible is a great place to start if you like consistency and logic, but the OT God was kind of unapologetic about his wrath, and it was often justified in the eyes of believers as it was waged against idolators and the like. Invoking Godwin's Law is a little much if you ask me, and it's not as if there aren't plenty of religious people (including yourself) who aren't trying to make the best of what they've got. Religion on the whole, not just the strict Abrahamic kind, is prone to folly.

[Malefique]

If you look at the ten commandments, very few of them are actually to do with morality as such, as I recall (not being a big follower of the whole God thing: I'm a pagan, because if you have to have an imaginary friend you might as well have lots of them, and ones that are lots more fun than these monotheist heavies).  The first are more about 'don't you dare even look at another god, you bunch of tarts you'.  1: I am the Lord Your God.  You shall have no other gods before me.  2: You shall not make for yourself an idol (Simon Cowell take note). 3: Do not take the name of the Lord in vain.  4: Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy.  So pretty much the first half is all about the Almighty Me and how he wants to be worshipped, and not a moral code.  Then you get to things which show a bit of decency, though there are points you could dispute on - 5: Honour your father and your mother.  What if they're abusive?  Do you still have to honour them?   6: You shall not kill.  7: You shall not commit adultery.  What if your partner doesn't mind?  Who does it hurt if it doesn't hurt them?  8: You shall not steal.  9:  You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.  10: You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, ox, ass, house field, slaves of either sex (oh, yes, really).  And does your envying that neighbour hurt him?  Not really.  If you get up and steal his ox, ass, wife, slaves etc, yes it does.  But just wishing they were yours - is that intrinsically evil?  Organised religions have a lot more to do with imposing control on people than with actually moral judgements, I'm afraid, that's why so many of them are happy to countenance mass murder as long as those getting killed are The Others and not Our Gang.  Now excuse me, I have to go burn some chap to death in a big wicker cage.   ;D

[Oniya]

But even so, you have to remember that after the Ten Rules on a Rock bit, there was that chap who was nailed to a tree for suggesting that people be nice to each other for a change.   ;D

[TheGlyphstone]

  Now excuse me, I have to go burn some chap to death in a big wicker cage.   ;D

Will there be BEEEEEEEEEEES involved? :D

[Malefique]

But even so, you have to remember that after the Ten Rules on a Rock bit, there was that chap who was nailed to a tree for suggesting that people be nice to each other for a change.   

Yes, the trouble is that in his name they did a lot of burning and hanging and nailing of folks for saying 'actually, I'm quite happy with the old gods, thanks'.  Not saying that's what he wanted, but it still went back to Our Gang and The Others. 

Will there be BEEEEEEEEEEES involved?

[/color]

No!  No, a thousand times no!  Though after having watched that excuse for a movie I can't say I'd object if somebody did smother the makers in honey and drop them in a wasp's nest.  Wasps - bees are too nice.  Nope, I'll stick with Christopher Lee in a frock, thanks.  Summer is y-comen in, if it will just stop raining...

[elone]

10: You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, ox, ass, house field, slaves of either sex (oh, yes, really).  And does your envying that neighbour hurt him?  Not really.  If you get up and steal his ox, ass, wife, slaves etc, yes it does.  But just wishing they were yours - is that intrinsically evil?  Organised religions have a lot more to do with imposing control on people than with actually moral judgements, I'm afraid, that's why so many of them are happy to countenance mass murder as long as those getting killed are The Others and not Our Gang.  Now excuse me, I have to go burn some chap to death in a big wicker cage.   ;D

On number 10. That was so the rich would be protected from the poor. They wanted to keep the poor from wanting their stuff and taking it by force. "Oh yeah, let's make that a sin"

Religion has probably been responsible for more man made death and destruction than anything.

[Zakharra]

Religion has probably been responsible for more man made death and destruction than anything.

No. Evil and greedy people using religion has caused more death and destruction than anything. If there was no religion, then they'd use other means.

[Sabby]

10: You shall not covet your neighbour's wife, ox, ass, house field, slaves of either sex

But... but... its not my fault I find it alluring .___. its just the way God made me...

[Brandon]

Covet in this context means to obsess over Sabby.

The tenth commandment did not prevent others from trying to make their lives better with women, ox, etc. it only says dont covet someone elses stuff, there was never anything wrong getting your own stuff. Lots of interpretation fail there

[Oniya]

Actually, the interpretation 'fail' was ass!donkey vs. ass!buttocks.  And I'm pretty sure it was deliberate.  ;D

*sighs*  My neighbors' asses aren't worthy of coveting.

[Sabby]

Covet in this context means to obsess over Sabby.

The tenth commandment did not prevent others from trying to make their lives better with women, ox, etc. it only says dont covet someone elses stuff, there was never anything wrong getting your own stuff. Lots of interpretation fail there

No, I want that ass. I am totally coveting my neighbors in particular.

[HairyHeretic]

So, you're to blame for those floods a few months back then? ;)

[Sabby]

God made me with an in built love of mens asses, and then when I start loving mens asses he floods a continent... He is the Ultimate Troll.

[Oniya]

The more I look at it, the more I want to recaption the 'Don't forget the trumpet' picture with 'Look, I'm a moose'.

[/random]

[Brandon]

Please stop. I dont go out of my way to make your faiths into the butt end of every joke. I would appreciate the same in return

[Silk]

Please stop. I dont go out of my way to make your faiths into the butt end of every joke. I would appreciate the same in return

But... But religion s easy to make fun of... And generally needs to be taken down a few pegs anyway, sure its mostly appeals to ridicule, but there is much like with the OP poster, that does need to be ridiculed.

Also keep in mind that making fun of religion is a long balls away from what religion attempts to enforce on others on a daily basis. The problem is brandon, the more you go out of your way to take offense to things, the less people will ultimately care for it.(Example Islam and draw Muhammad day) Sorry its come to that but it does just seem to the the repeating trend, I don't mean offense but it is something that I think needs to be pointed out.

[Shjade]

I dont go out of my way to make your faiths into the butt end of every joke.

Statler: I don't blame him for that.
Waldorf: Why not?
Statler: I wouldn't want to deal with those religions' butts either!
DOHOHOHOHOHOHO!

[Brandon]

I dont go out of my way to find offense to anything, I come across things like this thread I read them and I just do take offense. As much as certain staff members or regular members claim you do not know how my brain, heart, or soul works.

Imagine if your beliefs were constantly being misunderstood or attacked, you go out of your way to try and educate people as best you can and in response you are treated like a complete idiot and your factual evidence is completely ignored. Thats where Im at right now and I hate it. I hate coming here all the time and feeling like there is an idealogical war going on against my beliefs. I hate feeling like each day as a part of the community it is a harder trial with so few moments of joy. I hate feeling like everyone gets their say but mine is largely ignored. I hate going out of my way to show proper respect to everyone elses points of view and beliefs but to recieve none in return. Most of all I hate being at odds with everyone else, people how are supposed to be my online friends and family. My frustration with P&R is not because all of this stuff happens, its because it happens all the time.

Congratulations, you may not get a better look into my current mental state then that

Edit: I forgot to thank everyone for ending that unfunny humor. I know you all dont mean to offend which is why I tried not to be harsh. I do appreciate you stopping after I asked you to

[Shjade]

Imagine if your beliefs were constantly being misunderstood or attacked, you go out of your way to try and educate people as best you can and in response you are treated like a complete idiot and your factual evidence is completely ignored.

If you're arguing with factual evidence, you're not arguing about beliefs.

If you're arguing about beliefs, chances are you don't have factual evidence. That's sorta the whole point of "faith." If you had facts, you wouldn't need to have faith - you could just point at your evidence and say, "That."

[Sabby]

Relax Brandon, for every Christian out there who has to watch their theology get stamped into the mud, there's an Atheist somewhere seeing The Church of Science defaced just as badly.

[Malefique]

Imagine if your beliefs were constantly being misunderstood or attacked, you go out of your way to try and educate people as best you can and in response you are treated like a complete idiot and your factual evidence is completely ignored. Thats where Im at right now and I hate it. I hate coming here all the time and feeling like there is an idealogical war going on against my beliefs. I hate feeling like each day as a part of the community it is a harder trial with so few moments of joy. I hate feeling like everyone gets their say but mine is largely ignored. I hate going out of my way to show proper respect to everyone elses points of view and beliefs but to recieve none in return. Most of all I hate being at odds with everyone else, people how are supposed to be my online friends and family. My frustration with P&R is not because all of this stuff happens, its because it happens all the time.

Sorry, Brandon, I'm not attacking your beliefs - I think it's great if a person has something that makes their life better for them, and even more so if it makes them behave in a better way to others.  But sadly, organised religion is used by a great many people to oppress and dominate others.  Zakharra is right, they would find something to use if religion did not give them a tool; look at the Nazis, for one.  But it does make it easier.  And I'm also sorry, but I am going to point out things that don't add up or make sense.  The whole coveting thing, for instance; I'm not misinterpreting it, however you translate and interpret it, it lays down that it is against God's law  to want something that belongs to another person.    Oh, and be grateful that you're a modern Christian, Brandon, and not a pagan any time up to the nineteenth century, because those people got killed for their faith (by Christians, Muslims and possibly Jews too), not argued with or ignored. 

[MasterMischief]

I dont go out of my way to find offense to anything, I come across things like this thread I read them and I just do take offense.

You honestly think you are going to find non-controversial threads in the Politics and Religion section?  Srsly?

Imagine if your beliefs were constantly being misunderstood or attacked...

They are.

...you go out of your way to try and educate people as best you can...

No, I don't.  And maybe that is cause of your frustration.

I hate coming here all the time and feeling like there is an idealogical war going on against my beliefs.

The obvious solution is to remove yourself from the situation.  Why must you educate anyone about anything?  How is your perspective any more valid than anyone else's?

I hate feeling like everyone gets their say but mine is largely ignored.

You may be able to claim a lot of things, but being ignored is not one of them.  There is a difference between convincing someone and being ignored.

I hate going out of my way to show proper respect to everyone elses points of view and beliefs but to recieve none in return.

By 'respect' do you mean silence?  You can not possibly respect everyone's beliefs.  So where do you draw the line?

Most of all I hate being at odds with everyone else, people how are supposed to be my online friends and family.

It sounds like you need to do some soul searching, Brandon.  Why do you think everyone is at odds with you?  If you are right and everyone else is wrong, why continue to associate with them?

I do not want you to leave Brandon.  I would not tell you what to do, that is not my place.  But I do think you need to ask yourself what you are really doing here.  What do you hope to accomplish, if anything?  If you hate coming into P&R every time, why do you keep coming back?  Why should religion in general and your beliefs in particular be off limits for humor?  If someone professed to believe in Zeus are Zeus jokes off limits then?  There would be no humor at all then because someone might get offended.

[Shjade]

By 'respect' do you mean silence?  You can not possibly respect everyone's beliefs.  So where do you draw the line?

Wait, what? Why not?

You don't have to agree with someone's ideas to respect them.

[Will]

If I believe that organized religion is a cancer on society, and that it would be better for everyone if it were removed as soon as possible, that belief is a fundamental attack on someone else's beliefs.  That makes mutual respect somewhat difficult, I think.  Just stating the reasons why I believe that would lead to responses of "oh no, not THAT again," and "you're not respecting my faith."

So I'm not sure respect is what's really being sought, here.  It's special treatment.  My beliefs step on your beliefs, so mine should be stifled.  Because your beliefs came from a holy book, they can't be questioned or dismissed or made light of.  Because I arrived at my beliefs instead through long consideration and personal experience, they get no special treatment.  I should keep quiet when I disagree, because the reasons for my beliefs are uncomfortable or tiresome or unfair to you.

So maybe you aren't the only one who's frustrated, Brandon.

[Silk]

Relax Brandon, for every Christian out there who has to watch their theology get stamped into the mud, there's an Atheist somewhere seeing The Church of Science defaced just as badly.

I'd love to see these examples, as well as your definition of religion if your equating science as one.

[Noelle]

I think he may be referring to science as it is sometimes treated by especially militant atheists...Many of them misuse it as something to beat other people with mercilessly and with as much zeal as Bible-beaters often do.

We'd all do well to remember that science is a method of understanding reality and not some kind of monolithic monster with a sinister motive to destroy religion.

[MasterMischief]

Intelligent Design was the first thing to pop into my mind, but I do not speak for Sabby.

[Sabby]

The Church of Science... a little term I picked up from The Dresden Files. Basically refers to science being the dominant power of the modern age, much like the Catholic Church was in the Dark Ages, and how the similar the two are. Like Noelle said, Militant Athiests flog their own creed as hard as the Militant Christians do.

[Silk]

Oh yes that vicious Dark age science, with their burning at the steak of women, or the holy crusades for a peice of land they claim is theirs by holy mandate, or missionaries with a convert or die philisophy, or the outright attempt to keep education and learning of the populace to a minimum so they are easier to control. Yep that science is so much like dark age catholosism its not even funny.

Also got to watch out for that militant creed of a single overlying mandate of "No belief in god" with their 10 commandments, while we pray to the great carl sagan, or the divine darwin. "Peace be upon him" After all we all know that it was Stalins athiesm and not his communism that caused the issue. Just as much as him having a moustache was the cause for genocide. While preaching that if you don't follow the holy mandate of science, you will suffer a never ending torture while being molested by the great evil science overlord.

But its ok, as long as you have the unwavering beleif in all things science has to say, regardless of the evidence or lack there of to support all theorys, you will go to the great science heaven, which the god science will allow you to bask in his glory, with darkwin being the effectual prophet of the great science, he died for our sins, so you best be thankful for that, you did nothing wrong but your a bad person who darwin saved you back in his age. You just have to accept the great divine darwin, and all of his beleifs and methodologies.

Not forgetting that the great science sends out their science priests to all corners of the word, to spread the great science, and since we are all sciences children, even though many have defects. you are "allowed" to persecute those people even though thats how the great science made them to be. And you get a free pass on all bigoted beleifs because of the great science preaches that these defects must be shunned and bullied. But since the great science has the divine mandate on morality, you get a free pass, after all, the great science said so. You can get all the benefits of the great science by donating 10% of your income to the nearest science church on the great thursday, so you can help fund the great gothic buildings and increase the powerbase of the great science, and be in the great sciences good books, but really, all you need to do is beleive in the great science really really hard, then you can prevent yourself from suffering endless anal molestation by the evil science lord.

Sorry for the rant but people claiming that religion and science are similar really irritates me.

[TheGlyphstone]

You've been watching South park, haven't you?

[Silk]

Can't say I have, should I have been?

[TheGlyphstone]

You just reminded me of one episode where...Stan? freezes himself and ends up in the far future, where the earth was ruled by two militant clans of atheists who fought in the name of Science and said daily prayers to Carl Sagan, killing each other in huge crusade-like wars to prove that their science was the true science.

[Starlequin]

Cartman. And dont forget the otters.

[TheGlyphstone]

Oh yeah, the otters. I honestly can't tell Stan, Cartman, and Kyle apart unless I'm looking at them, so forgive me that one.