Russia/Ukraine discussion (split from News thread)

[Tolvo]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671

So hey Ukraine and Russia may be going to full blown war and the EU and NATO may intervene.

[gaggedLouise]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-46338671

So hey Ukraine and Russia may be going to full blown war and the EU and NATO may intervene.

Russia and the EU will probably try to contain it and avoid a full-scale flare-up - I think so far there's just one reported sailor casualty - but it sounds like a sticky incident all the same. Hope Trump stays away from it. :)

[Tolvo]

I just wonder if Russia or Ukraine will go along with that.

[gaggedLouise]

I just wonder if Russia or Ukraine will go along with that.

I don't think Russia wants a major upgrade of the Ukraine conflict into a wider war for now. And Ukraine will be heading for elections next year, while the country is still almost bankrupt - if they have any brains they don't want a big war with Russia either. Nor does the rest of Europe.

[Beguile's Mistress]

I think they are just doing it to get attention; like teenagers acting out!

[Nachtmahr]

I don't think Russia wants a major upgrade of the Ukraine conflict into a wider war for now. And Ukraine will be heading for elections next year, while the country is still almost bankrupt - if they have any brains they don't want a big war with Russia either. Nor does the rest of Europe.

I have wonder whether any of us would need to worry about a post-war economy if it comes to that.

Ironically, I've just started playing Fallout 4 again a couple of days ago.

This Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/a0bn37/russia_fires_on_and_seizes_ukraine_ships/ Seems like a good source for updates on this story. The top poster seems to be doing a great job keeping up with it.

No matter whether or not this incident is resolved peacefully, I think it's safe to say that the conflict has escalated.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

I don't think Russia wants a major upgrade of the Ukraine conflict into a wider war for now. And Ukraine will be heading for elections next year, while the country is still almost bankrupt - if they have any brains they don't want a big war with Russia either. Nor does the rest of Europe.

UN and EU, they please need staying out, of this.

[Lustful Bride]

UN and EU, they please need staying out, of this.

Actually this falls within the UN's jurisdiction I feel. Its the UN's job to keep conflicts from escalating.

[Tolvo]

They might get dragged in, and both Russia and Ukraine seem incredibly pissed about this incident. Also thanks Nacht I know people living around the incident who were telling me some things they were seeing on the news but had no real articles to link on that stuff to confirm anything happening.

[Icelandic]

Actually this falls within the UN's jurisdiction I feel. Its the UN's job to keep conflicts from escalating.

I'm not going to speak for Tsarina, but I would be worried about even the UN being involved with it. If they act more as a 'containment force' against Russia, then that's not gunna do anything but make the situation worse.

[Lustful Bride]

I'm not going to speak for Tsarina, but I would be worried about even the UN being involved with it. If they act more as a 'containment force' against Russia, then that's not gunna do anything but make the situation worse.

That's a fair point.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

Actually this falls within the UN's jurisdiction I feel. Its the UN's job to keep conflicts from escalating.

I think things get very much worse with UN involved though.

[Nachtmahr]

I'm not going to speak for Tsarina, but I would be worried about even the UN being involved with it. If they act more as a 'containment force' against Russia, then that's not gunna do anything but make the situation worse.

If this was indeed an illegal or aggressive move by the Ukrainians, as the Russian side of this debacle suggests, then obviously it won't do any good to bring the hammer down on Russia for taking action. But it's extremely touchy at the moment.

[Tolvo]

It's basically a problem that the UN is either gonna not do enough or do too much, and already tensions between them and Russia is really high. I like the idea of the UN but they really suck at actually enforcing things and Russia is really too powerful to be forced to do anything easily regarding international laws. As well Russia can actually argue that Ukraine was the aggressor in this specific incidence.

[Icelandic]

That's a fair point.

Honestly. I think it's just best to abandon Ukraine. The status quo was that Ukraine was softly in Russia's camp before we instigated a coup and now we are acting like NATO's reach landing right on Russia's doorstep is not aggressive.

Ukraine is not worth a NATO-Russia war.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

And, US will not lift finger for helping UN in Ukraine, I promise.

[Icelandic]

It's basically a problem that the UN is either gonna not do enough or do too much, and already tensions between them and Russia is really high. I like the idea of the UN but they really suck at actually enforcing things and Russia is really too powerful to be forced to do anything easily regarding international laws. As well Russia can actually argue that Ukraine was the aggressor in this specific incidence.

Basically, I would just not want to see ANY outsider military forces in or over Ukraine. That includes NATO, the US and even the UN. It's far too risky for that kind of posturing, and for so little reward.

[Nachtmahr]

Basically, I would just not want to see ANY outsider military forces in or over Ukraine. That includes NATO, the US and even the UN. It's far too risky for that kind of posturing, and for so little reward.

On the other hand, we can't just let Russia expand in whatever direction they want because each individual annexation isn't a big deal in and of itself.

[Tolvo]

Yeah. Ukraine deserves their own sovereignty. Russia is trying to take everything they can wherever and have no right to do so.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/25/us-mexico-border-crossing-closes-migrants

Also in other news things at the border aren't looking so good, and the US is now firing tear gas grenades at them, including at children. So we are very firmly in the "Evil Bastards" camp at this point.

[Lustful Bride]

Yeah. Ukraine deserves their own sovereignty. Russia is trying to take everything they can wherever and have no right to do so.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/nov/25/us-mexico-border-crossing-closes-migrants

Also in other news things at the border aren't looking so good, and the US is now firing tear gas grenades at them, including at children. So we are very firmly in the "Evil Bastards" camp at this point.

I despise the current administration so much. The next elections cant get here soon enough.

[Tolvo]

Yeah it is one of those things of, "They deserve their own government. Their current government is run by idiot bastards though." I'm not sure who I'd even want in power there, they have a lot of fascists that are there, but there aren't any other real good options. Like there are rebel groups with somewhat better politics, but they're rebel groups and that'd be asking for even more bloody war and would make them weaker for Russia.

[Lustful Bride]

Yeah it is one of those things of, "They deserve their own government. Their current government is run by idiot bastards though." I'm not sure who I'd even want in power there, they have a lot of fascists that are there, but there aren't any other real good options. Like there are rebel groups with somewhat better politics, but they're rebel groups and that'd be asking for even more bloody war and would make them weaker for Russia.

I actually meant the US government :P  I don't know enough about the Ukraine to judge its government.

It doesn't matter how many people are trying to climb the US/Mexico border fence, this entire thing is being handled in the worse way and brings yet more shame to us.

[The Lovely Tsaritsa]

Yeah. Ukraine deserves their own sovereignty. Russia is trying to take everything they can wherever and have no right to do so.

All I will say, many in Ukraine, especially Eastern regions, would prefer annexation by Russia. They aren’t given peaceful choice, for doing this, no Brexit referendum for them. I wish, this was possible.

Western media also doesn’t show all sides, of what happens. What happens here, it’s very complicated. Not only “Russia is bad”.

I stop posting on this now, I think. I don’t wish, for arguing with friends.

[Tolvo]

I don't read or just watch Western media, I try to get media from all over when it is possible and do know people living around the world, including in and around Ukraine and Russia. I'd still say Russia is bad but in the same way the USA, or the UK, or Israel, or most governments I find to be bad.

[Icelandic]

On the other hand, we can't just let Russia expand in whatever direction they want because each individual annexation isn't a big deal in and of itself.

I think it would be best to set a hard limit on how far east NATO can expand. I think no former Soviet states is fair for the sake of keeping the peace.