D&D (in every incarnation), Pathfinder and other System Games

[Black Howling]

Wait, she thinks the weapons on, say, TL 3 have insufficient power against plate armour ;D? Or am I getting you wrong?
Because people usually think that weapons on TL3 have too much power against plate. For example, it was literally invulnerable against slashing attacks.
But she's right, that's one of the two problems of the system. However, since this one is easily amended by tinkering with the gear stats to produce the results you want, I wouldn't exactly call it "glaring".
The other one is the lack of a social system that mirrors the depth of the combat one, but then some people don't even want one of those ;).

No, it was me that thought the highest TL weapons and armor were off balances with one another. You see, Tl9+ armor(because it increases with TL) cannot be bypassed by the weapons they present without one of two outcomes. Destroying the character wearing it in one or two hits, or not being able to even scratch them for an hour or two. It was glaring because it wasn't easy to fix until I actually figured out the problem, and turned into a four hour headache. She doesn't understand the advantages, disadvantages; and general point system. I know it makes sense to you and I; but she is a noob. It's as hard for her to understand as feats, skills, and powers were.

I'm sure you'd have some trouble finding things that don't exist.  (If you go looking earlier in this thread, my points will be about Games That Marginalize Women, which is not d20-specific at all.)

I'm sorry, I did have you confused directly with another conversation now that I look back on it. My apologies, that was wrong of me not to do my research. I'll try not to be so hasty or the like in the future. It was careless and inconsiderate of me.

Still, your points are how two systems were broken not one that wasn't and how it wasn't broken. You just showed me glaring issues you have, that I don't even come into on my games. The glaring issues I have are completely different; showing again how people differ in their pursuits toward what is fun, and what those around them actually produce at the gaming table or otherwise.
.

[meikle]

3:16 Carnage Amongst the Stars and Apocalypse World are two games that I've played and don't feel have any glaring flaws.  They're also very tight games that don't focus on providing a plethora of mechanical options, which is where I think most games end up messing things up.

I'm sure you'll agree that "I haven't run into that problem" is not the same as the problem not existing.

[Black Howling]

3:16 Carnage Amongst the Stars and Apocalypse World are two games that I've played and don't feel have any glaring flaws.  They're also very tight games that don't focus on providing a plethora of mechanical options, which is where I think most games end up messing things up.

I'm sure you'll agree that "I haven't run into that problem" is not the same as the problem not existing.

I do agree, but for some people problems aren't really problems. As I'm sure you have likely never run into some of mine. Our problems will likely seem trivial to each other. Just like I could say NWoD didn't have any issues I seen. This is mechanically of course, and I'm sure tons of people will disagree with me. Rules heavy does tend to clunk things up.

[Thufir Hawat]

No, it was me that thought the highest TL weapons and armor were off balances with one another. You see, Tl9+ armor(because it increases with TL) cannot be bypassed by the weapons they present without one of two outcomes. Destroying the character wearing it in one or two hits, or not being able to even scratch them for an hour or two. It was glaring because it wasn't easy to fix until I actually figured out the problem, and turned into a four hour headache. She doesn't understand the advantages, disadvantages; and general point system. I know it makes sense to you and I; but she is a noob. It's as hard for her to understand as feats, skills, and powers were.

On TL6+, your primary defence is "don't get hit", not armour, and to me, that's a feature, not a bug ;).
TL9 is still in the future, so it runs into the additional problem that we have no idea yet what the weapons would look like. Since we're talking RL measurements, it's better to stay within settings we have RL accounts for.

[TheGlyphstone]

I'd say that the simpler or more narrowly focused a game is, the less likely it is to have flaws...and conversely, the bigger and broader a game, the more likely something will slip through the cracks.

Kobolds Ate My Baby, for example, is an incredibly simple game and intended for comedy, and if it has a flaw, it's that kobolds could die even easier than they do already. Or Everyone Is John - how many flaws can you find in a game with one stat and three rules?

[Black Howling]

On TL6+, your primary defence is "don't get hit", not armour, and to me, that's a feature, not a bug ;).
TL9 is still in the future, so it runs into the additional problem that we have no idea yet what the weapons would look like. Since we're talking RL measurements, it's better to stay within settings we have RL accounts for.

Yes, but my best allure is that it can play scifi games very well; and aside from that issue it does. I never had an issue with any other TL, but that one is very screwy. I fixed the problem, but when it's something that shouldn't be one since they think beam weapons blast through the armor; it's quite tiring.

[Thufir Hawat]

Yes, but my best allure is that it can play scifi games very well; and aside from that issue it does. I never had an issue with any other TL, but that one is very screwy. I fixed the problem, but when it's something that shouldn't be one since they think beam weapons blast through the armor; it's quite tiring.

Sure, and I'm saying that beam weapons blasting through armour is a feature to me and not a bug. That's why there are so many optional rules and we can adjust the gear ;).

I'd say that the simpler or more narrowly focused a game is, the less likely it is to have flaws...and conversely, the bigger and broader a game, the more likely something will slip through the cracks.

Kobolds Ate My Baby, for example, is an incredibly simple game and intended for comedy, and if it has a flaw, it's that kobolds could die even easier than they do already. Or Everyone Is John - how many flaws can you find in a game with one stat and three rules?

"Too simple" might be a flaw in itself, but it's not a glaring one since people that find it a flaw wouldn't use the game in the first place 8-).

[TheGlyphstone]

Fair enough. And on the same line of thought, both of those are beer-and-pretzel-style comedy games - "comedic" could technically be a flaw for people who treat RPGs as serious dramatic material.

[meikle]

Which is probably why it's better to determine whether something is a flaw based on how it interacts with the game's design goal, and not on the basis of 'do I, personally, like this?'

A comedy being funny isn't a flawed comedy, after all, even if you don't like comedies.

[Black Howling]

Sure, and I'm saying that beam weapons blasting through armour is a feature to me and not a bug. That's why there are so many optional rules and we can adjust the gear ;).
"Too simple" might be a flaw in itself, but it's not a glaring one since people that find it a flaw wouldn't use the game in the first place 8-).

You misunderstood what I said. The beam weapons are stated to cut through armor, but they barely bypass it. You did this on more then a few times. First I clearly state that the "highest TL Armors cannot be bypassed by the Highest TL weapons" and you mention TL6 which is completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about. Then you state I say beam weapons are the issue, when I have already said that the armor is. The creators gave incorrect information about the weapons to armor ratio, the strongest 20 pound beam weapon can't hardly touch the armor. I hope that clarify's what I was saying, since it seems that you keep misunderstanding my writing.

Meikle might be on something since they state it's 'perfect for Sci-Fi games' yet their tech information does not work as written.

[TheGlyphstone]

Which is probably why it's better to determine whether something is a flaw based on how it interacts with the game's design goal, and not on the basis of 'do I, personally, like this?'

A comedy being funny isn't a flawed comedy, after all, even if you don't like comedies.

No, but you might consider a comedic game to be a flawed game if you don't like comedic games. Of course, if you consider anything funny to be flawed because it's funny, you've got bigger problems than your choice of RPG. :-)

[Black Howling]

No, but you might consider a comedic game to be a flawed game if you don't like comedic games. Of course, if you consider anything funny to be flawed because it's funny, you've got bigger problems than your choice of RPG. :-)

Haha! Ain't that true.

[meikle]

No, but you might consider a comedic game to be a flawed game if you don't like comedic games. Of course, if you consider anything funny to be flawed because it's funny, you've got bigger problems than your choice of RPG. :-)

I think if your definition of 'flawed' contains everything that falls under the heading "things i don't like", it's your definition of 'flawed' that needs work (for a general 'your' and not you specifically, naturally.)

Meikle might be on something since they state it's 'perfect for Sci-Fi games' yet their tech information does not work as written.

hence, broken and in need of repair!

[Thufir Hawat]

You misunderstood what I said. The beam weapons are stated to cut through armor, but they barely bypass it. You did this on more then a few times. First I clearly state that the "highest TL Armors cannot be bypassed by the Highest TL weapons" and you mention TL6 which is completely irrelevant to what I'm talking about. Then you state I say beam weapons are the issue, when I have already said that the armor is. The creators gave incorrect information about the weapons to armor ratio, the strongest 20 pound beam weapon can't hardly touch the armor. I hope that clarify's what I was saying, since it seems that you keep misunderstanding my writing.

Meikle might be on something since they state it's 'perfect for Sci-Fi games' yet their tech information does not work as written.

Yes, I read your complaint as "they cut too easily through armour".
And well, if I had that kind of problem, I'd just tinker with the armour and weapons stats until I find stats that allow me to get the right amount of damage on a successful hit. Last time I had to do it, it took all of 5 minutes, which was hardly a notable problem.
Of course, it helped that I was using the "armour is rated in dice and it knocks off dice from your damage" optional rule ;).

Regardless, I think you have a case to complain on SJG forums if it didn't work as advertised. They love this kind of feedback and usually suggest solutions quite rapidly.

[Black Howling]

hence, broken and in need of repair!

Yeah, I didn't notice what you meant till I heard myself complaining about it. Perhaps I'm too forgiving on systems.

Yes, I read your complaint as "they cut too easily through armour".
And well, if I had that kind of problem, I'd just tinker with the armour and weapons stats until I find stats that allow me to get the right amount of damage on a successful hit. Last time I had to do it, it took all of 5 minutes, which was hardly a notable problem.
Of course, it helped that I was using the "armour is rated in dice and it knocks off dice from your damage" optional rule ;).

Regardless, I think you have a case to complain on SJG forums if it didn't work as advertised. They love this kind of feedback and usually suggest solutions quite rapidly.

I found a solution, but anytime I have to fix something it is indeed broken or at-least needs fiddling with. Fixing it took about 30 minutes, that may not seem like a long time, but that was thirty minutes I could have been gaming. So yeah, a flaw; most flaws like this are easily fixed. My point being, I find little things like this in all systems. Even my rules light systems often let people perform seemingly impossible tasks way too easily, or allow people to completely break the combat when they aren't even trying.

A little tweaking and it's fine. I only really toss a fit when it starts to take more effort then planning a full campaign to fix.

[Thufir Hawat]

I found a solution, but anytime I have to fix something it is indeed broken or at-least needs fiddling with. Fixing it took about 30 minutes, that may not seem like a long time, but that was thirty minutes I could have been gaming. So yeah, a flaw; most flaws like this are easily fixed. My point being, I find little things like this in all systems. Even my rules light systems often let people perform seemingly impossible tasks way too easily, or allow people to completely break the combat when they aren't even trying.

A little tweaking and it's fine. I only really toss a fit when it starts to take more effort then planning a full campaign to fix.

30 minutes is less than you're supposed to tinker with GURPS just to decide on the optional rules that fit the style of the campaign ;) .
But I guess I'm in the same boat with you, since I find such problems acceptable flaws. Now, if it would take me rewriting over 50% of the core rules to start a campaign, which I have done, I start calling it a glaring flaw ;D!
BTW, the only thing I was sorry during the campaign is that I stopped too soon and didn't rewrite all the subsystems >:)!
But yeah, all systems have some flaws, and sometimes they do things intentionally that you find to be a flaw. If a little tinkering solves the problem, it's fine, and tinkering is easy in a system like GURPS. It's a "toolkit" system, you're meant to tinker with it!
The problem is when you find a flaw in a tightly designed system 8-).

That said, how much time do you take to plan a campaign, and how much of this do you use on the system?

[Black Howling]

30 minutes is less than you're supposed to tinker with GURPS just to decide on the optional rules that fit the style of the campaign ;) .
But I guess I'm in the same boat with you, since I find such problems acceptable flaws. Now, if it would take me rewriting over 50% of the core rules to start a campaign, which I have done, I start calling it a glaring flaw ;D!
BTW, the only thing I was sorry during the campaign is that I stopped too soon and didn't rewrite all the subsystems >:)!
But yeah, all systems have some flaws, and sometimes they do things intentionally that you find to be a flaw. If a little tinkering solves the problem, it's fine, and tinkering is easy in a system like GURPS. It's a "toolkit" system, you're meant to tinker with it!
The problem is when you find a flaw in a tightly designed system 8-).

That said, how much time do you take to plan a campaign, and how much of this do you use on the system?

Not sure GURPS is any less tightly designed then other systems I play. Maybe WoD or Exalted are less so, but then I may be looking at it wrong. Or from a different prospective. I tend to do that. >_>

As for my campaigns. I usually take anywhere from an hour to six hours to make a campaign. It really depends on how much setting work and preparation I need to write up. If it's something from a setting I already have made up, and a campaign that I already have suitable antagonists and challenges from a previously designed campaign then it only takes 30 minutes to an hour. It only takes that long because I try and develop believable plot implements, and make the antagonists and challenges really fit.

Now, if I am making a setting from scratch and need to actually build it all.... That is harder to judge, since it changes depending on relative power level and epicness. I'd range it at about four hours, though I'm a very experienced GM and only need minimal time to create a whole campaign's worth of sessions in just a few hours.

There is a caveat to this though; and that's that I only make up what I am for sure gonna use based on the system, and any for sure story implements. Minor story only gets a footnote, and if it's just flavor with no system mechanics then I'll just remember it. No need to actually flesh it out on paper. Though I have a fairly good memory too. :-)

How long would you say it takes you, and how much of this do you use on the system?

[ExisD]

Hello all, I'm a rather big mechanics junkie and just noticed this thread.

On the time topic: Most of my GMing plan is world building and for lack of a better word flow charts. I tend to make sandboxes with plot hooks and derive my entire story from what the PCs did in previous sessions. Each plot hook also advances along at it's own rate and may come back. It tends to be a lot of pre-start of game planning, but only an hour of thought after each session.

On GURPS: This is one of my favorite systems over all and what I consider my best campaign was done using it. For high TL weapons and armor, the core book is rather bad about them from my experience. The Ultra Tech Book really helped in the regard with there being, in my mind, distinct tiers of weapons and armor separate from LC within each TL: concealable soft armor and pistols, soft armor and long arms, hard armor and military grade weapons, , power armor and heavy weapons. Where within each tier they're roughly balanced, but you can't go 2 tiers up or down and expect it to be useful. The core book has weapons in 1-3 and armor in 1, 2 and 4.

I also wanted to know if anyone else had played the new Warhammer Fantasy system. The campaign I was a part of lasted half way through the characters' second career and in that short a time this one has entered into my top 3 systems over all.

[Thufir Hawat]

Not sure GURPS is any less tightly designed then other systems I play. Maybe WoD or Exalted are less so, but then I may be looking at it wrong. Or from a different prospective. I tend to do that. >_>

It's possible we aren't using the same definitions.
GURPS is less tightly designed in the sense that there are elements you can switch on and off in different combinations, and editing them wouldn't impact the game to such an extent. Case in point, you can drop modern weapons in a TL3 setting with cinematic damage rules and expect a lighter game of time-travellers where modern technologies rule the day.
Now, try removing a couple of the conditions in D&D4e, and the daily-encounter-at will structure of powers, and you risk the system getting wildly unbalanced. That's an example of what I mean with tighter design. It's also much harder to edit.
WoD is also easy to fiddle with. With Exalted, you risk making something like the infamous Creation-slaying Oblivion kick combo possible, if you're not careful with your houserules, so I'd rank it as more tightly designed than GURPS. Mind you, "tight design" isn't always a compliment!
Maybe you just mean something else with "tight design" here? Happens all the time on Internet ;D!

As for my campaigns. I usually take anywhere from an hour to six hours to make a campaign. It really depends on how much setting work and preparation I need to write up. If it's something from a setting I already have made up, and a campaign that I already have suitable antagonists and challenges from a previously designed campaign then it only takes 30 minutes to an hour. It only takes that long because I try and develop believable plot implements, and make the antagonists and challenges really fit.

I was assuming a setting you know or have quick reference material handy, yes.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Now, if I am making a setting from scratch and need to actually build it all.... That is harder to judge, since it changes depending on relative power level and epicness. I'd range it at about four hours, though I'm a very experienced GM and only need minimal time to create a whole campaign's worth of sessions in just a few hours.

Thank you, although that wasn't what I meant.

There is a caveat to this though; and that's that I only make up what I am for sure gonna use based on the system, and any for sure story implements. Minor story only gets a footnote, and if it's just flavor with no system mechanics then I'll just remember it. No need to actually flesh it out on paper. Though I have a fairly good memory too. :-)

Same thing here, although I make more notes for PbP campaigns. They just last a lot longer.

How long would you say it takes you, and how much of this do you use on the system?

My approach mirrors yours to a significant extent, so the end results are similar, too. Maybe 30 minutes to jumpstart a campaign, given knowledge of the setting, and that's when I'm in the mood for preparing. Some of my rather successful sessions were ran after we picked a setting before the game by voting, so I had literally nothing pre-planned. Scribbled some notes for 5 minutes and off we went.
If I don't know the setting, I might need to double that time. More than 1 hour of preparation to start a campaign is something I just don't do.
Basically, I use maybe 20% of this time on the system, often less, although that doesn't include the time to read the system! The caveat is that opponents aren't suitable for the characters, they are just what makes sense to me, given the situation. Of course, the players might not have full access to the same information, especially if they didn't bother to gather intelligence >:)!

On the time topic: Most of my GMing plan is world building and for lack of a better word flow charts. I tend to make sandboxes with plot hooks and derive my entire story from what the PCs did in previous sessions. Each plot hook also advances along at it's own rate and may come back. It tends to be a lot of pre-start of game planning, but only an hour of thought after each session.

That's almost me, except for the pre-planning 8-)!

I also wanted to know if anyone else had played the new Warhammer Fantasy system. The campaign I was a part of lasted half way through the characters' second career and in that short a time this one has entered into my top 3 systems over all.

You mean the one with the special dice? Sorry, never tried it.
I mean, it has a rather significant buy-in, and I'm still to get an example of anything the special dice do that I couldn't replicate with some rather cheaper systems. I guess there is, but I refuse to invest until I've got a confirmation ;)!

[TheGlyphstone]

So, new topic:

Free RPGs. Played any? Your favorite? I just discovered Badass Presidents, and for all that it's more of a shell of a game system than an actual game, I want to play it so bad now.

[Black Howling]

It's possible we aren't using the same definitions.
GURPS is less tightly designed in the sense that there are elements you can switch on and off in different combinations, and editing them wouldn't impact the game to such an extent. Case in point, you can drop modern weapons in a TL3 setting with cinematic damage rules and expect a lighter game of time-travellers where modern technologies rule the day.
Now, try removing a couple of the conditions in D&D4e, and the daily-encounter-at will structure of powers, and you risk the system getting wildly unbalanced. That's an example of what I mean with tighter design. It's also much harder to edit.
WoD is also easy to fiddle with. With Exalted, you risk making something like the infamous Creation-slaying Oblivion kick combo possible, if you're not careful with your houserules, so I'd rank it as more tightly designed than GURPS. Mind you, "tight design" isn't always a compliment!

Yup, I was thinking on rules systems. Tighter designed, meaning that the rules were kinda etched in place. Your point makes much more sense now that I understood where you were coming from with it. I'd have to agree.

As for the other bits, I typically keep a lot of notes on my computer about PbP campaigns as well. I take minimal time because I hate making things I wont use, and try to avoid burnout as much as possible.

So, new topic:

Free RPGs. Played any? Your favorite? I just discovered Badass Presidents, and for all that it's more of a shell of a game system than an actual game, I want to play it so bad now.

I haven't seen many, though after checking out that link I'm surprisingly tempted...

[TheGlyphstone]

Yup, I was thinking on rules systems. Tighter designed, meaning that the rules were kinda etched in place. Your point makes much more sense now that I understood where you were coming from with it. I'd have to agree.

As for the other bits, I typically keep a lot of notes on my computer about PbP campaigns as well. I take minimal time because I hate making things I wont use, and try to avoid burnout as much as possible. I haven't seen many, though after checking out that link I'm surprisingly tempted...

I think this is how a typical game might play out...
http://www.idleidiots.com/zach/Tales%20from%20the%20Bully%20Pulpit/

[Thufir Hawat]

Yup, I was thinking on rules systems. Tighter designed, meaning that the rules were kinda etched in place. Your point makes much more sense now that I understood where you were coming from with it. I'd have to agree.

As for the other bits, I typically keep a lot of notes on my computer about PbP campaigns as well. I take minimal time because I hate making things I wont use, and try to avoid burnout as much as possible.

I see, it was a misunderstanding after all.

So, new topic:

Free RPGs. Played any? Your favorite? I just discovered Badass Presidents, and for all that it's more of a shell of a game system than an actual game, I want to play it so bad now.

Free RPGs are good >:)!
On a first glance, I've played Barbarians of Lemuria, GORE, Lady Blackbird, the 5X5 RPG and Compact Fate. Additionally, I was running The Riddle of Steel using the quickstart rules, which are rightly considered a game in themselves, although we decided the social system needs some improvement and switched it. I play in an Eclipse Phase game, which isn't exactly free, but it's under Creative Commons license. This means you can download it legally before purchasing it, and you only purchase it if you decide the authors actually deserve your money ;) . FWIW, I've purchased it.
I also have a fondness for Classic Unisystem's Witchcraft. The core rules are free on Drivethru RPG, although the supplements are paid. An often-neglected advantage of this system is that it can be played with dice, diceless, with cards, or with cards in a story mode where the players have a bit more control over the outcome.
And to top it off, I'm currently running Talislanta on this forum, which recently was made freely available recently with the author's permission ;D!
Did I mention I like free RPGs?

[Chris Brady]

One of my favorite settings is Lady Blackbird, also I love the Unisystem and wish they put out Beyond Human soon. I have Conspiracy X 2.0.  Love me some Barbarians of Lemuria, but I'm a huge sword and sorcery fan.

Speaking of which, I was turned onto this http://www.thalcos.com/rq.htm

It's a slightly unpolished game, but with a few tweaks, it works quite well for what it is.

[ExisD]

You mean the one with the special dice? Sorry, never tried it.
I mean, it has a rather significant buy-in, and I'm still to get an example of anything the special dice do that I couldn't replicate with some rather cheaper systems. I guess there is, but I refuse to invest until I've got a confirmation ;)!

The dice have a nice system for determining actions. Each one has a different profile and one of the really nice things is the stance system. You can replace attribute dice with stance dice, either conservative(very likely to succeed, but can also delay your action) or reckless(you might have bad things happen, but if you succeed you will succeed by a lot).

The other aspects of it that I really like are character advancement(each session a character gains one advance and typically characters grow in breadth before depth.) and the action system which makes a purely mental/social character not a complete combat liability due to leadership techniques or distraction actions.


I haven't actually played any non-homebrew free rpgs so I can't really comment there. Though the homebrew system games I've been a part of have been good for the most part.