Any Conservatives on E?

[Bayushi]

Your arrogant tone and constant denigrations are the reasons you've been targeted, Clown.  "Obama worshippers"?  Really?  It's like you think everyone who supports Obama is a mindless zombie, their unending masses drowning out your enlightened, "responsible" wisdom.

In many cases, they are mindless zombies. Not ALL, mind you.
Or... this isn't actually real:
Barack Obama Chant!

[Question Mark]

In many cases, they are mindless zombies. Not ALL, mind you.

Funny, I could say the same about the people who support Romney...

[OldSchoolGamer]

Funny, I could say the same about the people who support Romney...

The two-party system is all about conformity and doing what you're told.

[Callie Del Noire]

The two-party system is all about conformity and doing what you're told.

Only when about 20% of any party actually participates in the process. It's amazing how fast things can change on a district level when the locals get up in arms about things. Even on higher levels it occasionally happens but we've gotten apathetic about speaking up.

[Ironwolf85]

The two-party system is all about conformity and doing what you're told.

No it's not, the two party system evolved over time from the major rift between out founding fathers over how states should be represented, they eventually settled it with the Senate and House. but the rift remained, and eventually became the early political parties the Whigs and Federalists. over time Republicans replaced Whigs, democrats replaced federalists, then sometime during the large scale industrialization of america the two parties began to court diffrent demographics, and actually began to change their idology. Oddly Lincon who pretty much took the republican party from a third party to a main would not recognize it today.

I shouldn't be "lets take our country back" it should be "we need to take our party back"

Again I agree with Callie, for example in the beginning almost nobody expected Barack to win, yet he used his chrisma to galvinize the younger generation who had been ignored, and mistreated by republican politicans & policies for years, he got them to support him. This is the reason they turned out in droves.

The problem is, electorally speaking, and I speak for myself too. Romney can't do the same, many under 30 were raised in a world defined by gorden geko's idea of finance and Bush's Policies, and have seen it collapse. The cold war campain tactics of "Big Scary Socialism" doesn't scare them, nor do they have a love affair with Ronny Regan.
To top things off, they are internet savvy, and can look up facts and opinions without the filter of Fox, MSNBC, or any other major news network, so network spin doctoring or skewed reporting, and trying to tell them what their opinions should be ultimately fails.
They have drifted to the far right, then relied on biligerence, bile, and cold war campain tactics to try and unseat Barack. The Republican party has pretty much alienated the younger voters, both Liberals and Conservatives by doing that.


sorry I got ranty there.
But the point is obama knew how to appeal to younger voters, and showed he had a pair of nuts to stand up on many issues they cared about. Now many still support him, but are more ambivilent about it as he's lost his edge.
This is somthing romney has not, and can not do.
Part of the reason I'm voting for Barack is that Mitt will in all likelyhood alienate another generation, and that will pretty much destroy the already ignored Moderate wing of the Republican Party.

[Serephino]

This is true.  I wasn't alive when Reagan was President I don't think.  What I did see was we went from a surplus under Clinton to a crushing deficit under Bush Jr.  When Bush Jr. needed the debt ceiling raised it was no issue.  When he wanted funding for his war mongering there was no issue.  Obama needed it raised and all of a sudden Tea Party morons are screaming for the government to be shut down.  It's hypocrisy. 

[OldSchoolGamer]

This is true.  I wasn't alive when Reagan was President I don't think.  What I did see was we went from a surplus under Clinton to a crushing deficit under Bush Jr.  When Bush Jr. needed the debt ceiling raised it was no issue.  When he wanted funding for his war mongering there was no issue.  Obama needed it raised and all of a sudden Tea Party morons are screaming for the government to be shut down.  It's hypocrisy. 

This.

Every time it's a tax break for oil companies, or more wars overseas, or tax cuts for the rich, there's no deficit.

But when we need to extend unemployment benefits, or a Social Security payroll tax holiday, or anyone talks about spending on infrastructure to put people back to work
ZOMG!!!1!! LOOK AT THE GINORMOUS DEFICIT! YOU'RE MORTGAGING OUR KIDS' FUTURES YOU LIBERAL WASTRELS! THINK OF THE CHILDREN!!1!!

It is hypocrisy, and rather foul hypocrisy at that.  It's why I no longer take the GOP seriously when they talk about the deficit.

[Ironwolf85]

That is exactly my point. That is exactly what every person born from the 80's onward has seen and remembers.
The GOP rather than reforming itself to be in line with the current, and upcoming, generation of conservitives, has chosen to isolate itself idologically and rely on support from a colition of Old Money companies, grass roots diehard reganites (my old man is here), and religious & far right fundies.
Because of this younger conservitives have turned away as the party abandoned them, and are walking in droves to the other party, dragging them towards the center.

If this current trend continues, which it likely will if romney is elected, and they keep trying to rely on that colition, then judging from american history unless the end of the world comes it is likely a new faction from within either the center or the old guard of the democratic party will fracture off becoming a new party of conservitives to replace the far weakened republicans who have alienated multiple generations of americans, therefore have little new blood, and little power.

History is fluid like that.

[Question Mark]

ITT: Conservatives bashing conservativism.

*eats popcorn*

[Callie Del Noire]

ITT: Conservatives bashing conservativism.

*eats popcorn*

Play nice.. I behave when the Democrats fight among themselves.

Basically what is going on is the the old codgers who got in after Nixon's cadre of people imploded in the wake of Watergate don't want to let the next generation and take the help. And won't till the drop dead.

[Question Mark]

Play nice.. I behave when the Democrats fight among themselves.

I was just making an observation dude.  I've actually learned a lot by following this thread.  It's always good to see how the other side thinks (entertaining too!)

[Callie Del Noire]

I'll be honest, I learned a LOT about the 'behind the curtain' operations of the GOP when my brother ran for office. The fact that he went for an office higher up the food chain than the folks who wanted him too put him in direct conflict with the state leadership.

It was very enlightening and very depressing.

[OldSchoolGamer]

There's so much corporate money in the system now I don't even think generational and ideological conflicts matter much.  You can disagree with me on the idea of a super-rich cabal running the show, but I think you'd have a hard time finding where the nose of the GOP ends and the asses of the big corporations begin, nevertheless.

[Serephino]

I saw that McCain girl (John McCain's daughter, can't remember her first name) on a few talk shows talking about this very issue.  She is a Republican that admits her party is driving away the younger voters.  She also would very much like those antiqued policies to change, but unlike her, I don't see any of her ideas happening until the party hits rock bottom, and maybe not even then.  Knowing them they'll blame liberals for pulling some kind of dirty trick...  They're already saying that the polls showing Obama in the lead at the moment are fixed, but when Romney was a little bit ahead they were accurate.  *headdesk*

[Callie Del Noire]

I saw that McCain girl (John McCain's daughter, can't remember her first name) on a few talk shows talking about this very issue.  She is a Republican that admits her party is driving away the younger voters.  She also would very much like those antiqued policies to change, but unlike her, I don't see any of her ideas happening until the party hits rock bottom, and maybe not even then.  Knowing them they'll blame liberals for pulling some kind of dirty trick...  They're already saying that the polls showing Obama in the lead at the moment are fixed, but when Romney was a little bit ahead they were accurate.  *headdesk*

Well given her father and her own personal heritage, I am quite sure they (the GOP leadership) don't like her that much. It's amazing how they (the leadership) continue to sneer at the modern conservatives and moderates who aren't into social conservatism, they WILL lose big sooner or later because their dalliance with the Double High Authoritarians, Religous Right and Tea party will eventually crack up. Their goals don't ALL exactly align and sooner or later one group will move on another.

[elone]

That is exactly my point. That is exactly what every person born from the 80's onward has seen and remembers.
The GOP rather than reforming itself to be in line with the current, and upcoming, generation of conservitives, has chosen to isolate itself idologically and rely on support from a colition of Old Money companies, grass roots diehard reganites (my old man is here), and religious & far right fundies.
Because of this younger conservitives have turned away as the party abandoned them, and are walking in droves to the other party, dragging them towards the center.

If this current trend continues, which it likely will if romney is elected, and they keep trying to rely on that colition, then judging from american history unless the end of the world comes it is likely a new faction from within either the center or the old guard of the democratic party will fracture off becoming a new party of conservitives to replace the far weakened republicans who have alienated multiple generations of americans, therefore have little new blood, and little power.

History is fluid like that.

This is fairly interesting and raises a question. If the old guard republicans go away, who is left? That is to say, who would the republican party represent if the very conservatives go away? I could see these "new republicans" being perhaps a fiscal conservative group with a social conscience joining with conservative democrats who oppose some of the party's most liberal wing. This might result in a republican party that moves centrist while the democrats move more left

I think that many independents are in that mode now, for them either party is too extreme in one direction or the other. The time may be right for a real third party somewhere between the two we have now. The problem with that is bucking the old system, but if a strong leader emerges, the internet would go a long way to getting that information out there.

An interesting article, long though, on why politicians and their campaigns lie and get away with it.

http://swampland.time.com/2012/10/03/blue-truth-red-truth/

[Callie Del Noire]

This is fairly interesting and raises a question. If the old guard republicans go away, who is left? That is to say, who would the republican party represent if the very conservatives go away? I could see these "new republicans" being perhaps a fiscal conservative group with a social conscience joining with conservative democrats who oppose some of the party's most liberal wing. This might result in a republican party that moves centrist while the democrats move more left

I think that many independents are in that mode now, for them either party is too extreme in one direction or the other. The time may be right for a real third party somewhere between the two we have now. The problem with that is bucking the old system, but if a strong leader emerges, the internet would go a long way to getting that information out there.

An interesting article, long though, on why politicians and their campaigns lie and get away with it.

http://swampland.time.com/2012/10/03/blue-truth-red-truth/

It's a nice idea Elone, the problem is I don't see either side's moderates having a chance if they dont' find a leader(s) to step forward and forge them into a force that could make things like that happen.

Neither party, particularly the extreme elements, wants a third centrist part to step up and form. It would cut into the 'low upkeep' segments taht either part courts for an edge (but not too hard)

[elone]

It's a nice idea Elone, the problem is I don't see either side's moderates having a chance if they dont' find a leader(s) to step forward and forge them into a force that could make things like that happen.

Neither party, particularly the extreme elements, wants a third centrist part to step up and form. It would cut into the 'low upkeep' segments taht either part courts for an edge (but not too hard)

I guess this is getting off topic for this thread, but isn't that the problem with both parties, that they pander to extreme elements, thus trying to draw a line between them and the other. Just for arguments sake, if say 25% of republicans are far right and 25% of democrats are far left, doesn't that leave 50% somewhere in the middle who could be attracted to a third party. (just threw those numbers out, I have no actual idea how people identify themselves within the parties). Surely there is a well know centrist out there who could garner support from a third party.

[Ironwolf85]

it's about Conservatives on E, it just didn't become the echo room the creator wanted.

also the problem is no center figure has come forth yet. though I figure if obama looses, he will drop off the radiar for a while, and then go for it if the democrats won't have him back.

[Stattick]

My issue with the Democrat party is that they continue to act more and more like the CPUSA (Communist Party USA). While liking communism is fine and all (differing opinions being just that), forcing that ideology on a nation founded to the exact opposite is not going to go over well. Especially when it starts leading towards the economic malaise that we have now.

Communism didn't exist when we formed this nation. The founding fathers were fighting against an entrenched aristocracy... like the communists that came later.

I subsist on SSI now that I am disabled, though I would prefer to be able to work.

Well thank God for what socialism we do have in this country. Otherwise you wouldn't be getting anything from the government, and you'd probably have to beg for a living. And that just wouldn't be right.

[Stattick]

In many cases, they are mindless zombies. Not ALL, mind you.

Well, that's disingenuous. That's the sort of thing you see in all sorts of gatherings when a group of like minded individuals get together. Sorta like how you'll be sitting there in the stadium during baseball game, and then everyone starts chanting.

[Stattick]

He also called him a bitch, to be fair.

Well, no I didn't, but I did come awfully close to it. I posted in anger, which I shouldn't have done. I think it's plain to see that I do not like Dark Clown. I don't like how he argues. I don't like how he lashes out and attacks people. I don't like how he attacks different ideologies than his own in the most extreme verbiage he can muster, calling people in the other party traitors and so forth. And, truthfully, I just plain don't like him, not one bit. But I let him get under my skin, and then I resorted to some of those same arguing tactics that he so enjoys to employ. An hour after I posted last night, when I was lying there in bed trying to sleep, I honestly thought that I'd wake up to find myself in trouble with the staff. It still could happen... or maybe we'll both catch a ban for it. It takes two to tango.

I'm not apologizing for my words; they came straight from the heart. I'm apologizing for my behavior. The proper thing for me to have done, was to hold back my bile and anger, and shot off a report to staff to ask them to remove Dark Clown from Politics and Religion and the site. From there, it would have been their decision as to whether it was actionable. Instead, I shot off my mouth and tied myself to Dark Clown with the same transgressions.

What I will apologize for is my use of the word bitch. As a curse word (as opposed to its usage as a word for a female canine), it's misogynistic and offensive. It's not a word I typically use. The way I used it, by saying that Dark Clown was acting "like a bitch" is just as problematic. It's implying that there's something intrinsically wrong with being a woman, which is something that I vehemently disagree with. The only reason I used that term, is because my impression is that Dark Clown is sexist. I don't have any evidence that he is, it's just my gut feeling. I thought that implying that he's feminine would push his buttons. It's something I shouldn't have done, both because of the offensiveness of implying that women are inferior, and because I posted in the spirit of trying to pick a fight.

So, let me take the opportunity to directly apologize to the community for acting badly. Now I'm going to go and turn myself in by reporting Dark Clown's post, my response to it, and this post in which I plainly confessed to trolling. Regardless of what happens to Dark Clown, I do expect that I'll be castrated for it. And, you know, I was trolling. I deserve what I get.

[Mithlomwen]

*peeks in with a staffly reminder* 

So here's the thing.....

The subjects discussed in this forum are controversial by nature.  There are people here, on both sides of an issue, that have very strong feelings regarding their views.  There is nothing wrong with that. 

What everyone should keep in mind is that there is a person on the other side of the screen.  You may not agree with them.  You may not like their views.  Hell, you may even dislike them.  The thing to keep in mind is, you can disagree with someone, and still be respectful about it. 

Broad generalizing statements, derogatory remarks, lumping everyone with a similar view into the same category is not the way to do that.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but everyone should keep in mind that no one likes to be insulted for their views and opinions. 

Sometimes it's just best to agree to disagree and move on.   

[Mr Self Destruct]

Thanks Mithy, and good point.

And Stattick, I personally don't care if you like me or not. The way I see it, thats your problem, not mine. No, I'm not sexist, and how you could even come about that conclusion confuses me.

And personally, I have nothing against you either. You're not the first person to lash out at me for my difference of opinion. You prolly won't be the last, either. Because my belief in personal responsibility and self-sufficience isn't a popular one in a world used to taking hand outs.

[Callie Del Noire]

Thanks Mithy, and good point.

And Stattick, I personally don't care if you like me or not. The way I see it, thats your problem, not mine. No, I'm not sexist, and how you could even come about that conclusion confuses me.

And personally, I have nothing against you either. You're not the first person to lash out at me for my difference of opinion. You prolly won't be the last, either. Because my belief in personal responsibility and self-sufficience isn't a popular one in a world used to taking hand outs.

No it's most likely for the off handed insults you hand out over a persons difference of opinion. The passive aggressive tone doesn't help at all in keeping people in topic and lashing out.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, you don't have to LIKE their opinions (and neither do they have to like yours).. you should respect them. What you might consider a 'handout' can be something they need to get a foot up in life. Is my disability earned from 15 years service a handout? According to some it is.

Consider your point of view is only one angle on the issue.