Gender differences: martial interests

[Skynet]

Additionally, I'd also be interested in knowing how well-received that feminist's statement is among her peers out of curiosity. Was it well-received among Polish feminists and women in general in the country, or did it receive a lot of criticism?

[Annaamarth]

The Overton Window is simply 'what is considered acceptable to debate/talk about'. So it can move in either direction, left or right.

Additional, the Overton Window can drift right/left/up/down on different topics - universal health care is different from religious and reproductive freedoms is free from economic interference is free from environmental regulation.  These things may have overlap and connections but they are not monolithic.

Yup. Meanwhile, the lady I'm talking about claimed (I don't know if she still does - maybe she changed her mind) that if women watched football, it was because they were only doing this to conform to their husbands interests... Not because they liked the sport in itself. After reading a few mini-rants on football by her, I came to realize that she was simply projected her personal dislike for the game into her politics...

She also is (or, again, used to be - not sure whether she sticks to that notion nowadays) that more women should get into politics, because women are just more reasonable and community-minded (instead of men who have huge egos, selfish obsessions with personal careers etc.). Overall, according to her, the world would be a better place if run by women. I... strongly doubt that. Having observed some female politicians in action over here, I'm pretty sure women in politics can be as dishonest, greedy and bigoted as their male counterparts...

I must say that encountering that lady's views - as well as talking to some feminists online who seemed to agree with her - I came to realize that there are some brands of feminism that really promote some bad ideas. And that actually smack of reverse-sexism...

I would not call that reverse-sexism.  I think that's just sexism - it's a portrayal of women within the framework of traditional gender roles and stereotypes.  Empowering women in traditional gender roles has immense value, please don't get me wrong - but I think it is healthier to allow people to empower themselves and make their own decisions regarding their interests regardless of gender or stereotype.

My take on the original question - and this is anecdotal - is "it varies."  It may be that chromosomal differences (and the concomitant hormonal differences that may come with that) may have an effect, but I think nature trumps nurture on this.  My wife isn't typically a fan of rom-coms and enjoys action flicks and war movies.  She also has a STEM background (molecular bio), which is different from my own STEM background (an odd cross-section of nuclear physics, electrical and chemistry).  My hard-edges/straight lines physics-brain matches well with her soft-routing O-Chem brain - we approach problems differently but typically arrive at the same answer.

She doesn't have a wargaming background, but she has expressed interest.  She enjoyed watching Band of Brothers and Chernobyl with me, and was interested in the broader perspective a veteran could offer to the former, and a former plant operator could offer to the latter.

I most strongly suspect that Oniya, the lady-knights of the SCA and other feminine examples might be edge cases, but if so I further suspect that it has more to do with the culture, values and access they were raised with and the interests encouraged than simple genetics.

[Oniya]

I most strongly suspect that Oniya, the lady-knights of the SCA and other feminine examples might be edge cases, but if so I further suspect that it has more to do with the culture, values and access they were raised with and the interests encouraged than simple genetics.

Personally speaking, there was a fair amount that I was simply not discouraged from, as well as a certain amount of sheer cussedness.  My mother gave up on trying to make me walk/talk/dress/sit/act 'like a lady'.

[Annaamarth]

I mean - I think it'd be fair to throw "not discouraged" into the "access" bucket, but sounds believable.  Bit of nurture, along with your cussed nature?

[Oniya]

Let's just say that a lot of my childhood could be summed up with 'Challenge accepted!' 

'That piano piece is too hard for you.'  'Girls aren't good at math.'  'That book is too grown-up for you.'  (But they kept leaving my bookmark in it.  ??? )

[Annaamarth]

Not that you need my validation, but you certainly have my admiration - I think you are very likely one bad motokifuka.  I think.  If I'm parsing that right.

[Oniya]

Not that you need my validation, but you certainly have my admiration - I think you are very likely one bad motokifuka.  I think.  If I'm parsing that right.

LOL!  That came from one of those 'make your ninja name' memes, where you replace each letter with a corresponding Japanese sounding syllable.  I thought it sounded like the line in 'Shaft' -

'You see this cat Shaft is a bad mother (Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about Shaft (Then we can dig it)'

[123atsd]

Please, pardon my rambling and chaotic attempt at making a post based on some loose observations...

Lately, I've been thinking on the difference between male and female attitudes toward violence, guns, combat, military and similar martial-related matters. Here are some random observations:

1. When me and my sister were watching GOT, I really enjoyed the combat scenes - while my sister was bored by them.

2. The wargaming crowd over here is predominently male.

3. Recently, even one liberal (and female) journalist here made a claim that only a minority of female high school students would be interested in any expanded course of military history...

So, my question is: is there really a gender-related difference in how men and women feel about such matters? Is it true that women have a significantly lower interest in playing games about war and combat... learning about military-related things... or just watching or reading well-executed combat scenes?

If so, why is that? Is it because of that whole testosterone thing? Or is it because of socialization? If the latter, how does that work, exactly - how does the society influence women into not being interested in combat (or men into *being* interested in it)?

Any thoughts?

Its behavioural genetics + socialization (arguably also derived from genes)
throughout history men gained an advantage if they could commit violence that would help preserve their genes
that is less true for women
testosterone doesn't always induce violence, it makes them more competitive and status seeking

[AlizsahTheBard]

As others have said War-Gaming Community has that problem a lot of earlier nerd Communities has. They are hostile to non-white, queer or more feminine members. Things are changing, but the community is pushing back hard. Just look at Warhammer 40k? You have men that lose their minds when anyone dares Space Marines should be able to be girls too. I am hoping with the relaunch of Warhammer Fantasy (Warhammer Old World) we get more girls involved especially as Creative Assembly Warhammer: Total War series really introduced the world to a new group of people. We are seeing this with 40k too as they try to reach a wider audience but once again push back is vehement and hard.

To add to this, Tabletop RPGs are experiencing somewhat of an inclusive renaissance as POC are being allowed to be writers, create content. There are still many problems, but there is clear indication that the creators are trying to expand their fanbase now. And of course, Paizo is moving in strides in this regard.

The only thing holding a lot of this back is the old fans. So it's not girls don't want to war games, hell let's not discount trans people here - that alone is proving you wrong.

[clonkertink]

As others have said War-Gaming Community has that problem a lot of earlier nerd Communities has. They are hostile to non-white, queer or more feminine members. Things are changing, but the community is pushing back hard. Just look at Warhammer 40k? You have men that lose their minds when anyone dares Space Marines should be able to be girls too. I am hoping with the relaunch of Warhammer Fantasy (Warhammer Old World) we get more girls involved especially as Creative Assembly Warhammer: Total War series really introduced the world to a new group of people. We are seeing this with 40k too as they try to reach a wider audience but once again push back is vehement and hard.

To add to this, Tabletop RPGs are experiencing somewhat of an inclusive renaissance as POC are being allowed to be writers, create content. There are still many problems, but there is clear indication that the creators are trying to expand their fanbase now. And of course, Paizo is moving in strides in this regard.

The only thing holding a lot of this back is the old fans. So it's not girls don't want to war games, hell let's not discount trans people here - that alone is proving you wrong.

Yeah, wargaming often feels much more entrenched in a lot of that "boy's club" nonsense than most. And that might partly be because Wargaming is still pretty closely bound to the "FLGS", in ways that RPGs aren't. If you want to play D&D, you can go online and find hundreds of other people looking for games, and chances are there are some cool folks out there who are all happy to tell the kinds of stories you're into, even if those stories aren't about cishet white dudes.

With wargames, though, if you want to play then chances are you're going to have to find the local community. Warmachine has Wartable these days (and it's excellent) but that's a fan project that was developed during the pandemic. If you're into this hobby because you want to paint cool things and put them on the table, then you've gotta find other people in meatspace, and the local groups are probably pretty entrenched.

And there's also a much higher bar of entry for representation of characters, too. Sure, you can kitbash, but requires a very distinct set of skills, which may be beyond the average hobbyist. So while it's possible to make your Space Marines female, it's not necessarily easy.