[Interest Check] Mutants and Masterminds 2e

[MasterMischief]

I noticed some interest in M&M in one of the group games I joined.  I am curious to see how much interest there is in the system more generally and what genres people might be interested in playing in.  Kinda feeling out what might fly here.   :-)

[Foxy DeVille]

I'm a big fan of the system. Also I'm always up for a superhero game of ye olde classic "people in spandex fighting other people in spandex" variety.

[MasterMischief]

Oddly enough, I very rarely run a straight up Four Color Supers campaign.  I am probably a bit of a genre snob, but that is a discussion for another thread.

If ten people come in and demand a Four Color campaign, I will have to reconsider my objections.   ;D

[Foxy DeVille]

I'm also a fan of period supers games, like WWII or the Cold War. Nazis and Commies make such great bad guys.

[MasterMischief]

Nazis really are the perfect villain aren't they?  They are like modern day orcs.  No one sheds a tear when you murder baby nazis.

[Kolbrandr]

I'm a big fan of M&M 2e, and there's certainly a lot you can do with it.

Genre wise?

I'd be all over a cosmic supers game with M&M 2e (something on the scale of the first Annihilation event, the Silver Surfer's series that ran for a hundred some issues in the 80s-90s, the coming of the Celestials saga in Thor, things o that nature), but anything above pl 10 150 (or at most, pl 12 180, as opposed to something like the more fluid level and point totals in things like the Worlds of Freedom straight up Kirby Fourth World homage Terminus/Furions setting) seem to be rare animals as online campaigns. The cosmic stuff and its mythic outer space operatic bombast tends to be my favourite of the genre, but getting to do supers gaming out of that seems infrequent to never.

Failing that, something like a Big 7 era JLA campaign, on the scale and scope of one.

Failing /that/, something Authority style, supers putting their hand onto the world and leaving it changed and debating the wisdom thereof and so forth.

[Cold Heritage]

I'd be interested, depending on where things go. The Authority is probably as anti-heroic/dark as I would want to go with things, and I'd join Kolbrandr in want big fat smacking gobs o' godly power - if only because my preferred archetypes, powerhouses and paragons, are points intensive builds, lacking short cuts other builds have.

[Foxy DeVille]

Kirbyesque does sound pretty cool.

[Thorn14]

I'd be up for another game. Its nice to finally get some usage of my rulebook. Was afraid it would sit, unused, like half of my gamebooks.

[yaracyrrah]

I'll put in a third vote for a high-level / cosmic game.  I've never actually been able to play in one of those.

[Wintercat]

Could be interested, I'm open to almost any idea, though I personally found Paragons and "Invincible" -comic-esque tales most interesting. Paragons being a setting book for a world where the superpowered individuals, Paragons, are only now starting to emerge and many of them aiming for more goals than just hunting down the criminals and sending them to jail or morgue.

Invincible in turn was more 'traditional' comic I suppose, a hero with flight, super-strength, alien-origin... sounding familiar hmm? Well then there's the twist, but I'll not ruin it for anyone who is eager to read the comic to themselves.

Anyway, the comic had its share of ups and downs, but one thing became clear. All it takes for 'evil' to triumph is for good men to do nothing, and things are certainly far from black and white, shades of grey enter the frame a lot of the time, and in-story a few characters openly thought about killing the villains instead of locking them up given their repeated success at breaking out again.

Anyhow, I'm interested, just need to know the Power Level and Power Points amounts and I can start cranking out ideas.

[MasterMischief]

I see high powered has a following.  Interesting, because my experience has also been no one ever runs these.  How do you challenge characters with that power?

[yaracyrrah]

I see high powered has a following.  Interesting, because my experience has also been no one ever runs these.  How do you challenge characters with that power?

That's why no one ever runs those ;-).

You challenge such characters the same way you challenge any other characters: you guess at an appropriate PL, and then you fudge the dice to make sure there's drama.  But it seems to me that the fun of a high-powered game is less about the challenge and more about getting to do really cool stuff.  The story is just an excuse for the really cool stuff.  You don't have to entertain the players; you just have to create a situation in which the players can entertain themselves.

That's my theory, anyway.

[MasterMischief]

In theory.

Here is where I find Hero works better than M&M.  Hero has no absolutes.  You can't buy immunity (Not talking about Life Support here).  You have to buy your defenses up as high as you can and hope that is enough.  In M&M, you can buy immunity and as the PP increase, it becomes silly not to.  Not a criticism, just an observation.  I actually like high powered campaigns.

And I think you are on to something.  High powered campaigns are even more about wish fulfillment.  I have no problem with that as long as everyone is upfront about that from the beginning.

[yaracyrrah]

For what it's worth, that's a difference in philosophy, not a difference in success/failure.  In Hero game balance is enforced by the system.  In M&M game balance is (designed to be) enforced by the players.  I say the players and not the GM: good players will regulate themselves.  Of course it's not trivial to find good players, but I've had pretty good success at it in the past.

[MasterMischief]

I do not think it is quite that simple.  Different people play for different reasons.  Some enjoy building a character that can 'win'.  I am not convinced that makes them a 'bad' player even if we disagree on creative agendas.

[yaracyrrah]

I see your point, but I think it's answering a different question.  Good players, whatever their individual motivations, make sure that their own enjoyment doesn't hinder the enjoyment of others.

[Wintercat]

Power level isn't as important as the idea itself, I am interested whatever the power level is. I think most I've seen are PL 8 or PL 10, those seem the best choices in general. I have tried a PL 12 game with a friend but that went a bit weird rather quick, so I'd say those games with 'high power' ought to be limited to folks invited to them specifically, given they are hard enough to manage even without a powergamer player-killer (rare but still existing specimen of kill-joy clan).

That said, I personally tend to spend a handful of points getting the character a Headquarters if the DM is permissive of such, but of course when it doesn't really fit the setting, I go with something else. Just saying, that's one style to play, I imagine someone else would never want a HQ feeling it ties them down too much (or does not want to spend points on something that is no use when 'out in the field' later) or alternatively demands it is part of some huge vehicle (aka, space ship, personal air-craft carrier, andn those are just the start of what I have seen) allowing them to move around.

Anyway, glad to see M&M 2nd edition is getting more popular!

[Cold Heritage]

I think we can agree that a character with a No Save Teleport with the appropriate modifiers to selectively teleport all antagonists into the sun, backed up with a suite of Super-Senses, lavish investment in Improved Initiative, and a healthy purchase of Luck and Seize Initiative who can do it all from the comfort of his bathroom may not be fun for everyone else, and as a GM you should just say no.

[MasterMischief]

... and as a GM you should just say no.

I must confess that is one of my flaws, I abhor telling players 'no'.

[yaracyrrah]

I must confess that is one of my flaws, I abhor telling players 'no'.

For what it's worth, one of the best (for me) pieces of GMing advice I've ever read was to try as much as possible to replace "No" with "Yes, but...".  For example, "You can have that power, but only if you refrain from using it to...".

That said, the "No Save" extra was a really, colossally stupid idea.  I can't readily imagine a circumstance in which I'd allow it.  It no longer exists in 3E.

[Foxy DeVille]

I think atmosphere and plot have more to do with making a campaign feel cosmic than power level. If you look at the stats of supporting characters in M&M even a PL 6 "street level" character is much more capable than a SWAT team member. A PL 10 character is pretty godlike compared to normal folks. If the player characters are treated as something extraordinary and there aren't dozens of people just as powerful as they are running around then they'll feel pretty high-powered.

[Kolbrandr]

Some of it is a matter of power level all the same. I mean.. even in Annihilation. Firelord fights his way through an entire alien spacefleet on his last defiant strength, only dropping after he brings down their leader. The Kree turn their entire capital city into a weapon against the forces from the Negative Zone. The Silver Surfer in rage and sorrow tears open space to create a singularity to prevent the body of his friend from being defiled.

Or there's the JLA, with Superman grappling with the angels of God, the JLA forcing back the moon, the.. entire start to finish arc with Mageddon, the centuries spanning clashes and strategies of JLA one million in moves and countermoves of Galactic conquest across time and space.

Or Thor and Asgard in a futile glorious stand against the Celestials themselves that though completely and sort of obviously doomed from the very beginning is awesome to behold right down to Thor being the only one left, hurling his father's twenty foot tall, empowered by all the pantheons of man, sword through the body of a Celestial as he shouts one last curse.

Or.. I mean I thought the ending of War of Kings was rather lame, but until then it gave the feel of pan galactic war between massive empires and their superbeing champions.

It's the scale of mythmaking that underscores those sorts of stories, and to see a sort of dismissive "it's just masturbatory wish fulfillment" well.. eh. All rp is a measure of wish fulfillment, at that. I personally never fathom the attitude towards wanting to use a comic book supers rpg, to emulate particular comics though, being bad or wrong or "something everyone should admit what it is". Is not being able to game like unto the comics part of why a supers rpg would exist?

That all said, honestly, to the fellow that started the thread, if you don't really have an interest in running that sort of thing, there's really nothing wrong with that, it was just an answer to the question "what would you like to see/are interested in?" Running anything you don't have much regard or enthusiasm for would just end badly and be unfair to you.

As far as opposition though? I mean, just look to the comics themselves for examples. And builds, well, it is just a matter of saying no straight up to anything insane.

[MasterMischief]

I apologize if it sounded like I was saying someone's idea was 'bad'.  That was not my intention.

[Callie Del Noire]

One of my buddies used to do a contest of creating the most dangerous overpowered character there was. He once had fun.. the guys powers didn't work on .. fish. So theoretically if you wanted to survive his radiant blasts of irresistible death, all you needed a vest of kippers.

That being said I had few PL 12 characters I made up for my bud's campaign. One was Wayfare. She was the latest of the 'Space/time' manipulators that were part of the 'Seven Mysterious Strangers.

[Cold Heritage]

I think atmosphere and plot have more to do with making a campaign feel cosmic than power level. If you look at the stats of supporting characters in M&M even a PL 6 "street level" character is much more capable than a SWAT team member. A PL 10 character is pretty godlike compared to normal folks. If the player characters are treated as something extraordinary and there aren't dozens of people just as powerful as they are running around then they'll feel pretty high-powered.

I've never been in a game where my character treated as if they were all that big a deal, so I'd derive more a sense of being something extraordinary if my character could punch and do more damage than a rocket launcher, or if I had enough Super-Strength down on my sheet that my character could bench an aircraft carrier. Just my experience.

[meikle]

That's my theory, anyway.

Once you get high enough powered (say, Superman on Earth), where unless some specific screw-you situation comes up (kryptonite, you lose!) the character wins by default, the focus shifts from 'can i overcome this task?' to 'what are the consequences of the method i'm going to use to overcome this task?'

It's a different kind of story but it's not a bad kind.

(imho, anyway; I've never participated in a high-powered game that just focused on the 'i win again!' part)

[PhantomPistoleer]

I always want to play in a M&M2E campaign, but it's hard to get everyone on the same page with what numbers represent what in terms of skill/power benchmarks.  You end up getting normal hand-to-hand fighters that are doing +8L damage, which is equal to the damage done by a torpedo.

[MasterMischief]

I always want to play in a M&M2E campaign, but it's hard to get everyone on the same page with what numbers represent what in terms of skill/power benchmarks.  You end up getting normal hand-to-hand fighters that are doing +8L damage, which is equal to the damage done by a torpedo.

If you are looking for realism, it is not the system for you.  Of course if you are looking for realism in comic books, your judgment is probably skewed to begin with.  Superman vs. Batman...Batman go squish.

[Cold Heritage]

I think it is not so much a problem of realism, as a problem of consistency. After all, if a punch from the Batman does as much damage as military grade man-portable anti-tank ordnance (and much more than essentially all small arms), then things can be somewhat difficult to reconcile. M&M just simply does not care if you are a dude who did a lot of push-ups or a dude who was born on another planet with fantastic abilities; you both get to have the same PL appropriate damage output. There is nothing stopping a character whose background includes no sort of combat training having an Attack and Defense bonus equal to that of someone who was raised by Shaolin Monks to master the 38 Illuminated Forms of Divinity and succeeded in harmonizing body and mind to become the Holy Divine Fist of Justice.

[meikle]

It's easier to reconcile, I think, if you don't take the system's mechanics as representative of the in-character reality.  It's not a physics engine, it's a tool for telling stories / playing a game, and the game sucks for emulating the superhero genre if people who are playing Batman are told that to keep up with Superman they have to be willing to carry a rocket launcher around with them.

That'll be the last couple of pennies I drop in here though, since I'm not involved!

[PhantomPistoleer]

Detective Hero:  Legion PL10 (150pp)

Real Name:  Unknown   Identity:  Secret
Occupation:  Crime Fighter, Adventurer
Base of Operations:  Grimald 7

Attributes:
STR 16; DEX 18; CON 16; INT 16; WIS 16; CHA 16;

Skills:
Acrobatics 12 (+16); Climb 4 (+7); Computers 4 (+7); Craft (Mechanical) 8 (+11); Disable Device 8 (+12); Disguise 4 (+7); Drive 2 (+6); Escape Artist 8 (+12); Gather Information 8 (+11); Intimidate 4 (+7); Investigate 12 (+15); Knowledge (Behavioral Sciences) 4 (+7); Knowledge (Civics) 4 (+7); Knowledge (Current Events) 4 (+7); Knowledge (Streetwise) 8 (+11); Language (Mandarin Chinese, Italian, Russian, Spanish); Medicine 4 (+7); Notice 7 (+10); Pilot 11 (+15); Search 8 (+11); Sense Motive 8 (+11); Sleight of Hand 6 (+10); Stealth 12 (+16); Survival 2 (+5); Swim 4 (+7)

Feats:
Acrobatic Bluff; All-Out Attack; Attack Focus 2 (Melee); Attack Specialization 2 (Unarmed Combat); Blind-Fight; Defensive Attack; Dodge Focus 5; Elusive Target; Endurance; Evasion 2; Fearless; Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike); Improved Initiative; Interpose; Hide-In-Plain Sight; Set-Up; Skill Mastery (Acrobatics, Gather Investigation, Investigate, Pilot); Sneak Attack; Takedown Attack 2; Track; Uncanny Dodge; Well-Informed;

Combat:
BaB: +4 [Ranged]; +8; +10 [Melee]; +14 [Unarmed]
Grapple: +13
Damage: +5 [Unarmed]
BdB: 8 [+13 w/ Dodge Focus; +4 Flat-Footed]
Iniative: +8 [+4 Dex; +4 Feat]

Saves:
Toughness: +3 (+6 armor); Fortitude: +8 (+12 w/ Endurance); Reflex: +10; Willpower: +6

Equipment:   
Costume (13ep/3pp)
Armor Protection 3
Nomex Immunity 6 (Environmental Heal; Fire Damage) Limited (Half effect) [-1];
Tech  Commlink, Computer, Radio, Night Vision Goggles;
Gloves Strike 2 (Power Feat: Mighty)

Utility Belt 27ep/5pp
Tear Gas Dazzle/Nauseate Explosion 4 (40 ft; Ref/Fort DC 14); 18ep
AP: Sleep Gas Fatigue Explosion 6 (30 ft; Ref DC 16); 1ep
AP: Flash Bang Dazzle Burst 4 (20 ft; Ref 14); 1ep
AP: Stun Gun Stun 9; 1ep
AP: Grapple Launcher Snare 6 (Power Feat: Tether); Super-Movement 2 (Slow-Fall, Swinging; Extra: Carry Others); Fire Extinguisher; 1ep
Flashlight, Gas Mask, Multi-Tool, Parabolic Microphone, Rebreather

Drawbacks
Disability One-Eyed (Common, Moderate)
Weakness Opiate Addiction (Common, Moderate)

Devices (6pp; 10dp)
Concealment 4 [All Visual Senses; Flaw: Limited (Shadows)];
AP: Concealment 4 [All Visual Senses; Flaw: Limited to Machines]
AP: Displacement
Super Movement Trackless
Super Movement Wall-Crawling
Super Senses Direction Sense
Super Senses Distance Sense



Minion
E.V.A.
Attributes: STR 0; DEX 0; CON 0; INT 24; WIS 10; CHA 16
Skills: Computers 12 (+19); Gather Information 12 (+15); Knowledge (Earth Sciences) 8 (+15); Knowledge (History) 8 (+15); Knowledge (Life Sciences) 8 (+15); Knowledge (Physical Sciences) 8 (+15); Knowledge (Technology) 8 (+15);
Feats: Eidetic Memory;
Powers: Datalink 10 (Radio; Power Feat: Cyberspace); Comprehend 3 (Understands Languagues; Flaw: Action); Super Movement 1 (Dimension Movement; Dimensional Communication); Super-Sense 1 (Analytical Hearing); Super-Sense 1 (Radio); Incorporeal 3 (Flaw: Permanent);
Saves: TOU 0; FORT: IMMUNE; REF: 0; WILL: 0

Attributes 38 + Skills 40 + Feats 30 + Combat 16 + Saves 14 + Equipment 8 + Devices 6 + Minion 4 + Drawbacks -6

NOTES:  He's a little bit Miguel O'Hara, he's a little bit Batman. 

[Cold Heritage]

Oh wow, Evasion 2. Trollfacing area attacks since '05?

[Wintercat]

Thought you couldn't go over the border set by PL in attack or defence without a clear trade-off, marked up? Other than that, have to admit that's a nasty bit of damage-avoidance-expertise

[PhantomPistoleer]

Ah, I didn't mark it;  but the trade off is between ATK and DAM; and DEF and TOU.  Admittedly, I don't actually hit my caps in the trade-off, since I could have +14 ATK/+6DAM and +13DEF/+7TOU.  He looks mean, but he really can't take hits--and though he's versatile enough, he really can't do much damage.  He succeeds as a teammate, using redirect and set-up.

Edit:  I now hit my caps for ATK, since I had Elusive Target twice in my feats.  I went with Sneak Attack.