Alternative Gender Pronouns

[Nadir]

"We" being those who are not of the gender binary. And no, that article has dozens of cultures across the world that have accepted three or more gender as the social norm. A gender that was neither male or female was written about by one of the first cultures to use the written language - so I ask again, how long until we stop being fiction?

I do appreciate the social need for expressing genders outside of male and female for people who don't feel part of either of those... and if it's being more honest about who you are, that can't be anything but good. Does that invalidate the basic duality of male and female? I dunno.

Do I, being not male or female, invalidate male and female? what

[Cyrano Johnson]

It's a bit destabilizing. Because then the integrity of male and female as these somehow immutable realities ceases to be... real.

Well, the "immutable" ship sailed when gender reassignment became a possibility, but the integrity and reality of most people feeling male and female is not going anywhere. The vague concern about "destabilization" doesn't seem warranted to me.

[CupidCatt]

I think you're kind of making excuses here. Maybe a good first step is to do some introspection about what really has you this uncomfortable with the whole subject.

I think that's a deflective statement, intended to intimidate. Just because I don't necessarily agree with the ideas being presented doesn't preclude me from having an opinion, or learning from yours. Because that's what you're expressing right now... your opinion.

[CupidCatt]

Well, the "immutable" ship sailed when gender reassignment became a possibility, but the integrity and reality of most people feeling male and female is not going anywhere. The vague concern about "destabilization" doesn't seem warranted to me.

? How does the ability to cosmetically transform the body figure into the dynamics of this....

And again, just because my opinions seem "unwarranted" to you isn't any reason to be patronizing and tell me to go and think about it 'smore.

I have thought about it and am ready to reach out and talk. I feel like you shutting me down isn't helpful.

[Cyrano Johnson]

I feel like you shutting me down isn't helpful.

You're right. Sorry. Probably a sign that I need to recharge the batteries and come at it fresh tomorrow.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I do wonder if you are confusing sex and gender.  They are two different things.

[CupidCatt]

I do wonder if you are confusing sex and gender.  They are two different things.

Maybe I am confusing them. But isn't it healthy for one to grow out of the other?

[Nadir]

So female-to-male guys are, what, confused? Lying? Fairies?

[CupidCatt]

Yeah, cos I'm saying anyone who isn't biologically male or female and identifies with the corresponding gender is crazy, a liar, or a mythological being.

It's not like you're misrepresenting my questions or anything.

[Nadir]

Please don't delete your posts from a debate. Deleting a post that has been replied to is against the site rules.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

Sex is biological and certainly most would consider the "gold standard" to be healthy.  Still healthy is a relative term and people are born with differences from the standard, going on to live healthy lives.  Obviously things can be different for them, but because someone is different does not mean they are not healthy.

Certainly things would be easier for people if their gender matched their sex.  Gender is a social construct based around people's perception of sex and the roles given over to people based on their sex.  I think anyone that is in that situation would attest that their life would be easier if they didn't feel the need to break free of the prescribed identity.  Of course then those people would not be who they are and so be different people altogether.  Keep in mind that in Western Culture there are typically two genders, but in other cultures that was not so.  I do remember a Native American tribe for instance that allowed a transition of the gender roles based on individual preference.  People that feel a tug toward what I guess would be called an alternative gender can still lead healthy lives, once more different is not necessarily unhealthy. 

[Koren]

Maybe I am confusing them. But isn't it healthy for one to grow out of the other?

Not really no. In fact it can be incrediby unhealthy for one to define the other just because they are both there
Sex is biological, your bits and reproductive organs
Gender is mental, and not at all connected to sex for many people, controlled by the brain and only the brain.

For some people these align, for cis-gendered females and males, and for others these are completely disconnected or even opposite.
The idea that they have to match to be healthy and natural is quite an old view.

The idea that people who dont have their sex and gender matching is unhealthy is part of the reason why trans people struggle to find acceptance, because we are told we are unnatural, the same way that gays often are.
Its not a fantasy or a construct or a flight of fancy for people to ahve a sperate gender, whether thats agendered, transgendered, gender fluid or anything else, its real, and its in the brain and its just who people are.
And just like gays, people being able to identify as they gender they want (not sex) is not threatening anyone elses right to do so, even if their gender and sex lines up perfectly

[CupidCatt]

I didn't delete any posts.

I am however considering deleting the entire thread, cos this is not a debate (surprised you think it is) - so far, you've basically attacked me and everything I've said, and don't seem able to talk about it without the whole thing devolving into "wow she's so dumb for not thinking exactly the same way we do" semi-bullying.

[CupidCatt]

Not really no. In fact it can be incrediby unhealthy for one to define the other just because they are both there

Are you actually saying it is not healthy to be born a biological female (for example) and identify with the female gender? I don't understand that at all  ???

[Koren]

Deleting threads is very frowned upon here.

No ones calling you dumb, but it does come off as an attack when you suggest (whether or not its intended, readers perception will change things) that by being who we are, we are threatening your identity which has nothing to do with us, which is also a major complaint about accepting homosexuality, and is actually very painful to have direction at you

Are you actually saying it is not healthy to be born a biological female (for example) and identify with the female gender? I don't understand that at all  ???

Im not saying thats unhealthy, im saying that it may not be healthy for some people to be forced into conforming to a female gender simply because their sex is female

Also you can use quote buttons on posts in the reply pages to cut down on double posting, which makes it harder for people to respond to you. It will insert multiple quotes into one post

[Nadir]

I didn't delete any posts.

I am however considering deleting the entire thread, cos this is not a debate (surprised you think it is) - so far, you've basically attacked me and everything I've said, and don't seem able to talk about it without the whole thing devolving into "wow she's so dumb for not thinking exactly the same way we do" semi-bullying.

Oh, so I just imagined you saying that a person with ovaries is and always will be female?

I've not attacked you. I've asked you questions that you've ignored. I feel like you've attacked me by saying my gender is a choice, a fiction, a trivial hinderance to your happy existence.

[CupidCatt]

Oh, so I just imagined you saying that a person with ovaries is and always will be female?

I've not attacked you. I've asked you questions that you've ignored. I feel like you've attacked me by saying my gender is a choice, a fiction, a trivial hinderance to your happy existence.

That was an edit to clarify cos I most certainly never said any of those things.

I mean, come on. I know gender and identity are delicate things but this sort of hyper-sensitivity is just... excessive? I can't even talk to you about it without being derided? My "happy existence" is in no way dependent on whatever gender you have. And I think I'm done here - this really hasn't been a positive experience.

[Koren]

My "happy existence" is in no way dependent on whatever gender you have

When youve stepped away from this for a few days go back and reread over what you said, because to us certainly it sounded like you were saying we were threatening your happiness and stability by having our own gender identity

[CupidCatt]

I was talking in the abstract, about the very ideas at play here. I was trying to, anyway.

And I'm sorry, but I don't intend to ever revisit this thread again. If it stays it stays, but the only stuff I've learned is that sometimes it's just better not to ask.

[Koren]

But even if it was in the abstract, can you see how the same pain is behind it? The same as when that concept is applied to sexuality?

You can always ask. Just be careful how you do so. Because the nature of writing is that things are NEVER taken exactly how you mean them. Wording is everything
If youre interested look up a concept of "The Author is Dead"

[CupidCatt]

It feels like you're saying "this hurts me, so don't go there". That doesn't help discussion... I don't want to hurt you, but if the actual topic is about something that not only defines a big part of you, but is also a bone of contention... it's a Catch 22 situation.

[Blythe]

I would like to try to explain in the best way I can, as a FtM transgender individual recently coming into a more formative sense of identity. I hope do not offend you, although I do feel a bit offended by the thread. Put that to my personal bias for now. I'd rather try to convince you that genderfluidity exists and deserves acknowledgement than get too bothered.

I'd always known that some people use alternative pronouns to express their non-normative sexuality, but hadn't really come across it for real (outside of literature) before visiting Elliquiy. It made me wonder a few things, mostly how I feel about using alternative pronouns for people.

I don't have a problem with it, because I respect our individual rights to self-identify any way we like. But I also think that at the end of the day, it's me being courteous - I don't think I have a duty to adhere to somebody's claims that they are hir, hym or shm etc.

Pronouns are an expression of a social and mental construct of gender. There is a divide that exists between the social and mental construct of gender versus the biological expression of gender. Those who identify as transgender or genderfluid (or a myriad of other options) have rejected this gender binary norm socially and mentally. Many trans individuals go on to reject it physically by switching genders.

At the end of the day, you don't have a duty to adhere to it. But when you do not, you are failing to acknowledge us as the people we see ourselves to be. A decent example would be....you consider yourself very set in your gender, right? What if someone called you the opposite gender and refused to stop? That is not who you are. You need to be acknowledged as how you see yourself, right? To be told you're the other gender would make you feel ugly, incomplete, maybe even freakish. That is how we feel when we are not acknowledged for how we are.

It's okay. It's confusing. But we don't mind questions to help you figure us out better.

I'm writing this because I sorta hope somebody will convince me that there is a deeper reason, beyond social courtesy and good will, for adhering to the notion of gender as an entirely private creation. Because the gender binary of male and female is a massive part of my identity, and I see it everywhere I look. It is reality.

Gender is not a private creation. Gender is a complex social, mental, and physical construct. And when one of these traits is out of balance in some way, a person will likely identify as genderfluid, trans, etc.

I'd like to ask you to open your mind a little bit. Does the existence of additional gender concepts necessarily invalidate your gender? I don't think it does. I don't think our existence diminishes your gender existence. Why should it? I mean, think logically: the genders male and female are reality, yes. But this does not necessarily mean that other gender concepts are not there and should not be acknowledged. In other words, they are not the ONLY reality.

And I don't think having 'third' genders diminishes that... but I don't like being compelled, under the threat of seeming insensitive or bigoted, to play along with somebody's fantasy.

Are you sure you don't think it dimishes you? You have made a rather large assumption--that our gender concepts are a fantasy. Why is it a fantasy? There are people that are born intersexed--with partial or full expressions of both types of genitalia. They are obviously not fantasizing. When you could be both genders, are you obligated to choose from two? I believe intersexed individuals are their own gender. There are people in society that are neuter, too--my uncle is effectively castrated, and he seems to have ceased to refer to himself as "male." Is it such a large step from physical expression of gender to the social and mental expressions that we've gotten to?

I am not fantasizing. I have also been mentally diagnosed as a completely healthy individual. I am in complete control of my own mind, and these concepts are clear to me.

Especially if that person is claiming it is a fully fledged reality and I need to "get on board, or else". (This comes in reaction to a few heated PMs I had with a certain somebody, btw).

I don't think you've been told in a broad sense to "get on board or else."  (Although you may have been told in PM, obviously....)  You're being asked to provide a common courtesy, to acknolwedge an individual's sense of identity. We would do it for you. Always.  And I don't think it upsets the idea of male and female--I think it adds to, enhances, and gives more meaning to those concepts.

Anyone willing to explain to me why third gender pronouns are important? Without spitting in my face first, please (unless you want to take it to RP)  ;D

No spit for you. But the third gender pronouns are important because they are a sign of true person-hood. If you don't even make an effort to acknowledge and use our pronouns, you are denying us the chance to be the people that we are. I know it's complicated. I know it's an upsetting concept when you're very comfortable with gender binary.

But it wouldn't hurt you to give it a chance. Genderfluid people aren't really all that common, so overall, I believe this impacts you little, and could make people like me very happy if you accepted us as we are.

Think it over, CupidCatt. I wrote this very late, and it might not be a great explanation, but I hope that you see it is from the heart.

~Blythe

[Nadir]

It feels like you're saying "this hurts me, so don't go there". That doesn't help discussion... I don't want to hurt you, but if the actual topic is about something that not only defines a big part of you, but is also a bone of contention... it's a Catch 22 situation.

Next time, don't call the people you are trying to understand fiction. It starts you on the wrong foot. You want to understand, great. Just try to be a little more understanding.

*applauds Blythe*

[Blythe]

Thank you, Dim Hon.

[DarklingAlice]

Let's see if I can shed some light, however tiredly and briefly (I almost feel like I should get a boilerplate for this sort of thing...)

I think that the largest part of CupidCatt's confusion can be traced to two ideas:

I guess I'm not talking about belief as such, I'm talking about objective reality.

I have a feeling that you would dispute the objective reality of "absolute gender" - I'm not so sure.

For starters...talking about objective reality is never a good idea, but skipping the whole primer on enlightenment philosophy...let's look at the second part "Absolute Gender". I find this concept interesting and probably at the root of this entire conversation. There is a prevailing myth that Gender is just this ages old thing, y'know? A man is a man and a woman is a woman and only nowadays do we have all these transfolk muddling it up. A lot of people have been focusing on the second part of that, I want to look at the first: The very concept of what a man or woman is is not even constant across cultural boundaries today, much less historically.

Your average American male is not a 'man' in the same sense that your average European male is a 'man'. African 'men' do not possess an expectation to conform to the machismo of Hispanic 'men'. No modern 'man' possesses the classical Greek aner. There are a few basal commonalities, but any one 'man' from these categories would find fault with the 'man' from another of these categories, demonstrating the inherent subjectivity of the definition. Indeed, it is probably that there are people who are trans* in our society purely because our subjective definition of 'man' does not fit them, but were they to have been born in a different society with a different 'man' concept would be cis* (this is what I call 'regressive gender identity').