The War Between the States' Education Standards

[DarklingAlice]

As I am sure many of you know, Texas has been attempting (and appears to be succeeding) to revise its education standards in very controversial ways. What you may not know, is that California has been gearing up to fight back with SB 1451.

(g) On March 12, 2010, the Texas Board of Education, which consists of 15 elected members statewide, voted to adopt revisions to their social studies curriculum for the 2010-11 school year (formally referred to as revisions to Texas Administrative Code, Title 19, Chapter 113, Subchapters A-C, and Texas Administrative Code, Title 19, Chapter 118, Subchapter A).

(h) Although not yet formally adopted, it is widely presumed that the proposed changes to Texas' social studies curriculum will have a national impact on textbook content since Texas is the second largest purchaser of textbooks in the United States, second only to California.

(i) As proposed, the revisions are a sharp departure from widely accepted historical teachings that are driven by an inappropriate ideological desire to influence academic content standards for children in public schools.

(j) The proposed changes in Texas, if adopted and subsequently reflected in textbooks nationwide, pose a serious threat to Sections 51204.5, 60040, 60041, 60043, and 60044 of the Education Code as well as a threat to the apolitical nature of public school governance and academic content standards in California.

It will be interesting to see how this dispute between two of the largest textbook purchasers in the nation will play out, I just wish the (already tenuous) quality of American education weren't the stakes of this game.

[Archivist]

As proposed, the revisions are a sharp departure from widely accepted historical teachings that are driven by an inappropriate ideological desire to influence academic content standards for children in public schools.

I'd be interested to know what exactly these "sharp departures" driven by an "inappropriate ideological desire" are. How nice of them to exclude them from the bill.

[Oniya]

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html  This might be helpful.

[DarklingAlice]

Oniya is, as always, on top of things ^_^ Thank you!

[Trouble]

Ok, what the fuck is this bullshittery? This is just insane. These people aren't trying to make a history book; they're trying to cram their own politics into a book and claim it's 'history'.

This passage in particular alarmed me:

There were no historians, sociologists or economists consulted at the meetings, though some members of the conservative bloc held themselves out as experts on certain topics.

If I'm reading a book, learning from a book, I want to be damn sure that the people in charge know what they are talking about. Otherwise, we might as well just turn back the clock and go back to the time when we thought that 'evil humors' caused disease.

[RubySlippers]

I don't see the problem the board is elected so they are acting for the will of the majority in Texas. Same for California I assume.

Democracy in action and no one says states HAVE to buy textbooks following these guidelines from either supplier.

[Oniya]

The potential problem (and with some of the new publishing technologies, it may not be as big an issue) is that Texas is one of the biggest buyers of textbooks.  If the textbook-sellers want to get the Texas market, then they are more inclined to put out a product that Texas schools will want to buy.  If California had gone the same way (and the bill they are introducing shows that they are not), then that would be an even bigger segment of the populace that the textbook-sellers would want to cater to.

An encouraging thing to note is that due to the electronic nature of publishing now, it is more feasible to tailor textbooks to a variety of standards, rather than just the highest bidder.  We just have to hope that having two major buyers with different standards will convince the publishers to take advantage of that ability.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

“In the field of sociology, another conservative member, Barbara Cargill, won passage of an amendment requiring the teaching of “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices” in a section on teenage suicide, dating violence, sexuality, drug use and eating disorders.
‘The topic of sociology tends to blame society for everything,’ Ms. Cargill said. “

So they want sociology to teach personal responsibility instead of focusing on social issues and the effects of society, which is the point of the field.  I’m glad those experts are on that board.

[DarklingAlice]

I don't see the problem the board is elected so they are acting for the will of the majority in Texas. Same for California I assume.

Democracy in action and no one says states HAVE to buy textbooks following these guidelines from either supplier.

Thankfully, facts do not change based on the will of a majority, something the Texas school board seems not to understand.

[Pumpkin Seeds]

I don't see the problem the board is elected so they are acting for the will of the majority in Texas. Same for California I assume.

Democracy in action and no one says states HAVE to buy textbooks following these guidelines from either supplier.

So you agree with everything the government does because the officials are elected?

[Asuras]

Thankfully, facts do not change based on the will of a majority, something the Texas school board seems not to understand.

At least as far as history goes they don't seem interested in inventing facts...just skewing them one way or another, which demands the question whether it's skew or not to mention the NRA in the last thirty years.

[BlisteredBlood]

You wanna talk about some BS in regards to the states' education systems? But if you look here in this article from the 24th of February, it said that the teachers in my old home town were fired only to then rehire them back.

[ReijiTabibito]

“In the field of sociology, another conservative member, Barbara Cargill, won passage of an amendment requiring the teaching of “the importance of personal responsibility for life choices” in a section on teenage suicide, dating violence, sexuality, drug use and eating disorders.
‘The topic of sociology tends to blame society for everything,’ Ms. Cargill said. “

So they want sociology to teach personal responsibility instead of focusing on social issues and the effects of society, which is the point of the field.  I’m glad those experts are on that board.

Personally, I'm surprised that they're teaching sociology in high school, these days.  And while this is definitely an ass-backward method, high school students need to learn about personal responsibility.  Though with so many 'religious' and 'Christian' people in Texas, one would think that they're learning about it at home...

[RubySlippers]

So you agree with everything the government does because the officials are elected?

Its the will of the people they voted these folks in so yes its fine by me. They should vote more carefully. But since its TEXAS nothing shocks me on this. And lets be clear parents to me are the primary educators and schools are to ASSIST in that. So if something is left our or not the values of the parents of the child then they can always take the child to the library, internet sites or the like and teach them their viewpoints. So for me this is not an issue if parents and legal guardians would DO THEIR MORAL DUTY who cares what the state does save lazy parents and if that is the case the state can't be expected to do more than what the voters wanted.

[Inkidu]

I say let publishers just make a special California and Texas edition and sell the rest of us something nice and non-extremist. They can still get the market and if Texas is such an avid buyer along with California then making them pay a little more to make up the difference wouldn't hurt that much. (I know I have no real numbers but I know California and Texas are huge so it seems possible. We are talking a public school textbook.

[Oniya]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think California is trying to make sure their textbooks stay more moderate.

[Inkidu]

I'm not entirely sure, but I think California is trying to make sure their textbooks stay more moderate.

I doubt that, but one of my brothers has a bad experience with California public education but mostly I'm a horribly jaded person when it comes to anything political.

[HairyHeretic]

As far as I can tell from the story, it is the case. California is doing this in response to the crowd in Texas.

[Inkidu]

As far as I can tell from the story, it is the case. California is doing this in response to the crowd in Texas.

That's how it always kind of starts. To quote my mom though, "I don't care who started it. You're both wrong for fighting about it!"

[HairyHeretic]

Have you actually seen the political bias that the group in Texas is trying to implement? They're attempting to rewrite everything they can lay their hands on in line with a right wing Christian focused agenda. They don't care about impartiality. They want their version of everything in there.

[Sure]

It's a pick your bias sort of thing. Texas skews it conservative, California skews it liberal, and they both ruin it for anyone who isn't in agreement with them. Both have a negative influence on the education system, in my opinion.

Regardless, California is not being more moderate, though a certain kind of liberal might think so because California is moving more towards their beliefs. Similarly, a certain kind of conservative might not see as much of a problem with Texas's moves if they agree with the beliefs being implemented.

And California has pressured various national standards to fit with what they want before, as well, though not quite in this manner.

[Inkidu]

Have you actually seen the political bias that the group in Texas is trying to implement? They're attempting to rewrite everything they can lay their hands on in line with a right wing Christian focused agenda. They don't care about impartiality. They want their version of everything in there.

History is inevitably written by the victor. This is no different. Like Sure said it's pick your bias.

[Jude]

There are degrees of bias however.

To say that they're both equal without arguing the facts of the matter is simply ridiculous.

If you're right, then surely you can provide some sort of evidence that California is doing something on the scale of disappearing Thomas Jefferson because of his religious views?

[Sure]

Well, firstly I can point out that I never said they were equal. You are setting up a strawman.

Secondly, declaring something I say ridiculous does not make it so. That is your opinion, perhaps, at most.

Thirdly, yes, there are degrees of bias. The degrees of bias are so biased in of themselves as to be a wholly subjective thing, however.

Now, then, I could very well provide the evidence if you would be so kind as to operationalize the scale to be used and we come to any form of agreement on said operationalization. Until then, however, nobody can prove anything about the matter of which state has done more or less damage, since you seem intent on comparing them.

[HairyHeretic]

Everyone is going to be biased, simply by being who they are. A good academic though would try and limit their own bias, and attempt to present as neutral a work as possible.

This crowd are self admittedly working off a political agenda.

[Trieste]

I kind of wish they would secede and be done with it.

I think it would also be funny if they seceded and were promptly annexed back to Mexico. I wonder how they would feel about affirmative action and minority politics then.

Thankfully, most students who want to learn... will learn. Even in the liberal bastion state of Massachusetts, I was able to learn about other viewpoints as a kid, and as much as we like to think that schools are the be-all, end-all of education, they are not. They are social cesspools, to be certain, but that happens across every state. At least now when there is a student who hasn't heard of Darwinism, they have an excuse for their lack of education. "I'm from Texas."

That seems to be an excuse for a lot of things, these days.

I wouldn't rely too much on California remaining moderate. They are more liberal-leaning than Texas, but California still has a massively conservative-leaning population, especially northern California.

[Chelemar]

One thing, hopefully, the children will have going for them are teachers who do not rely solely on the texts provided by the school, but rely as well on their education and outside sources as well when they teach.

One thing we were always encouraged to do in all of the history courses I took was to look beyond what was the given text and search for more sources.  If, as someone here wrote, the victor wrote the history books, then they want their views to be painted with a broader stroke.  Delving into the finer lines then to get a more intricate look at the rendering is the job of a historian.  A history teacher is still a historian first and foremost. 

[Jude]

Well, firstly I can point out that I never said they were equal. You are setting up a strawman.

I thought that was a reasonable summation of your point, however, I will concede that you didn't actually say that, and thus that you weren't making that point.

Secondly, declaring something I say ridiculous does not make it so. That is your opinion, perhaps, at most.

Stating a conclusion without showing us the evidence from which you drew that conclusion is what I was accusing you of doing--though it seems I was wrong because you weren't trying to make that statement of equality at all.  I do think it's ridiculous to state a conclusion without also providing the information from which you drew that conclusion;  ridiculous was perhaps a flawed term to use to describe it.  It's definitely a poor debate tactic if nothing else; certainly doesn't lead to substantive discussion.

Thirdly, yes, there are degrees of bias. The degrees of bias are so biased in of themselves as to be a wholly subjective thing, however.

Now, then, I could very well provide the evidence if you would be so kind as to operationalize the scale to be used and we come to any form of agreement on said operationalization. Until then, however, nobody can prove anything about the matter of which state has done more or less damage, since you seem intent on comparing them.

It seems to me that you're trying to reduce the discussion to a level of absurdity which essentially blows away the comparison of any political action's bias by requiring an operational definition that would become insanely complicated to state and nearly impractical to utilize.  Generally I applaud this level of precision, but in this case I think your attempts are disingenuous at best and aimed at drawing criticism from your original point, so if we could return to that.

You said: 

It's a pick your bias sort of thing. Texas skews it conservative, California skews it liberal, and they both ruin it for anyone who isn't in agreement with them. Both have a negative influence on the education system, in my opinion.

Regardless, California is not being more moderate, though a certain kind of liberal might think so because California is moving more towards their beliefs. Similarly, a certain kind of conservative might not see as much of a problem with Texas's moves if they agree with the beliefs being implemented.

And California has pressured various national standards to fit with what they want before, as well, though not quite in this manner.

You claim that regardless of the bold section you were not making a statement that California and Texas are equally biased.  Could you please explain what point you were trying to make and provide the evidence to back up your statement?  While you're at it would you...

be so kind as to operationalize the scale to be used and we come to any form of agreement on said operationalization

... so that we'll have criteria to utilize in discussing the degree of moderation.

[Sure]

It seems to me that you're trying to reduce the discussion to a level of absurdity which essentially blows away the comparison of any political action's bias by requiring an operational definition that would become insanely complicated to state and nearly impractical to utilize.  Generally I applaud this level of precision, but in this case I think your attempts are disingenuous at best and aimed at drawing criticism from your original point, so if we could return to that.

My point is that if we do not agree on how to compare things then there can be no comparison. If California pressured the SAT to change its standards, is that better or worse than Texas? Is any change inherently bad or is it only change that causes a bias? If so, what is a bias?

You claim that regardless of the bold section you were not making a statement that California and Texas are equally biased.  Could you please explain what point you were trying to make and provide the evidence to back up your statement?  While you're at it would you...

The point I am making is that California is not moving towards the center with this law. Do you dispute that? Or do you honestly believe that California would object as strongly if Massachusetts was doing this and whitewashed out the more religious founding fathers?

And since I am not trying to compare them, I have no need to operationalize them. I am asserting only that California is not moving towards the center, not that California is worse than Texas (or better, for that matter, or equal). The only thing that could even be taken to imply that is my opinion, which is just an opinion, that they both have a negative effect.

[Oniya]

Except for the fact that by having two radically different curricula (I'm guessing that's correct, since spell-check didn't throw up), the two balance the influences on the textbook market.  If you have one large client that wants you to write out Thomas Jefferson, and another large client that insists on keeping Thomas Jefferson, you're probably going to print both textbooks. 

If, on the other hand, you have one large client that wants you to write out Thomas Jefferson, and your other large client doesn't say anything about it, you might be tempted to just write out Thomas Jefferson to save on printing complications.

[Inkidu]

My point is that it's pointless to fight about it on any level. A state has the right to teach whatever it damn well pleases in its sate. That's its right. Now things like the No Child Left Behind Act (Example do not act on this at all or I will hit you with a pillow) might dictate how much federal dollar that state gets. Things like that. You know why each state's drinking age is 21 but they can set it to whatever they want. Well they like federal money for federal highways that bring traffic through. That kind of thing, etc.

California just doesn't like what Texas is doing so they're rubbing there nose in it. There are plenty of text book publishers out there willing to print whatever the state wants. What one state buys does not really effect what everyone else buys. Having lived in two separate school systems in separate states I sure can say its true.

[Jude]

And since I am not trying to compare them, I have no need to operationalize them.

It's a pick your bias sort of thing. Texas skews it conservative, California skews it liberal, and they both ruin it for anyone who isn't in agreement with them. Both have a negative influence on the education system, in my opinion.

Regardless, California is not being more moderate, though a certain kind of liberal might think so because California is moving more towards their beliefs. Similarly, a certain kind of conservative might not see as much of a problem with Texas's moves if they agree with the beliefs being implemented.

And California has pressured various national standards to fit with what they want before, as well, though not quite in this manner.

Even if you're not comparing Texas to California, which I highly doubt in the context of that quote though I suppose it could still be true, you're still judging California by claiming that they are not becoming more centrist.  Thus you must still operationalize it if you're going to demand the same of me.  By your own words:

I am asserting only that California is not moving towards the center

So you must operationalize what the center is, California's actions, and show how their actions are not moving in that direction.

Or, hey, we could always accept the typical political compass and common sense as "good enough" indicators, instead of making unrealistically rigid demands that a political scientist would have a difficult time qualifying.

p.s. All I really wanted from you was a little bit of information about what California is doing that's so egregious.

[Sure]

Even if you're not comparing Texas to California, which I highly doubt in the context of that quote though I suppose it could still be true, you're still judging California by claiming that they are not becoming more centrist.  Thus you must still operationalize it if you're going to demand the same of me.  By your own words:

Why are you insulting me by implying I am changing the meaning of my words? I know what I meant when I said it, you do not.

You have a point about the center, however.

Regardless, I will establish the center as neither liberal nor conservative. Liberal will, for convenience, be taken to mean similarity to the positions of the largest liberal force in American society, the Democratic Party, while Conservative will be taken to mean the similarity to positions of likewise the largest conservative force in American society, the Republican Party. Actions will, in all cases, be taken over words, except where action is unintended (as determined by mutual agreement). Note that we are not judging the actions by similarity to the actions of the parties but to the rhetoric and claims of the parties.

Now, then, if you want proof of California being liberal and acting in many ways similar to Democratic Party ideals, I can provide that easily. Since California is therefore liberal, and acting against Texas (a conservative state), unless a similar reaction can be shown against Democratic ideals then it is obviously moving towards them if we accept that politics is a continuum between the positions of the two parties. If it is moving towards Democratic ideals from an already Democratic starting point, it is not centrist.

There, that wasn't so hard was it?

p.s. All I really wanted from you was a little bit of information about what California is doing that's so egregious.

What do you mean by this? When did I claim California was doing something 'so egregious'? I don't think either side is doing something particularly egregious. I do believe both sides are putting political pressure on education and so on, in order to fit their view. Not even maliciously or, in some cases, consciously. But that's always been and probably always will be. Is that what you're challenging?

[Jude]

The discussion is about education standards; give me an example of an education standard that California has attempted to set that skews the facts in favor of liberalism.

[HairyHeretic]

Guys .. play nice, ok.

[MasterMischief]

I kind of wish they would secede and be done with it.

As a Texan, I would appreciate not being lumped in with some ridiculous comment made by Governor Perry.

[Brandon]

Maybe I misunderstand something. Why cant these two states turn to private businesses that make books, lay out what they require in the textbook, and then just purchase whichever one meets their needs?

[Trieste]

Maybe I misunderstand something. Why cant these two states turn to private businesses that make books, lay out what they require in the textbook, and then just purchase whichever one meets their needs?

Because textbook publishers aren't going to make two different textbooks if they don't have to.

[Brandon]

Then it seems to me that, if textbooks no longer meet the needs of the state, that state can take its money elsewhere. I still dont see why each state has to be forced to buy the same book when their education needs and standards are different.

[MasterMischief]

I am still sifting through the video, but I thought others might be interested in seeing exactly what was changed.  Texas Education Agency Meetings

You will need RealPlayer or another video player that can play .smil files.