Alternative Gender Pronouns

[CupidCatt]

I'd always known that some people use alternative pronouns to express their non-normative sexuality, but hadn't really come across it for real (outside of literature) before visiting Elliquiy. It made me wonder a few things, mostly how I feel about using alternative pronouns for people.

I don't have a problem with it, because I respect our individual rights to self-identify any way we like. But I also think that at the end of the day, it's me being courteous - I don't think I have a duty to adhere to somebody's claims that they are hir, hym or shm etc.

I'm writing this because I sorta hope somebody will convince me that there is a deeper reason, beyond social courtesy and good will, for adhering to the notion of gender as an entirely private creation. Because the gender binary of male and female is a massive part of my identity, and I see it everywhere I look. It is reality. And I don't think having 'third' genders diminishes that... but I don't like being compelled, under the threat of seeming insensitive or bigoted, to play along with somebody's fantasy. Especially if that person is claiming it is a fully fledged reality and I need to "get on board, or else". (This comes in reaction to a few heated PMs I had with a certain somebody, btw).

Anyone willing to explain to me why third gender pronouns are important? Without spitting in my face first, please (unless you want to take it to RP)  ;D

[Ephiral]

I'd always known that some people use alternative pronouns to express their non-normative sexuality, but hadn't really come across it for real (outside of literature) before visiting Elliquiy. It made me wonder a few things, mostly how I feel about using alternative pronouns for people.

I don't have a problem with it, because I respect our individual rights to self-identify any way we like. But I also think that at the end of the day, it's me being courteous - I don't think I have a duty to adhere to somebody's claims that they are hir, hym or shm etc.

I'm writing this because I sorta hope somebody will convince me that there is a deeper reason, beyond social courtesy and good will, for adhering to the notion of gender as an entirely private creation. Because the gender binary of male and female is a massive part of my identity, and I see it everywhere I look. It is reality. And I don't think having 'third' genders diminishes that... but I don't like being compelled, under the threat of seeming insensitive or bigoted, to play along with somebody's fantasy. Especially if that person is claiming it is a fully fledged reality and I need to "get on board, or else". (This comes in reaction to a few heated PMs I had with a certain somebody, btw).

Anyone willing to explain to me why third gender pronouns are important? Without spitting in my face first, please (unless you want to take it to RP)  ;D

Is this question being asked in good faith? I find that highly questionable when you call the identities of a significant portion of E's community, identities backed by a sizeable chunk of medical and psychological literature, a fantasy.

And... really? The gender binary, not being cis, is a part of your identity? You identify as the concept that there are exactly two genders?

As to why it's important beyond not coming across as a boorish jerk: Because binary-obsessed culture is really goddamned dangerous for trans* people.

TL;DR: If you don't want to be made out to be insensitive or bigoted, try some sensitivity.

[CupidCatt]

Is this question being asked in good faith? I find that highly questionable when you call the identities of a sizeable chunk of E's community, identities backed by a sizeable chunk of medical and psychological literature, a fantasy.

And... really? The gender binary, not being cis, is a part of your identity? You identify as the concept that there are exactly two genders?

As to why it's important beyond not coming across as a boorish jerk: Because binary-obsessed culture is really goddamned dangerous for trans* people.

Ok, I was expecting a certain level of anger. This wasn't too bad, so thanks for that.

Yep, I ask in good faith. I want to be educated, and ask questions.

I didn't mean "fantasy" negatively though I see it can come across that way. Apologies for that. I'd be interested to see what medical literature you are using to qualify the reality of alternative sexes.

I do identify with the idea that there are two essential genders, male and female. And there is a gradient between those two, but that human beings as healthy and reproductive beings identify (in the majority) with being male or female.

Dangerous? I can assure you I'd never touch you... so I don't see why you think my "obsession" with gender is any more dangerous than anyone elses.

[CupidCatt]

TL;DR: If you don't want to be made out to be insensitive or bigoted, try some sensitivity.

If you want to be taken seriously, take others seriously too.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Well, there are two sexes.  I understand there are exceptions and variations, but by and large there are two sexes.  Gender is largely a social construct and so the gradient can be extended into different areas and aspects.  The issues regarding gender identity can be quite severe and traumatic.  Imagine being told, pressured and essentially forced to behave and act a certain way that you do not feel is correct.  The worst cases are when a person literally feels as if their body is not theirs.  To borrow a touch of religion, "God made a mistake."  So the reality is the entire situation can be very trying and traumatic.  People that have come to terms with such a situation are reluctant to slide back into obscurity or be lump into definitions they obviously have problems fitting to themselves.

Now, use of pronouns such as those is a courtesy at the end of the day.  The same kind of courtesy one might extend to a woman by addressing her by a proper title or in using neutral terms to denote a position that could be held by a man or woman.  If a person insists on being referred to by such a pronoun then certainly they feel strongly enough to come forward and make the request and their request should be respected.  Now if someone is merely raising a fit because you are assumed to know something, then that is an entirely different matter.  Such pronouns are not an official part of your language and so should not be an assumed part of your vocabulary or regular speech.

[Koren]

Im going to show some sensitivity to CupidCatt.
I think a lot of the reason that things like trans* and the like are portrayed and still reacted too negitively in society (and thats speaking as a trans person, especially after seeing studies on the internet percerption of us) is because we jump down the throats of anyone who doesnt understand a concept relating to us. I realised this a lot by talking to people at uni and how they steer clear of anyone that is trans because they dont want to get jumped on if they make a mistake or say something out of ignorence.
Its one thing when they continue to be offensive and then so it just because they can, but no leyway is every provided and I dont see that as a good thing.

CupidCatt:
The reason that people often use Alternative Gender Pronouns, from my understanding which is by no means a full understanding or an authority, everyone is going to have different views on this, is because its what matches them best.
The same as women will want to be called, or find it weird not to be called as 'her' and 'she', and by the same aspect men use and recieve 'him' and 'he', some people identify as neither male or female, and so for them, these pronouns can be as alienating and uncomfortable as someone walked up to you in the street and started talking to you and refering to you as a guy (appologies, if you would have no problem with this, im just using it as an example)

Gender is as real and importaint to many people as their biological sex is. Its not in any way a fantasy, that is to say something made up or false, its a real identity that people use to identify them as who they really are. As for medical examples, Im sure you could find something in psychological papers with trials and research being done into the concept of gender identity and how some people just dont fit. Its as natural to be in the middle of the binary as it is for some people to be born with elements of both biological sexes. You see similar things with people who forced into the binary who dont belong there, as you would if a male was being forced to live as a female or visa versa. Its traumatic and damaging.

And in the end, all referances and communication is about courtesy. There is nothing to stop you from going around calling everyone a bitch, or refering to everyone as male or female just for the sake of it, nothing at all, except for the courtesy of treating people properly and refering to them as who they really are, and for many people that is not in a gender binary. And as I said above, it can be damaging for our sense of self not to be realised, on any level, in a binary or out of one, and so its that courtesy that you are presenting to those people, the same that they present to you, although yours is yes, more straightforward.

I hope I explained that okay, Im really not in the best headspace to be typing up big complex shit but I feel that was a decent explaination first off. I may come back and add to it later.

[Ephiral]

I didn't mean "fantasy" negatively though I see it can come across that way. Apologies for that. I'd be interested to see what medical literature you are using to qualify the reality of alternative sexes.

There is no inoffensive way for that to come across in this context. You are literally telling people "You don't exist." I'm sorry I reacted a bit harshly to this, but... it's particularly galling to see someone ask for civility with no apparent thought on how to be civil.

Here's a good look at the current state of the bio research. Unfortunately, a fair amount is behind paywalls or in places I don't know where to look.

I do identify with the idea that there are two essential genders, male and female. And there is a gradient between those two, but that human beings as healthy and reproductive beings identify (in the majority) with being male or female.

I think you're confusing "identify with" and "believe". And... well, if you accept that there is a gradient, why are we even having this discussion? You'd be hard-pressed to find a trans* person who doesn't accept that we're an extremely small minority.

Dangerous? I can assure you I'd never touch you... so I don't see why you think my "obsession" with gender is any more dangerous than anyone elses.

Than the general population's? I don't. The general population's focus on a gender binary leads to extremely high rates of violence against and suicide of trans* people. Than trans* folks'? Well... we're just trying to exist and not have to bury part of ourselves and deal with the psychological implications of that. That tends not to hurt people unless they're looking for an excuse to be hurt.

[CupidCatt]

Ephiral, you scare me and it's got nothing to do with your gender choices.

[CupidCatt]

Thanks Koren for making the effort even though you didn't feel in the mood. I found your post very interesting.

And thanks Pumpkin, that's my general reaction too. I don't think assuming familiarity with alternative pronouns is fair - and certainly not a reason to berate somebody.

[Koren]

Thanks Koren for making the effort even though you didn't feel in the mood. I found this very interesting.

And thanks Pumpkin, that's my general reaction too. I don't think assuming familiarity with alternative pronouns is fair - and certainly not a cause to berate somebody.

If I manage to get back into a good headspace Ill try and type up another better put one

And thats the thing, Assumptions are bad, we all know that, but as human beings we are hardwired to make them, I swear we are or else we're all just being stupid about things. Theres nothing wrong with making a wrong assumption UNLESS you are unwilling to fix it when corrected.
And hey, I have trans friends that even I get their pronouns wrong. Talking about them with other people and those people often laugh because I will freely swap between him and her when refering to them. Its a difficult thing to adjust too, for most people, and I dont think anyone has the right to judge on that. Wed all do much better, and this is on multiple subjects, if we took the time to explain with calm words rather then jump to ASSUMPTIONS that people meant offense or that they know better.

[Ephiral]

Ephiral, you scare me and it's got nothing to do with your gender choices.

I'm sorry. I'll bow out here. I... did not intend to come across this way.

[Ack Arg]

1) Group guilt can go jump in a lake.

2) "They" is usually fine, even if you're in a situation where gender neutral bathrooms are standard.

3) We have a word for people that insist on being able to define their own reality: solipsists. If you agree to play a game of chess and they say your pawns can move backwards you don't play chess with them.


There are much better things to get political about than personal pronouns.

Hey look, I said things briefly. That was fun.

[Cyrano Johnson]

I'm writing this because I sorta hope somebody will convince me that there is a deeper reason, beyond social courtesy and good will, for adhering to the notion of gender as an entirely private creation.

Given the amount of crap that transgender and transsexual people get even from the most progressive parts of our political spectrum, it's pretty safe to assume that it's not something people would subject themselves to for the proverbial shits and giggles. Since it's very unlikely that social courtesy and good will are being asked for frivolously*, I'm not sure why they wouldn't be motivator enough.

I understand your confusion: every generation has its blind spots, points in the struggle for progress that even its most progressive members have a hard time going beyond, for the simple reason that their life experience hasn't equipped them to process certain questions. The generation that ended slavery (in its original form) in the States wasn't equipped to think about also giving up racism. The generation that ended segregation and drove racialism into disrepute was for the most part not ready to think seriously about gay marriage or gay rights. Now that we've reached a real sea change in mainstream attitudes toward gays, many of us have difficulty processing that there's a whole other category of people pushing for rights and recognition whose existence we were barely aware of, if at all, during our childhoods.

So, it's natural to be confused. Sooner or later, most people hit that mental wall. The best way to deal with that confusion is to think certain things through. The step of extending the basic courtesy to another person to call them as they would like to be called is probably the most basic form of recognition there is. If it was wrong for society in the past to deny that respect to nonwhites, to women, to gays, and so on... then what real argument is there to deny it to transgendered and transsexual people? There isn't one, except for the reflex of confusion. Except for fear.

(* I don't pretend to know much about the medical or psychiatric literature on the topic, but I wouldn't be surprised to find something like gender dysmorphia or gender identity disorder is in the DSM-IV by now.)

[CupidCatt]

I appreciate that, but is it in fact all I can do?

I have no difficulty using an alternative gender pronoun if it's explained to me that the individual wants that (of course not... I think we should respect people's decisions to be called whatever they like so long as it isn't offensive).

However - does my doing so devalue a belief in male and female as gender absolutes? And if it does, how do I feel about that...

Therein lies my struggle I think. And maybe it's a good thing I got told off by somebody for misusing pronouns, cos it's a good question to ask myself, and an interesting journey into what I really believe about biological sex, gender identity and sexual expression.

[Koren]

Okay I think I get where you are coming from here
One thing you can always do is to depersonalise it. I mean (and this is going to be a rough shitty example) but does having a spectrum of greys make white and blank any less white and black? It doesnt it just means there is something in between.

I hope that made sense

[Cyrano Johnson]

However - does my doing so devalue a belief in male and female as gender absolutes?

This reminds me of the belief that recognizing gay marriage would threaten belief in "marriage between a man and a woman." For people who are genuinely at home in the skin they're in, why would it even be necessary that there be a belief in those genders as "absolutes"? All such a belief could really accomplish would be to harm people who cannot inhabit the absolutes.

[CupidCatt]

I guess I'm not talking about belief as such, I'm talking about objective reality.

I have a feeling that you would dispute the objective reality of "absolute gender" - I'm not so sure.

[Nadir]

I'd always known that some people use alternative pronouns to express their non-normative sexuality

No. Pronouns has nothing to do with sexuality. It has to do with gender.

Sexuality concerns who you are sexually attracted to. Gender has to do with your mental sex.

I don't have a problem with it, because I respect our individual rights to self-identify any way we like. But I also think that at the end of the day, it's me being courteous - I don't think I have a duty to adhere to somebody's claims that they are hir, hym or shm etc.

How much do you like to be referred to as "him" or "it"? How is it anything but ignorant to do so? 

I'm writing this because I sorta hope somebody will convince me that there is a deeper reason, beyond social courtesy and good will, for adhering to the notion of gender as an entirely private creation. Because the gender binary of male and female is a massive part of my identity, and I see it everywhere I look. It is reality. And I don't think having 'third' genders diminishes that... but I don't like being compelled, under the threat of seeming insensitive or bigoted, to play along with somebody's fantasy. Especially if that person is claiming it is a fully fledged reality and I need to "get on board, or else". (This comes in reaction to a few heated PMs I had with a certain somebody, btw).

If you received any hateful PMs from members of this site, you should let a S-level mod know about it.

As for third gendered people not being part of reality? Wow. No. We exist. We are not unicorns. We are ignored or mocked by almost every media source. Here is a wikipedia article that shows we have been around for a long ass time. We have been a part of reality longer than most religions have been alive. How much more "real" do we have to be?

[Koren]

^ Told you I said it crappy haha. Dims much better at explaining this sort of stuff and much neater and in much less words then me.

[Cyrano Johnson]

I have a feeling that you would dispute the objective reality of "absolute gender" - I'm not so sure.

There are indisputably cultural interpretations of gender that only recognize two genders, and thought they were describing "objective reality." Many of us grew up with them. But it is always perfectly possible for such constructs to be completely wrong, just as the constructs that once believed they were "objectively describing" something called "race" were just totally wrong. I think it's already pretty clear that "absolute gender" in the sense you mean it is headed for the same fate.

[CupidCatt]

OK, but who is "we"? Cos that Wiki article refers to a concept of gender expression that is very much local to the Western world, late 20th/early 21st century world view. It is synthesizing various local expressions and kind of lumps them together into one basket. I don't know how convincing that is when discussing something so basic as the a third gender, outside of procreative male and female.

I do appreciate the social need for expressing genders outside of male and female for people who don't feel part of either of those... and if it's being more honest about who you are, that can't be anything but good. Does that invalidate the basic duality of male and female? I dunno.

[CupidCatt]

There are indisputably cultural interpretations of gender that only recognize two genders, and thought they were describing "objective reality." Many of us grew up with them. But it is always perfectly possible for such constructs to be completely wrong, just as the constructs that once believed they were "objectively describing" something called "race" were just totally wrong. I think it's already pretty clear that "absolute gender" in the sense you mean it is headed for the same fate.

I'm not so sure. I mean, we're having this conversation in a context that exists in a relatively limited environment. Most people on the face of this planet are not exploring gender in this way (culturally speaking anyway) - I think it's fairly local to Western cultures, at least in terms of gender being subjective, not necessarily related to any biological reality, and disconnected from larger societal concerns.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Does that invalidate the basic duality of male and female? I dunno.

Why would it? Is someone demanding that nobody think of or refer to themselves as male and female? That this duality doesn't get to comprise the entirety of gender doesn't mean it would be nonexistent or somehow threatened. It's not like if we use alternative gender pronouns, 90% of the planet is going to wake up tomorrow and demand gender reassignment surgery.

[CupidCatt]

Why would it? Is someone demanding that nobody think of or refer to themselves as male and female? That this duality doesn't get to comprise the entirety of gender doesn't mean it would be nonexistent or somehow threatened. It's not like if we use alternative gender pronouns, 90% of the planet is going to wake up tomorrow and demand gender reassignment surgery.

It's a bit destabilizing. Because then the integrity of male and female as these somehow immutable realities ceases to be... real. And that changes things. Maybe for the better, sure, but it's disingenuous to say nothing substantial will be different. Also I think referencing this to the race issue is a bit off the mark.

[Cyrano Johnson]

Most people on the face of this planet are not exploring gender in this way (culturally speaking anyway)

Gay marriage and women's rights are hardly popular with the majority of the planet yet, either. I wouldn't necessarily take that as an excuse to code either gay or trans-rights as being somehow a frivolous Western concern. They're at the stage they are where many of us live because of specific historical battles that have been fought, that haven't necessarily happened elsewhere.

not necessarily related to any biological reality, and disconnected from larger societal concerns.

Mental health is a biological reality, and anything affecting some part of a society is a larger societal concern.

I think you're kind of making excuses here. Maybe a good first step is to do some introspection about what really has you this uncomfortable with the whole subject.

[Nadir]

"We" being those who are not of the gender binary. And no, that article has dozens of cultures across the world that have accepted three or more gender as the social norm. A gender that was neither male or female was written about by one of the first cultures to use the written language - so I ask again, how long until we stop being fiction?

I do appreciate the social need for expressing genders outside of male and female for people who don't feel part of either of those... and if it's being more honest about who you are, that can't be anything but good. Does that invalidate the basic duality of male and female? I dunno.

Do I, being not male or female, invalidate male and female? what

[Cyrano Johnson]

It's a bit destabilizing. Because then the integrity of male and female as these somehow immutable realities ceases to be... real.

Well, the "immutable" ship sailed when gender reassignment became a possibility, but the integrity and reality of most people feeling male and female is not going anywhere. The vague concern about "destabilization" doesn't seem warranted to me.

[CupidCatt]

I think you're kind of making excuses here. Maybe a good first step is to do some introspection about what really has you this uncomfortable with the whole subject.

I think that's a deflective statement, intended to intimidate. Just because I don't necessarily agree with the ideas being presented doesn't preclude me from having an opinion, or learning from yours. Because that's what you're expressing right now... your opinion.

[CupidCatt]

Well, the "immutable" ship sailed when gender reassignment became a possibility, but the integrity and reality of most people feeling male and female is not going anywhere. The vague concern about "destabilization" doesn't seem warranted to me.

? How does the ability to cosmetically transform the body figure into the dynamics of this....

And again, just because my opinions seem "unwarranted" to you isn't any reason to be patronizing and tell me to go and think about it 'smore.

I have thought about it and am ready to reach out and talk. I feel like you shutting me down isn't helpful.

[Cyrano Johnson]

I feel like you shutting me down isn't helpful.

You're right. Sorry. Probably a sign that I need to recharge the batteries and come at it fresh tomorrow.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I do wonder if you are confusing sex and gender.  They are two different things.

[CupidCatt]

I do wonder if you are confusing sex and gender.  They are two different things.

Maybe I am confusing them. But isn't it healthy for one to grow out of the other?

[Nadir]

So female-to-male guys are, what, confused? Lying? Fairies?

[CupidCatt]

Yeah, cos I'm saying anyone who isn't biologically male or female and identifies with the corresponding gender is crazy, a liar, or a mythological being.

It's not like you're misrepresenting my questions or anything.

[Nadir]

Please don't delete your posts from a debate. Deleting a post that has been replied to is against the site rules.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Sex is biological and certainly most would consider the "gold standard" to be healthy.  Still healthy is a relative term and people are born with differences from the standard, going on to live healthy lives.  Obviously things can be different for them, but because someone is different does not mean they are not healthy.

Certainly things would be easier for people if their gender matched their sex.  Gender is a social construct based around people's perception of sex and the roles given over to people based on their sex.  I think anyone that is in that situation would attest that their life would be easier if they didn't feel the need to break free of the prescribed identity.  Of course then those people would not be who they are and so be different people altogether.  Keep in mind that in Western Culture there are typically two genders, but in other cultures that was not so.  I do remember a Native American tribe for instance that allowed a transition of the gender roles based on individual preference.  People that feel a tug toward what I guess would be called an alternative gender can still lead healthy lives, once more different is not necessarily unhealthy. 

[Koren]

Maybe I am confusing them. But isn't it healthy for one to grow out of the other?

Not really no. In fact it can be incrediby unhealthy for one to define the other just because they are both there
Sex is biological, your bits and reproductive organs
Gender is mental, and not at all connected to sex for many people, controlled by the brain and only the brain.

For some people these align, for cis-gendered females and males, and for others these are completely disconnected or even opposite.
The idea that they have to match to be healthy and natural is quite an old view.

The idea that people who dont have their sex and gender matching is unhealthy is part of the reason why trans people struggle to find acceptance, because we are told we are unnatural, the same way that gays often are.
Its not a fantasy or a construct or a flight of fancy for people to ahve a sperate gender, whether thats agendered, transgendered, gender fluid or anything else, its real, and its in the brain and its just who people are.
And just like gays, people being able to identify as they gender they want (not sex) is not threatening anyone elses right to do so, even if their gender and sex lines up perfectly

[CupidCatt]

I didn't delete any posts.

I am however considering deleting the entire thread, cos this is not a debate (surprised you think it is) - so far, you've basically attacked me and everything I've said, and don't seem able to talk about it without the whole thing devolving into "wow she's so dumb for not thinking exactly the same way we do" semi-bullying.

[CupidCatt]

Not really no. In fact it can be incrediby unhealthy for one to define the other just because they are both there

Are you actually saying it is not healthy to be born a biological female (for example) and identify with the female gender? I don't understand that at all  ???

[Koren]

Deleting threads is very frowned upon here.

No ones calling you dumb, but it does come off as an attack when you suggest (whether or not its intended, readers perception will change things) that by being who we are, we are threatening your identity which has nothing to do with us, which is also a major complaint about accepting homosexuality, and is actually very painful to have direction at you

Are you actually saying it is not healthy to be born a biological female (for example) and identify with the female gender? I don't understand that at all  ???

Im not saying thats unhealthy, im saying that it may not be healthy for some people to be forced into conforming to a female gender simply because their sex is female

Also you can use quote buttons on posts in the reply pages to cut down on double posting, which makes it harder for people to respond to you. It will insert multiple quotes into one post

[Nadir]

I didn't delete any posts.

I am however considering deleting the entire thread, cos this is not a debate (surprised you think it is) - so far, you've basically attacked me and everything I've said, and don't seem able to talk about it without the whole thing devolving into "wow she's so dumb for not thinking exactly the same way we do" semi-bullying.

Oh, so I just imagined you saying that a person with ovaries is and always will be female?

I've not attacked you. I've asked you questions that you've ignored. I feel like you've attacked me by saying my gender is a choice, a fiction, a trivial hinderance to your happy existence.

[CupidCatt]

Oh, so I just imagined you saying that a person with ovaries is and always will be female?

I've not attacked you. I've asked you questions that you've ignored. I feel like you've attacked me by saying my gender is a choice, a fiction, a trivial hinderance to your happy existence.

That was an edit to clarify cos I most certainly never said any of those things.

I mean, come on. I know gender and identity are delicate things but this sort of hyper-sensitivity is just... excessive? I can't even talk to you about it without being derided? My "happy existence" is in no way dependent on whatever gender you have. And I think I'm done here - this really hasn't been a positive experience.

[Koren]

My "happy existence" is in no way dependent on whatever gender you have

When youve stepped away from this for a few days go back and reread over what you said, because to us certainly it sounded like you were saying we were threatening your happiness and stability by having our own gender identity

[CupidCatt]

I was talking in the abstract, about the very ideas at play here. I was trying to, anyway.

And I'm sorry, but I don't intend to ever revisit this thread again. If it stays it stays, but the only stuff I've learned is that sometimes it's just better not to ask.

[Koren]

But even if it was in the abstract, can you see how the same pain is behind it? The same as when that concept is applied to sexuality?

You can always ask. Just be careful how you do so. Because the nature of writing is that things are NEVER taken exactly how you mean them. Wording is everything
If youre interested look up a concept of "The Author is Dead"

[CupidCatt]

It feels like you're saying "this hurts me, so don't go there". That doesn't help discussion... I don't want to hurt you, but if the actual topic is about something that not only defines a big part of you, but is also a bone of contention... it's a Catch 22 situation.

[Blythe]

I would like to try to explain in the best way I can, as a FtM transgender individual recently coming into a more formative sense of identity. I hope do not offend you, although I do feel a bit offended by the thread. Put that to my personal bias for now. I'd rather try to convince you that genderfluidity exists and deserves acknowledgement than get too bothered.

I'd always known that some people use alternative pronouns to express their non-normative sexuality, but hadn't really come across it for real (outside of literature) before visiting Elliquiy. It made me wonder a few things, mostly how I feel about using alternative pronouns for people.

I don't have a problem with it, because I respect our individual rights to self-identify any way we like. But I also think that at the end of the day, it's me being courteous - I don't think I have a duty to adhere to somebody's claims that they are hir, hym or shm etc.

Pronouns are an expression of a social and mental construct of gender. There is a divide that exists between the social and mental construct of gender versus the biological expression of gender. Those who identify as transgender or genderfluid (or a myriad of other options) have rejected this gender binary norm socially and mentally. Many trans individuals go on to reject it physically by switching genders.

At the end of the day, you don't have a duty to adhere to it. But when you do not, you are failing to acknowledge us as the people we see ourselves to be. A decent example would be....you consider yourself very set in your gender, right? What if someone called you the opposite gender and refused to stop? That is not who you are. You need to be acknowledged as how you see yourself, right? To be told you're the other gender would make you feel ugly, incomplete, maybe even freakish. That is how we feel when we are not acknowledged for how we are.

It's okay. It's confusing. But we don't mind questions to help you figure us out better.

I'm writing this because I sorta hope somebody will convince me that there is a deeper reason, beyond social courtesy and good will, for adhering to the notion of gender as an entirely private creation. Because the gender binary of male and female is a massive part of my identity, and I see it everywhere I look. It is reality.

Gender is not a private creation. Gender is a complex social, mental, and physical construct. And when one of these traits is out of balance in some way, a person will likely identify as genderfluid, trans, etc.

I'd like to ask you to open your mind a little bit. Does the existence of additional gender concepts necessarily invalidate your gender? I don't think it does. I don't think our existence diminishes your gender existence. Why should it? I mean, think logically: the genders male and female are reality, yes. But this does not necessarily mean that other gender concepts are not there and should not be acknowledged. In other words, they are not the ONLY reality.

And I don't think having 'third' genders diminishes that... but I don't like being compelled, under the threat of seeming insensitive or bigoted, to play along with somebody's fantasy.

Are you sure you don't think it dimishes you? You have made a rather large assumption--that our gender concepts are a fantasy. Why is it a fantasy? There are people that are born intersexed--with partial or full expressions of both types of genitalia. They are obviously not fantasizing. When you could be both genders, are you obligated to choose from two? I believe intersexed individuals are their own gender. There are people in society that are neuter, too--my uncle is effectively castrated, and he seems to have ceased to refer to himself as "male." Is it such a large step from physical expression of gender to the social and mental expressions that we've gotten to?

I am not fantasizing. I have also been mentally diagnosed as a completely healthy individual. I am in complete control of my own mind, and these concepts are clear to me.

Especially if that person is claiming it is a fully fledged reality and I need to "get on board, or else". (This comes in reaction to a few heated PMs I had with a certain somebody, btw).

I don't think you've been told in a broad sense to "get on board or else."  (Although you may have been told in PM, obviously....)  You're being asked to provide a common courtesy, to acknolwedge an individual's sense of identity. We would do it for you. Always.  And I don't think it upsets the idea of male and female--I think it adds to, enhances, and gives more meaning to those concepts.

Anyone willing to explain to me why third gender pronouns are important? Without spitting in my face first, please (unless you want to take it to RP)  ;D

No spit for you. But the third gender pronouns are important because they are a sign of true person-hood. If you don't even make an effort to acknowledge and use our pronouns, you are denying us the chance to be the people that we are. I know it's complicated. I know it's an upsetting concept when you're very comfortable with gender binary.

But it wouldn't hurt you to give it a chance. Genderfluid people aren't really all that common, so overall, I believe this impacts you little, and could make people like me very happy if you accepted us as we are.

Think it over, CupidCatt. I wrote this very late, and it might not be a great explanation, but I hope that you see it is from the heart.

~Blythe

[Nadir]

It feels like you're saying "this hurts me, so don't go there". That doesn't help discussion... I don't want to hurt you, but if the actual topic is about something that not only defines a big part of you, but is also a bone of contention... it's a Catch 22 situation.

Next time, don't call the people you are trying to understand fiction. It starts you on the wrong foot. You want to understand, great. Just try to be a little more understanding.

*applauds Blythe*

[Blythe]

Thank you, Dim Hon.

[DarklingAlice]

Let's see if I can shed some light, however tiredly and briefly (I almost feel like I should get a boilerplate for this sort of thing...)

I think that the largest part of CupidCatt's confusion can be traced to two ideas:

I guess I'm not talking about belief as such, I'm talking about objective reality.

I have a feeling that you would dispute the objective reality of "absolute gender" - I'm not so sure.

For starters...talking about objective reality is never a good idea, but skipping the whole primer on enlightenment philosophy...let's look at the second part "Absolute Gender". I find this concept interesting and probably at the root of this entire conversation. There is a prevailing myth that Gender is just this ages old thing, y'know? A man is a man and a woman is a woman and only nowadays do we have all these transfolk muddling it up. A lot of people have been focusing on the second part of that, I want to look at the first: The very concept of what a man or woman is is not even constant across cultural boundaries today, much less historically.

Your average American male is not a 'man' in the same sense that your average European male is a 'man'. African 'men' do not possess an expectation to conform to the machismo of Hispanic 'men'. No modern 'man' possesses the classical Greek aner. There are a few basal commonalities, but any one 'man' from these categories would find fault with the 'man' from another of these categories, demonstrating the inherent subjectivity of the definition. Indeed, it is probably that there are people who are trans* in our society purely because our subjective definition of 'man' does not fit them, but were they to have been born in a different society with a different 'man' concept would be cis* (this is what I call 'regressive gender identity').

[CupidCatt]

Next time, don't call the people you are trying to understand fiction. It starts you on the wrong foot. You want to understand, great. Just try to be a little more understanding.

*applauds Blythe*

The only reason I'm not deleting this thread is because of Blythe's response. Others tried to offer some reasoned help, but Dim Hom I feel like you've been particularly passive aggressive, and made me feel wretched. So please leave me out of your future posts here.

Thanks Blythe, you've given me plenty to think about. I am grateful.

[Cyrano Johnson]

If it stays it stays, but the only stuff I've learned is that sometimes it's just better not to ask.

You know, I apologized to you earlier... but looking at this thread again and your behaviour since, I'm less and less convinced I should have.

If you ask for discussion because you are genuinely interested in developing an informed opinion, and prepared to revisit your assumptions, that's one thing. Then you're a reasonable person reaching out. If you ask for discussion but really have no plans on approaching it with an open mind -- to the point where you're willing to immediately try to shut down contrary opinion by accusing people of bullying, or looking at a thread that's seen quite generous engagement from people you surely have to know you're insulting and claiming to have learned nothing fomr it -- then what you're doing is being a faux-reasonable certain-sort-of-entity-that-once-was-thought-to-live-under-bridges.

(EDIT: Posted before I saw the reply to Blythe. Hopefully that means I'm wrong, and you're the former rather than the latter.)

[Caeli]

I wanted to thank some of the individuals (especially Blythe, Dim, Koren, and Pumpkin - only naming them because these are the posts I remember most clearly) in this thread for attempting to explain their answers to the original intended question of the OP, in a way that is accessible to individuals who don't have the same experience, understanding, or knowledge of gender that you do. I understand that gender can be very nuanced and extremely complex, but I feel like I've learned quite a bit from your posts here.

[CupidCatt]

Cyrano, bite me.

This thread is getting flushed. Somebody please save Blythe's lovely post.

And thanks DarklingAlice, I found your post engaging too.

[Blythe]

The only reason I'm not deleting this thread is because of Blythe's response. Others tried to offer some reasoned help, but Dim Hom I feel like you've been particularly passive aggressive, and made me feel wretched. So please leave me out of your future posts here.

Thanks Blythe, you've given me plenty to think about. I am grateful.

CupidCatt, I don't ask that you agree with me. I only ask that you be willing to debate with me and come to a conclusion. I can only hope it's the one I argue for.

Think on it; I really urge you to. The other Lieges here are unhappy, because many of us have gone though very bad and traumatic experiences. We are wounded people, many of us, constantly fighting an uphill struggle on a battlefield that seems neverending.

Thank you for listening, CupidCatt. You may PM me if you ever wish to speak about genderfluidity or the trans lifestyle. I'm always willing to clarify what I can as best I can in the hopes that, if more people know, the more it might help not just me, but the many like me.

~Blythe

[Koren]

If I was being passive agressive then im sorry, but I was just trying to explain a perspective of it. If you want send me a PM with bits you think I was being passive-agressive on and we can discuss it

Also as I mentioned, it is against the rules to delete threads and posts.

I wanted to thank some of the individuals (especially Blythe, Dim, Koren, and Pumpkin - only naming them because these are the posts I remember most clearly) in this thread for attempting to explain their answers to the original intended question of the OP, in a way that is accessible to individuals who don't have the same experience, understanding, or knowledge of gender that you do. I understand that gender can be very nuanced and extremely complex, but I feel like I've learned quite a bit from your posts here.

And no problem Caeli. IM glad you were able to get something out of this

[Pumpkin Seeds]

This thread has moved quite rapidly and emotions are running high.  I think a pause is best at this point before things get out of hand if not already.

[CupidCatt]

If I was being passive agressive then im sorry, but I was just trying to explain a perspective of it. If you want send me a PM with bits you think I was being passive-agressive on and we can discuss it

Also as I mentioned, it is against the rules to delete threads and posts.

And no problem Caeli. IM glad you were able to get something out of this

Koren I didn't say you were, I appreciated your contributions.

[Koren]

Feel free to PM me then if youd like to discuss this more in private

[Cyrano Johnson]

Cyrano, bite me.

Now that feels like honesty.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Please everyone just take a step back, breathe and resume later.  The thread will be here in a few hours and tempers will be more in line to have an informative, polite conversation.

[CupidCatt]

Now that feels like honesty.

It's really sad that the only man (presumably also gender male) participant in the thread is also a smug, high and might asshole.

Not only did you keep chiding me throughout for not seeing things your way, as though that meant I had an inferior view... but then you come along back and say I'm a troll. Meh. Not cool.

[Koren]

Hey. Step away. Thats crossing the line

Staff can we maybe lock this thread? (if theres any around)

[Valerian]

The original post in this thread comes across as deciding not to try to understand the distinctions between gender and sex or to acknowledge the spectrum therein--much like some people do not see the spectrum from heterosexuality to homosexuality.  However, whether or not you believe or understand the terms and or the people who self-identify as neither male or female or both... it is not acceptable to bash them, tell them they are crazy, or otherwise demean their individuality.  Privately or publicly. 

Not on this site.

Acknowledging people for who they are -- as they define it, not how you define it --  is not optional. It's the only polite thing to do, and it's the only thing E will permit.  Please bear this in mind at all times, and particularly when especially sensitive topics are being discussed.

This thread will remain locked so that any further discussion of the subject can start fresh.  Thank you.