Trump

Started by Vekseid, February 01, 2017, 02:59:22 AM

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Skynet

Quote from: Yvellakitsune on December 12, 2018, 06:40:08 PM
This is not the only administration who separated families.  This is the administration that got called out for it.  There was almost total silence when previous administrations did it.  Jorge Ramos I think is about the only one who really talked about it previously.

The "Obama/Democrats did it" in regards to family separation policies is a falsehood propagated by the Trump Administration and various far-right groups. I'll trust PolitiFact and the Washington Post over BreitBart, the_donald, etc.

https://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2018/nov/29/donald-trump/donald-trump-falsely-says-family-separations-were-/
 

QuoteAgain, this was based on people who already had deportation orders, before Trump even.  Yes, it can mean there will be future ones.  Most criminals do their crimes to "survive" or make their lives better, citizens too.  This article and the statements provided are about people who already have orders for deportation though. So apparently we don't trust judges from before Trump now too? 

This policy really only existed under Obama.  Bush initiated it in January of 2008, so it was only really only practiced under Obama.  It's not really some long standing staple of national policy, effectively one administration in practice.    That is not really long in the big picture.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and Obama and Bush are no longer President. His own immigration policies are far, far from perfect and in some cases illiberal. But President Trump is now in charge, he's spearheading immigration issues, and his own department has proven itself to be far from fair and just in regards to this, which is why many people are justifiably upset and worried over his actions.

QuoteRemember shoving a cop is assault. And that is ' a violent offense."

A far cry from "violent criminal aliens" which the Trump administration implies to be far worse than a mere shove. The language being used is intentional in this regard.

Personally speaking, I think that undocumented immigrant or no, if someone served the US in war, they should be allowed to be a US citizen* as they more or less entrusted their lives to the very government that will risk deporting them. They did a sacrifice few other Americans can or are willing to do. I don't trust a POTUS which attempted at first to do a Muslim travel ban and referred to it as such on Twitter to be a fair judge of character in this regard.

*barring particularly heinous crimes such as murder and rape.

Sara Nilsson

Also remember, becoming a US citizen isn't cheap. Goddess knows how many thousands of dollars I spent to become one. not everyone can afford to be a citizen. During the swearing in part the director asked if people wanted to say how long they waited to be a citizen and I thought my almost 10 years was long (due to the legal issues with papers being 2 days late and me being trans) and many said they waited 20+ years. One waited over 40. Simply because, they couldn't afford, or they didn't see the need. you get almost as many rights as a legal resident with a green card as you do a citizen, only things like voting etc. are barred. But now with Trump being in power some said, that is why. They where scared to be thrown out that is why.

So saying, well they waited this long to be a citizen isn't exactly honest in my opinion. You can love a country, live in it and not be a citizen as evident by the older man who waited 43 years. 43! And when he spoke of his love for america even I was going.. darmn you make america sound like a utopia with no flaws. That is how much his love was burning inside of him. And he waited that long. Honestly i wouldn't have pushed for citizenship so hard as I did if it wasn't for it just makes some paperwork easier and travel to and from the usa to sweden sooooo much easier. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

Tolvo

So while Cohen was sentenced to jail, something was going on.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/12/federal-prosecutors-give-national-enquirer-publisher-immunity.html

The National Enquirer publisher was given immunity by Federal Prosecutors. Who have the story on Trump paying hush money for affairs.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-impeachment-exclusive-idUSKBN1OB01N

Yesterday he defended paying hush money as a civil thing, and as not a big deal, as well as saying if he were impeached there would be a revolt.

Yvellakitsune

Quote from: Sara Nilsson on December 12, 2018, 07:20:17 PM
So saying, well they waited this long to be a citizen isn't exactly honest in my opinion. You can love a country, live in it and not be a citizen as evident by the older man who waited 43 years. 43! And when he spoke of his love for america even I was going.. darmn you make america sound like a utopia with no flaws. That is how much his love was burning inside of him. And he waited that long. Honestly i wouldn't have pushed for citizenship so hard as I did if it wasn't for it just makes some paperwork easier and travel to and from the usa to sweden sooooo much easier. Otherwise I wouldn't have bothered.

"Isn't exactly honest..."  I said they had their reasons, but they knew full well what the consequences were of their status.  And yes I know how much it costs because my family went through it too.  And while my family is/was in an immigration status, they obeyed the laws specifically because they know the consequences of not doing so. 

QuoteThe "Obama/Democrats did it" in regards to family separation policies is a falsehood propagated by the Trump Administration and various far-right groups. I'll trust PolitiFact and the Washington Post over BreitBart, the_donald, etc.

I didn't specifically say it was "Obama/Democrats", you did.  I said previous administrations.  Bush did it too.  Probably Clinton before him too. It was not the same policy as Bush or Obama (and I didn't claim it was), but your own source says it happened under them too in the second paragraph.  That falsehood in Trump's claim was that it was the same policy.  Trump was not the first to do it, which is what I said.  Trump was the first to be confronted about it.  Politifact also notes that the Obama administration did not keep count.  FactCheck.Org shows the same. 

Quote“We have not seen any data out of the current or prior administration on how many cases that were prosecuted were individuals who arrived with minors,” Theresa Cardinal Brown, director of immigration and cross-border policy at the Bipartisan Policy Center, told us in an email. “So we cannot make any guesses or assumptions about how many separations based on prosecution there were or are.”
https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/did-the-obama-administration-separate-families/ 

QuoteTwo wrongs don't make a right, and Obama and Bush are no longer President. His own immigration policies are far, far from perfect and in some cases illiberal. But President Trump is now in charge, he's spearheading immigration issues, and his own department has proven itself to be far from fair and just in regards to this, which is why many people are justifiably upset and worried over his actions.

So are you saying those judges were wrong then when those judges issued the deportation orders before Trump was in office? Many people are overly upset as well, it is almost to the point of people acting like the right-wingers who were afraid of FEMA Camps.   There is nothing in this article that shows non-criminals will be deported.  If there was a reason for a deportation order in 2000, 2005, 2010, or 2015, it's not just a shove or something. 

"Fair and just" isn't a set standard.  A lot of people considered what Obama did to not be fair or just and others did.  It's a matter of perspective.  Others considered what Bush did was not fair or just and other did. It is your opinion that his policy is not fair or just.   A big reason for Trump's election win is because he was not following the political status quo that voters perceived to be going nowhere, unfair, or unjust.  It is a fact that our own laws have not been getting enforced since the Amnesty or much of the entire immigration debate wouldn't be going on today as it is.  Again, not just Obama/Democrats, but every congress and administration going back to the Amnesty of the 80s has seen to it that immigration has not been truly enforced and both side have a hand in it. 

And you are right, Obama is no longer the president, and Trump has the option not to renew that agreement (as is stated in the agreement itself), or he even could go make a new one.  There are even some provisions in the current agreement to deport refugees from before 1995 if they did not come directly to the USA first, which may be what Trump is referencing since the article doesn't go into the details of the agreement.  The article doesn't go into the basis of how it was interpreted. 

That's all on this.  I don't want to split to another thread or anything.  I understand we disagree.  Time to move on.  Other things are happening in the world.  I appreciate the civil responses.  Goodnight all.  Take care. 

Skynet

QuoteI didn't specifically say it was "Obama/Democrats", you did.  I said previous administrations.  Bush did it too.  Probably Clinton before him too. It was not the same policy as Bush or Obama (and I didn't claim it was), but your own source says it happened under them too in the second paragraph.  That falsehood in Trump's claim was that it was the same policy.  Trump was not the first to do it, which is what I said.  Trump was the first to be confronted about it.  Politifact also notes that the Obama administration did not keep count.  FactCheck.Org shows the same. 

Read the whole article:

QuoteAs a consequence of the policy, more than 2,300 immigrant children were separated from their parents as they arrived at the border this summer. Children were put into the custody of U.S. Health and Human Services and the parents referred for prosecution.

Past administrations also separated children from the adults they arrived with in the United States. But immigration experts said those separations were relatively rare and nowhere near the scale under the Trump administration.

The Obama administration began prosecuting border-crossers who had already been deported at least once, but very few of them crossed with children, so it didn’t become as visible an issue, Andrew Selee, president of the Migration Policy Institute, told us for a previous fact-check.

"There was some child separation and some pushback by immigrant advocacy groups around that, but the numbers were quite limited," Seele said.

QuoteWhile Obama’s administration generally refrained from prosecuting adults who crossed the border with their children, the Trump administration chose to prosecute adults, even when they had kids with them, said Peter Margulies, an immigration law and national security law professor at Roger Williams University School of Law, in June.

"That's a choice — one fundamentally different from the choice made by both Obama and previous presidents of both parties," Margulies said.

QuoteTweeting about family separations at the border, Trump claimed, "we had the exact same policy as the Obama administration."

That’s not true. Families were separated at the border as a result of a new Trump policy called "zero-tolerance." There were some family separations under the Obama administration, but experts say not at the scale of the Trump administration's and that they were relatively rare.

We rate Trump’s statement False.


It's a matter of scale and delivery which makes things different. Your previous talks of past administrations are an attempt to obfuscate the waters by making it seem as though the droves of children being detained in prison-like conditions has been going on for a while and in the same manner but that everyone was quiet about it because reasons.


QuoteSo are you saying those judges were wrong then when those judges issued the deportation orders before Trump was in office? Many people are overly upset as well, it is almost to the point of people acting like the right-wingers who were afraid of FEMA Camps.   There is nothing in this article that shows non-criminals will be deported.  If there was a reason for a deportation order in 2000, 2005, 2010, or 2015, it's not just a shove or something. 

Depends on the circumstances behind the orders and rationales behind it. I don't doubt that there are some which have committed grievous crimes, but again with the Republican majority in the Senate, Supreme Court, and Presidency I don't trust said orders to be handled well now.

Tolvo

https://www.dhs.gov/news/2018/12/12/walls-work

Hey can ya'll help me out here? This is supposed to be a Department of Homeland Security press release, released by Trump's Administration. It's about how they're done with much of the wall and it works and is funded. Now my question.

Am I having some sort of stroke or something reading it?

TheGlyphstone

It's sort of legible English if you mentally correct for whoever faceplanted and failed to properly pluralize 'walls'.

Tolvo

So like, I'm really confused because isn't this almost all false? That he secretly funded the Wall with hundreds of millions of dollars from congress and it is half way done and just on Sunday repelled an attack from 1,000 people? His administration lies, they've used edited footage and images before. But isn't this uh, really extreme even for them?

RedPhoenix

Quote from: Tolvo on December 13, 2018, 12:18:56 AM
So like, I'm really confused because isn't this almost all false? That he secretly funded the Wall with hundreds of millions of dollars from congress and it is half way done and just on Sunday repelled an attack from 1,000 people? His administration lies, they've used edited footage and images before. But isn't this uh, really extreme even for them?

I mean. Is it though?
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TheGlyphstone

Any official release by the White House or government at this point is about as reliable as a North Korean propaganda statement.

Tolvo

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/13/trump-inauguration-spending-under-criminal-investigation-by-federal-prosecutors-dow-jones.html

So another federal investigation into Trump, and his inauguration spending.

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/justice-department/trump-was-room-during-hush-money-discussions-nbc-news-confirms-n947536

Now a source claims that Trump was in the room during discussions of paying hush money and that he was directly involved.

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/421260-trump-telling-confidants-hes-worried-about-impeachment-report

And allegedly Trump is genuinely afraid of impeachment.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/trump-cancels-white-house-christmas-party-for-the-press

And Trump has now joined the war on christmas, very strange move for him. I thought he was the one who believed that was a thing.


gaggedLouise

Brilliant comment to Trump tweeting that there were "MANY people" willing to become his new chief of staff (without naming any):

https://twitter.com/JaymieRae2/status/1074094987653120000

:D

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: gaggedLouise on December 16, 2018, 07:18:32 AM
Brilliant comment to Trump tweeting that there were "MANY people" willing to become his new chief of staff (without naming any):

https://twitter.com/JaymieRae2/status/1074094987653120000

:D

Chris Christie ain’t one that’s for sure..

Tolvo

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/16/trump-stephen-miller-government-shut-down-border-wall

Huh so I guess the Trump Administration really might do a government shutdown to try and get their border wall they said is already partially built and funded.

gaggedLouise

Quote from: Tolvo on December 16, 2018, 05:44:37 PM
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/16/trump-stephen-miller-government-shut-down-border-wall

Huh so I guess the Trump Administration really might do a government shutdown to try and get their border wall they said is already partially built and funded.

*nods* Can somebody help begin to remove the prick?  :P

Good girl but bad  -- Proud sister of the amazing, blackberry-sweet Violet Girl

Sometimes bound and cuntrolled, sometimes free and easy 

"I'm a pretty good cook, I'm sitting on my groceries.
Come up to my kitchen, I'll show you my best recipes"

Tolvo

Well I know some doctors who can maybe help but usually they invert the prick not remove it. I know others good at getting rid of bollocks though maybe they can help.

Lustful Bride

So trump has another temper tantrum.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-slams-tech-giants-for-bias-following-reports-russians-weaponized-them-to-his-benefit/ar-BBR7uNv?ocid=spartandhp

The fact that trump tweets like he's a teenager just learning the internet makes me feel as if someone is punching me in the stomach. Its the most unprofessional, unpresidential, like behavior I have seen ever. Its endlessly humiliating to the country and the fact that people applaud this behavior and jump over one another to praise him for every little thing he does makes me physically older.

By the time his term is done I am sure my hair will be completely gray.

Tolvo

https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-underwood-announces-stipulation-dissolving-trump-foundation-under-judicial

The New York Attorney General just announced that the Trump Foundation has agreed to dissolve after a court ruling in favor of New York.

Callie Del Noire

Quote from: Tolvo on December 18, 2018, 10:23:03 AM
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-underwood-announces-stipulation-dissolving-trump-foundation-under-judicial

The New York Attorney General just announced that the Trump Foundation has agreed to dissolve after a court ruling in favor of New York.

I'm surprised.. I figured how many folks the Trumps have screwed over the years, that they would have hung him up like a rag doll.

Tolvo

AG of New York on Trump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EIph0BJNrxo

(I know it's a very minor blow in the grand schemes but I wanted an excuse for using this)

AmberStarfire

I have a question but bear in mind I'm not American. I just read an article about Trump and his planned border wall.

If they're talking about spending billions of dollars, why don't they spend it on healthcare for people who need it rather than spending it on a wall?


SweetSerenade

Quote from: AmberStarfire on December 18, 2018, 02:57:48 PM
I have a question but bear in mind I'm not American. I just read an article about Trump and his planned border wall.

If they're talking about spending billions of dollars, why don't they spend it on healthcare for people who need it rather than spending it on a wall?

Because from what I can gather universal healthcare is "socialist propoganda, and it'll never work in America"

Which mind you isn't completely wrong, because it would require modulating not just the insurance companies but how the country works in general, and those with more money and power aren't exactly keen on that.

That's what I've gathered, mind you.

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AmberStarfire

Hmmm okay. I'm sure there's a way. It's mainly a matter of someone approaching it right and the policy being let through I guess. Even if they allocated so much money to each person and allowed them to claim it back (so they're reimbursed), that would have the potential to help a lot of people.



Callie Del Noire

What I find interesting is the presidents stand on immigration.. he wanted to kill one visa lottery (the one with includes tech visas) but keeps unbelievably quiet about the one that lets him bring in folks to work his construction sites and places like Mar-a-largo at a pittance compared to other groups in the area.

Or not