Jedi religion founder accuses supermarket of discrimination over rules on hoods

[Lilias]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/18/jedi-religion-tesco-hood-jones

Tesco has been accused of religious discrimination after the company ordered the founder of a Jedi religion to remove his hood or leave a branch of the supermarket in north Wales.

Daniel Jones, founder of the religion inspired by the Star Wars films, says he was humiliated and victimised for his beliefs following the incident at a Tesco store.

Tesco has fired back:

"He hasn’t been banned. Jedis are very welcome to shop in our stores although we would ask them to remove their hoods.

"Obi-Wan Kenobi, Yoda and Luke Skywalker all appeared hoodless without ever going over to the Dark Side and we are only aware of the Emperor as one who never removed his hood."

Ooh, snap.

[Andy]

-Gigglefits- okay, sorry, but i just cant take that serious..

[Will]

HA!  They nailed him there.

[Oniya]

Shop owner 1, Jedi wanna-be 0.

[Revolverman]

Lets see Daniel Jones mind trick away that burn

[OldSchoolGamer]

"Your Jedi mind tricks no work on me.  Only deep knowledge of the Star Wars canon and storyline..."

[The Overlord]

I really can see it both ways. You were offended over a pseudo-religion in a science-fiction setting, dreamed up by some kid from southern California that was highly motivated to be a bigtime movie director...get a grip, dude.

On the other hand, L. Ron Hubbard wrote a fucking book and launched a religion over it...



As far as the 'Tesco' place goes, why the big fuss over a hood in the first place?

They weren't listening to me and were rude. They had three people around me. It was intimidating

So what? What are they going to do, kick his ass? Then he's got them on assault charges. They're store security and management...just how intimidating can they be?

And if you want to quote canon, who's to say they're from the Jedi temple? There were many variant sects among the Force-sensitive...we're splitting hairs here.



Dumb.

[Kaiten]

What kinda Jedi is he if he can get intimidated anyway?

[The Overlord]

What kinda Jedi is he if he can get intimidated anyway?

I was thinking...god damn store rent-a-cops, no less.

[HairyHeretic]

As far as the 'Tesco' place goes, why the big fuss over a hood in the first place?

I don't know if its the same in your part of the world, but over here the hooded top is the fashion item of choice for the teenaged troublemaker. Pulling the hood up provides some degree of identity bluring when you're being recorded on security camera for your later court appearance. :)

[Will]

I can think of lots of places where it's policy to remove hats and/or hoods when entering.  It's the same deal here; cameras have to be able to get a good look at you.

And he did specifically say Jedi.  Not Jensaarai, or Dathomir witches, or Aing-Tii. ::)

[The Overlord]

I don't know if its the same in your part of the world, but over here the hooded top is the fashion item of choice for the teenaged troublemaker. Pulling the hood up provides some degree of identity bluring when you're being recorded on security camera for your later court appearance. :)

But dressing like a hoodrat does not automatically make you one.

If anything, I think the store is guilty of discrimination.

[Inkidu]

Besides any self-respecting Jedi knows you freaking take your hood off indoors! It's just rude!

[The Overlord]

Mmm, I think nothing so clearly spells out 'back the fuck off Jack' like the sound of an igniting lightsaber.

[HairyHeretic]

But dressing like a hoodrat does not automatically make you one.

No, but if you dress in a manner that is associated with problem behaviour, it's logical for someone who doesn't know you to believe that you may be planning to engage in said behaviour.

It may not be the case, but it's understandable why they'd think that way.

If anything, I think the store is guilty of discrimination.

If their shop regulations say everyone has to take off the hoods, or helmets, or what have you, then if you want to continue shopping there, you do as they ask.

[Inkidu]

Mmm, I think nothing so clearly spells out 'back the fuck off Jack' like the sound of an igniting lightsaber.

Well I've always wondered would a regular lead bullet be deflected by a lightsaber.

[Inkidu]

No, but if you dress in a manner that is associated with problem behaviour, it's logical for someone who doesn't know you to believe that you may be planning to engage in said behaviour.

It may not be the case, but it's understandable why they'd think that way.

If their shop regulations say everyone has to take off the hoods, or helmets, or what have you, then if you want to continue shopping there, you do as they ask.

No shirt, no shoes, no service policies like this are the norm. Though they've never said anything about pants...

[The Overlord]

Well I've always wondered would a regular lead bullet be deflected by a lightsaber.

Which in the modern world makes that my weapon of choice...nothing like a little incentive of another gun taking you out to reconsider using yours.

[ShrowdedPoet]

Here there is a no hoods, hats, or masks policy.  It's so if there is an incident the cam gets your face.  Also if you pay attention most convienent stores have a ruler to measure your height in the doorway (at least here they do).  It's their rules and they're damn good rules, there for a damn good reason.

[The Overlord]

Yeah see, I have a fundamental issue with the levels of security we resort to. If I'm not up to something, then having my picture taken without my consent isn't needed.


And to answer your next retort that is coming (if you're not doing anything you have nothing to worry about) you're missing the fucking point. We've gotten used to a certain level of privacy invasion that we've actually allowed ourselves to be convinced it's OK.

[ShrowdedPoet]

I work at a grocery store in a town where armed roberies are rampant.  My grandmother owns a convienant store.  She's been robbed more than once.  I am perfectly fine with that measure of my privacy being invaded if it deters, help catch criminals.  It'll stop people from braining an old lady for all she has.  I'm completely ok with this.

Oh yeah, you read me wrong, that wouldn't have been my retort.  *nods*

[Inkidu]

Yeah see, I have a fundamental issue with the levels of security we resort to. If I'm not up to something, then having my picture taken without my consent isn't needed.


And to answer your next retort that is coming (if you're not doing anything you have nothing to worry about) you're missing the fucking point. We've gotten used to a certain level of privacy invasion that we've actually allowed ourselves to be convinced it's OK.

Your right to privacy is quite limited in public places. You have the right not to be searched on the spot, and that's about it. You have the right not to be manhandled or basically assaulted. In most states.

The fundamental point I make is the Jedi should have removed his hood indoors. Look at the movies. All Jedi remove their hoods while indoors. It's common courtesy.

[The Overlord]

Your right to privacy is quite limited in public places. You have the right not to be searched on the spot, and that's about it. You have the right not to be manhandled or basically assaulted. In most states.

Well you can attempt to do more, but understand I'll defend myself with necessary force if I feel my rights are being violated.



As far as the hat/hood thing goes, you'll forgive me for calling out some of the eccentric little customs we apes have contrived.

Removing a piece of cloth covering your cranium as a symbol of respect, curious when you think about it objectively. Point is, a very big fuss was made over a very trivial occurrence.


If I walk into your house and you treat me as a potential criminal from the get-go, you’re probably going to get the very confrontation you were trying to avoid. I have absolutely no reservations on teaching you respect if you don’t show it to me.

[HairyHeretic]

I'd want to know what the hell you were doing in my house in the first place  :P

If their rules say no head coverings, or whatever type, and he wishes to use their business, he obeys their rules. If he finds them too much of a hassle, there are other places to shop.

Oh, and respect is not taught. It's earned. Try and teach someone 'respect', and you may get fear, or obedience, but you won't have respect.

[RubySlippers]

I bet if he was a Jewish person they would let him where that little cap they wear if a gentleman, how dare the discriminate against the Jedi Faith. And he is like the Pope of that faith the founder so he sets the rules really for the Jedi's.

[The Overlord]

Oh, and respect is not taught. It's earned. Try and teach someone 'respect', and you may get fear, or obedience, but you won't have respect.

Hairy, way I see it, if I have to go toe to toe with someone and can't have thier respect then I'll settle for thier fear, but I digress, this is a original topic that was blown way out of proportion and there's nothing really more to say on it.

[Nimmy]

I bet if he was a Jewish person they would let him where that little cap they wear if a gentleman, how dare the discriminate against the Jedi Faith. And he is like the Pope of that faith the founder so he sets the rules really for the Jedi's.

Part of the thing with the yamaka (yes, that "little cap thing" has a name) is that it's typically on the back or the top of the head, and doesn't obscure facial features unless you take it off and hold it in front of your face. Hoods can have the ability to obscure the face, as do some hats. That seems to be the main problem in this situation.

[Inkidu]

But the Jedi don't seem to tie the same religious sentiment to their hoods that Muslims and Jews tie to their hats.

Hat Etiquette

Historically though I think it's because you don't remove your hat indoors it is showing animosity towards the person or persons inside. A lot of hat etiquette comes from medieval helmet etiquette.
You don't wear a helmet to a friend's house you wear a helmet to battle.

It's like why we shake hands. That comes from showing you have no weapon. Thus come in peace and good will.

[ShrowdedPoet]

Part of the thing with the yamaka (yes, that "little cap thing" has a name) is that it's typically on the back or the top of the head, and doesn't obscure facial features unless you take it off and hold it in front of your face. Hoods can have the ability to obscure the face, as do some hats. That seems to be the main problem in this situation.

Exactly.  The rule isn't to discriminate against anyone.  It's to protect everyone.

[Nimmy]

Exactly. I'm not out to steal anything or harm anyone, but typically upon entering a building I remove my hat/hood. It's for both protection and, like Inkidu said, respect. It's just the way I was brought up. (On a related note, the one thing I don't remove is my "sunglasses" but that's because my glasses have transition lenses and I'm horrifically nearsighted without them. They tend to get light enough within a few minutes that it shouldn't cause a problem.)

[Revolverman]

once you step onto someone elses property (such as the store in question) you don't really have any right to privacy (at least, in the way of your person), because they only let you on to their property if you obey there rules.

If you do not wish to have you face be seen over a security camera, do not go to that store. Simple as that. It is not like they are watching you on your own property.

[Inkidu]

once you step onto someone elses property (such as the store in question) you don't really have any right to privacy (at least, in the way of your person), because they only let you on to their property if you obey there rules.

If you do not wish to have you face be seen over a security camera, do not go to that store. Simple as that. It is not like they are watching you on your own property.

True, as long as they don't discriminate in an illegal way. I doubt the Jedi hood has that much religious importance to the order. Then again I haven't read the extended universe so what the heck do I know. *Oh snap*

[Moon and Star]

Well I've always wondered would a regular lead bullet be deflected by a lightsaber.

Actually, A regular led bullet would be stopped by a lightsaber. A revolver in the Star War universe would be branded a 'slug thrower'. If you want a ranged weapon to kill a Jedi or Sith... invest in a Verpine shatter gun. Essentially a hand held rail gun. Just... ah... make sure you aren't too attached to anything next to or directly behind your intended target. I'm not entirely sure what will be left of the target.

Now when your target is an idiot teenager who claims to be a practicing Jedi, yet doesn't act like one, or seem to know any basic canon... Yeah you're pretty much free to use whatever weapon you want. :P

[Inkidu]

Actually, A regular led bullet would be stopped by a lightsaber. A revolver in the Star War universe would be branded a 'slug thrower'. If you want a ranged weapon to kill a Jedi or Sith... invest in a Verpine shatter gun. Essentially a hand held rail gun. Just... ah... make sure you aren't too attached to anything next to or directly behind your intended target. I'm not entirely sure what will be left of the target.

Now when your target is an idiot teenager who claims to be a practicing Jedi, yet doesn't act like one, or seem to know any basic canon... Yeah you're pretty much free to use whatever weapon you want. :P

Well all I'm saying is:

A.) If a lightsaber is a tube of magnetically contained plasma then the magnetic field would not repel the lead in a bullet, so it might atomize before it hits the Jedi.

B.)You ain't stopping all those little pellets from a twelve gauge and some 00. it just can't be done.

C.)Both methods work great on snotty Jedi teenagers.

[Moon and Star]

Well all I'm saying is:

A.) If a lightsaber is a tube of magnetically contained plasma then the magnetic field would not repel the lead in a bullet, so it might atomize before it hits the Jedi.

B.)You ain't stopping all those little pellets from a twelve gauge and some 00. it just can't be done.

C.)Both methods work great on snotty Jedi teenagers.

A: Possibly.

B: Well the lightsaber might not stop it... It's still possible a Jedi in question might go all Neo from the Matrix on the shooter, which is still a possible pitfall for A as well.

C: Hell yes. 8-)

[Inkidu]

A: Possibly.

B: Well the lightsaber might not stop it... It's still possible a Jedi in question might go all Neo from the Matrix on the shooter, which is still a possible pitfall for A as well.

C: Hell yes. 8-)

Pfft everyone knows how you beat Neo.

Ctrl, alt, del. :)

[OldSchoolGamer]

There is no spoon.

[Hunter]

Besides any self-respecting Jedi knows you freaking take your hood off indoors! It's just rude!

No, no.   Any self-respecting Jedi wouldn't be recorded by the camera at all.   ::)

[OldSchoolGamer]

I have a hard time taking this "Jedi" seriously.

Star Wars is fiction, for God's sake.  Labeled as such.  We don't even have an L. Ron Hubbard-type setup going where Luca claimed to have had some sort of divine revelation or inside info as to how the universe operates.  Lucas no more believes in the Force than Clint Eastwood walks down Main Street with a .44 Magnum blowing away street criminals.  Now, LARPers are fine--maybe they take their roles a little more seriously than us pencil-and-paper gamers, but they understand they are ACTING out FICTION.  But this "Jedi..."

It's fiction.

These people need to get a life.

[Oniya]

If he actually embraced the philosophy (which as I recall, involved peaceful resolution of conflict and respect for all living things and their interrelation), I'd have some more respect for him.  The fact that he's making such a big deal over this - as well as not respecting the custom of the shop-keeper - shows that he's completely missed the point.

Most religions (and I'll lump mine right in there too), viewed from the outside, could be classed as fiction.  Heinlein never pushed the Church of All Worlds (from Stranger in a Strange Land) as a religion, and yet its followers (the ones I've met) have developed it into a viable philosophy.

Founder or not, this guy is just looking for an excuse to dress up.

[Inkidu]

I have a hard time taking this "Jedi" seriously.

Star Wars is fiction, for God's sake.  Labeled as such.  We don't even have an L. Ron Hubbard-type setup going where Luca claimed to have had some sort of divine revelation or inside info as to how the universe operates.  Lucas no more believes in the Force than Clint Eastwood walks down Main Street with a .44 Magnum blowing away street criminals.  Now, LARPers are fine--maybe they take their roles a little more seriously than us pencil-and-paper gamers, but they understand they are ACTING out FICTION.  But this "Jedi..."

It's fiction.

These people need to get a life.

Don't tell the Australians that. It's an official recognized religion down under.

[Lilias]

Don't tell the Australians that. It's an official recognized religion down under.

Likewise in the UK (390,127 members, 0.79% of the population at the 2001 census). The incident would have been a lot more amusing otherwise.

[Will]

Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good security camera. :D

[Revolverman]

What do you call Jedi Extremest?

Sith?

[RubySlippers]

I have a hard time taking this "Jedi" seriously.

Star Wars is fiction, for God's sake.  Labeled as such.  We don't even have an L. Ron Hubbard-type setup going where Luca claimed to have had some sort of divine revelation or inside info as to how the universe operates.  Lucas no more believes in the Force than Clint Eastwood walks down Main Street with a .44 Magnum blowing away street criminals.  Now, LARPers are fine--maybe they take their roles a little more seriously than us pencil-and-paper gamers, but they understand they are ACTING out FICTION.  But this "Jedi..."

It's fiction.

These people need to get a life.

Who says under Multiverse Theory taken to the natural limits there could be at least one unvierse WITH Jedi and Sith in it, in a Galaxy far far away. So it might not be fiction just fiction in this reality we are in.

[Inkidu]

Who says under Multiverse Theory taken to the natural limits there could be at least one unvierse WITH Jedi and Sith in it, in a Galaxy far far away. So it might not be fiction just fiction in this reality we are in.

If there is a multi-verse. (Ironically the idea exists more in fiction, than actual scientific theory)

[Galleon]

The philosophy is fine, but it suffers from all religious drawbacks, it became organised.

[ShrowdedPoet]

I have to disagree.  Organization is great.  What most religions lack is organization.  Take most christians for example.  There are a million different branches and each of them scream that they are the only correct branch.  Yeah, reak organized!

[Inkidu]

I have to disagree.  Organization is great.  What most religions lack is organization.  Take most christians for example.  There are a million different branches and each of them scream that they are the only correct branch.  Yeah, reak organized!

Hey, every Christian used to be Catholic.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Hey, every Christian used to be Catholic.

Not really.  At best, that's an oversimplification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Church