Beyond Two Souls [Spoiler tags please!]

[Inari]

Since this was announced at E3 two years ago waited and now I finally have it and have been playing it. (5 hours and counting!) So far I am finding it very interesting indeed although as I have played it the other half has read a few reviews out to me that have basically panned it. I really don't understand what their problem is to be honest. Although the main issue seems to be the way the story is told and the fact it is quick time heavy. Both of these points were raised at the damn E3 conference... I guess I was the only one awake when Beyond Two Souls was introduced to us for the first time. =/

This game is a psychological thriller and mostly relies on quick time events just like in it's predecessors Fahrenheit (Indigo Prophecy) and Heavy Rain. The story telling is done in a rather unique way to say the least and the graphics are simply amazing. It is also a muti-outcome game, so pretty much everything you do has a influence. While it holds your hand at first it then heavily relies on the audience to pay attention to all the hard work the creators put into it to truly get the fullest experience.

So far I have been enjoying travelling to different points in Jodie's life and controlling Aiden. (Although he can be fiddly.) The battle scenes with other world monsters are simply beautiful... something I never thought I would ever say about an intense fight. I have also been enjoying the music score which has definitely added to the atmosphere of the game.

All in all I am really enjoying playing this game and seriously don't understand the problems people are claiming to be wrong with it. Unlike a lot of games these days this one has the hallmarks that the creators actually cared about what they were making.

Anyway, enough from me. What do you guys think of it?

[Shjade]

The PC port's pretty terrible. Unplayable, in fact.

[Sabby]

There's a PC port? Whats wrong with it? o.o

[SinXAzgard21]

There is no PC port.

[Inari]

I think he was thinking of Dark Souls. To my understanding it has been patched it works fine now.

[Chris Brady]

Fan patched at first.  Off topic.

I've tried the demo of David Cages latest 'work', and frankly, it's just as bad as Heavy Rain was.  A Quick Time Event fest, with little to no actual interaction with the characters.

Worse, I feel hypocritical about it.  I mean, I LIKE QTE's when done well.  God of War, in MY opinion has some of the best in the gaming industry.  And I actually like 'scripted' characters, because I find that the silent protagonists doesn't really work outside of the old 16 bit era RPGs (And only Chrono Trigger and the various Breath of Fires did it well enough for me) because I find that the other NPCs talk AT you, rather than WITH you.  But with this?  It's...  I came in with an open mind, at least, I hope I did.  I'd like to think I did...  I just... Can't like it.  I'm trying, but it's...  Dull.

[Inari]

My other half corrected me after I made the post and it is sad that it had to be fan patched. D:

The thing all of their games have been quick time event ones. (Apart from Omikron The Nomad Soul) The best way to describe this is it is an interactive movie that requires the players attention to detail. I would say unless you want to play a game that pulls someone in with the story and has no real work then don't bother with it. I am really enjoying it.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

They class my Aiden as an possessive, unforgiving, violent entity because of my actions in the game so far. I also enjoyed trolling myself. XD

[Shjade]

There's a PC port? Whats wrong with it? o.o

There isn't one. Thus its unplayability.

[Sasquatch421]

I'm enjoying it myself and I love the fact they brought Willem Dafoe in on it... The birthday party is still my favorite part so far. I know it's not everybody's cup of tea, but I'm one of the few anymore that prefer story.

[Chris Brady]

Actually, I've heard that the party is the best part of the game.  The rest sort of...  Peters out.  Then again, what do I know, all I tried was the demo.  So I could be very wrong.

[Inari]

I tried the two player with a friend. I downloaded the app for my Android... at first it was fun but after a while it stopped working. Luckily we have a special connector so I could play it with the 360 controller (our other PS3 controller is broken) and for the time we played it it was hella fun. I knew what was going to happen and was cooking dinner while my friend played as Jodie and I played as Aiden. Once she was at the party I heard her yell "Wha... those fucking wankers!" I then ran to her side got her out and asked what she wanted... revenge it was! I ended up knocking them all out... though I am wishing I stabbed one of them and burned down the house instead. D:

[I dont know]

Good movie, bad game.

I really enjoy the story and graphics, but the gameplay is so limited. You can't control your character in fights and while driving.

[Sabby]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=im7ZegcoJLM

My opinion of David Cage.

[Chris Brady]

"David Cage has mistaken holding his dick in his hands for having his finger on the pulse of the video game industry." Troy Baker, Voice Actor, latest known role, Joker in Batman:Arkham Origins.

[Suiko]

I enjoyed Heavy Rain and I'm enjoying Beyond, but I'm not kidding myself into thinking they're games.

I'm enjoying them as interactive movies, and I'm getting a bit more out of Beyond because me and a friend can 'play' it together. The characters are pretty fun, the story is interesting enough that I'm enjoying nyself... but I wish I hadn't spent £35 on it.

Also there is no doubt that David Cage is an idiot, but still. Hehe.

[Chris Brady]

Ellen Page and Willem Defoe are very well written, the problem is that the rest of the characters are not.  That's jarring.

[Suiko]

There's not enough Defoe so far for my liking. He's brilliant.

[Koren]

I think the problem that people are having, is that they are thinking about it specifically within the very restrictive confines of the stereotypical definition of a VIDEO GAME

Its not. Its an experience. Just like heavy rain is. And personally, I hated heavy rain, but I understood what it tried to do and I appreciated the fact that they tried it and that they were willing to broach the topics in the way that they did.

But honestly, at least you can see that they have learnt going from Heavy Rain to Beyond: Two Souls.
The controls are updated and for the most part improved, as is the level of interactivity.
And if nothing else, Beyond: Two Souls does an amazing job of broaching topics that not games, or films, or anything really get near breeching so easily and publicly, such as homelessness, and powerlessness and even abandonment.
I do think that it messes up in the fact that the timeline isnt linear, and while that serves it in some parts, as its interesting to go back and see where things went wrong, in other parts it does break the tension. I do think in part this was aided by the fact though that people didnt realise that before each chapter you get shown a timeline of her life and it shows where the current chapter lies.

And please, do not start hating on David Cage. I will be the first to admit that there are a lot of egotistical idiots out there who are making games because they think its cool, and just want to give it a shot, but really, game design is an art, and a damn difficult one at that, and its hard enough being involved in that industry without every consumer who doesn't understand or fully enjoy a game jumping on you every time they can, and when you are still developing or even trying something new.

And personally, I really dont understand the hate for this game when The Last of Us which had far more broken mechanics and story, even if its controls were smoother, got so much love where it was pretty much just a bundles of cliches that you can see a mile off.

Im sorry for the mini rant, but its really starting to bug me how much people, especially indies, get attacked for TRYING something new, over and over.

[Hemingway]

I love it. What's more, my girlfriend loves watching me play it, for the story and occasionally to shout out "KISS!! MAKE THEM KISS!!" ( think internet meme )

I'd have to say the winter bit of the game was especially good, and powerful, too. It's something I think a lot of people would benefit from seeing.

It's also got far fewer QTEs than Heavy Rain. And if that somehow makes it less of a 'game', then you're missing the point.

[Chris Brady]

I think the problem that people are having, is that they are thinking about it specifically within the very restrictive confines of the stereotypical definition of a VIDEO GAME

This argument always gets a WTF??? from me.  'Stereotypical'?  Seriously?  A game is pretty well defined, and this 'game' skirts the wrong side of the line.

Im sorry for the mini rant, but its really starting to bug me how much people, especially indies, get attacked for TRYING something new, over and over.

Night Trap wants to have a word with Mr. Cage, then.  It wants it's 'gameplay' back.  Oh, and Dragon's Lair is also asking for a cease and desist.  This is not new, just underused.  And for good reason.  (And for the record, I LIKE QTEs, when done well.)

Mr. Cage is NOT trying anything new.  In fact, the man's obsession with photorealism brings his own games down.  See, there are two parts to a stereotypical video game, the graphics and the actual engine.  And the sad part of it is, if you focus on one, the other suffers.  A good game balances requires both, which means it's not quite as pretty to look at.  Thing is, the other half, the hidden half, AI, physics, collision detection and all things that make a game fun, that takes up the rest of the space, but you can't have both being super awesome, either you focus on one, or the other.  Or you make a decent looking game, with fun gameplay.

Nintendo games, for a while, focused mainly on gameplay, so the graphics tend not to be as good as they 'could' be, but the games were fun.  On the flip side, Square Enix has always made some really pretty games for the console, but really, most of their older RPGs, like FF7 to 10, it was 'push the button, watch the animation', which is enjoyable, but not very deep (arguably, you could say the story was part of the draw, but...  YMMV on that, people have differing views on what's a good story.)

Of his recent work, Mr. Cage is more the Square Enix side of it, making vapid, but pretty games that some people praise as 'innovative' when in reality we've had (and quite a few people, revile) Quick Time Events for decades.  In fact, we've had them longer than people want to believe (Like 1984 ish with Don Bluth's Dragon's Lair and Space Ace.)

Also, Mr. Cage has had Sony's backing for years, he's no 'struggling indie developer' trying to make a fair buck, he's (a self mentioned) disgruntled wannabe movie director who believes his stories are more interesting than they are.  There is no 'starting to hate' here, I've disliked the man's pretentious attitude for a very, very long while.  And I keep giving him some slack maybe he'll get better, he'll improve, and every time, he keeps disappointing me.

Really, as someone on the 'net mentioned, He and Kojima should just sit down together and make the movie they've always wanted and get it out of their system.

[Hemingway]

I can understand not appreciating the gameplay of Beyond and Heavy Rain, but the story? I mean, sure, if you're upset because you think the game trying to be smart and this somehow offends you, sure. But that doesn't change the fact they have better written and acted stories than most games on the market.

Also, where does the Kojima reference come from? I know Metal Gear has long cut scenes, since it's my favorite series of games. But they serve a purpose - a purpose that the 15 second cutscenes in games like Call of Duty really can't serve - and they're far from as "bad" as people seem to want them to be. Frankly, you seem to be confusing storytelling with lacking quality.

[Chris Brady]

Given that Kojima's recent games have had 8-20 minute cutscenes?  Yeah.  No.  He's obviously wanting to tell a story, and the game gets in the way.  Off topic, and I'm ending my side here.

As for Mr. Cage's 'story writing', the fact of the matter is the only woman character, Madison Paige is mostly used as rape bait or abused in some way.  Even the romance scene was incredibly onesided.  And for Two Souls, the only characters that feel 'believable' are Ellen Page's and Willem Defoe's, every other character are cardboard cut outs, which make it hard to actually get into the story, because it's jarring at how ridiculously flat every other character around them feel.

Call of Duty has it's own issues.  Like actually trying to do a Single Player campaign, that isn't just a pure tutorial, odds are you're there for the multiplayer and nothing else.

[Hemingway]

Yeah.  No.  He's obviously wanting to tell a story, and the game gets in the way.

I think this is the source of the confusion.

Games can do both.

[Chris Brady]

I think this is the source of the confusion.

Games can do both.

Yes, and most that do, aren't very popular, have complaints against them for it.  Metal Gear 4 is often cited has having cutscenes too long.  Not to mention that the original Xenogears, a lot of people loved the first disk, the problem is the second, with it's several 30 minute expositions.  People love those games, just wish those cut scenes weren't so long.

The issue with the last two David Cage projects is they a bunch of tiered cutscenes that barely allow you to do anything with.  It's nice for the multiple endings, I wish games would do this more, especially RPGs, but I also like to be given the illusion of control, Mr. Cage's don't even allow you that luxury.

[Hemingway]

Which is why it's wrong to compare those games, to more conventional games.

That doesn't make them bad, though.

[Chris Brady]

Not saying they're bad.  I'm saying Mr. Cage's games have proven to me to be 'bad'.  At the same time, they're not anything innovative, rather restrictive.

[Koren]

Im going to point a couple of things out quickly. One of which is that I am a Game Dev so please do not talk to me like I have no idea whats going on. I do. I'm not like the idiots I went to uni with who thought that because they played games they understood everything and every idea of theres was good and they knew what they were doing just because they called themselves Game Developers. I don't think like that at all. But I do have a lot of background knowledge here and a far deeper understanding of the game development process and even the academic understanding of games as well.

This argument always gets a WTF??? from me.  'Stereotypical'?  Seriously?  A game is pretty well defined, and this 'game' skirts the wrong side of the line.

If you want to go there, a game is defined in its broadest terms as an INTERACTIVE EXPERIANCE. There is no definition about the level of interaction, or the mechanics needed for it or anything else. Interactive movies are technically games is you go with the most accurate description of what a game is. And obviously there are blurred lines there about how far the term interactive covers.

I mean, you interact with your coffee machine but that doesn't make it a game, so we can go back and tighten the definition more to say that perhaps a game is only a game when its interactivity is put within a set of rules in a virtual of physical world designed to provide a specific experience.
And obviously I could go for hours looking at the technical specifications of terms and trying to get descriptions up, but in all my time at uni, talking with people who worked on games like Star Wars The Force Unleashed through to Jetpack Joyride and even people who make flash games for a living, along with academics who constantly are researching this idea of "What is a game" and after reading the dozens of game design books which constantly look at the idea and work on it, the one thing everyone can agree on is that is its an 'interactive experience' and there is no limit on how that interaction has to be, but beyond that no one I've spoken to has been able to concisely define and constrict a game to a specific set of words, and if they do, other academics rarely agree with them 100%

As far as Ive played in Beyond Two Souls, it was no more true cutscenes then a normal game (cutscenes being where you are just watching and dont have your hands on the controller) and just because the gameplay is scripted and minimalistic (and far less QTE based the heavy rain) doesnt meant it isn't still gameplay.

Mr. Cage is NOT trying anything new.  In fact, the man's obsession with photorealism brings his own games down.  See, there are two parts to a stereotypical video game, the graphics and the actual engine.  And the sad part of it is, if you focus on one, the other suffers.  A good game balances requires both, which means it's not quite as pretty to look at.  Thing is, the other half, the hidden half, AI, physics, collision detection and all things that make a game fun, that takes up the rest of the space, but you can't have both being super awesome, either you focus on one, or the other.  Or you make a decent looking game, with fun gameplay.

Also I hate to say it, but while I love the fact that more people outside of the dev community are starting to understand how a game is put together, this isn't right.
Wheres the design component? What you mentioned as the engine stuff, the AI, collision detection, physics etc, they do NOT make a game fun, not at all. They are the technical components that make it functional.
The THREE parts of a good game go into Design, Aesthetics, and Technical. The aesthetics are the graphics as mentioned, but also the feel of the game, the way a game absorbs the player and how the space around the player conveys a feeling or a presence. The Technical is the engine and programming stuff, and is just making the game functional, bug free.
The design is where the rest of the game falls. Design covers everything from how the player should move around in the world, all of the interactivity and how the player is going to understand the world, through to what the levels are, map design, what the AI should act like, and even story elements like a scriptwriter etc.

It can be broken down a lot more then that as well but if you want broad categories, its important to recognize that third. And no category is more important then another, and just because one category is good, DOESN'T mean that another has to suffer, not at all. That is a DESIGN decision as to what gets developed how and where, and I garentee in every game you've ever played, how 'photo realistic' a game looks, or how 'cartoony', and how full on the interaction is, that is a conscious choice made through months if not years of development
And if you want to go deeper there is then a fourth and actually potentially the most important category, QA. Without testing you can release a game you think is great, only to realize its full of bugs and no one understands what to do with it.


Now with that in mind going back to Beyond Two Souls, it definitely fits into the definition of a game, even if it doesn't feel that way.
People have lately had the idea that games have to be fun, but when you look at a lot of games, and why people play them, they don't play them for 'fun', and really, what does 'fun' even mean anyway? I've never heard The Last of Us described as a fun game, but that got rave reviews (which I strongly disagree with to an amazing degree, but thats for another topic)

And the part that is mostly lacking with Beyond is a lot of testing of design. They clearly tested the technical and aesthetic aspects of the game, I cant say I've ever seen a popping texture, or a collision bugging out, or other things like that, although I'm sure its happened for someone, it happens in every game, but I'm quite happy to say that while their design goal and approach was solid, they didn't realize that it made less sense to those outside of the office, or people who weren't testing it every other day. Things like people not realizing there is a timeline. The fact that Jodie's animations at some points are almost completely unreadable to figure out how to make her move. The fact that the choices seem insignificant which again goes into the fact of the messy timeline.
Id actually love to get my hands on one of the early prototypes for the game, and the QA notes and see how it developed really to see if they were smart enough to adjust their design goal from the early stages to release because of playability. I garentee that it would have been an INCREDIBLY different game.

[Chris Brady]

I was talking how games affects hardware, like GPUs and Processors.  There are two parts, the visual and the technical, under the hood, physics, control systems, AI that sort of stuff.  I know nothing of how to make a game, just how they affect the hardware.  Mr. Cage seems to really only care about the visual, which means that his under the hood stuff suffers.  Like the gameplay.  If you focus on one, the other suffers, especially in the limited hardware available in a console.

A game has a win condition and fail states.  BTS barely has either.  But I'll grant that it does have them.  Unlike another, truly indie game, Dear Esther, which is more of a carnival ride, than a 'game'.  So I'll retract any inference that BTS is not a game, and instead say that I found it severely lacking in the game play department.

[Koren]

I was talking how games affects hardware, like GPUs and Processors.  There are two parts, the visual and the technical, under the hood, physics, control systems, AI that sort of stuff.  I know nothing of how to make a game, just how they affect the hardware.  Mr. Cage seems to really only care about the visual, which means that his under the hood stuff suffers.  Like the gameplay.  If you focus on one, the other suffers, especially in the limited hardware available in a console.

A game has a win condition and fail states.  BTS barely has either.  But I'll grant that it does have them.  Unlike another, truly indie game, Dear Esther, which is more of a carnival ride, than a 'game'.  So I'll retract any inference that BTS is not a game, and instead say that I found it severely lacking in the game play department.

Okay I can understand how the confusion happened there between the computer processing and the development of a game and their parts.
But like I said, I think that you'll find that the gameplay doesn't suffer because of the visual, it is just that it was designed that way. One of the core things of actually making a game is prototype, and the earliest prototype game devs do is a greybox, that is literally what it sounds like. You play as a shape, in a world of shapes, and you have all the playability of the game components you are testing, all of the game mechanics etc, but with no aesthetics. The design of the mechanics and the controls and interactivity gets started on far before aesthetic is even thought about, in a lot of cases before even story.
Yes a lot of it is in how they are going to use the processing power of the engine, but the actual mechanics do not suffer because of high quality graphics, the two sides don't impact each other like that. Look at God of War 3 for example. That game looks amazing, and because of reflections and shaders etc, probably, actualy i would say definitely after remembering the opening scene, uses more processing for graphics then beyond two souls as a lot of the aesthetics is illusion based in that game, but its mechanics are a lot more involved.

Dear Esther is actually not what I would concider a game because you don't interact with it. You exist in the world of it, but there is no interactivity at all, you may as well be looking at the map in a 3D modelling program, rather then have it in engine. That game actually made me rage quit because it was so boring and the map was so badly designed.

The idea of win and fail states is a very iffy thing though, especially with indie games which don't always have the same sort of 'boss fights' and that sort of stuff that have definite win and loss conditions within them, and many don't even have things like health etc.
Like Journey. I don't think I've met anyone that has argued that that isn't a game, but there is no way to loose at it.

[Chris Brady]

Actually, although I personally found Journey dull, you can lose.  Loss does not have to be 'death'.  It might mean certain avenues are closed off or the game becomes harder to finish the goal, but even Journey has a Fail State.

[Koren]

I know that loss doesn't mean death. Again, I'm a game designer, I have designed a lot of games that don't have win and loss as victory and defeat, but I personally don't see a fail state in journey because no matter what you can always get to the mountain. What do you think it is?

[Sabby]

Oh my... such delicious controversy.

Apparently, Ellen Page was fully modelled for her shower scene in the game. Even though your not supposed to see below the neck, there's a whole body there, with all the things and stuff.

It gets worse.

Hackers have gotten a hold of that 3D model. Now anyone can just incorporate it in their Source Filmaker projects.

It gets worser.

SFM has a pretty active 3D porn scene.

Cease and desists are flying everywhere, but there's no undoing this... the next few weeks are going to be very interesting.

[Suiko]

I thought it wasn't her body model - just one added on to her face. It's still a bit embarrassing for her but I'm not sure what Sony can do about it since its all over the Internet.

[Sabby]

Considering she has a body in the game, I'd say they just added the details to it, so it's going to be almost identical. I'm just confused as to why... but then I find out David Cage had a scrap book of her pictures that he was making for a year before he finally showed her.

[Suiko]

Wooah... that... seems a bit off <<

[Sabby]

It's kind of sweet, in a creepy stalker-masquerading-as-business-associate kind of way :3

[Suiko]

*snerks*

In a way <<

[Chris Brady]

I thought it wasn't her body model - just one added on to her face. It's still a bit embarrassing for her but I'm not sure what Sony can do about it since its all over the Internet.

It wasn't.

[Sabby]

Wow, this game looks like garbage >.< I finished his first two games, will not be playing this one.

Edit: After watching some more of it on Youtube, I really think this is Cage's worst game yet. His games aren't as linear as people say they are. Both Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain had fairly decent branching paths and consequences, even if they didn't go beyond the current chapter. There were multiple ways you could lose at something, and half the time you'd get a game over screen after a few failed attempts, but some times there actually was a few different ways to approach it with varying outcomes.

This, however, is just find all the buttons. It reminds me of one of those old PC games when I was a kid, where you just found all the things you could click in the picture, but you actually need to find them all to win, and they are GLOWING BLUE THROUGH WALLS.

As for the writing... David Cage needs his dominant hand broken. I can kind of deal with the random showing of events in her life, since he keeps showing us a timeline, but that party scene? That was easily one of the worst things I've seen all week. I've read original character X-Men fan fiction better then that.

[Koren]

Do you guys honestly think that David Cage writes EVERY last line of the script and refuses to allow anyone to edit it (theres over 2000 pages btw according to ellen page) and programs every last interaction himself? Thats a hell of a lot of work, and damn impossible for a game of this size, I can tell you that.
Game design is a GROUP effort. And to be honest if he was that strict on everything his team could or couldn't do, likely he wouldn't have a team. When you guys come out and bag him, or anyone for that matter, you aren't just beating on him, you are beating on the entire dev team who has put so much work into it and I can damn well tell you from experiance that it hurts like hell to have youre ENTIRE game put down because people dont like just a few parts of it, or that one guy worked on it.

And this game does have quite a few segments where you can do something differently or wrong and have consequences for it, it just isnt as in your face as it is in the other games

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

The one that immediately comes to mind is the part with the native american boys and at the end of that chapter, you can either go and heal the father, or start the ritual right away. There is nothing to immediately point out that you can save him, but if you dont he dies and it changes the ending of the game.

[Sabby]

If David Cage isn't in charge of what get's finalized for the script, then wtf is his contribution? I know he can't make the whole game himself, but that's not a pass for atrocious writing. He either wrote it, oversaw, or didn't check it. Either way, it's his fuck up, and he's a terrible writer.

[Vanity Evolved]

Want to know what bugs me about this game most, when compared to the outright lie that Indigo Prophecy was and the horribly written, retconned wreck which also has to lie to you for the plot to even work and not fall through on itself?

I saw promise in Beyond: Two Souls, something I haven't seen in a David Cage game. I've been watching Two Best Friends play it and it has the exact reactions I'd expect; giving you free reign of Aiden, at least in some part, gives you some pretense of moral choice. You can mess as much, or as little, as you wish; lots of people will go for the latter, which helps create the (obviously inspired by) Carrie style of a girl ruining shit through her supernatural abilities. One of the best parts I saw was after the truely awful party scene, which is one of the worst set pieces I've seen in a game of late.

After being locked in the cupboard, what does Pat, currently playing the game, do when he's able to control Aiden again? REVENNNGE! Suddenly, you have some semblence of not only a revenge urge driven solely by the player, a true moral choice, but it's a damn effective and fluid way of executing it. What does Cage do however, in his 'movie'?

For the first time that being 'movie-like' would help him, he forces you to unlock the door and gives you a choice - Revenge or Leave. Boom. Gone. You're suddenly reminded you're in a game, with two binary choices, rather than the freedom to just fuck up the people who tormented you or leave them be.

Even ignoring the little I've learnt about narrative in Uni this year, as a layman, I have to say this; David Cage can't write for shit. He reminds me a lot of Peter Molyneux. He has an idea. But he has no-where near the ability to actually realize that idea. Excusing his terrible writing by claiming 'But they put a lot of effort into it' doesn't change the fact that it's bad. I mean, lets examine the scene.

"Look at this slice of life party. This is fun. I have an idea; how about a dance scene where everyone is gone, you push two buttons in the same direction a couple of times, while music plays, for no reason. Now, tilt the controller to dance with this guy. These people are interested in your 'powers'. Do you show them? Well, they're kind of impressed. Presents! Wait, what the fuck is a 'Poe'? What is this shit? I wanted a thong! Yeah, you're probably a fucking witch whore. You know what we do to witches? We burn them! Lets lock her away and burn her! Muhahahaha!"

The characters arn't even bad characters; they're characatures. They randomly bounce from being generic, unbelievably ignorant teenagers to Inquisitors looking to root out witches within five seconds of her opening a present. It's not just absurb; it's unbelievable and has no logical, realistic flow to it.

Let me ask you, if you took out the button prompts to any David Cage game - Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls - would you sit down and pay [going rate for a film in the cinema nowadays] to see that? Would you say that is a plot intriguing and well-written enough that you would -want- to see it as a film?

[Sabby]

Let me ask you, if you took out the button prompts to any David Cage game - Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls - would you sit down and pay [going rate for a film in the cinema nowadays] to see that? Would you say that is a plot intriguing and well-written enough that you would -want- to see it as a film?

That's what's always confused me about Cage. I can't play it, and I can't watch it. So what do I do? It's like he thinks breaking the status quo is somehow an achievement in and of itself, and the novelty of the product is it's quality.

Edit: Oh wow, do they really have to make the Aiden sections so damn linear?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

So, she's trapped by SWAT with a busted leg. Aiden, go! Fight for me! Okay, what to do! Let's see, two groups of SWAT in cover, one helicopter, one sniper on the roof. So many choices! Possess the sniper! absorb his power! Turn it against them! Wait, why is there a button prompt? WTF?! He jumped off! D= That's not what I wanted! Uhg, fine, guess I'll just possess someone else. Wait, why can't I possess anyone? I can do force choke on this guy, but the rest are untouchable

It's almost as if there is only one way to do this, with certain powers only working on certain people. Because game. Choices and such.

[Koren]

Yeah the party scene was horrendous. I hated it too and thought it was stupid, but if thats the only thing you are basing it off, look deeper. Like with any game some bits are horrible and some are absolutely amazing.

With anything with a game, at some point there comes a point where you cant afford to spend months finalising and perfecting every little detail, thats in the script and the gameplay. And its the same with choices. Having a full and lasting choice in each part would be SO much more art, code, script, assets, data, memory, that it would quickly get out of control.

I did personally think that the aiden parts were perhaps a bit too limited as well though, that it would have been nice to maybe have a reason for the limited control you could have over people etc, but I also wonder if in some areas that would have made the game too confusing

Im not saying you guys are wrong for hating the game, everyone has a right to think what they think about games, and i know these games have a lot of controversy attached to them a lot of the time, im just saying dont judge so harshly and bash things without understanding them and the way they work and what you are actually critiquing. If you can't be bothered seeing the good parts because of the bad parts, then I personally find fault in that.

Let me ask you, if you took out the button prompts to any David Cage game - Indigo Prophecy, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls - would you sit down and pay [going rate for a film in the cinema nowadays] to see that? Would you say that is a plot intriguing and well-written enough that you would -want- to see it as a film?

No I wouldnt, but not because I dont like the plot, but because being able to play as aiden, experience the crap that jodie goes through, have to deal with the ending choices, thats what made the plot for me, connected me with it. And because by taking out those bits you are fundamentally changing the entire fabric of the experiance in a greater way then you expect, even down to the scenes etc, it would be an entirely different experiance and I couldn't guess what that experience would be.

[Sabby]

Oh, I'm not basing my whole argument on one scene. I'm a few hours into the game and so far the entire experience has been thoroughly unpleasant. The gameplay is clumsy and breaks immersion, the characters are written terribly, the dialogue is painful, the plot is told in the most unnecessarily convoluted fashion, and the entire thing is just dull.

Cage has basically taken a bad story and a poor understanding of what makes a game and mashed them together into something he thinks is unique but really isn't. It's been done far better before, on smaller budgets. Hell, I just now got to The Walking Dead game by Telltale. So far, I don't think it's nearly as good as all the hype says it was, yet it's superior to David Cages games in every way that matters.

[Vanity Evolved]

Yeah the party scene was horrendous. I hated it too and thought it was stupid, but if thats the only thing you are basing it off, look deeper. Like with any game some bits are horrible and some are absolutely amazing.

With anything with a game, at some point there comes a point where you cant afford to spend months finalising and perfecting every little detail, thats in the script and the gameplay. And its the same with choices. Having a full and lasting choice in each part would be SO much more art, code, script, assets, data, memory, that it would quickly get out of control.

I did personally think that the aiden parts were perhaps a bit too limited as well though, that it would have been nice to maybe have a reason for the limited control you could have over people etc, but I also wonder if in some areas that would have made the game too confusing

Im not saying you guys are wrong for hating the game, everyone has a right to think what they think about games, and i know these games have a lot of controversy attached to them a lot of the time, im just saying dont judge so harshly and bash things without understanding them and the way they work and what you are actually critiquing. If you can't be bothered seeing the good parts because of the bad parts, then I personally find fault in that.

No I wouldnt, but not because I dont like the plot, but because being able to play as aiden, experience the crap that jodie goes through, have to deal with the ending choices, thats what made the plot for me, connected me with it. And because by taking out those bits you are fundamentally changing the entire fabric of the experiance in a greater way then you expect, even down to the scenes etc, it would be an entirely different experiance and I couldn't guess what that experience would be.

"Play" as Aiden is strong word; you're given a set-piece and a very limited amount of actions you can perform. From everything I've seen, you're -forced- to perform. If you choose Revenge during the party, you're forced to just throw stuff about until the game allows you to progress. The SWAT scene gives you a couple of button presses with no variation between what you can/can't do; you have to do those things to progress the story. If it's anything like Indigo Prophecy, then there will be no moral choice; so far, there is a very barebasic Mass Effect style black and white morality system. "Do you be Carrie or do you not?"

Except unlike Mass Effect, there is some well-written responses in place, despite Mass Effect rather poorly handling this enforced system of morality within a game. Does a poor plot really become 'deeper' if, insted of the main character walking behind cover, you hold the X button to make her walk behind cover, with nothing happening until you hold X long enough?

[Vanity Evolved]

Actually, here's a better idea: I'll actually post my feelings on the game a little better now I'm not at uni and trying to smash out an opinion while on a five minute break. ;D

Please, try not to use 'you just don't get it' as a refutation of other peoples opinions. You can't say "I see why you dislike the game, and I agree with you" and then in the next sentence say "But you just don't get it, and you should try judging the game when you understand what it's -really- about. If you knew what you were takling about, you'd like it." It comes across as very passive aggressive and condensending to me, personally.

My main issue with Beyond: Two Souls, like Cage's other games, is this: David Cage has no particular talent. I don't intend this as a personal attack against him, but it is my opinion on his work. Cage is, in one of my nerdy analogies, a Monk in Dungeons and Dragons. He has no idea what he wants to do and the few things he can do, he does poorly. It would be poor form to base this opinion on just his work with Beyond, which to me is one of his better works, but I've seen Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain, which gives me a decent basis to criticize his work.

Cage wants to be a storywriter, a game developer and a film director at once. Unfortunately, he's not particularly skilled in any one of these three areas, which means everyone of his attempts to combine these three things turns out to be a trainwreck. A pattern I've noticed with Cage is that he wants to have his cake, and eat it; he wants a film, written like a film (a predetermined beginning, middle and end) but at the same time, a branching storyline with gameplay (for obvious reasons, these two things don't mesh). Cage doesn't seem to write stories; he writes set pieces. He gets an idea. He gets another idea. He gets a third idea. And rather than thinking how appropriate they are, or how well they fit together, he goes ahead with it. He doesn't care how he gets from Point A to Point B. He simply knows he wants those two points to exist and no matter how poor the excuse, he will get from those points.

Lets look at Indigo Prophecy. He wants to create a multiple choice game about a supernatural crime thriller. What do we actually get? A pre-determined game with no actual choice, other than cosmetics (You have to be found and identified in the cafe, no matter how little sense it makes, etc.) which has multiple endings - which are all determined based on one choice at the end of the game. He wants a serious murder mystery... which quickly devolves into alien AIs, ancient Illuminati orders and Lovecraftian bugmonsters hunting down Aztec Neo as he fights Aztec Agent Smith by shooting Hadoukens at each other complete with Dragonball Z charge up sequences.

Heavy Rain follows a similar trend. It's an ambitious project which begins as a psychic victim of circumstance hunting down a killer from four possible people, including himself. This game -does- have more endings and choice matters a little more, but this mainly changes the endings of the characters and who fights the final battle. Of course, this idea is heavily plundered and retconned, which not only breaks the game's plot entirely (the point where you're in the typewriter shop has a section where the plot doesn't just have a plot hole, the plot collapses; it can't support itself. The only way the game can continue is by the plot purposely omitting information and lying to you), but also leaves large plot holes all over the place and gaps in the narrative.

Beyond: Two Souls, so far, has gone a similar way to the last two games. I've not ignored  the good parts of Beyond; I've seen several parts I like. Want to know what bugs me? Cage actively ruins them. My prime example is when you're locked in the cupboard at the party, a true moment of actual moral choice - which is the one time Cage decides to put in a forced, arbitary game decision which not only reminds you that you only have two choices, but breaks immersion entirely. Cage decides he wants a 'story of a girl plagued by supernatural powers, not focused on military stuff like so many games at the moment'... then proceeds to have one of the most major gameplay segments where the 'gameplay' begins revolve entirely around her becoming a SpecOps agent and killing SWAT. Sabby nails it perfectly. There is no choice or gameplay; the SWAT arn't obsticles that pose a thread. They're button presses. You push a button or two, see something happen, the plot continues. You have no choice in what happens. You have four or five actions with Aiden, yet every obsticle is prescripted. You used possess on that one guy? Well, it doesn't matter, because the game uses the 'possess' stick movements, but this actually means 'Force Choke'. Cage loves huge dramatic set-pieces... but he never has any drama in them. When he writes action scenes, they drag out to the point of ridiculousness.  His writing is jerky, and all over the place (which is Beyond, isn't helped by the fact the narrative is constantly jumping back and forward in time in addition to being clunky and forced). David Cage is a man who wants to write, direct and make video games all in one sitting - yet is horribly unproficient in every one of these roles.

[Koren]

Please, try not to use 'you just don't get it' as a refutation of other peoples opinions. You can't say "I see why you dislike the game, and I agree with you" and then in the next sentence say "But you just don't get it, and you should try judging the game when you understand what it's -really- about. If you knew what you were takling about, you'd like it." It comes across as very passive aggressive and condensending to me, personally.

You have my sincerest apologies, I wasn't trying to say that at all and certainly didn't mean to give you that impression.

I understand completely that some people will like it and some people wont, and I wasn't at all trying to say that everyone has to like it, or they'd like it if they understood it, not at all, i was simply saying that I dislike the attitude that I get from a lot of people in the gaming community that they dislike this game because of one thing, or because one person worked on it etc, ignoring anything else that comes of it. A game can still be horrible, even if it has a few awesome parts, i just hate when people say that the awesome parts don't matter because of the rest of it.

[Chris Brady]

Actually, here's a better idea: I'll actually post my feelings on the game a little better now I'm not at uni and trying to smash out an opinion while on a five minute break. ;D

Please, try not to use 'you just don't get it' as a refutation of other peoples opinions. You can't say "I see why you dislike the game, and I agree with you" and then in the next sentence say "But you just don't get it, and you should try judging the game when you understand what it's -really- about. If you knew what you were takling about, you'd like it." It comes across as very passive aggressive and condensending to me, personally.

My main issue with Beyond: Two Souls, like Cage's other games, is this: David Cage has no particular talent. I don't intend this as a personal attack against him, but it is my opinion on his work. Cage is, in one of my nerdy analogies, a Monk in Dungeons and Dragons. He has no idea what he wants to do and the few things he can do, he does poorly. It would be poor form to base this opinion on just his work with Beyond, which to me is one of his better works, but I've seen Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain, which gives me a decent basis to criticize his work.

Cage wants to be a storywriter, a game developer and a film director at once. Unfortunately, he's not particularly skilled in any one of these three areas, which means everyone of his attempts to combine these three things turns out to be a trainwreck. A pattern I've noticed with Cage is that he wants to have his cake, and eat it; he wants a film, written like a film (a predetermined beginning, middle and end) but at the same time, a branching storyline with gameplay (for obvious reasons, these two things don't mesh). Cage doesn't seem to write stories; he writes set pieces. He gets an idea. He gets another idea. He gets a third idea. And rather than thinking how appropriate they are, or how well they fit together, he goes ahead with it. He doesn't care how he gets from Point A to Point B. He simply knows he wants those two points to exist and no matter how poor the excuse, he will get from those points.

Lets look at Indigo Prophecy. He wants to create a multiple choice game about a supernatural crime thriller. What do we actually get? A pre-determined game with no actual choice, other than cosmetics (You have to be found and identified in the cafe, no matter how little sense it makes, etc.) which has multiple endings - which are all determined based on one choice at the end of the game. He wants a serious murder mystery... which quickly devolves into alien AIs, ancient Illuminati orders and Lovecraftian bugmonsters hunting down Aztec Neo as he fights Aztec Agent Smith by shooting Hadoukens at each other complete with Dragonball Z charge up sequences.

Heavy Rain follows a similar trend. It's an ambitious project which begins as a psychic victim of circumstance hunting down a killer from four possible people, including himself. This game -does- have more endings and choice matters a little more, but this mainly changes the endings of the characters and who fights the final battle. Of course, this idea is heavily plundered and retconned, which not only breaks the game's plot entirely (the point where you're in the typewriter shop has a section where the plot doesn't just have a plot hole, the plot collapses; it can't support itself. The only way the game can continue is by the plot purposely omitting information and lying to you), but also leaves large plot holes all over the place and gaps in the narrative.

Beyond: Two Souls, so far, has gone a similar way to the last two games. I've not ignored  the good parts of Beyond; I've seen several parts I like. Want to know what bugs me? Cage actively ruins them. My prime example is when you're locked in the cupboard at the party, a true moment of actual moral choice - which is the one time Cage decides to put in a forced, arbitary game decision which not only reminds you that you only have two choices, but breaks immersion entirely. Cage decides he wants a 'story of a girl plagued by supernatural powers, not focused on military stuff like so many games at the moment'... then proceeds to have one of the most major gameplay segments where the 'gameplay' begins revolve entirely around her becoming a SpecOps agent and killing SWAT. Sabby nails it perfectly. There is no choice or gameplay; the SWAT arn't obsticles that pose a thread. They're button presses. You push a button or two, see something happen, the plot continues. You have no choice in what happens. You have four or five actions with Aiden, yet every obsticle is prescripted. You used possess on that one guy? Well, it doesn't matter, because the game uses the 'possess' stick movements, but this actually means 'Force Choke'. Cage loves huge dramatic set-pieces... but he never has any drama in them. When he writes action scenes, they drag out to the point of ridiculousness.  His writing is jerky, and all over the place (which is Beyond, isn't helped by the fact the narrative is constantly jumping back and forward in time in addition to being clunky and forced). David Cage is a man who wants to write, direct and make video games all in one sitting - yet is horribly unproficient in every one of these roles.

And his ego doesn't see that he needs to learn.  And unfortunately, there are enough people who don't really care past that it's got Ellen Page and/or Willem Defoe.

[Sabby]

This Assassins Creed timeline on shuffle mode is really pissing me off. There are actually some good scenes in this game. Seriously, there was a moment just now where I really got into it, and felt very sad for Jodie. Problem is, the events leading up to that moment hadn't happened yet, so I had no idea why it was happening, because they feel the need to tell the story in seemingly random chunks.

Think of that sad scene from Titanic where they're floating on a piece of wood and the girl has to let him go and watch his frozen corpse sink away, but you haven't got to see the boat yet. Next you see some of the girls school life, then her young childhood, and THEN you see her board the Titanic, then back to her school days again.

[Suiko]

This Assassins Creed timeline on shuffle mode is really pissing me off. There are actually some good scenes in this game. Seriously, there was a moment just now where I really got into it, and felt very sad for Jodie. Problem is, the events leading up to that moment hadn't happened yet, so I had no idea why it was happening, because they feel the need to tell the story in seemingly random chunks.

Think of that sad scene from Titanic where they're floating on a piece of wood and the girl has to let him go and watch his frozen corpse sink away, but you haven't got to see the boat yet. Next you see some of the girls school life, then her young childhood, and THEN you see her board the Titanic, then back to her school days again.

This really bothers me too ><
I could get behind the odd flashback during a constant narrative but it just feels all over the place.

[Chris Brady]

A game can still be horrible, even if it has a few awesome parts, i just hate when people say that the awesome parts don't matter because of the rest of it.

I'm going to comment on this, as B2S as well as other games, like Mass Effect 3.  To me, it's based on the 'flow' of storytelling.  And I don't mean a linear progression, some stories break it up and break it up well, but that's not the point.

A story, for me, has to be cohesive, coherent and needs to be consistent.  You just can't throw a twist in that no one saw coming without leading small hints.  Put them in, even if they're hard to see, but make sure there's a hint of what's to come.  But that's tangential to my main point.

My main point is that there has to be more 'awesome' than 'crap' for me to forgive a story.  And sometimes, that ONE thing, can and has destroyed an entire game.  The ME3 ending for example.  For me, it was like my favourite pizza, but ONE slice has a turd on it.  Pretty disgusting, really.  But it's only that one slice.  At the same time, do you really want to eat that?

B2S doesn't have that.  A lot of it is nonsensical and badly written, despite the amazing performances by Ms. Page and Mr. Defoe, and I can't get past those bad scenes.

[Sabby]

The story seems to get worse and worse...

So, they want to drive home that Jodie can't be around people because ghost powers? Okay, so how do they go about this? Make Aiden uncontrollable?

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

NOPE! Just have every human being she come into contact with either call her a witch or try and gang rape her. Then OH NO, she defended herself with ghost magic! This is why you can't leave the ghost facility Jodie, because truckers try and rape you for being a witchslut before they know you have the ghost magic.

This isn't just bad writing, this is creepy.

[Vanity Evolved]

It's rather disturbing - considering just how much David Cage focused on Ellen Paige during production. But yes, it stinks of some damn unfortunate implications. I've seen several parts of it now, and in about an hour and a half, I think there's been about three attempted rapes on her?

And this 'witch' thing is really beginning to bug me. Not only with how randomly it comes out (She has magic powers! so cool, very occult. Oh wait, no, now we hates her. Witch! Slut!), but considering the time it's written in setting, it feels -fake as fuck- that a boy falls over in a snowball fight, and the first reaction is 'She's a fucking witch, with her dark magics! Stone her!'

Ninety percent of the interactions in this game are forced as fuck. The few scenes which have any sort of emotional impact are lost amongst the 'is it before, after or during her escape/training/whatever?'

[Chris Brady]

Wasn't this a reoccurring thing in Heavy Rain too?  I never finished the game, but I heard something about the woman being attacked several times?

[Vanity Evolved]

Wasn't this a reoccurring thing in Heavy Rain too?  I never finished the game, but I heard something about the woman being attacked several times?

Not -as- much, I don't recall. There's one vaguely rape-y scene where some robbers break into her house and try to kill her, but no-where near as straight to the point and obviously 'I'm gonna stick mah dick in ya!' than Ellen's experiences.

[Chris Brady]

I seem to recall Madison (think that was her name) having almost two instances, but I could be wrong.  Still the fact that Mr. Cage has done it in at least more than one game...

[Sabby]

The best way to make a strong female character is to have her fight rape.

[Chris Brady]

* Chris Brady froths at the mouth, ready to rage, realizes Sabby's being facetious.

[Sabby]

Just finished.

Absolute fucking garbage.

[Jayna]

Well, I am in the minority here.

I loved it.
But I loved Heavy Rain as well.

I think this style game is really unique and while the randomness of the storytelling did throw me off, I still felt emotionally tied to a lot of the characters and enjoyed how my choices played out.

All and all I thought it was a pleasant, well done experience.

[Chris Brady]

No, Jayna, you're not a minority.  In fact, looking around, I'd say you're the majority.

[Jayna]

Well good then! :)

I do fully believe the game takes a certain taste though.

[Chris Brady]

Well good then! :)

I do fully believe the game takes a certain taste though.

Personal Opinion:  If by taste you mean no regard for story, pacing and characters.  :P

The issue for me, is that everyone seems (important word) to be blinded by the star power and are not seeing the issues with the story.  This is not a game, this is an animated choose your own adventure novel, which is a wonderful idea, if it weren't so sloppy.

As Vanity Evolved put it, there isn't actual cohesive story telling, it's just linked set piece to set piece, with little to no care about how they fit.  And every gamer who buys this, is rewarding this.

[Jayna]

It's just a matter of separate opinions. I liked The story. I thought how they did it was unique, confusing at first but I was able to appreciate it.
Story is the main thing I focus on in any game. At times probably the only thing I care about.

Also you have to talk about the star power. Ellen page and William Dafoe were both fantastic.
Not talking about it is like not talking about SWTOR having voice actors
Or commenting on Mark Hammel as the Joker.
It's part of it

[Chris Brady]

The issue for me is that yes, they ARE fantastic.  Everything else was horrible in contrast, which made the bad stand out.  And I'm not entirely sure Mr. Cage knew what he was aiming for as the 'story' such as it was, meandered badly all over the sci-fi spectrum.

And what is with that guy and pointless shower scenes?

[Koren]

The issue for me, is that everyone seems (important word) to be blinded by the star power and are not seeing the issues with the story.  This is not a game, this is an animated choose your own adventure novel, which is a wonderful idea, if it weren't so sloppy.

Im sorry, one thing keeps bugging me in this thread in general, not pointing fingers so appologies if it comes off that way

Okay so then if this is an animated movie, what do you call 'Ryse' which you can put the controller down and do nothing and game plays itself, while with this if you arent actively involved in it nothing happens?

By technical definition this is a game. It may not be the sort of game where you can control every little action and detail, and it make not have all of the functionality of other AAA games where you have a plethora of mechanics to pick from, but this is a game. It may not fit into your standard genres, and im quite happy if everyone wants to say its a game in the genre of 'limited interactivity', or 'interactive experiance' or 'plot focused' (not saying plot is good or bad, just saying that was the focus, regardless of outcome) but no matter what it fits the technical definition of a game as defined by industry, game theory from twenty years ago even, and everything ive read on how to define what is a video game in the strictest sense.
I understand that 'video game' has some connotations to it, and ive said myself its not the way video games are commonly perceived and it does fit more into interactive experiance then the common social perceptions of a video game, but it is a game. what is a 'video game' is by no means 100% defined and set in stone as to its strict meaning,

Sorry if I sound snappy, im quite happy if people love or hate this game or anything in between, Ive stated my opinion, that while I found it enjoyable I understand it had a lot of flaws, but can we please stop using the dislike for the focused mechanics to try and redefine words and meaning, and ive mentioned this before and got no reply, and wanted to have an honest discussion on this point.

[Sabby]

Okay so then if this is an animated movie, what do you call 'Ryse' which you can put the controller down and do nothing and game plays itself, while with this if you arent actively involved in it nothing happens?

Um... Ryse doesn't play itself. You actually need to navigate and attack. It's light gameplay, but it's certainly not a cutscene with the occasional button prompt.

[Chris Brady]

Actually, the only thing Ryse automates are the finishing moves that YOU need to trigger.  If you do the button prompts within the finishers, you get extra bennies out of it, if you don't they enemies still get finished.  But the rest of the game, you actually have to play.  You have to swing your sword, or smash with your shield.  (Which, in MY opinion, more fantasy games needs to treat the shield as what it really was, a defensive WEAPON, not a lump of metal and/or wood that just hangs on your left arm.)

Beyond Two Souls and it's predecessor Heavy Rain doesn't even have that.