WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[HairyHeretic]

I'm pretty sure I still have ALL my previous edition rulebooks around, and what I don't have would probably take about 20 minutes to find online, the net being what it is :P

And after playing this long I could probably write my own hybrid rule system without too much work :)

I saw this today

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/23/new-warhammer-40000-the-galaxy-map/

so it looks like the universe is being shaken up a bit. Imperium Nihilus? I wonder if the increased warpstorms means that Chaos is going to take centre stage as the Big Bad in the new edition?

[TheGlyphstone]

I'm so confused. GW is actually advancing the timeline. What is this madness?

[HairyHeretic]

I guess Wrath of Magnus and the Gathering Storm books were setting that up.

[wander]

Death Guard has their own entry in the Chaos Factions on the 40k site, along with the Thousand Sons, so it looks like those teased models of the DG will be in line with releasing for 8th and that. The Legions will likely get seperate codexes from the CSMs, a lil like the Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Space Wolves et al.

The Sisters of Battle got noted seperate from the Imperial Agents on the Faction page, plus both them and Inquisition have been added to Shadow War, so I can see that both will be getting new plastic models to go with new codexes, with the Sisters hopefully getting their own full proper codex for just them as an actual full release now.

I'd like to see what the Imperium will shift to under Rowboat's dictatorship... It seems the Inquisition, Adeptus Sororitas and Grey Knights are still out and about, despite Papa Smurf being just as happy with the Ecclesiarchy as Emps in Text-to-Speech... Maybe the Mechanicus can be strong armed to share the wealth a bit more and we can see some fun new toys coming out.  :-)

'Course, seeing some ForgeWorld Chaos stuff at a more affordable price would be good too.  ;D

[HairyHeretic]

Well, Khorne got the KDdex, Tzeentch got Wrath of Magnus, so it wouldn't stretch the imagination too far to see Nurgle get a book. Mortarian could potentially make a comeback.

Slaanesh is a wild card. The whole sex aspect that is so easily played up for a mature audience won't fit with a game aimed to kiddies. They could redo Slaanesh with the reset, change the focus to excess and sensation, the sonic weaponry and combat drugs and the likes of Forge Worlds kakophoni. Now is probably the best time to do it.

Black Legion previously got their own dex, and all the Legions got the Traitor Legions book. I'd like to see something like the Traitor Legions done under 8th edition, and expand it so each Legion has a couple of unique units as well as some unique rules, combat doctrines or whatever angle they go for. Maybe expand Chaos out with Rengade Guard and Dark Mechanicum. An upgrade kit added on top of existing IG/AdMech lines would make them fairly viable, in the same way the Genestealer cult upgrade packs were done.

[wander]

Yep, yep. And apparently Mortarion will be showing as that scythe at the end of the DG video is his, not a new Typhus model.

I can see Slaanesh being tweaked as you say. *nods* Same with the Traitor Legions, it's nice to get some competitive Chaos currently, though still it'd be nice to see them get some proper love and kick ass like in the old days.

There's FW's The Lost and The Damned list, having them as a proper codex now for 8th edition with non-FW decently priced models would be nice. Same as some Dark Mechanicum, both done just like you mention like the Genestealer Cult add-on sprues.

However, as awesome and doable as that all is, on the other hand this is still Geedubs we're talking about. They're gonna drop the ball somewhere, whether by cheesing up another force to undercut Chaos or some price-hiking for important pieces for the armies. With Legions getting more love, there's very likely going to be some unique and pricey models that will be pretty much needed for a viable army methinks, especially as older models start getting taken off the shelves to make room for the new stuff.

[greenknight]

I also don't really see the new rules creating more of a balance, if anything it's going to make things a lot more cheesy. I'd like to see more of a balance of cost between Toughness and Strength. So far in 7th edition few armies are over T3 and it costs far more points to put up defence than it does to grab high Str weapons. Now armour penalties are coming back and unless point costs change to reflect that, balance is even more out of the window. The costs of weapons and kill team members in Shadow War has not eased my worry on that.

On the subject of points, unless 8th is going to take a decidiedly different scale, a Space Marine mechanized demi-company needs to be the basic points value of an army. From there, things need to scale up and down accordingly.

And how would adding Space-Skaven affect the Skitaari, who have the irradiated flintlock runner schtick of the Skaven down-pat?

What about the Ratskin Renega
HERESY!!!!!



:P

[VonHellsing]

Well, Khorne got the KDdex, Tzeentch got Wrath of Magnus, so it wouldn't stretch the imagination too far to see Nurgle get a book. Mortarian could potentially make a comeback.

Slaanesh is a wild card. The whole sex aspect that is so easily played up for a mature audience won't fit with a game aimed to kiddies. They could redo Slaanesh with the reset, change the focus to excess and sensation, the sonic weaponry and combat drugs and the likes of Forge Worlds kakophoni. Now is probably the best time to do it.

Black Legion previously got their own dex, and all the Legions got the Traitor Legions book. I'd like to see something like the Traitor Legions done under 8th edition, and expand it so each Legion has a couple of unique units as well as some unique rules, combat doctrines or whatever angle they go for. Maybe expand Chaos out with Rengade Guard and Dark Mechanicum. An upgrade kit added on top of existing IG/AdMech lines would make them fairly viable, in the same way the Genestealer cult upgrade packs were done.

I can't imagine them changing Slaanesh too much. What you described is, for the most part, kinda how Emperor's Children CSM already operate. They've already been dumbing down Slaaneshi deamons for years now, especially the models for Deamonettes. The only thing I can actually imagine them pulling is the Forge World Keeper of Secrets model, sadly. Seriously, it's a damn good model, but it's still pretty racy. I do hope they buff Lucius though, considering he can get his ass handed to him in challenges (where he's meant to be, mind you) by other characters. Maybe not make him a total beatstick like Kharn, but give him a few more tricks that puts the fight in his advantage.

With Magnus already here and Mortarion on the way, it's obvious that the other Deamon Primarchs are coming, it just depends on when and in what order. I feel like they'll act as a lynchpin for the army, i.e you have to have this model for your army to be at its best. Expect Lorgar and Perturabo to mostly give army-wide buffs and Angron able to toss around Dreadnoughts like they were toys. Fulgrim and Mortarion I can't say, probably a combination of both.

What I'm hoping for the most is at least some incentive to play vanilla CSM, maybe the player can pick a set of special rules with certain benefits and limits like with Blackshield lists in Horus Heresy. Maybe along with this they can give unmarked characters like Fabius Bile and Huron Blackheart some love.

There's FW's The Lost and The Damned list, having them as a proper codex now for 8th edition with non-FW decently priced models would be nice. Same as some Dark Mechanicum, both done just like you mention like the Genestealer Cult add-on sprues.

I want an official Lost and the Damned codex, but I'm still unsure that'll go through, considering how GW squated the Eye of Terror campaign and hasn't talk about it since while Forge World is the only one keeping it above water. What I really want to see is the potential for Chaos Sisters of Battle (despite GWs attempts to ignore and reccon them, they exist), especially Miriael Sabathiel. Even a small dataslate for Chaos Battle Sisters would be much appreciated.

Since Forge World has been hinting for years now that Mechanicum models will make it into 40K, I feel Dark Mechanicum will be a given. Hopefully it won't be Cult Mechanicus/Skitarii with gribbly bits.

[HairyHeretic]

There's a live stream going on now, they're answering some questions about the game.

Tanks are apparently losing armour values and getting a model type stat line.

https://www.facebook.com/WarhammerTVteam/?hc_ref=NEWSFEED

I'll update this with anything particularly interesting.

Every existing model will have new rules, nothing is getting squated for now.

Codexes in a similar format to current ed will be kept in the next edition.

Templates are going away.

Command points will allow you to do interesting things. The more (it sounds) that your army is built with the proper theme in mind, the more command points you get. There are 14 different force org charts, which will grant different numbers of command points.

5 books at launch, with rules for all minis
Marines
Imperium
Xenos
These will be available to buy, cost 'less than a codex'.

Full codexes will come later.

Narrative supplements will be coming later (Cities of Death , Planetstrike)

Annual (?) updates to rules , points costs etc.

They're working on an army builder app, but it won't be ready at launch.

Game will be released 'this year', but they won't give a date for now.

Two different sets of points values on launch
Power level value for narrative play, reasonably balanced
Match play gets regular points (per model, weapon, etc)

There will be new factions (available at launch I think)

As monsters / vehicles take wounds, they get weaker. Less abilities maybe?

Stats are going above 10, so new statlines.

Every weapon should be able to hurt every unit in the game.

Force org charts will allow for allies.
Taking all units from the one faction will fill out a higher ranked force org chart, which means you get more command points.

Storylines to continue to develop over time.

'Every day til the game comes out' there will be a new article up on the community site about the game.

Anyone who has bought a rulebook or codex up to 8 weeks before the new announcement being made there can get in touch with GWs support and get vouchers (replacement value by the sounds of it) since the old stuff won't be valid under the new rules. Proof of purchase needed, obviously. Not sure if getting them from retailers rather than GW directly would make a difference.

And thats it.

If you've any questions, ask, and I'll answer what I know / remember.

[Oniya]

Sounds like this would be the fight song if you play them.

FunFact(TM):  This track was written with Michael Moorcock, inspired by his Eternal Champion series.  (The phrase 'Veterans of the psychic wars' shows up in the first Hawkmoon trilogy.)

[HairyHeretic]

http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2017/04/40k-live-faq-round-up.html

Slightly better organised than my scribblings :)

[wander]

Templates are going away.

That's an interesting development... I wonder how stuff like flamers will be handled. I expect they'll do damage ratings and mortal wounds in a similar way to Age of Sigmar (aka for example flamer may do 3 mortal wounds on a unit it hits).

5 books at launch, with rules for all minis
Marines
Imperium
Xenos
These will be available to buy, cost 'less than a codex'.

That Marines book is probably Chaos Space Marines? I only mention as the Faction page of the 40k site split the factions into 3 categories; Chaos, Imperium and Xenos. Unless they're throwing the Loyalist and Chaos guys together in one book and keeping Imperium aside for Militarum, Inquisition, Sororitas et al...

Annual (?) updates to rules , points costs etc.

They're working on an army builder app, but it won't be ready at launch.

Called it.

As monsters / vehicles take wounds, they get weaker. Less abilities maybe?

This is how monsters and large vehicles are dealt with in Age of Sigmar. Usually the Movement rate and number of attacks a weapon has slowly go down the more Wounds they take. There's a table under their statline to show how Wounds affect the model. Other things that can be affected are to hit and to wound rolls or casting difficulties for powers. It depends on the model in question.

'Every day til the game comes out' there will be a new article up on the community site about the game.

Makes me think the game is coming out pretty soon, I'd hazard June or July. Think about the content they'd allow out and what articles they could possibly write. Plus the 8 week announcement on the codexes makes me think maybe late July at the very latest.

[HairyHeretic]

That's an interesting development... I wonder how stuff like flamers will be handled. I expect they'll do damage ratings and mortal wounds in a similar way to Age of Sigmar (aka for example flamer may do 3 mortal wounds on a unit it hits).

Yeah, probably xd6 hits instead of a template. Quick and easy.

That Marines book is probably Chaos Space Marines? I only mention as the Faction page of the 40k site split the factions into 3 categories; Chaos, Imperium and Xenos. Unless they're throwing the Loyalist and Chaos guys together in one book and keeping Imperium aside for Militarum, Inquisition, Sororitas et al...

My guess is
Marines
Chaos
All other Imperial forces (AdMech, Inquisition, SoB, IG)
Eldar (all)
Xenos (Others - Orks, Necrons, Tau)

This is how monsters and large vehicles are dealt with in Age of Sigmar. Usually the Movement rate and number of attacks a weapon has slowly go down the more Wounds they take. There's a table under their statline to show how Wounds affect the model. Other things that can be affected are to hit and to wound rolls or casting difficulties for powers. It depends on the model in question.

I'd say that may be what they're planning then.

Makes me think the game is coming out pretty soon, I'd hazard June or July. Think about the content they'd allow out and what articles they could possibly write. Plus the 8 week announcement on the codexes makes me think maybe late July at the very latest.

The 8 week thing I took to mean the 8 weeks before now. If you bought, say, the Genestealer Cultdex a month ago, and found out today it was going to be useless in a few more months, you'd be pissed, right? After today though, and the nature of the net being what it is, everyone is going to know those old dexes won't be useable, so if you buy it next week .. no refund?

That's my guess anyway.

[HairyHeretic]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/24/just-bought-a-codex-dont-worry-weve-got-you-covered/

You can claim a voucher no matter where you bought your codex and/or rulebook, as long as you have your proof of purchase and it’s dated between the 25th of February 2017 and the 22nd of April 2017.

[wander]

As how the monsters and vehicles would work, you can see how Age of Sigmar does it here in this datafile on the new Arkanaut Frigate as a potential example;

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/arkanaut-frigate_ENG.pdf

[HairyHeretic]

So damage will result in slower movement and less attacks? That seems reasonable.

[wander]

Well, it's an assumption based on what's been said... Until we see what these new statlines look like (they sound pretty different based on the new info) it's a safe bet with all the AoS coming in with the older edition stuff to base it on what AoS is currently doing with vehicles and monsters.

I quite like the idea of it. There's something about vehicles in 7th edition that rubs me the wrong way, so having them more Age of Sigmar would really make me want to put more on the table at least (course as I'm playing Death Guard, I am 95% sure I'll get more of these fangled Command Points for foot-slogging the whole army... ^^;;;).

As an aside, wow that Frigate has a pretty shabby stats-line... 4+ to hit? 5+ save? Bravery 7? Fair enough it has a massive 14 wounds... But... That for 280pts? Bleeeh...

[HairyHeretic]

True, but getting worked up speculating is all part of the new edition experience ;)

I've seen a variety of different stuff used for vehicles. Take a look at this one, which I think is late Rogue Trader era

http://warpstoneflux.blogspot.ie/2015/07/rules-of-yesteryear-vehicle-damage.html

You laid a crosshair over the area you were aiming for, rolled to see if the shot deviated (so you might still hit a different part of the target), roll for penetration, then damage on the specific part hit. Slow and cumbersome, but quite fun when you got those lucky shots off. I can recall one game where I managed to kill 3 Leman Russes with a single heavy flamer hit. I fried the driver in the first, it moved out of control and hit a second, which caused and explosion that destroyed those two. The 17" blast (yay random high rolls) killed about 20-30 IG, and hit the sponson on a third Russ. The ammo on that cooked off, blowing it up. There is now a 2 foot wide gap in the Imperial lines, and one Chaos Terminator looking at his heavy flamer and going "I LIKE you."  ;D

From 3rd ed onwards, there seems to have been a design philosophy towards simplication and abstraction. Not in and off itself a bad thing, as it makes game a lot quicker. But each weapon having its own characteristics in 1st and 2ed ed, it felt more ... involved. Do I take the sword that lets me parry, or the chainaxe with the better armour save modifier? Plus setting people on fire with flamers was a great way of neutralising uberpowerful characters. I had a Champion in one game took out both Kharne and Arhiman by setting them on fire, since the rules were once you were on fire you couldn't do anything until the flames went out (or friends would put you out). The flamer didn't really do any damage, it just stopped them from rampaging instead :)

I don't know the AoS rules, so I can't comment on their quality. I stopped playing WFB a few editions ago. I do know there was a lot of initial negativity towards it, which I'll admit I shared, due to the destruction of the WFB game world. I think a big part of the community fear is that the same could happen with 40k, and as rich and detailed as the 40k universe is, I don't want to see that destroyed, or Slaanesh sidelined to protect the kiddes from dangerous boobies  :P

[VonHellsing]

True, but getting worked up speculating is all part of the new edition experience ;)

I've seen a variety of different stuff used for vehicles. Take a look at this one, which I think is late Rogue Trader era

http://warpstoneflux.blogspot.ie/2015/07/rules-of-yesteryear-vehicle-damage.html

You laid a crosshair over the area you were aiming for, rolled to see if the shot deviated (so you might still hit a different part of the target), roll for penetration, then damage on the specific part hit. Slow and cumbersome, but quite fun when you got those lucky shots off. I can recall one game where I managed to kill 3 Leman Russes with a single heavy flamer hit. I fried the driver in the first, it moved out of control and hit a second, which caused and explosion that destroyed those two. The 17" blast (yay random high rolls) killed about 20-30 IG, and hit the sponson on a third Russ. The ammo on that cooked off, blowing it up. There is now a 2 foot wide gap in the Imperial lines, and one Chaos Terminator looking at his heavy flamer and going "I LIKE you."  ;D

From 3rd ed onwards, there seems to have been a design philosophy towards simplication and abstraction. Not in and off itself a bad thing, as it makes game a lot quicker. But each weapon having its own characteristics in 1st and 2ed ed, it felt more ... involved. Do I take the sword that lets me parry, or the chainaxe with the better armour save modifier? Plus setting people on fire with flamers was a great way of neutralising uberpowerful characters. I had a Champion in one game took out both Kharne and Arhiman by setting them on fire, since the rules were once you were on fire you couldn't do anything until the flames went out (or friends would put you out). The flamer didn't really do any damage, it just stopped them from rampaging instead :)

I don't know the AoS rules, so I can't comment on their quality. I stopped playing WFB a few editions ago. I do know there was a lot of initial negativity towards it, which I'll admit I shared, due to the destruction of the WFB game world. I think a big part of the community fear is that the same could happen with 40k, and as rich and detailed as the 40k universe is, I don't want to see that destroyed, or Slaanesh sidelined to protect the kiddes from dangerous boobies  :P

I'm torn on a lot of this, to be honest. As someone who joined 40K near the tail-end of 6th Edition, what I appreciated most was that despite how complex the game already was, they tried their best to simplify the mechanics into a more manageable and understandable way that anyone could understand with a little reading and experience.

However, a sense of randomness was somewhat lacking. Sure, missing a shot or not wounding/penetrating something is always a possibility, but it lacked a bit more energy and excitement. What you just described aptly represents the chaos of battle in the 41st millennium. You can have a plan, you can prepare for nearly any situation, but one bad thing could cause a domino effect of destruction and mayhem.

On the flip side, this can and will be infuriating for many a player who watch expensive units and well thought out plans literally blow up in their face within the span of a turn due to a lucky roll or two, especially if it's a really powerful named character. Using your example, we have Kharn and Ahriman; former First Captains of their respective Legions, lords of Chaos clothed in immense power that have plundered hundreds of worlds. They are feared across the galaxy, where the simple uttering of their names can make even the bravest warriors shudder in fear... And they're set on fire and flail around for a couple turns, being useless all the while. If I were that player, I would most certainly be pissed.

https://1d4chan.org/wiki/Warhammer:_Age_of_Sigmar#Rules
Here's a good chunk of the rules somewhat summarized. I'm not even going to try and deny how biased this is, but it at least gives you insight into why many people hated it besides the scrapping of the Fantasy setting.

[HairyHeretic]

I love the background to 40k, the setting and the universe, the factions (less some questionable fluff written by certain designers), but the rules could use work. Simplicity is good, but taken too far it becomes blandness. Variety is good, but taken too far rulesets become unwieldy and games take forever. Striking the balance is always going to be tricky. As editions bed in, people will find ways to abuse them. Codex creep will see the meta shift, the next dominant army appearing til things change again. It's just how it is.

Everyone is going to have their own opinions on what works well and what works poorly. I probably fall into the narrative player category, rather than the competitive one. I prefer the idea of fielding an army that looks like it could step out of one of the novels. I don't want to have to go and buy a couple of Knights in order for my army to be something other than a punching bag on the table. I like the idea of fielding a 'combined' Chaos force ,Marines, Renegades, cultists, daemons, Dark Mechanicus, all in the one army. What about a Radical Inquisitor fallen to Chaos? A Grey Sensei? Would it be competitive? No idea, but it lets me tell a story on the tabletop far better than three Knights will.

[HairyHeretic]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/

Sample unit statlines are up. Are these the same format as AoS ones?

[AngelsSonata]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2017/04/25/warhammer-40000-unit-profiles/

Sample unit statlines are up. Are these the same format as AoS ones?

Nope. The new 40K profile formats are almost identical to the original Warhammer Fantasy Battle stat-lines. Only they've taken the Initiative stat out.

[wander]

Yup.

Also, Hairy... That Arkanaut pdf I linked is what the AoS statlines look like as a whole. That wasn't a sample of part of their sheet, it was the whole thing. AoS uses rules based on you'll always have the same to hit and to wound for attacks, unless another unit puts a penalty on you or someone from your side gives that unit/model a bonus. It's neat and simple as you don't need to flick through the rules and refer to tables.

I'd like to see what weapons profiles look like next. Seems they may be similar to Shadow War given these statlines. Seems like my thought on some weapons doing multiple damage is confirmed with this article.

I like WS getting a standard roll with BS. The one thing I found annoying was referring the rulebook when in assault to check the DC for a roll because of the differences in WS across the board. Simplified, though I like this simplification.

[HairyHeretic]

The BS I can understand being a fixed value, but WS always made more sense in being comparative. After all, it's going to be easier to hit someone less skilled than you, as opposed to someone more skilled.

We should see the weapon stat lines tomorrow, and get more of an idea how it compares to AoS and/or SW:A then.

[wander]

I'm glad points for things have been shifted about and I'm also glad to see multiple wounds on things like the Dreadnought, making them more interesting to field. When things settle down, I'm really gonna take a hard look at my 500pt Death Guard list when boosting them up to 750/1000pts for 8th edition rules.

My main worry is if offence will still be far cheaper to implement than defence, as it currently is in 7th edition. High Str weapons are far cheaper than the Toughness or Armour that can defend against them, making some armies pretty damn cheesy and making other's far less numerous with shitty attack options to get that defence up. Having an Armour Penalty replace the old AP makes weapons even more nasty.

However if they bump the points up (comparitively, if anything I see everything becoming cheaper points-wise across the board, so more models can be sold) if you want to pack heavier heat (look to Necromunda and Shadow War for how expensive special and heavy weapons can get compared to the cheap as chips 40k rules) because of the return Armour Penalty, I'll be okay with it.

EDIT;

From Spikey Bits talking on the prior updates;

Stats will not be capped at 10 in the new edition. But everything can damage everything else, a bolter can damage a tank, but it may not be noticeable right away in the damage chart.

Seems very AoS to me.
Models basically have more wounds and a normal armour save, so they can have their Wounds chipped down by anyone that makes their to wound roll. Also some models need to take say 2 wounds before dropping to the next damage line of their datafile. To wound in AoS is a standard roll in their statline as shown upthread with the Arkanaut. However, we already know that Str v Tough will remain unchanged except the cap is now removed.

Allied forces are still viable but will work a little different, it’s going to be a keyword driven system. Abilities won’t be passed to anyone that doesn’t carry the required keywords. Death Stars usually come about from exploiting the rules and loopholes, the keywords will make it so you can’t take advantage of units that shouldn’t be grouped together.

Keywords appear in AoS. They're a way of having models that buff others to only target specific ones. For example, take this ability from the Arkanaut;

Vessel:
An Arkanaut Frigate can carry 10 Skyfarer
models, allowing them to move swiftly across
the battlefield and in relative safety.

A pretty basic thing, though gives the example I wanted... The bolded word is a keyword that the model/unit must have to feel the benefit of that ability. If you look at the bottom of the Arkanaut Company datafile, you'll see their listed keywords, along with the prior mentioned Skyfarer one in the above ability, allowing them to synergise with the Frigate.

https://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/arkanaut-company_ENG.pdf

In AoS there could be other units that serve in the army here, though if they don't have the needed keyword in their list... They don't get the buff.

Q: What are command points? A: In Matched and Narrative games, all armies must be battle-forged. There are now 14 Force Organizationcharts. If you fulfill a particular chart, you get command points, depending on size of that chart. These can be used for rerolls, interrupt charges which let’s you pick a fight, not just chargers. Can use one per turn, with no way to get them back.  Generic command points at first, faction specific ones later.

Neat to know something on these. They seem a bit like buffs you may get for a Battle-Forged army. Having Faction flavoured Command Points coming out seems pretty cool. This may be what AoS consider as Command abilities, though based on the FOC rather than what HQ model you pick to be Commander.