A debate regarding Obama- does race matter?

[Glossolalia]

It should be noted that I'm Canadian, before I start this off. I also do not like Obama, but to me the colour of his skin doesn't matter. He could be a purple headed alien from outer space, and it wouldn't matter, I still have my opinions on him.

The question is this; obviously Obama is black/mixed race. In your opinion, if he were a white candidate with these views, do you believe he would have as much support as he does? Or does race really matter?

I know it's the year 2008, but to some people, race does matter.

So. Would Obama have as much support if he were purely white?

[Revolverman]

I doubt it, in fact, I think if he was white, McCain would be far into the lead.

[Apple of Eris]

Given the fact his opponent has gone from rebel against his party to towing the party line - the same party that has been in power in congress and the white house for the better part of a decade:

YES.

Look at the economic, social, and political climate in the US. You could probably run a coked up wolverine as a democrat and it would get at least 45% of the vote.

[Paradox]

I think he would have a lot of support still; however, the fact that he is black has definitely energized the black community. A great portion of the black community has never voted before, yet they are registering en masse for this election, and I guarantee that most of them aren't registering to vote for John McCaine. So a portion of his voting base would be lost if his skin was white, but the ideas that drive his platform (hope, change, bla bla bla) would still appeal to a lot of people after Bush's 8 years of nonsense, like Apple said.

[The Overlord]

Obama's race in this campaign is definitely both a pro and a con...he'll gain votes simply on the grounds that he's black and he'll lose some too.

The smart voters will look past that crap and will vote for valid reasons, and sad to say, much of the world appears smarter than us. The race is fairly close here, but in virtually every other nation polled, Obama wins by a landslide.

A lot of us here just don't get it...but of course many corners of the world get it. They get it because they've been on the receiving and of the GOP's war and propaganda machine. Too many people here live in a damn fishbowl.  >:(

[Mathim]

The only thing about his skin color I look at is the fact that it sort of represents change and transition-if he isn't one of the typical types of presidents, that's got to be a good sign since so few presidents actually did any good.

All I'm concerned about is people who should economically vote for someone who isn't in the same mold as Bush, but will vote for the Republicans because of their prejudice.

[Caeli]

Well, you also have to remember that if he weren't black, he might have votes of those who DO care about his race.

I know of more than a few Asian-American voters (mostly of the older generation), relatives as well as family friends, acquaintances, and the like, who have vocally expressed their dislike of him because he's black. They didn't say it in so many words, but it's easy to see if you read between the lines.

[Moondazed]

Americans like to think we're so evolved, but times like this show our true colors... bigoted and ignorant, and sadly I wonder if the majority of that ignorance isn't out of sheer laziness *sigh*

Oh!  Sorry about that... *slides soapbox back under the table*

[The Overlord]

The only thing about his skin color I look at is the fact that it sort of represents change and transition-if he isn't one of the typical types of presidents, that's got to be a good sign since so few presidents actually did any good.

Where I think race/color matters is that you have to be mindful that Obama isn't just black. He has a black Kenyan father and a white mother from the heart of Kansas...if anything Obama is transitional in politics because in a sense he's the face of America. Multiracial is a pretty common thing here, even if some people don't like to acknowledge it.

[Moondazed]

Living in rural central Virginia, my sad observation is that an awful lot of people aren't smart enough to look into his heritage... he looks black, so to them he IS black.  Pathetic, really :(

[The Overlord]

Americans like to think we're so evolved, but times like this show our true colors... bigoted and ignorant, and sadly I wonder if the majority of that ignorance isn't out of sheer laziness *sigh*

What it shows is that the American pie consists of two major slices, besides any smaller segments. There is a large slice that's grown tolerance of racial, ethnic, religious diversity, and then there's the uneducated backwater portion that we still have to deal with. They are the proverbial elephant in the room that are an embarrassment to the rest of us who want us to be perceived better on the world scene.

[Paradox]

Even over here on the east coast of Virginia, people feel the same way; however, even the black community thinks that he is entirely black. They conveniently ignore his white parentage. I work with a primarily black crew, and I spend a fair amount of time in urban environments. From this, I've observed that a good percentage of the black voters here (key word: HERE. Don't bitch at me for making generalizations, because that's not what I did) have rallied behind him for no other reason than the fact that his skin is black.

[The Overlord]

Even over here on the east coast of Virginia, people feel the same way; however, even the black community thinks that he is entirely black. They conveniently ignore his white parentage.

And of course this bats us straight back to square one. All black, half black, what the hell does it matter. We really are a pathetic little species, when you come down to it. 

[The Overlord]

You know I keep having to quote or invoke this guy, but he possessed such a powerfully compelling and pragmatic truth abut things. Millions have heard listened to his words and heard what he was saying, but clearly we need more to do it. This thing makes me emotional every time I see it.

[National Acrobat]

Living in rural central Virginia, my sad observation is that an awful lot of people aren't smart enough to look into his heritage... he looks black, so to them he IS black.  Pathetic, really :(

Not only that, but here in Central Va. it's pretty much the Bible Belt, and to that extent, race is one of only a few factors. Aside from Northern Virginia, our state is pretty conservative. The high ratio of military members in the Tidewater area tends to vote conservative as well, so while race I think is an issue in Virginia, it's just one of a couple important factors here.

I also think, given the experience we had where Wilder barely won office even though the polls suggested he had a huge lead over Coleman, that the race here in Virginia is actually closer than it is, simply because people when answering pollster's questions, won't admit certain things.

[Paradox]

I live in the Tidewater area, in the city that has the largest naval base in the world. I work on base. The younger sailors definitely seem to favor Obama, simply because they don't want to wind up in four more years of war.

[National Acrobat]

I live in the Tidewater area, in the city that has the largest naval base in the world. I work on base. The younger sailors definitely seem to favor Obama, simply because they don't want to wind up in four more years of war.

I'll be curious to see how the vote pans out in Tidewater. I have three co-workers here in central Virginia who have kids that have just recently enlisted in the last year and have all shipped out. Two to Iraq, one to Korea. All three of those coworkers and their families vote republican. It's an interesting election, to say the least.

In fact, out of the 25 of us that work in this company, 22 are voting republican, 2 Democrat and 1 Independent.

[Ket]

The younger sailors definitely seem to favor Obama, simply because they don't want to wind up in four more years of war.

That they do.  We're all over and done with it.  While the war affects the Army and Marine Corps more, there are still sailors who are sent out on individual augmentee assignments.  The younger sailors, and the younger voting population as a whole (from what I've seen in my contacts around town - I live in Tidewater as well) seem to favor Obama, mainly on premise of ending the war.

There are those of us though, who are leery about having a democrat in office.  Through all the crap and bs that has occured with the Bush administration, and even with this annoying war we're still in, there have been some major benefit changes to the military and military families.   Because of Bush, our housing allowance has greatly improved, keeping up with rising housing costs instead of constantly going down and forcing us to live in lower and lower standards.  Though they tend to not amount to more than a few hundred dollars a year, yearly raises have been consistent.  Those are just a couple of things that have occurred over the past eight years, among the many.  I've talked to some sailors who served during the Clinton Administration, my roommate included.  They are wondering about whether these benefits will continue, or if things will be changed again.  The policies Bush has put into effect, especially regarding our pay, are not open ended. 

I have noticed that the black population does tend to gravitate more toward Obama, regardless of what he says.  Personally, I could care less what a politician's race is.  As supposedly 'the greatest country in the world', such a thing shouldn't matter.  However it does.  Not only have I seen race be an issue among the less educated and poorer communities, but I have seen staunch debates on the topic from the well educated and wealthy as well.  Prejudice knows no financial nor educational boundaries. 

Do I feel this country is ready for Obama, or any other candidate who isn't Caucasian?  Sadly, I do not.  As glad as I am to see Bush's term in power come to an end, I am wary of moving forward.  I fear turmoil ahead, regardless of who is elected. 

[Zakharra]

 The color of his skin means nothing. It's the content of his character and voting record that I don't like.  I'm also very glad the rest of the world does not have the ability to vote in a US election.

[Moondazed]

I'm not madly in love with Obama, but McCain is an outright liar and has no idea how the middle class lives, so there's no way I can vote for him.  McCain's ideas favor big business and oil, period.  No, thank you!

[Phaia]

Character too me is more important then anything else for a president!!

Senator Obama has, to me, not shown the sort of character I want in my president!!

In a Movie from 1995 "The America President" there was a quote I still remember;
'Being President of this country is entirely about character.' http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0112346/quotes

I do not see Senator Obama having the character to be president.

[adventurer]

I am clearly pro Obama for a long time.

Why? He understands globalization.He can listen. He can ask questions.  See Interview with Fareed Zakaria and his bio. Obama has transpartisan view and even pragmatic one. Every new US president has to face tough realties. True. And when poetry of elections is gone the prose of real politics started.

When? January 1st 2009 when the last fireworks are over...

Speaking from Europe however. I saw the overhwelming resonance Barack had in Berlin and other European places.

David Brooks summarizes it in NYT:

Thinking about Obama

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/17/opinion/17brooks.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[Moondazed]

I'm sorry, Phaia, I used to really like John McCain, but once he lost the primary to Bush he sold out to stay in the party.  I am nothing short of disgusted by his behavior in this campaign.  Have you looked at FactCheck?  They're non-partisan and track factual accuracy, and you don't have to look far to see that McCain's campaign has no qualms about lying outright.  I know politicians exaggerate and say what people want to hear, but that man lies outright.  That is NOT a sign of character to me.

[adventurer]

 An excllent summary of Fareed Zakaria:

The Case for Barack Obama

Obama is pushing to change the parameters of the country's comfort zone. That's leadership.

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/articles.html

[National Acrobat]

Apparently it still matters, as it's a lead item on the front page of the Times-Dispatch this morning, and on their website also, although it's much more prominent a story on their actual Newspaper.

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-content-articles-RTD-2008-10-26-0135.html

I heard a pair of really good comments about the racial issue on talk radio this week in Richmond.

One was from an African American commentator who urged African Americans not to get complacent if Obama is elected, thinking that they had 'arrived' and the struggle would be over for racial equality.

The other was from a talk show host who asked 'why is it if I don't vote for Obama I am racist, when it's his policies I don't like?'

[Oniya]

I've spent much of this season listening to (not watching) the various campaign ads.  Were it not for the fact that Obama has an ethnic sound to it, I would have very few clues to his race.  Of the ads I have heard, the overwhelming majority of the 'My opponent is EEEEVIL!  EEEEVIL, I tell you! _{(So vote for me.)}' ads have come from the Republican side.

I have a personal dislike for ad hominem tactics.  In my experience, it usually means that you have nothing better to offer than an attack on the other guy.  If it was broken down as 'Candidate A' vs. 'Candidate B', the Republicans have done very little to attract my vote.

[The Overlord]

An excllent summary of Fareed Zakaria:

The Case for Barack Obama

Obama is pushing to change the parameters of the country's comfort zone. That's leadership.

http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/articles.html

Damn good article. I think this guy has the situation spot on for the most part.

[Moondazed]

I've spent much of this season listening to (not watching) the various campaign ads.  Were it not for the fact that Obama has an ethnic sound to it, I would have very few clues to his race.  Of the ads I have heard, the overwhelming majority of the 'My opponent is EEEEVIL!  EEEEVIL, I tell you! _{(So vote for me.)}' ads have come from the Republican side.

I have a personal dislike for ad hominem tactics.  In my experience, it usually means that you have nothing better to offer than an attack on the other guy.  If it was broken down as 'Candidate A' vs. 'Candidate B', the Republicans have done very little to attract my vote.

Also, though, I think it's sad how many people make no effort whatsoever to look into the platform of the candidate, instead relying on their 30-second ads to tell them all they need to know.  I'm not saying you do this, Oniya, it's just that your mention of TV ads brought this to mind. 

That makes it even more pathetic when they waste those opportunities attacking the other person instead of sharing their ideas.  I'm grateful for information sources that make an effort not be biased, especially when they source every fact they cite and don't use 'spin' language.  The facts are out there, it just takes some effort to find them.

[Oniya]

Also, though, I think it's sad how many people make no effort whatsoever to look into the platform of the candidate, instead relying on their 30-second ads to tell them all they need to know.  I'm not saying you do this, Oniya, it's just that your mention of TV ads brought this to mind. 

That makes it even more pathetic when they waste those opportunities attacking the other person instead of sharing their ideas.  I'm grateful for information sources that make an effort not be biased, especially when they source every fact they cite and don't use 'spin' language.  The facts are out there, it just takes some effort to find them.

Very true, and I didn't take it that way.  Still, the way that they choose to advertise their positions (or not) tells me a lot about their preferred method of interaction.  Resorting to name-calling doesn't give me a lot of hope for McCain's foreign policy.

[Moondazed]

I completely agree.

[ryokothedemoness137]

If Obama were white, Hillary Clinton would have been the Democratic nominee.

[Moondazed]

I'm not sure that a woman running wouldn't run into the same problem as a non-caucasian running, because the same type of person who would base their vote on the color of someone's skin would likely handle gender similarly :)  Who knows. 

[Oniya]

There were people who voted against Mondale because of Ferraro.  Of course, those same people are probably flipping a coin this year.

[Trieste]

If Obama were white, Hillary Clinton would have been the Democratic nominee.

Mmm... I don't think so. I think Hillary went all crazyleftist and scared away a lot of her constituency. I blame her solidly for those people who went from being Clinton supporters to now thinking it's a good idea tovote for Palin because she's 'the more moderate but still feminist choice'. And yes, I have heard someone describe her that way. Hillary Clinton has a whole lot to answer for for her antics for those of us who feel she blew it with her reprehensible campaign. And she has only herself to blame. She did not lose because of race; she lost because she was a bitch.

And if McCain loses - and it's looking like he might - that will be the main reason why. We have seen a lot of people swinging toward Obama in the past few months, and it's really difficult to chalk those numbers up to race. The way Colin Powell put it elsewhere, "If I were going to vote for him because he was black, I would have come out and told people that six months ago." The numbers he's getting now are not because of race, but because people are believing his campaign. The fact that he has no experience doesn't matter to people as much as the fact that McCain can't stop talking about Joe the friggen Plumber.

[ryokothedemoness137]

The reason I said Hillary would have been the nominee is not because I think her primary loss was caused by Obama's race (or hers) or her gender, but because a white politician with Obama's level of experience wouldn't have even been given a second look in the primaries.  A white with Obama's views, even with Obama's eloquence, and that little experience would have been stuck in Dennis Kucinich territory as far as the percentage of the vote he could attract in the primaries.

[PhantomPistoleer]

I think that Obama is what this country needs.

It's like he read Plato's Republic and decided to embody the leadership in there.

And LOL about McCain having more character than Obama.

[ryokothedemoness137]

A Platonic Guardian?   ::)

If that's what Obama means to be, then the right-wing kooks are right!  Who will guard the Guardians?

[Inerrant Lust]

The reason I said Hillary would have been the nominee is not because I think her primary loss was caused by Obama's race (or hers) or her gender, but because a white politician with Obama's level of experience wouldn't have even been given a second look in the primaries.  A white with Obama's views, even with Obama's eloquence, and that little experience would have been stuck in Dennis Kucinich territory as far as the percentage of the vote he could attract in the primaries.

Kennedy ran on less and got elected. Hey, he was morally abominable to his wife, too. :P

[Apple of Eris]

apparently, to those who answered the exit polls and says yes, race did matter in this election, a slight majority of those voted for Obama. *shrug*

Either way, in my opinion, the better candidtae won. I'm glad that people, and not just the young voters, but elderly voters, well educated voters, even people who never voted before turned out and voted; and that to the majority of voters, the candidates race wasn't a factor at all. That makes me have some hope for our country. :)

[Paradox]

apparently, to those who answered the exit polls and says yes, race did matter in this election, a slight majority of those voted for Obama. *shrug*

Well if you think about it, "does race matter?" is an awfully broad question. Answering yes could mean that the candidate's race will prevent you from voting for him-- or it could mean that his race will be the deciding factor that makes you vote for him. The people who voted for Obama because he was black would answer yes, in addition to the people you would expect (the ones for whom race will keep them from voting for him).

[Inkidu]

The only thing that's got me bugged about the race issue. Is not, "Who voted against Obama just because he was black." it the, "Who voted for Obama just because he was black." I would have the same qualms about it if McCain was elected as well. :S It strikes me as a little off-putting.

[Oniya]

Kennedy ran on less and got elected. Hey, he was morally abominable to his wife, too. :P

A lot about this campaign seemed to echo the Kennedy/Nixon race.  There was the youth and 'inexperience' issue, the fact that Obama seemed a lot more comfortable around the camera, and the issue about the candidate possibly being seen as a 'minority' (in Kennedy's case, a Roman Catholic).

[Inkidu]

A lot about this campaign seemed to echo the Kennedy/Nixon race.  There was the youth and 'inexperience' issue, the fact that Obama seemed a lot more comfortable around the camera, and the issue about the candidate possibly being seen as a 'minority' (in Kennedy's case, a Roman Catholic).

Kennedy also threw us into the Vietnam war. So maybe he wasn't the best choice for president. :P

[Humble Scribe]

I'm also very glad the rest of the world does not have the ability to vote in a US election.

If only the US paid the rest of the world the same compliment.

He can only be an improvement on the incumbent (McCain probably would have been too, for that matter), and having an articulate centrist in the White House looks good from over here. It's also hard not to be moved by the historic and symbolic nature of his achievement.

[Inkidu]

If only the US paid the rest of the world the same compliment.

He can only be an improvement on the incumbent (McCain probably would have been too, for that matter), and having an articulate centrist in the White House looks good from over here. It's also hard not to be moved by the historic and symbolic nature of his achievement.

That comes from World War II, we do technically have the right to police the rest of the world. More or less. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying it's there. :|

[Kazae]

Just something I want to throw out there.

I support Obama based on his stance on Alternative Energy (and the fact that he can SAY cellulosic ethanol - my gods, a man who can actually SPEAK and not sound as if he was working the remedial English courses), his take on personal responsibility (yes, we want to help you - we want you to at least make the effort yourself, as well), and his vantage point of where WE have not done our job, ourselves (personal freaking responsibility!  Telling your kids to turn off the game console!  NOT blaming it on the gaming industry itself!  RAISING your kids!), made me respect the man immensely.  His ability to accept critique leveled against him, and answer questions, as well the very blatant humility involved in how he carries himself, are what swayed me.

I voted in 2000.  I voted in 2004.  And I sure as hell voted this year.

My vote in 2000 was for Gore - his education, knowledge about his particular obsessions, and zeal for his beliefs moved me.  Having lived in Texas when Bush was Governor, I already loathed the man.  Kerry, I'll admit, was a blatant desire to be rid of Bush. 

But this year, I was strongly voting FOR a candidate, and not 'against' one.

A footnote of importance I have to make - I do not like Hillary Clinton, not because of her gender, but because of her views and her stance and the fact that I in many ways see her as a sizable portion of the downfall of Bill Clinton.  Her view of the gaming industry appalls me, and contributed to my growing disgust with Lieberman following 2004.  Her exceedingly unctuous personal manner put me ill at ease, and left me extremely cold.  Her supporters put me off by making things about gender, instead of the issues that I care about; I spent a good amount of time arguing with my fellow Obama supporters because they kept trying to make the issue about race, instead of, well, the issues. 

I'd gladly vote a woman for President who supported what I support; however, Hillary is not that woman.  Neither, for that matter, was Cynthia McKinney, who disgusts me to no end, and don't even get me started on Condileeza Rice (yes, I know she didn't run, but had she, I would sure as hell not have voted for her).

[Moondazed]

*has a delightfully erotic twinge at the thought of the word nuclear, properly pronounced, even though I'm against nuclear energy*

[Oniya]

*has a delightfully erotic twinge at the thought of the word nuclear, properly pronounced, even though I'm against nuclear energy*

Think of it in terms of the 'nuclear family'.  Yes, having a village is nice, but there's no substitute for that close kernel of support.  ;)

[Humble Scribe]

That comes from World War II, we do technically have the right to police the rest of the world. More or less. I'm not saying it's right I'm saying it's there. :|

I must have missed that piece of legislation...  ???

[Chris Brady]

What do you think the UN is?  NATO?  The U.S. CREATED the UN, with the support of the major 'Allies' of the era, and they spearheaded the effort to prevent another 'World War'.  So technically, YES, the U.S. does.

And on an international level, most countries are HAPPY for it.

Otherwise, they'd have to blame themselves or each other for every invasion attempt to get some sort of resource.  Instead, they can scapegoat the U.S. instead.

They go in to Iraq?  It's their fault and all they want is the oil.

They DON'T go?  Then the U.S. are bastards because they're letting people suffer.

As for Obama, personally, I think no matter who won this election, they're screwed.  This was a bad year for it.  And worse, Obama seems like a nice guy.  Nice guys NEVER do well in politics, because Oil and Big Business own the country, and if you go against them, then things start going wrong.

[Inkidu]

Everyone hates big brother.

I love how people think that big business is just some nameless evil entity. It's all publicly traded so anyone who owns one share of oil stocks or big business is evil I suppose. Business like those are really in the hands of the people, more than one would think. Anyway sorry for getting off track.

[Zakharra]

Everyone hates big brother.

I love how people think that big business is just some nameless evil entity. It's all publicly traded so anyone who owns one share of oil stocks or big business is evil I suppose. Business like those are really in the hands of the people, more than one would think. Anyway sorry for getting off track.

+1

[The Overlord]

I must have missed that piece of legislation...  ???

I believe you'll find it in the archives right next to Manifest Destiny.  ;)

[Inkidu]

I believe you'll find it in the archives right next to Manifest Destiny.  ;)

See, another good idea. Then we wouldn't have to deal with NAFTA. Oh well, hindsight 20/20.

[Apple of Eris]

See, another good idea. Then we wouldn't have to deal with NAFTA. Oh well, hindsight 20/20.

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking and don't actually believe the ridiculous stuff you post.

[The Overlord]

You're joking right? Please tell me you're joking and don't actually believe the ridiculous stuff you post.

Actually, I believe he does.  :-\