Germany - 1920's & 30's -- What would you have done ... ?

[NiceTexasGuy]

Yep, Nazis are evil, we got that part.  Civil rights repressed.  Millions suffered.  Millions murdered.  Wars started.  They were almost as bad as the commies.

But, if you've ever asked that all important question "how could the German people let it happen?" I have a question (two questions, actually) for you: 

If you were around back then, and in Germany, what would you have done, and at what point would you have done it?

Thank you in advance for your input.

[Neysha]

With foreknowledge of what was about to happen or are we kind of superimposing our personality/character to existing in that time hypothetically?

[NiceTexasGuy]

With foreknowledge of what was about to happen or are we kind of superimposing our personality/character to existing in that time hypothetically?

Uh, yeah, #2 I think.  No time machines and crystal balls ... just if you were a regular person back then, just like all the other German people who "let it happen." 

[Kythia]

http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm

[Beguile's Mistress]

Place yourself in the 1920-1930 era in Germany experiencing the politics and economy of the time as well as the results of WWI and the resulting treaties which left much of Germany in a financially depressed condition.

[NiceTexasGuy]

http://www.anesi.com/fscale.htm

Interesting.  Do they have one for Communists, too?

[Neysha]

I probably wouldn't of done anything. Probably a supporter of the DNVP... possibly the Social Democrats. They both are very antagonistic to those scary German communists which is a plus to my 1920's sensibilities. The Germans Peoples Party is probably the most palatable to me, but they seemed like an extremely small party later on. So unless I was fairly passionate about them, I'd probably vote for a party with greater political clout.

But then again with a multiparty parliamentary system, maybe I would stick with the German Peoples Party, help them not lose thirty seats or something in the 1932 election. :p

[Oniya]

Considering my current set of abilities (we'll ignore my ethnic background for the moment), I am personally humbled when I read/hear the stories of Germans who did take action during those years.  You hear about the people like von Stauffenberg, Schindler, and Gustav Schroeder.  Not many people have heard of Ilse Stanley, but she was a German Jew who personally helped over 400 people get out of concentration camps, or Otto Hahn, a chemistry professor who assisted Jewish scientists in avoiding deportation to the camps.  Some of these people didn't come to light until decades after the war - like Albert Battel, who prevented SS commandos from 'resettling' the inhabitants of Przemyśl in an extermination camp.

To assume that the German people 'let it happen' is indeed a disservice to these and many other individuals.

[Callie Del Noire]

Most likely I'd be like my friend's parents in Germany did.. support things till the Nazi's came along and slapped us in Penal units to do work because we were politically opposed to them and couldn't be allowed to simply leave. Both he and his father were engineers, so they got slapped into a work group and told to do what the Nazi's said or their families would be shot.

Considering my current set of abilities (we'll ignore my ethnic background for the moment), I am personally humbled when I read/hear the stories of Germans who did take action during those years.  You hear about the people like von Stauffenberg, Schindler, and Gustav Schroeder.  Not many people have heard of Ilse Stanley, but she was a German Jew who personally helped over 400 people get out of concentration camps, or Otto Hahn, a chemistry professor who assisted Jewish scientists in avoiding deportation to the camps.  Some of these people didn't come to light until decades after the war - like Albert Battel, who prevented SS commandos from 'resettling' the inhabitants of Przemyśl in an extermination camp.

To assume that the German people 'let it happen' is indeed a disservice to these and many other individuals.

There are a LOT of stories of folks that did the right thing that never came to light. Few of them stepped forward after (some couldn't.. because well. they were 'vanished' for resisting the Nazis.)

[Oniya]

There are a LOT of stories of folks that did the right thing that never came to light. Few of them stepped forward after (some couldn't.. because well. they were 'vanished' for resisting the Nazis.)

Precisely my point. ;)

Now, with a family background of about 5/8s Polish, and somewhere around a quarter Russian, and about as far from Aryan standard as you can get (not to mention female - since we're talking the 20s and 30s), I don't think they'd be inviting me to any engineering projects.

[Callie Del Noire]

Precisely my point. ;)

Now, with a family background of about 5/8s Polish, and somewhere around a quarter Russian, and about as far from Aryan standard as you can get (not to mention female - since we're talking the 20s and 30s), I don't think they'd be inviting me to any engineering projects.

The Nazis were very pragmatic Oniya.. if you had skills they needed, they were  perfectly willing to hold you and yours hostage till they didn't need you. Then it was off to the camps if you became irrelevant.

[Oniya]

Yeah, took that into account.  The best I would have been tapped for is sewing uniforms.

[Ephiral]

Probably been shipped off to a penal camp or otherwise disappeared because I couldn't keep my damn mouth shut and have extremely strong anti-authoritarian tendencies. (My F-scale score was 1.99..., and would have been lower if there weren't some mostly-innocuous or agreeable statements that took a sharp turn into left field with one specific clause.)

This is relevant and beautifully-written, and one of the major moral lessons I keep coming back to when it comes to making tough decisions.

EDIT:

The point of the original question is what would you have done, and at what point would you have done it?

In light of this, a more specific answer: Spoken out loudly and angrily, joining with whatever groups I could to make my voice heard, the moment I saw a serious and potentially-dangerous consolidation of power by the government. Much like I have done in the past, and continue to do in the face of the incredibly toxic "Harper Government". So yeah, been one of the first rounded up and executed, with unfortunately little effect on what happened.

I fully admit that the purges that happened probably would make me hesitate, and I honestly don't know if I'd have the courage of my convictions at that point - I doubt it, and that is disappointing - but I'd likely be speaking out before purges started, so that doesn't save me. Assuming I made it past the first round, I'd likely get caught trying to get the hell out, because at that point the writing is on the wall and more of the sort of rabble-rousing I tend toward can be done from outside the country and alive than inside and dead. This is, of course, assuming me - someone with the education level, cultural and historical background, and social mores that were common in 1920s-30s Germany would not be recognizably me.

[NiceTexasGuy]

Okay, I certainly don't mean to downplay the contributions and the bravery of people who took risks to oppose the government or at least try to mitigate the damage, but I would also point out that many of these people were a part of the "let it happen" population until they had a change of heart somewhere along the way. 

Schindler was part of the (sorry, I forget the name, the German espionage agency) and facilitated the German invasion of Czechslovakia, then used slave labor to work in his factory.  So, for a number of years, he not only let it happen, he helped make it happen. 

Von Stauffenberg invaded Poland and France.  He, too, helped make it happen.

The point of the original question is what would you have done, and at what point would you have done it?

To be honest, I would have to answer the question with "I don't know".  I like to think I would have been one of those heroic types who knew all along what was happening and would have fought to stop it.  However, I'm a little familiar with the deplorable conditions in Germany following the First World War.  I might not have been so far-sighted and heroic after all.  Might I have been one of the first to shout Hallelujah when Hitler came to power?  I just keep hearing people ask -- how did they let it happen?  And I wonder about the people asking the question -- what would you have done differently?  And what might they - or we - be "allowing to happen" today that will confound future historians and history buffs and ordinary clueless people alike and make them ask the same question.

[Beorning]

Von Stauffenberg invaded Poland and France.  He, too, helped make it happen.

Yup. I may be mistaken, but - from what I've read - von Stauffenberg wasn't *morally* against Nazism. He was a nationalist and he willingly supported Hitler... until Germany started losing the war. It was then that von Stauffenberg decided that it'd be best to remove Hitler from power and ask the Allies for peace.

I'm not saying that what the man did wasn't brave or heroic, but - from what I've read - he just doesn't strike me as a man who looked at Nazism and said: "This is evil, I will oppose it". He was more like "This war is turning out pointless, let's change the government and sue for peace"

[gaggedLouise]

It depends a lot on one's age at the time (in 1933) and what kind of options you had of emigrating, cutting your roots within Germany and rebuilding a home in exile. I think it was obvious to very many people at the time, even in '32, that German society, economy and politics were in a tailspin, and many people would have sensed that the disaster had some roots in the twenties, long before the economy bombed. But who or what they were blaming would have differed a lot as well. The Nazis blamed the Jews and Communists, and the treaty of Versailles, some blamed "modern decadence and laziness", most of us take a different approach...I reckon one's age would have been important to how easy you would have found it to see and act on what was happening. Supposing I'd been born in 1900 or shortly after, and had been roughly like the "me" I am for now, I believe I would have realized fairly early that the Nazis were a rotten bunch and could not be trusted. But would that have translated into openly defying them, and perhaps getting caught, beaten up and hanged, or going into exile? I really don't know, that's much less certain.

Many people simply didn't have the option of emigrating, it wasn't an easy decision in a world where joblessness and poverty were rampant, where their kids might not be able to get educated in their native language, where you'd likely have to sell your furniture, books and much of your clothes for subpar prices prior to moving out, or even destroy some of your books because they were verboten or suspect - and where one's school diplomas might turn out relatively worthless in a new country. Not to mention that you might lose touch with most of your extended family, even your parents. Letter traffic back and forth to the Reich was not left uncensored of course, and some of them might turn against you on their own accord.

I think people like Sophie and Hans Scholl or the Stauffenberg group deserve great respect, even if they had been affiliated with the Nazi party at some point earlier on. Joining the party was as unavoidable, to many people, as paying your student fees or joining the student union if you attend a university today, in many cases it was only marginally an ideological choice and it could be coerced quite a bit.

[The Dark Raven]

Okay, I certainly don't mean to downplay the contributions and the bravery of people who took risks to oppose the government or at least try to mitigate the damage, but I would also point out that many of these people were a part of the "let it happen" population until they had a change of heart somewhere along the way. 

Schindler was part of the (sorry, I forget the name, the German espionage agency) and facilitated the German invasion of Czechslovakia, then used slave labor to work in his factory.  So, for a number of years, he not only let it happen, he helped make it happen. 

Von Stauffenberg invaded Poland and France.  He, too, helped make it happen.

The point of the original question is what would you have done, and at what point would you have done it?

To be honest, I would have to answer the question with "I don't know".  I like to think I would have been one of those heroic types who knew all along what was happening and would have fought to stop it.  However, I'm a little familiar with the deplorable conditions in Germany following the First World War.  I might not have been so far-sighted and heroic after all.  Might I have been one of the first to shout Hallelujah when Hitler came to power?  I just keep hearing people ask -- how did they let it happen?  And I wonder about the people asking the question -- what would you have done differently?  And what might they - or we - be "allowing to happen" today that will confound future historians and history buffs and ordinary clueless people alike and make them ask the same question.

How did they let it happen?

Well, for starters they let it happen because the rest of the world crapped on them during and after WWI.  Their country was a shambles physically, mentally and economically.  They had nothing left.  They were starving.  The Great Depression (as we know it in the US) hit them first in the world or nearly because they were already rock bottom.  They had no hope of ever being anything that they had enjoyed before the Great War.  It was over for Germany.

Then this little man from nowhere came into the picture and literally promised them the world, singing the praises of the idealized German culture and the great old Saxon and Germanic roots that they heard of in stories as a kid.  A Golden Age.  He said he'd make that happen, if they only made him Chancellor.  He didn't say how, just to vote for him, because he would save them.  So they did.  Hitler was the Golden Boy who surrounded himself with like minded men who would help him restore Germany to glory.

The Final Solution wasn't thought of til later. 

The people didn't know he was just a hair insane.

He was going to save them and bring Germany back to a power to be reckoned with, and he had a shit list waiting to prove all those Allied countries wrong about WWI.  He was a Nationalist in the purest sense of the word and an imperialist.

People now, with all the hindsight we have, forget he did start with good intentions, however twisted his methods were.  Even now it is illegal for the German people to listen to Hitler's speeches because he was so charismatic he drew everyone in.

With that said, if I were in their place, I probably would have been sucked in too.  From what I've heard from German exchange students that come here and get to listen to those speeches for the first time, even knowing what he did, they have to tear themselves away from his promises.  And that is the scariest thing of all to me.  The man still holds power today, even though he has been dead since 1945.

[Oniya]

I notice that you took two of the most famous examples from my post, and glossed over the others (Gustav Schroeder, by the way, was the captain of a refugee ship that did everything in his power to try to get some country to accept the mostly-Jewish passengers emigrating from Germany.)

My point is that history doesn't give a damn about der Man in der Strasse, l'homme d'avenue, or the man in the street.  History cares about the big picture.  In 60 years, when people are looking back on today at the same distance that we are from Nazi Germany, most of us reading here will be happy little lumps of clay, gone on to whatever you believe happens to lumps of clay.  Some of the youngest members of the forum might still be around, but that's about it.  History will probably remember folks on the level of the Koch Brothers.  History might remember people on the order of Craig Jelinek (CEO of Costco - actually pays his workers a living wage, with benefits, and doesn't hoard all the profits to himself.)  History will gloss over the rest of us, the way that it has Ilse Stanley and Otto Hahn.

Does that mean that we shouldn't do anything?  No.  There's a story I read once - this particular version is attributed to the Starfish Charity:

An old man had a habit of early morning walks on the beach. One day, after a storm, he saw a human figure in the distance moving like a dancer. As he came closer he saw that it was a young woman and she was not dancing but was reaching down to the sand, picking up a starfish and very gently throwing them into the ocean.
"Young lady," he asked, "Why are you throwing starfish into the ocean?"
"The sun is up, and the tide is going out, and if I do not throw them in they will die."
"But young lady, do you not realize that there are miles and miles of beach and starfish all along it? You cannot possibly make a difference."
The young woman listened politely, paused and then bent down, picked up another starfish and threw it into the sea, past the breaking waves,
saying, "It made a difference for that one."
The old man looked at the young woman inquisitively and thought about what she had done. Inspired, he joined her in throwing starfish back into the sea. Soon others joined, and all the starfish were saved.

[RubySlippers]

I hate to point out if it wasn't for Hitler and the Nazi Regime we would not be a major power now and have left the war the most powerful industrial nation on Earth, Japan would have taken Asia (without allies they would never have risked war with the USA it would be a one front war) and Germany would not be the economic power it is now.

As to the question I would comply and not cause issues and try to move to a rural area to avoid bombing and the like I'm no heroine, why make waves?

[Galanthor]

I only briefly looked over that, but as a German i must say that i am really surprised how much empathy and understanding for the situation i saw here...

thank you guys, that kind of cracked me up.

Also Ruby is only partially right in that Hitler did help german economy, especially since the war ended in germany loosing a lot of working machinary (which led to modernisation later on) and general economic power (I even know a rather big city near me that was bombed to the ground) especially in the place that'd become the ddr (that half of germany still hasn't fully recovered). Also lots of german companys disappeared thanks to their cooperation with Hitler. That said during Hitler's reign the economy did boom, but that was more because the allied chose to go a little softer on germany (especially considering reparations).

[NiceTexasGuy]

I notice that you took two of the most famous examples from my post, and glossed over the others

You make it sound like I'm being accused of some wrongdoing.  My intent was not to gloss over anyone or anything, but to point out that an entire nation is accused by history as being complacent regarding all this evil wrongdoing, and even those being held up as heroes were as much a part of the problem as anyone, if not more so. 

I'll confess I didn't know the name Gustav Schroeder off the top of my head (though I was already familiar with the ship of the damned, just didn't remember the captain's name) ... maybe I'd have probably recognized it if Spielberg made a movie about it.

I think my point in asking the question was to think about at what point are people supposed to actually stand up and do something.  I am really really really hesitant to use present day examples because I know the kind of absurd rhetoric that will lead to - but let's say some unnamed president of the USA is subverting the Constitution, destroying the environment, destroying the economy, destroying the country, etc .. (for some it could be Bush, for others it could be Obama - let's just call him John Doe) so there's all this talk ... people are really really upset, but so far that's what it is, talk.  Celebrities threaten to leave the country if thus-and-such happens, but when it happens, none of them do.  States threaten to secede, but none of them did. 

I was just wondering at what point does something get bad enough for someone to do something other than talk.  AND I'M NOT TRYING TO START A REPUBLICAN VS. DEMOCRAT DEBATE HERE.  I was just thinking about Nazi Germany and AT WHAT POINT do we think people should have done something other than sit there and be compliant.

Thus far it looks like we have a couple of people who might have ended up in concentration camps (or simply disappeared in the night) while a few others (maybe me among them) would try to keep their mouths shut and not draw attention to themselves.  I'm wondering if anyone will say "on this date, at this time, because of this incident, I would have grabbed a pitchfork and marched on Berlin, whether anyone came with me or not."

[Cyrano Johnson]

If I were a 1920's & 30's German version of myself, that is, a fairly nonviolent person of intellectual and artistic bent with leftist views coming from a middle class family and belonging to an immigrant ethnic group, my most probable counterpart in that time is a Roma artist and musician. The prognosis for such an individual in that age of rising authoritarianism and nationalism isn't super-awesome. The chances are good that I flirt with membership in a communist group early on, but as things progress and I find myself unsuited to street violence and suspicious of left radicalism as I am of its rightist counterpart, I probably try to just bury myself in my work and my art. Maybe, as the Third Reich actually begins to rise, I try to get out of Germany and even out of Europe, in which case I probably wind up in North America somewhere. If I fail to get out I probably wind up in a concentration camp, and either survive or die as luck would have it.

[NiceTexasGuy]

Maybe, as the Third Reich actually begins to rise, I try to get out of Germany and even out of Europe, in which case I probably wind up in North America somewhere.

Just don't wait too long ... otherwise you might end up stuck in Casablanca unable to obtain an exit visa.  8-)

[Beorning]

You make it sound like I'm being accused of some wrongdoing.  My intent was not to gloss over anyone or anything, but to point out that an entire nation is accused by history as being complacent regarding all this evil wrongdoing, and even those being held up as heroes were as much a part of the problem as anyone, if not more so. 

Well, let's not make sweeping generalizations here. The Scholls weren't "as much part of the problem as anyone, if not more so".

I was just thinking about Nazi Germany and AT WHAT POINT do we think people should have done something other than sit there and be compliant.

Thus far it looks like we have a couple of people who might have ended up in concentration camps (or simply disappeared in the night) while a few others (maybe me among them) would try to keep their mouths shut and not draw attention to themselves.  I'm wondering if anyone will say "on this date, at this time, because of this incident, I would have grabbed a pitchfork and marched on Berlin, whether anyone came with me or not."

I'm not sure if grabbing a pitchfork literally would be the best idea...

The question: what would you want German people to do in this situation? What specifically do you believe they could've done?

[NiceTexasGuy]

Well, let's not make sweeping generalizations here. The Scholls weren't "as much part of the problem as anyone, if not more so".

The question: what would you want German people to do in this situation? What specifically do you believe they could've done?

Okay, even some of those being held up as heroes ... my bad.

I would point out, though, that a more sweeping generalization is being made by the ones asking "how could the German people let this happen?" -- It's a question I've heard a lot of people ask, and that's the point of this thread. 

What would I want the German people to do, and what do I believe they could've done?  I don't know.  In case I wasn't clear, I'm not the one accusing them of anything.  Instead, I'm trying to understand exactly what you asked - what should they have done (and when), and what could they have accomplished by doing it?

[Beguile's Mistress]

At the end of the First World War, following the Treat of Versailles and in the shadow of the Russian Revolution, Germany was in bad shape.  Heavy sanctions against them for war reparations prevented them from rebuilding economically and unemployment was very high.  The National Socialist German Workers Party gained popularity because it proposed to fight Communism, regain Germany's place in world politics and get the country out from under the oppressive restrictions imposed on them at the end of the war.  Long-standing prejudices such as the belief that the Jews were the root cause of many of their problems were used to work up the populace to gain support.  Patriotism was the siren call and Liebenraum, "room for life," was the excuse the Nazis used for the expansionist policies. 

Not every policy of the new government once the Workers Party came into power was publicized, such as the genocide of various groups of people and nationalities to provide room for the elite Aryan peoples the Germans were supposed to be.  By the time the German citizenry realized what was happening and began to listen to the dissidents events had moved far beyond an easy fix.

I'd like to think that at the point where I realized the true nature of the Nazis and the evil they were doing I would have joined one of those groups who were doing all they could to undermine the Nazis at home so the rest of the world could take them down more easily.  It's hard to tell though when you and your family are hungry and cold and sick.

[gaggedLouise]

I think my point in asking the question was to think about at what point are people supposed to actually stand up and do something.  I am really really really hesitant to use present day examples because I know the kind of absurd rhetoric that will lead to - but let's say some unnamed president of the USA is subverting the Constitution, destroying the environment, destroying the economy, destroying the country, etc .. (for some it could be Bush, for others it could be Obama - let's just call him John Doe) so there's all this talk ... people are really really upset, but so far that's what it is, talk.  Celebrities threaten to leave the country if thus-and-such happens, but when it happens, none of them do.  States threaten to secede, but none of them did. 
(---)

Thus far it looks like we have a couple of people who might have ended up in concentration camps (or simply disappeared in the night) while a few others (maybe me among them) would try to keep their mouths shut and not draw attention to themselves.  I'm wondering if anyone will say "on this date, at this time, because of this incident, I would have grabbed a pitchfork and marched on Berlin, whether anyone came with me or not."

Yup, it's an argument that sounds much stronger than it actually is. I recall one or two with the title of journalist writing opinion pieces in 2003 - here in Sweden, which was never part of the military coalition against Saddam Hussein - erupting "You're saying the free world shouldn't have marched on Saddam, even though you are 'against Saddam' as a political figure? Look here, when did you begin to be against him? I've been against Saddam since the mid-1980s, consistently, so if you're claiming we're not right in wanting to take him out and you are implying some of us actually helped arm him at one point, then you're just talking pay dirt. We've waited long enough!"

The upshot of that one is
a)No one who hasn't been against dictator X since very early on has a right to their own opinion about him, or how we should handle him.
b)Saddam was fully like Hitler and (in 2002/3) the same kind of threat to world peace, to everybody's safety and especially to the safety of Jews as the Nazis had been.

I contested both of those at the time and still do, even though the guy was a dirty and violent dictator. Not going to discuss Saddam specifically in any way here though.

[NiceTexasGuy]

Not going to discuss Saddam specifically in any way here though.

Thanks .. because I suspect that at least a couple of people here have opinions they'd be willing to share if we opened that can of worms.   8-)

[Beguile's Mistress]

Thanks .. because I suspect that at least a couple of people here have opinions they'd be willing to share if we opened that can of worms.   8-)

*pours cement over it and sets a big heavy rock on top*

[NiceTexasGuy]

I'd like to think that at the point where I realized the true nature of the Nazis and the evil they were doing I would have joined one of those groups who were doing all they could to undermine the Nazis at home so the rest of the world could take them down more easily.  It's hard to tell though when you and your family are hungry and cold and sick.

Thank you for that.  I suspect most people who opposed Hitler and the Nazis came to realize how evil they were later rather than earlier for a couple of reasons.   First, their agenda was probably not that well known until later -- and second, because it's easier to ignore someone doing something wrong if they're also enabling you to feed your kids.  That isn't an indictment of the people ... on the contrary, it's totally understandable.

It's easy to read history and say "I would have stood with Travis at the Alamo, I would have stood with Leonidas at the bridge, I would have stood with Gerard Butler at Thermopylae" ... it's a little easier to say those things when you're not especially hot or cold or hungry or thirsty and nobody's actually trying to poke you with sharp pointy things.

[gaggedLouise]

*pours cement over it and sets a big heavy rock on top*

*breaks a sabre in two on the top side of the rock*

[Kythia]

Always kinda suspected I'd've goosestepped and Heil-ed me some Hitlers.  I'm one of nature's joiners.  Don't like it much but what can you do. 

[NiceTexasGuy]

Always kinda suspected I'd've goosestepped and Heil-ed me some Hitlers.  I'm one of nature's joiners.  Don't like it much but what can you do.

Since you asked, and only because you asked ....


... you might consider channeling some of that energy into roleplay.  I have a few ideas if you're interested.   ;)

[gaggedLouise]

Always kinda suspected I'd've goosestepped and Heil-ed me some Hitlers.  I'm one of nature's joiners.  Don't like it much but what can you do.

Join the boys instead!

Maybe you can hire Dad's A-Team

and the original:

Dad's Army - Opening Titles

-couldn't resist, the first clip especially is amazing - but also makes me want to rewatch some Dad's Army.  :D

[Kythia]

Since you asked, and only because you asked ....


... you might consider channeling some of that energy into roleplay.  I have a few ideas if you're interested.   ;)

:P

Back home tomorrow.  Will be replying then.  Been working on how to organise my RP load today, actually. 

I mean, errrr, Halt die Schnauze, Americaner Schwein.

[Oniya]

Actually, my point was that sixty years after the fact, the natural tendency is to overlook the smaller people and generalize the actions of the 'big people' to the whole.

I was just wondering at what point does something get bad enough for someone to do something other than talk.  AND I'M NOT TRYING TO START A REPUBLICAN VS. DEMOCRAT DEBATE HERE.  I was just thinking about Nazi Germany and AT WHAT POINT do we think people should have done something other than sit there and be compliant.

If you drop a live frog into boiling water, it will jump out.  If you drop it in cool water and slowly heat it, it will sit there and get cooked to death.  Historically, most situations where the populace is accused of being compliant, there are one or both of the following conditions involved:  Great immediate benefit, and a slow increase of bad things happening (usually to people that 'aren't us').

[NiceTexasGuy]

:P

I mean, errrr, Halt die Schnauze, Americaner Schwein.

I love it when you talk dirty to me.    ;D

[Beguile's Mistress]

Information and what is given out and how it is spread is the biggest weapon both sides have in any conflict.  If you can get more people to believe in you than the other side you can start winning.  It's how the Nazi party was elected into power.  It is also how the word was spread once the atrocities of the Nazi party stated coming to light.  In cellars and sub-basements, garrets and posh apartments anti-Nazi pamphlets were written and printed.  Copies were distributed to everyone known to be a friend and pasted up all over town for the general citizen to read.  The army or police pulled them down and they were replaced almost immediately.  The pamphleteers were captured and tortured for information and killed but others took their place.  When the Allies marched into Berlin on one side and the Russians on the other many of the citizens were ready and waiting to welcome them.  That may have been the first chance any of them had to move against the Nazis but because they did the occupation worked.  It's never too late to take up arms against the enemy as long as you have breath left in your body.

[Ephiral]

Thank you for that.  I suspect most people who opposed Hitler and the Nazis came to realize how evil they were later rather than earlier for a couple of reasons.   First, their agenda was probably not that well known until later -- and second, because it's easier to ignore someone doing something wrong if they're also enabling you to feed your kids.  That isn't an indictment of the people ... on the contrary, it's totally understandable.

It's possible to not understand the extent of their evil until later, though, and still oppose early on. The reason I said I'd be an early opponent, for example, had nothing to do with it being the easy or right choice - I'd likely die ineffectively and forgotten, a pretty poor outcome if you're actually trying to stop evil - and more to do with the fact that  I see huge consolidation of power as an enabler of great evils, regardless of how well-meaning the regime that does it may be.

It's easy to read history and say "I would have stood with Travis at the Alamo, I would have stood with Leonidas at the bridge, I would have stood with Gerard Butler at Thermopylae" ... it's a little easier to say those things when you're not especially hot or cold or hungry or thirsty and nobody's actually trying to poke you with sharp pointy things.

For what it's worth, I can't see myself in either of those situations at all. Partly because of my perception of both of those cases, which I don't want to get into, and partly because, while weapons have been used to enable good in the past, they're a dangerous ground I don't care to tread. I fight with words and tools.

[Neysha]

The last time Germans had a real chance of standing up was the 1932 elections when the Nazis were swept into power. Weimar Germany was suffering but by the time of 1932 things were actually improving bith in the realm of the economy and in foreign affairs like in regards to Versailles. If Hitler hadnt been swept into power in 1932 it mightve been the last chance for the existence of a Nazi Germany as opposed to a Nazi Party which couldve meandered along and die a slow death as Germany reverses its tailspin.

But theres an old adage where its theorized that revolts and revolution don't occur when your hitting the bottom, but when things start to improve. Maybe 1932 Germany was an example of it.

Its also a bit misleading to think Nazis were swept into power even significantly due to Aniti Semitism or Communism. The Nazi Party was an ideologically vibrant party that didnt take their voting blocs for granted. They didnt speak to a single demograohic, they spoke to the German people at large and denounced not just Jews and Communists and foreigners who forced Versailles on them. They were critical of the supposed failure of democracy and republicanism since 1918, and of conservatives looking to the past, and of political parties that catered to just farmers or just Catholics or just Trade Unions. And they provided a vision of a strong united Germany. One that wouldnt refound the old German Empire but be a united, technologically advanced, independent and due to their intended economic and military power, would be respected.

They won bevause they attracted socialists, conservatives, farmers, centrists, and so forth. There was even a term for some new voters, saying they were brown on the outside and red on the inside.

[Beguile's Mistress]

The Nazis were good at talking to everyone who would listen.  The knew how to appeal to what was most important to the people: their wallet, their stomachs and their patriotism.  The were even better at keeping their more base agendas hidden from the people until they got what they wanted and should anyone suspect or speak out about their ethnic cleansing or other programs those people were silenced quickly and in ways that intimidated others.

Today's politicians use the character bashing technique in much the same way.  If you oppose them they are perfectly capable of spreading rumor and innuendo when actual facts don't exist to destroy you.

[Neysha]

In a lot of cases they didn't need to supply much innuendo or rumor. Political smear campaigns and fearmongering and making promises isn't just something that automatically wins votes as you well know. They weren't elected just on 'appeal.' That would be minimizing what a threat they were politically. Underestimating them.

After all, they weren't the first political party in Germany at that time to engage in appealing to the masses.

The Nazis took advantage of the fact that there were too many parties that over the past fifteen years had been engaging in extensive politicking, coalition building, horse trading and other dealings. Between 1923-29 the German people, quite rightly, took heart in that they had overcome Versailles largely and what they felt was a War they had never actually lost and that the economy was recovering. Life was good. And yes, when the Great Depression hit and put everything into a tailspin, it was hard. But that alone, or even with the explanation of Versailles and anti-semitism isn't enough to state why the Nazi's earned such a massive amount of the votes in June of 1932. Why them and not the Communists or some other party, right wing or otherwise? Germans weren't exceptionally anti-Jewish... even the more liberal French were by and large more anti-semitic then the Germans through the twenties and early thirties.

The Nazis, using a network of workers, veterans groups, womens associations, and various other grassroots organizations, was able to respond on the street to the Great Depression. Nazi Party members rarely held conferences in the best hotels like other political parties. They were the ones feeding workers and veterans, they were the ones who supported strikers with food and groceries from Nazi owned restaurants and pubs and grocers. They never spoke of 'class struggles' like the Communists and Social Democrats and pointed out how the liberal Weimar Republic was rolling back social welfare programs while they were pushing forward with their own private charity. Meanwhile their radical rebelliousness alienated the conservatives, and other right wing parties, and all of the smaller parties who were dedicated to certain narrow issues were obviously overwhelmed by the party that was going to put an end to political horse trading and the anarchy that was the current government. Combined with their own message of law and order, of national respect, of increasing economic productivity, saving the welfare state through social reform, of taking advantage of German ingenuity and industry with advances in science and technology, and yes, a little Versailles vengeance in erasing the national shame they felt in November of 1918.

The Nazi Party was fueled by the vibrant political situation in the Weimar Republic. When over a third of Germans voted for the Nazis in June of 1932, they did so because the Nazis were able to harness all of that energy that a free democracy had managed to establish. They were innovative enough to attract right and left wing voters with their message. You can't just do that by blaming the economy or blaming the Jews or blaming Versailles. The Nazi Party was the only party that really managed to capture the German desire to see a party that would unify the German people, not divide them like the numerous parties did before whether through ethnic groups, or religious groups, or by catering to particular German states (Bavaria, Prussia etc) or by classes. (like the three rural parties or the Communists and Social Democrats or the German Party for the Middle Class) If the Nazis focused solely on the Social Democrats or Marxists or Jews or Conservatives, they would've stalled like everyone else, but they didn't because there was plenty of blame to go around. Keep in mind Germany was only made a country only sixty years earlier. The differences between a Saxon and a Bavarian and a Prussian could almost be as vast as the difference between the Irish and English or a Ukrainian and a Finn. The Nazi Party message overcame that and wasn't just the Nazi Party. It was the German Party. For many Germans, voting Nazi seemed like the most democratic vote they ever had.

When you look at the election results, they took votes from the socialists, the liberals, the conservatives, the middle class parties, the protestant parties, and even the rural/farmers parties. You can't win such broad appeal just by rumor and fear mongering. You need a positive platform of your own that is way better then everyone elses without sounding like the second coming of Jesus, because then it'd be fake.

It's telling that the only other party that had any success (and this was due to blaming the Great Depression and the West for Versailles) was the Communist Party in the July 1932 elections. But the Communists (peacefully anyways) would've likely never been able to seize power in Germany. They were crushed in the Spartacist rebellion and even the Socialists saw them as bitter rivals. Plus unlike almost every other party, they would've never earned the support of German businesses and liberals in the government. Added onto that how the class struggle literally alienates significant swaths of the population, they would perpetually face an uphill battle to ever being as popular as the Nazi Party.

[Vekseid]

Since my ethnic heritage puts me on the shortlist for the concentration camps not far behind the Jews, I'd go have a conversation with Einstein and then get the hell out of there. Probably offer my services to the FDR administration when it pops up.

[Skynet]

Well, I have prominent Jewish ancestry on my mother's side, so it's probable that my 1920s/30s self would be more "visibly Jewish."

In Germany my family would be very aware of anti-Semitism, even before Hitler's rise to power.  Jews were treated as a world apart in Europe for the longest time, so the things in propaganda gentile Germans would pass over, my family would pick up.  I'd definitely be interested in politics, as it plays a huge role in shaping our society.  Even though the Nazis touched a lot upon directing hatred at other nations and invoking the national spirit, I would've been turned off by the Reich's values early on.  I'm rather anti-authoritarian and turned on to various left-wing politics, so it's possible I'd have been targeted as a dissident even before Kristallnacht.

I don't know how soon I'd leave.  Definitely after Kristallnacht if I and my family escaped getting targeted for camps, but that would be hard to do for a despised minority in a police state.  If I got outside of German borders, I might have headed out to Britain along with the many other Jewish refugees in the late 30s.

In all likelihood I'd probably end up in a concentration camp.

[Beguile's Mistress]

My German great-grandparents were emigrants to the US.  They had no hopes and no future in their homeland and were frightened of the way things were going in their country.  I heard stories about their lives and read their journals when I was in high school.  I know that a lot of people only repeat what they've learned from history books or online sources, some of which offer spurious content and I wish my mother hadn't disappeared the journals after her parents died.  Their writing and the letters they received from friends and family back home show daily life as it existed.  Real history recorded by people who lived it is very different from what you read in books.

In a lot of cases they didn't need to supply much innuendo or rumor. Political smear campaigns and fearmongering and making promises isn't just something that automatically wins votes as you well know. They weren't elected just on 'appeal.' That would be minimizing what a threat they were politically. Underestimating them.

After all, they weren't the first political party in Germany at that time to engage in appealing to the masses.

I'm not sure if this really adding to what I said or trying to debunk it or even how my remarks about current methods in our country can be construed to be comments about the Nazis.  However, I'll let it pass lest what has happened in other threads happens here. 

[Neysha]

I'm not sure if this really adding to what I said or trying to debunk it or even how my remarks about current methods in our country can be construed to be comments about the Nazis.  However, I'll let it pass lest what has happened in other threads happens here.

??? ??? ???

So.... did you want me to reply or did you just post this because...?

[Cyrano Johnson]

Re: "the Germans let it happen," BTW: once the Nazis successfully exploited the inter-war chaos, it was difficult for any kind of mass opposition to coalesce to stop them. The "Germans let it happen" meme is probably the founding instance of what would later become a common meme in the kind of strategic bombing which (ironically) the Nazis helped to pioneer: that if you bombed an enemy population enough, it was supposed to "rise up" and throw off its shackles and remove the enemy leadership for you, otherwise it deserved everything it got. (This meme is still in use, despite -- like pretty much any plan which has "and then the people rise up and join us" as the key step -- having worked approximately zero times ever, anywhere.)

It is likely that once Hitler was truly ensconced in power, the only way he could be removed was if one of his own people killed him, which was tried many times:



... but never seemed to quite work, or if he picked a fight with precisely the wrong person*, the latter of which of course eventually happened.

*CONTENT WARNING & DISCLAIMER: The Hitler vs. Stalin comic this links to is a rather tasteless piece of Russian propaganda depicting Stalin laying a Dr. Strange-style supernatural beatdown on his enemy. It is included as an interesting piece of cultural arcana and for its connection to the "punching Hitler" theme of this post. We do not otherwise endorse the author's views of Stalin, Hitler, German commandos or the laws of physics. Thank you.

I would really love my answer to have been: "Dude, when they tried that Reichstag Fire false-flag scheisse I would be all like, 'No way, Fritz!' And then I'd totally lay the smack down on some German dudes and then sock Hitler in the jaw and then I'd be all dancing and laughing like: 'Hah! How you like me now, Der Fuehrer?!'" But according to the historical record, that method also had been tried, many times:



And he must have had an abnormally tough jaw, because it never seemed to settle anything:







Not even when the Wandering Jew got in on the act and took matters into his own hands:

"You may want to view this some time after you've eaten. WELL after."

However, having said all that -- and used this thread as a blatant excuse to post a bunch of Hitler-getting-punched pictures, because I love those -- it is also true that many people saw the ugliness and madness underlying Hitler's vision a long time before the war. There just wasn't enough of a critical mass of them to be able to counter the German hunger for a figure with Hitler's other apparent qualities.

[Beguile's Mistress]

Because this is a subject that many of us take seriously I went and looked for the following.  I'm quoting it in reference to the OP's question and not to be a source of debate about anything.

Martin Niemöller (1892-1984) was a prominent Protestant pastor who emerged as an outspoken public foe of Adolf Hitler and spent the last seven years of Nazi rule in concentration camps.

Niemöller is perhaps best remembered for the quotation:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--
Because I was not a Jew."

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.

The quotation stems from Niemöller's lectures during the early postwar period. Different versions of the quotation exist. These can be attributed to the fact that Niemöller spoke extemporaneously and in a number of settings. Much controversy surrounds the content of the poem as it has been printed in varying forms, referring to diverse groups such as Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, Trade Unionists, or Communists depending upon the version. Nonetheless his point was that Germans--in particular, he believed, the leaders of the Protestant churches--had been complicit through their silence in the Nazi imprisonment, persecution, and murder of millions of people.

Only in 1963, in a West German television interview, did Niemöller acknowledge and make a statement of regret about his own antisemitism (see Gerlach, 2000, p. 47). Nonetheless, Martin Niemöller was one of the earliest Germans to talk publicly about broader complicity in the Holocaust and guilt for what had happened to the Jews. In his book Über die deutsche Schuld, Not und Hoffnung (published in English as Of Guilt and Hope)--which appeared in January 1946--Niemöller wrote: "Thus, whenever I chance to meet a Jew known to me before, then, as a Christian, I cannot but tell him: 'Dear Friend, I stand in front of you, but we can not get together, for there is guilt between us. I have sinned and my people has sinned against thy people and against thyself.'"

Source

[Neysha]

The best part about the quote is how its chronologically correct, as following Hitler's Chancellorship in January of 1933 to the March 1933 elections and onward the Nazis and their support base did basically target the Communists and Social Democrats and Trade Unionists first. The Jews actually came in fourth, aft, to speak in extremely broad terms.

The KPD was organized and have a few hundred thousand active members, including a militant paramilitary wing (the RFB or Red Front Fighters) that was larger then the Versailles limited German Army. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), the RFB were banned in 1930 and so when Hitler gained the Chancellorship, he had the formidable power of the State (army and police) as well as almost a half million strong paramilitary army in the form of the SA backing his efforts. Needless to say, none of the other factions could match that kind of force or power. But it certainly wasn't for a lack of trying on the part of the KPD. They essentially declared war on the Nazis years before anyone else did and tens of thousands of them were in resistance organizations long before any German troops entered the Rhineland or invaded Poland.

By then said Communist resistance had been crushed and dismantled by the formidable growing power of Nazi Germany backed by the state (thanks to Goering becoming the Interior Minister at the time), the SA and SS, and their newly formed Gestapo organization.

So maybe some of you braver types didn't just end up in Concentration Camps. Maybe you were beaten to death in some working class district outside of a Nazi-owned pub!

Or shot dead during a street battle!

Or maybe executed by the police after being arrested/captured as opposed to whisked off to the camps!

[The Dark Raven]

Just for some levity...

[Rogue]

The best part about the quote is how its chronologically correct, as following Hitler's Chancellorship in January of 1933 to the March 1933 elections and onward the Nazis and their support base did basically target the Communists and Social Democrats and Trade Unionists first. The Jews actually came in fourth, aft, to speak in extremely broad terms.

The KPD was organized and have a few hundred thousand active members, including a militant paramilitary wing (the RFB or Red Front Fighters) that was larger then the Versailles limited German Army. Unfortunately (or fortunately?), the RFB were banned in 1930 and so when Hitler gained the Chancellorship, he had the formidable power of the State (army and police) as well as almost a half million strong paramilitary army in the form of the SA backing his efforts. Needless to say, none of the other factions could match that kind of force or power. But it certainly wasn't for a lack of trying on the part of the KPD. They essentially declared war on the Nazis years before anyone else did and tens of thousands of them were in resistance organizations long before any German troops entered the Rhineland or invaded Poland.

By then said Communist resistance had been crushed and dismantled by the formidable growing power of Nazi Germany backed by the state (thanks to Goering becoming the Interior Minister at the time), the SA and SS, and their newly formed Gestapo organization.

So maybe some of you braver types didn't just end up in Concentration Camps. Maybe you were beaten to death in some working class district outside of a Nazi-owned pub!

Or shot dead during a street battle!

Or maybe executed by the police after being arrested/captured as opposed to whisked off to the camps!

*coughs* Actually.... When I was doing research to try to do a thorough timeline, the Jews were one of the first to be persecuted. Not to the point of holocaust... just little things.... There's more info here...

Just for some levity...

I died a little when I saw that. That episode just made me so happy.....

[TheGlyphstone]

*coughs* Actually.... When I was doing research to try to do a thorough timeline, the Jews were one of the first to be persecuted. Not to the point of holocaust... just little things.... There's more info here...

That wasn't really exclusive to Germany, though, was it? The Jews got mistreated and persecuted all over Europe for centuries before WW2.

[Neysha]

That wasn't really exclusive to Germany, though, was it? The Jews got mistreated and persecuted all over Europe for centuries before WW2.

Yeah France, Romania, Poland and parts of Hungary and Austeia were all a fair bit more anti semitic in comparison to Germany pre-1933.

[Oniya]

That wasn't really exclusive to Germany, though, was it? The Jews got mistreated and persecuted all over Europe for centuries before WW2.

At least back as far as the Crusades.  One of the first pogroms was the result of a decision along the lines of 'Why should we traipse across Europe to kill Muslims?  We all know who shouted "Crucify him".' 

[Neysha]

*coughs* Actually.... When I was doing research to try to do a thorough timeline, the Jews were one of the first to be persecuted. Not to the point of holocaust... just little things.... There's more info here...

I appreciate the link, it's actually a very well done timeline and picked up on a fair number of things I wasn't aware of chronologically so thank you. You're not wrong, but just in case of this I qualified my statement by stating it was in broad and general terms since it's obvious that the rise of Nazi Germany and its suppression of groups wasn't done on some strict, group by group time table. But between the time periods of when Hitler became Chancellor and the March 1933 elections, the Nazi Party really went all out with their suppression of both the Social Democrats and the German Communist Party and by association, a great many of the trade unions. With the backing of the state they now had a far greater deal of influence on, they were largely successful in those efforts and managed to recoup and gain even more seats in the Reichstag, largely at the expense of the previously most powerful political bloc, the Social Democrats. Thousands of communists and socialist and union members were intimidated, assaulted, imprisoned or killed in these efforts. Now I'm sure this time period wasn't fun for the Jews as well, make no mistake, but I feel when speaking in general terms, the quote by Niemoller as made earlier seems to be chronologically correct, generally speaking.

[Serephino]

What would I do?  If my past life regression is anything to go by... join the Nazi party and become a military strategist.  There are a lot of things you could say helped the Nazis take power, but the clincher was Hitler himself.  He was dangerously charismatic.  Something about him, you hung on his every word when he spoke.  He was good at appealing to people from all walks of life.  It was all too easy to buy what the Nazi party was selling.  That's one of the premier traits of a predator.  He could beat you upside the head with a cane in a fit of schizophrenic bi-polar rage, then when he apologized later you believed him.   

[yobo]

That wasn't really exclusive to Germany, though, was it? The Jews got mistreated and persecuted all over Europe for centuries before WW2.

Very true. Jews was often the scapegoats of societies for centuries leading up to World War II, like if there was sickness in a town the Jews could be blamed for poisoning the water. People often needed someone to blame and the Jews was an easy target. In the Norwegian constitution from 1814 Jews didn't have access to the country, and the paragraph wasn't removed until 1851, so anti-Semitism was certainly not exclusive to Germany in this time period.