On being a superstitious atheist who plays RPGs

[Beorning]

The thing about being a superstitious atheist who plays RPGs is: it sucks.  >:(

I am one... and it makes me so confused and annoyed with myself. Rationally speaking, I don't believe in God, I don't subscribe to any known religion etc. At the same time, I can't stop wondering: what if that stuff, or some part of it, is true? Especially, the dark and scary parts? I can't decide...

Where does gaming come into this? Well, I'm interested in horror roleplaying... meaning, I have a big soft spot for World of Darkness (both Old and New). But some of that stuff both fascinates me... and scares me. At the same time. Making my head hurt...

Case in point: Mage the Ascension. It may well be one of the best RPGs ever done. There's this 20th Anniversary edition coming, which will most probably be awesome... The problem? I can't play this game! I'm scared of magic. Being raised Catholic, I've long been taught that magic is dangerous and evil. And Mage has (duh) magic: pentagrams, sigils, Tarot and the like. All of that makes me wary... although I'm an atheist. Go figure.

Another example: Demon the Fallen. In many ways, this game presents a brilliant concept. At the same time, it scares me to no end. I mean, I'm seriously afraid that playing this game may open me up for possession or something. And yes, being an atheist, I shouldn't believe in possessions or in demons... and yet, all my life I've been hearing these stories...

Yet another example: Inferno, an NWoD supplement about demons. I thumbed through this book today. My first reaction was: awesome! My second reaction was: I'd be afraid to keep stuff like that in my home... So I won't buy this book. But I'll be longing for it. *groan*

I told you: being a superstitious atheist who RPs sucks. Grrrr.

I guess the point of this rant is, I'd like to know what other people think about it? Does anyone else feel like that?

[Aadreal]

I have an ex that was atheist.  He loved playing clerics because they had proof their gods exist.  Or so he said, I wasn't going to get into the existential argument of belief causing power as opposed to power causing belief. 

I've known some Satanists, many pagans of different paths and a Catholic that was interested in demonic studies.  While I can't speak for the games you've mentioned, various other games and other forms of popular media were quickly denounced by them as being nothing more than fantasy.  And let's be honest, we humans are far more monstrous than any of the various things attributed to demons or dark forces.

If you want to put your mind at ease, I'd suggest studying some of the origins of things.  The pentagram is not automatically a symbol of the Great Beast and is older than Christianity.  As are many other things decried as "evil".  I think if you want to be able to get past this, you need to figure out just why it scares you. Why it worries you.  Why you give these things power over you.  Fear gives power, take it back.   

I can say that I have had numerous religious texts as well as studies on demonology and various rpg texts with dark content in my possession and home.  To the best of my knowledge I have yet to be possessed or haunted or heard voices (except those of my characters) or any of the other bad things I've been told will happen.  I suppose my soul could be doomed to hell as I've been told by some, but eh.  If that's going to happen it will probably be for something I did far worse than buying a book.

[Kythia]

Pentagrams were actually used as a pro-Christian symbol for a long time (though Aadrael is correct that they massively predate Christianity) - represents the five wounds.

I picked up Demon:the Fallen and got home from the shop.  The walls were weeping blood and a hideous hunched creature with blackened skin, legs missing and trailing its innards from the wound, was hauling itself hand of hand down the garden path towards me.  Behind it I could hear screams that still give me nightmares to this day.

Pretty sure it was just a coincidence though.  Similar thing happened when I bough "She's all that" on DVD.

[Scribbles]

I can relate and it makes me want to cry...

I was born into a Catholic family, made to go to a Catholic school and forced to church every Sunday as well as to attend Sunday school just after.

Now, I feel... damaged. I can never renounce God because I'm absolutely terrified of him (the church taught me to be afraid) and there's no question that this fear will be with me for the rest of my life. Even typing this left me hesitant and yet the person in me wants to say so much more...

The best I can do these days is advocate (not force, mind you) parents and schools to allow their children to grow to a less impressionable age before shoving religion into their lives. I feel this would allow children a more coherent choice as opposed to brainwashing them. I think the religious community might be surprised by the results as there are always people seeking guidance, for various reasons. I do feel it has a place in the world and that it serves a purpose, I know a lot of people who have benefitted.

As for the rest, thankfully I was never taught to fear magic and such... I can't imagine how that must feel. When I was younger, I was enthralled by magic and used to gobble up any book that even hinted at it.

[alextaylor]

Eh, it's normal. I think most of us grew up with some kind of superstition, regardless of our surroundings. My grandparents keep a possessed spear in our living room. My uncle has a flying dagger imbued with black magic (I've never seen it fly, but I'll take his word for it!). I've been paid quite a lot to do an exorcism myself. It involved playing Guitar Hero to scare away demons, which was weird but the guy was cured, so they paid me. My sister used to try summoning spirits. Plus I was born in the jungle. Jungles have like one spirit for every 10 monkeys. I'm skeptical about urban people who say they've seen one or two ghosts, because it has nowhere near the creep factor of being near a jungle at night.

Ironically, I'm the exact opposite - an anti-superstitious theist. I live completely immersed in the stuff and just don't see demons and black magic being very harmful at all. It's like in those American horror movies, the ghosts just harass people who don't believe in them ;)

[Beorning]

If you want to put your mind at ease, I'd suggest studying some of the origins of things.  The pentagram is not automatically a symbol of the Great Beast and is older than Christianity.  As are many other things decried as "evil".  I think if you want to be able to get past this, you need to figure out just why it scares you. Why it worries you.  Why you give these things power over you.  Fear gives power, take it back.   

Hmm. I fear these things, because I was raised to believe they were real. I've heard all these Christian opinions that, by involving yourself in magic and occult, you open yourself to evil... and, for instance, Mage is quite close to real-life magic, as it describes mages who use real magical paraphernalia. It's just a bit closer to reality than your typical fantasy magic... Too close to all these things that were supposed to be evil.

I picked up Demon:the Fallen and got home from the shop.  The walls were weeping blood and a hideous hunched creature with blackened skin, legs missing and trailing its innards from the wound, was hauling itself hand of hand down the garden path towards me.  Behind it I could hear screams that still give me nightmares to this day.

Pretty sure it was just a coincidence though.  Similar thing happened when I bough "She's all that" on DVD.

Now you're messing with me...  :P

I can relate and it makes me want to cry...

I was born into a Catholic family, made to go to a Catholic school and forced to church every Sunday as well as to attend Sunday school just after.

Now, I feel... damaged. I can never renounce God because I'm absolutely terrified of him (the church taught me to be afraid) and there's no question that this fear will be with me for the rest of my life. Even typing this left me hesitant and yet the person in me wants to say so much more...

Strangely enough, there was a phase in my life where I wasn't afraid - neither of God, nor of magic. I was simply certain these things weren't real. Now, I'm a bit less sure... so, I'm afraid...

In truth, I'm afraid not just of Christian God. I realize it may sound completely paranoid, but there are days that I'm even afraid of, ekhem, Greek gods. Because if Christian God could be real, then the Greek pantheon could be also be real. Aaaargh.

Eh, it's normal. I think most of us grew up with some kind of superstition, regardless of our surroundings. My grandparents keep a possessed spear in our living room. My uncle has a flying dagger imbued with black magic (I've never seen it fly, but I'll take his word for it!). I've been paid quite a lot to do an exorcism myself. It involved playing Guitar Hero to scare away demons, which was weird but the guy was cured, so they paid me. My sister used to try summoning spirits. Plus I was born in the jungle. Jungles have like one spirit for every 10 monkeys. I'm skeptical about urban people who say they've seen one or two ghosts, because it has nowhere near the creep factor of being near a jungle at night.

*checks Alextaylor's introductory post*

Wow, you're from Malaysia! Cool :)

A possessed spear? Black magic dagger? Okay, I'd really be creeped out, if I had to be near such things...

[Beorning]

By the way: interestingly enough, my older sister has similar problem. She doesn't play RPGs, but she also is an atheist... much more anti-Church one than me, actually. So, she doesn't believe in God... still, she is afraid of demons. She was actually totally creeped out by The Exorcist...

I can relate to this, too. I wasn't moved by The Exorcist, because it's an old movie and it fell a little flat to me... but The Exorcism of Emily Rose? Oh crap, this movie did creep me out. From a purely cinematic point of view, it's a rather good horror movie... but it's supposed to be based on a real story. So, whenever I think about it, I get shivers. What if stuff like that *was* real..?

[Aadreal]

If you spend your life allowing what if's to rule you then you might as well just curl up in a ball and die.  Not meaning to be harsh but what if an airplane falls out of the sky and crushes you.  What if on your way to the doctor you are in a car accident that leaves you paralyzed?  What if...what if...what if.  It never ends.

Many people are raised to believe things.  You've said you were raised Catholic.  And yet you proclaim yourself an atheist.  Well...you've gotten over that teaching, now haven't you?  It's entirely possible to have the shit scared out of you by things you don't believe in.  I refuse to watch horror movies, not because I believe the so call true story it's based on or the tales of terror.  Nope, they scare me and I don't enjoy being scared.  Yet for some reason I'm addicted to shows about ghosts.  Ghosts I believe in, the shows still scare me sometimes and I don't sleep well.  (The movie The Sixth Sense kept me awake for weeks after seeing it.  Each time I saw it.)  But I don't allow myself to be ruled by what if's and keep holy water, salt, bell book and candle or any other typical ghost banishing gear near my bed.

As for Mage being close to real magic...many of the early "practitioners of magic" were in fact scientists but they just didn't have the word for it.  Like I said before, you want to get over the fear, research it.  Not from the point of view of a religious group.  From a historical and academic perspective. 

[Retribution]

World of Darkness has always been marketed as "a game of personal horror." If you have a good Story Teller they can make it very horrifying. Or take it in other ways depending on the flavor preferences. I started out in the genre with Vampire but when I found Demon I fell in love. But what I think makes all WoD games so fascinating is the way religious and historic facts are blended into the back stories in a plausible way. Essentially they are made believable.

Your reaction, shows that the developers did their job well. Relax, it is sort of like I slept on the floor in my parent's room when I saw The Exorcist as a kid.

[TaintedAndDelish]

There's nothing wrong with not being %100 atheist or kinda believing and not believing. I really don't think that such deeply rooted beliefs are just turned off or on all at once with the flick of a switch.

Sometimes the fear of dabbling in perceived danger and hidden knowledge just hits some of those pleasure spots like nothing else can. The right kind of fear can be sexually arousing too. I say experiment and see how these games and occult shenanigans effect your pleasure spots. If you end up feeling really uncomfortable, then just take a break and try to understand why - what button got pushed, what thoughts, feeling and beliefs got triggered, and are these thoughts and beliefs rational and realistic or are they pure superstition.

[Shelyn]

I think what you're feeling is normal, to some degree. I was brought up in an atheist household, so I wasn't christened, never went to church, or anything like that. My parents made sure I was given information about all religions out there (from primary school on, where I took these 'general knowledge' classes where they talked to you about christianity, buddhism, atheism, etc.). They always wanted me to figure it out by myself. I went to a predominantly catholic high school (where most of the students actually weren't religious, which was kind of odd) where we had bible class. Although I was an atheist, I didn't really mind having to study the bible (other religions were mentioned too, though less), I always found it sort of fascinating what people take from old scriptures and how they interpret certain things.

Why i'm telling you this, is cause i'm trying to say that I wasn't raised with a fear of anything. I wasn't taught to fear a god, it wasn't instilled within me that anything like ghosts or demons exist -- quite the opposite. I was taught to rationalize everything and to think it over before concluding what it was.

Which brings me to my case in point: I, the absolute epitome of atheist upbringing, get freaked the hell out by horror movies sometimes. I especially can't watch Asian horror movies, because they play with sound too much (no background music and such). When the phone rang after just watching The Ring at night with friends, we froze and answered it after slowly and deliberately looking at each other. When the door of my old student housing bedroom opened itself at 2 in the morning after I'd just watched paranormal activity, I was frozen to my bed for a considerable while before I got up the nerve to walk over there to see the worn out bolt hanging off the hinges, leaving the old door no other option to open. Sometimes I see shadows in my house, and they freak me the hell out.

You're not alone, my atheist friend. Though your case sounds somewhat more severe than mine, I think it's a natural thing to take the things that you see in movies, games, life, and somehow store some of that, even subconciously. I don't believe in super natural occurances, but when something happens that I don't have an immediate explanation for, when it's dark and gloomy, and a thunderstorm rages outside an open window, it still freaks me the hell out. When I watch a movie or play a videogame, or watch a documentary that involves the paranormal or something akin to that, I still get an unsettled feeling in the pit of my stomach. It makes no sense to me, because I know in my head that it's not real -- but it doesn't matter.

[Beorning]

If you spend your life allowing what if's to rule you then you might as well just curl up in a ball and die.  Not meaning to be harsh but what if an airplane falls out of the sky and crushes you.  What if on your way to the doctor you are in a car accident that leaves you paralyzed?  What if...what if...what if.  It never ends.

I know. Rationally speaking, I should get over my fears and just try having fun with things I enjoy. And yet... I can't. I'm just too afraid of the supernatural...

Yet for some reason I'm addicted to shows about ghosts.  Ghosts I believe in, the shows still scare me sometimes and I don't sleep well.  (The movie The Sixth Sense kept me awake for weeks after seeing it.  Each time I saw it.)  But I don't allow myself to be ruled by what if's and keep holy water, salt, bell book and candle or any other typical ghost banishing gear near my bed.

Aren't you afraid that, one day, the ghosts will come for you? If you believe in them, then you might consider this a possibility...

World of Darkness has always been marketed as "a game of personal horror." If you have a good Story Teller they can make it very horrifying. Or take it in other ways depending on the flavor preferences. I started out in the genre with Vampire but when I found Demon I fell in love. But what I think makes all WoD games so fascinating is the way religious and historic facts are blended into the back stories in a plausible way. Essentially they are made believable.

And when you played Demon, weren't you afraid that this stuff could be real?

I say experiment and see how these games and occult shenanigans effect your pleasure spots. If you end up feeling really uncomfortable, then just take a break and try to understand why - what button got pushed, what thoughts, feeling and beliefs got triggered, and are these thoughts and beliefs rational and realistic or are they pure superstition.

The problem I have here: we have no guarantee that only "rational" things are real...

Which brings me to my case in point: I, the absolute epitome of atheist upbringing, get freaked the hell out by horror movies sometimes. I especially can't watch Asian horror movies, because they play with sound too much (no background music and such). When the phone rang after just watching The Ring at night with friends, we froze and answered it after slowly and deliberately looking at each other. When the door of my old student housing bedroom opened itself at 2 in the morning after I'd just watched paranormal activity, I was frozen to my bed for a considerable while before I got up the nerve to walk over there to see the worn out bolt hanging off the hinges, leaving the old door no other option to open. Sometimes I see shadows in my house, and they freak me the hell out.

The Ring freaked me out, too. As did Paranormal Activity...

You're not alone, my atheist friend. Though your case sounds somewhat more severe than mine, I think it's a natural thing to take the things that you see in movies, games, life, and somehow store some of that, even subconciously. I don't believe in super natural occurances, but when something happens that I don't have an immediate explanation for, when it's dark and gloomy, and a thunderstorm rages outside an open window, it still freaks me the hell out. When I watch a movie or play a videogame, or watch a documentary that involves the paranormal or something akin to that, I still get an unsettled feeling in the pit of my stomach. It makes no sense to me, because I know in my head that it's not real -- but it doesn't matter.

How to deal with this, though? The rational thing to do would be to face the fears (i.e. watch the movies, play the games etc.) and see that nothing bad happens. But what if... something does happen?

Argh. Sorry for repeating myself, but it's one of these matters that really make me confused.

[lilhobbit37]

I think the biggest problem here is that you are trying to shove yourself into the atheist box. Which makes you more confused about everything.

You have beliefs. You just aren't sure what they are. You WANT to believe there is nothing there, but you aren't sure you do. That unsureness leaves you uncomfortable and afraid.

Certain things bring that uncertainty out more, which leaves you more confused, uncomfortable, and afraid.

A piece of you wants to believe it isn't real.

But a piece of you is saying, WTH MAN, IT COULD ALL BE REAL!

I think step one is accepting that whatever you do or don't believe is perfectly ok. You don't have to fit a label.

Once you do that, you can start looking at each individual belief and fear, and figuring out exactly how you feel about it, without feeling like you can't believe because you are athiest.

[Retribution]

Sure some could be real there could be aliens also but I do not lay awake at night fearing abduction. I could get struck by lightening climbing into my deer stand but I still climb. There are a lot of things that could happen but one must look at odds.

As for Demon I am a practicing Catholic. Not terribly devout but practicing all the same and graduated from Catholic high school where I had a priest who swore he saw a possessed woman. Demon the Fallen does not bother me much. I put it in the fiction category since I tend to think real evil is something that makes it look very mild.

[Beorning]

I think step one is accepting that whatever you do or don't believe is perfectly ok. You don't have to fit a label.

Once you do that, you can start looking at each individual belief and fear, and figuring out exactly how you feel about it, without feeling like you can't believe because you are athiest.

Hm. Maybe that's something I have to do, you're right...

Although I fear that, if I allow myself to believe some of these things, I'll end up with some strict belief system that will forbid me to play games and be otherwise creative...

As for Demon I am a practicing Catholic. Not terribly devout but practicing all the same and graduated from Catholic high school where I had a priest who swore he saw a possessed woman. Demon the Fallen does not bother me much. I put it in the fiction category since I tend to think real evil is something that makes it look very mild.

Interesting. I'd have thought that Demon is completely incompatible with Catholicism. From what I've read of the game, it's mythology is a complete blasphemy (God being an oppresive force, Lucifer being a defender of humanity etc.)...

[lilhobbit37]

On the contrary, opening yourself up and allowing yourself to believe also allows that you don't only have to believe in bad.

Case and point, if you believe that a demon can possess you, then it's logical to assume that there are ways to protect oneself against said demon, other than just avoiding said game.

So, if you feel that game A opens you up to possession by Demon B, then find what gives you comfort: Protection C, and allows you to play the game without constant fear.

[Beorning]

So, if you feel that game A opens you up to possession by Demon B, then find what gives you comfort: Protection C, and allows you to play the game without constant fear.

I understand, but the problem is that said games are, more or less, blasphemous. I'm afraid that if I decide to become a Christian again, I'll have to drop the games altogether.

I mean, if you're a Christian and believe that God is good, all-loving etc., then you really shouldn't be playing games that present him in bad light...

[lilhobbit37]

You are looking at things black and white.

Not being athiest doesn't force you to be Christian or any other religion.

YOU choose what you believe, it doesn't have to be what fits into someone else's box. Make your own box or just dance free of any box.

[Kythia]

I understand, but the problem is that said games are, more or less, blasphemous. I'm afraid that if I decide to become a Christian again, I'll have to drop the games altogether.

I mean, if you're a Christian and believe that God is good, all-loving etc., then you really shouldn't be playing games that present him in bad light...

Or reading Dan Brown books, or that other series that everyone loved for a while and then forgot - can't remember the name.  They made a film of the first one and it was shit.  It'll come to me.  Or Harry Potter.  Or playing Unknown Armies (the greatest RPG ever).  Or, frankly, reading the newspapers.

Sure, no one's gonna come round to your house and beat you until you play D:tF.  You don't enjoy the game, don't play it.  But if it bothers you that you don't enjoy it then sure, that's a different issue. 

But worrying about presenting an all loving God in a bad light?  I'm not sure that's a concern.  I can't count the number of times I called my mam a bitch growing up, and my sister spat at her once.  We still get Christmas cards, you know.  An all loving God will forgive you for kicking back with your friends and pretending to be a <whatever> for a Sunday afternoon and even for being mean about Him.

[TaintedAndDelish]

The main problem with indoctrination ( telling you what to believe ) is it bypasses the part where you are supposed to think, form your own conclusions, trust your conclusions, and refine or replace them if you find that you were off. When you are told that you MUST believe things that conflict with reality *or else*, it becomes harder to trust your own conclusions. 

Would a god create a world of people and reasonably expect them to live up to the religious beliefs of ONE religion? Would he likely condemn the rest of the world and smite people for playing DnD ? Sounds kinda silly eh?

[Beorning]

You are looking at things black and white.

Yeah, I know I might have problems with that.  :-\

Not being athiest doesn't force you to be Christian or any other religion.

YOU choose what you believe, it doesn't have to be what fits into someone else's box. Make your own box or just dance free of any box.

Hmmm. Good point.

Or reading Dan Brown books, or that other series that everyone loved for a while and then forgot - can't remember the name.  They made a film of the first one and it was shit.  It'll come to me.

Did it come? I'm curious :)

Or Harry Potter.  Or playing Unknown Armies (the greatest RPG ever).  Or, frankly, reading the newspapers.

Ooh, Unknown Armies. Another RPG I'd be afraid to play. That and Kult. I've heard Kult drives people to suicides...

Sure, no one's gonna come round to your house and beat you until you play D:tF.  You don't enjoy the game, don't play it.  But if it bothers you that you don't enjoy it then sure, that's a different issue. 

But worrying about presenting an all loving God in a bad light?  I'm not sure that's a concern.  I can't count the number of times I called my mam a bitch growing up, and my sister spat at her once.  We still get Christmas cards, you know.  An all loving God will forgive you for kicking back with your friends and pretending to be a <whatever> for a Sunday afternoon and even for being mean about Him.

I don't know. Sounds kind of... arrogant. "I'll play this blasphemous game - because let's face: God is all-loving, so I'm safe. Ha!". I suspect you could find Biblical quotes that would condemn such a thing...

Would a god create a world of people and reasonably expect them to live up to the religious beliefs of ONE religion? Would he likely condemn the rest of the world and smite people for playing DnD ? Sounds kinda silly eh?

Really? That's not what I've been brought up to believe. Back here, the religious circles (at least the conservative ones) teach that you can get possessed because of practicing tai chi...

[Kythia]

Did it come? I'm curious :)

Golden Compass

I don't know. Sounds kind of... arrogant. "I'll play this blasphemous game - because let's face: God is all-loving, so I'm safe. Ha!". I suspect you could find Biblical quotes that would condemn such a thing...

Meh, I can find Bible quotes to support whatever the hell position I feel like.  Here's a couple of pro-roleplaying ones (using the ESV.  Because I'm drunk)

Romans 12:2
Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

2 Timothy 1:7
For God gave us a spirit not of fear but of power and love and self-control.

All I meant though is that if roleplaying certain games is blasphemous (which, yeah, I'm happy to agree with on some cases) then God still isn't gonna let anything bad happen to you.  Sure, you can say its arrogant but its kinda what "all-loving" means, you know.

[Aadreal]

As was mentioned, just because you decide there is something more, doesn't mean it has to be Christianity.  And from what you've stated, your experience is mainly in Catholicism.  I'm Lutheran, made the choice as an adult.  The pastor of the church I attended (I left due to issues between myself and several members) was actually reading Harry Potter back when I first took the "is this for you" classes.  There are denominations of Christianity that are not as stringent or as...well...close minded as I've found Catholicism to be.  There are also a vast number of religious paths.  Explore them, research them.  There's nothing wrong with it.  Find what feels right to you.  While I'm Lutheran I have a mix of other things thrown in.  Things that feel right to me. 

As for your question about ghosts...nope.  Sure there's a chance one might get a hair up it's ass and decide to attempt to do some damage to me.  I honestly believe that has happened to me in the past with an ex.  There are ways to protect yourself, ways to fight them.  Am I going to live my life in fear of it happening again?  Nope.  There are more important things to worry about, such as paying rent and keeping up with my rp's. 

[Ephiral]

Ooh, Unknown Armies. Another RPG I'd be afraid to play. That and Kult. I've heard Kult drives people to suicides...

I've got a copy of Kult. The only thing suicide-inducing about it is that it's more pretentiously "Look how edgy we are!" than early White Wolf. Then again, I'm a filthy socialist social-justice-loving atheist, so I'm probably just trying to trick you out of your soul.

[TaintedAndDelish]

Really? That's not what I've been brought up to believe. Back here, the religious circles (at least the conservative ones) teach that you can get possessed because of practicing tai chi...

I understand what you are saying. I'll say two things to you that changed my life completely:

1. Seek the truth and the truth will set you free.    ( Yes, that's from the bible. Take it to heart. )

2. Question the answers, question the *saints*. 

[Beorning]

Golden Compass

Ah! That one. Scary atheist propaganda, I've heard ;)

All I meant though is that if roleplaying certain games is blasphemous (which, yeah, I'm happy to agree with on some cases) then God still isn't gonna let anything bad happen to you.  Sure, you can say its arrogant but its kinda what "all-loving" means, you know.

Well, the counter-argument here would be that, if possessions do happen, then either God allows them, or is unable to stop them. In any case, not a funny situation for the person possessed...

BTW. I'm quite curious which games you do consider blasphemous.

I've got a copy of Kult. The only thing suicide-inducing about it is that it's more pretentiously "Look how edgy we are!" than early White Wolf. Then again, I'm a filthy socialist social-justice-loving atheist, so I'm probably just trying to trick you out of your soul.

Heh. But I admit that for me, what I've seen of Kult, looked verrrry dark.

Aadreal, Tainted - thanks for all the wise words. I have nothing to add right now...

[Cyrano Johnson]

I guess the point of this rant is, I'd like to know what other people think about it? Does anyone else feel like that?

I think it's totally natural to have hangover effects from lifelong indoctrination in superstitious beliefs, even if one rationally doesn't hold to them. I've never felt any genuine fear of demonic possession or of hell... but I won't deny I have a few bones of supernatural belief kicking around in my own mental closet, even if they don't amount to entire skeletons.

On the one hand, it can be rewarding to push through that, and use those feelings for characterization. If those fears are real for you, and the tension between them and rationality is a zone of discomfort for you, you can play a character who has similar conflicts and fears. A lot of people have trouble with RP'ing weakness and flaws in their characters; a great way to overcome that difficulty is to give your character weaknesses and flaws that you can identify with. You can use them as a way to work through that in a safe setting. (My character in the Shadowrun 2070 RP, for example, was an embodiment of my simultaneous attraction to and revulsion at the romanticized gangster lifestyle.)

On the other hand, it's supposed to be fun above all else. If the fear is too deep-seated for you to find it fun, you shouldn't feel bad about choosing subject matter that you're more comfortable with.

[RedFangedWerehawk]

Hmm... This is quite a fascinating topic. About half way through my undergrad education several years ago, I decided to take the plunge into Atheism. Before that I believed that everything had a purpose and was part of a great plan. I would pray every night and would occasionally feel guilty about never going to church. I was moderately superstitious at the time as well.

Now? Making the choice to be an Atheist is one of the most freeing decisions of my life and I never looked back. I knew it was something that I had to commit to 100% and if you ask for my personal opinion, I will tell you that there is absolutely no chance of a God or higher power that exists in the universe. I also believe that there are no such things as ghosts, magic, demons, spirits or souls. The decisions I make are not based on a book or even a community but are instead driven by my own will. At first I thought I was going to be afraid of incurring some supernatural wrath for not believing... well, I'm still here! Besides, if you don't believe something to exist, how can it affect you anyways?

That being said, I absolutely LOVE anything that has to do with magic, the supernatural or various mythologies. Everything that I reject as part of the physical fabric of reality is still valid as figurative language, poetry and metaphor. I still use the idea of the soul to describe my state of being. I still use the term spirit to represent and describe my state of mental fortitude. These ideas never go away just because you don't see them as literal. I personally don't even believe Gods, demons, magic, sky cake, etc... are supposed to be literal. It's far more interesting when we use these things as metaphors to represent the 'demons' or obstacles in our everyday life. They are used to explain away things we don't yet understand or tell stories to the next generation to teach them life lessons.

RPGs are great and there is no need to be afraid of the contents. (Obvious statements are obvious)  :-) If it helps, think about the aspects that scare you in these books as what they are supposed to represent to the character or the people that make up that world on a more analytical level. What if the Zombies were actually a metaphor for the fear that we have in the back of our minds of becoming one with society in a way that we have to sacrifice all sense of individuality. In a world where Lucifer is the force of good, on a higher level it could be a representation of the Game Designers yearning to rebel against the status quo. See what I'm getting at? There are not right or wrong answers either! You can engage in the games on a higher level and still keep the content separate from your perception reality.

On a more general note, it's not always easy being open about being an atheist. If you or any other atheists that come across this ever need to chat about being atheist or exchange atheist philosophies, I encourage you to shoot me a PM! I am more than happy to talk about it.

Oh and remember: Do what makes you happy. Damn the rest!  ;)

[Florence]

I can related kind of. I don't have a fear of any of those bible-taught things. Rather I sort of have a general fear of death. I was raised Catholic, ya know, always thinking there was an 'after', a happy little reward after you die, where you spend all eternity with your loved ones and all that blah blah blah.

Now, as an atheist, I have to face the very real likelihood that when I die, I will stop existing. It scares me and I blame religion for that fear. I think if I was raised to see the world more realistically, I would have been mentally and emotionally prepared to accept that reality. Instead, as I got older, I just stated realizing that all of these things I've been told are completely unfounded in any sort of scientific fact. And frankly, that sort of realization can leave you feeling a little empty.

Buddhism's helped though. Once you accept that the world is full of suffering, and that suffering comes largely through having perceptions of how the world SHOULD be as opposed to how it is, as well as our attachments to these ideas... then it gets a little easier to handle. Or maybe its just me.

[Cthonig]

I understand, but the problem is that said games are, more or less, blasphemous. I'm afraid that if I decide to become a Christian again, I'll have to drop the games altogether.

I mean, if you're a Christian and believe that God is good, all-loving etc., then you really shouldn't be playing games that present him in bad light...

    Well, then you're going to have a problem if you avoid things which present God in a bad light; it's hard to be a Christian who doesn't read the Bible. If you stick to reading the New Testament sans Revelation then you'll be okay. But the Old Testament and Revelation portray God as a very malevolent being if looked at objectively. Right from the beginning setting up Adam & Eve with the bogus "original sin". And the Flood is one of the most monstrous acts ever committed by any being even if you include all fiction. Although the concept of Hell is worse: suffering for all time even for a small transgression? EVIL - from the human perspective.

    So, frankly, none of the games portrays God in any worse light than Christianity does. Plus, how often is it in the news that a gaming group summoned a demon or turned lead into gold or mind controlled a hot woman into having sex with them? Yeah, never. You have nothing to worry about.

    Given how you feel, should you dive right into the ones that make you the most afraid? No. That would not be at all helpful. Take it gradually at a pace you can handle. Even if such things as demons existed, the games are pure fiction and you are not in any danger.

    You are in far more danger from other people: never admit to a fervently religious person that you have even considered reading or playing any RPG as they have this delusion that all of them are evil. Because, you know, even Toon features violence.   :P

[Beorning]

So... the problem persists. I'm considering buying Inferno, but... I'm a bit scared.

What if the religious people are right and these things (demons) do exist???  :o

[Florence]

So... the problem persists. I'm considering buying Inferno, but... I'm a bit scared.

What if the religious people are right and these things (demons) do exist???  :o

Then I would have been dragged into hell long before you. :P I've played DnD and Pathfinder, Pokemon... read Harry Potter. Love the Shin Megami Tensei series. I'm an atheist and a Buddhist to top it off. I also like metal xD And I had a sort of goth phase in high school. I'm pretty sure if the demons were going to come out and drag me to hell or something I'd be gone by now.

... unless of course... I'm secretly one of them, sent here to temp you...  >:)

... nah, I'm just fucking with you. Totally 100% born and bred human. Though I did get a sore throat from drinking holy water once. I'm almost positive that had more to do with drinking germy water though, and less to do with the wrath of the almighty.

[Beorning]

Then I would have been dragged into hell long before you. :P I've played DnD and Pathfinder, Pokemon... read Harry Potter. Love the Shin Megami Tensei series. I'm an atheist and a Buddhist to top it off. I also like metal xD And I had a sort of goth phase in high school. I'm pretty sure if the demons were going to come out and drag me to hell or something I'd be gone by now.

I don't know. I may be mistaken, but none of this stuff involves real-life demons. And Inferno actually gives you tools to play a possessed person...

[Florence]

I don't know. I may be mistaken, but none of this stuff involves real-life demons. And Inferno actually gives you tools to play a possessed person...

I own a set of tarot cards and a Ougi board? I don't use them anymore, not out of superstition but... well, the exact opposite, I think they're completely pointless. But I own them, and was into all that occult stuff as a kid. Psychics and mystics and that sort of stuff.

[Beorning]

Hmm. Okay.  :-) Maybe you do have a point. You played with an Ouija board? I wouldn't dare doing that...

[Oniya]

Hmm. Okay.  :-) Maybe you do have a point. You played with an Ouija board? I wouldn't dare doing that...

I did that once.  It claimed to be John Lennon.  It also claimed to be stoned.  The fact that it came from Parker Brothers may have had a lot to do with that.

[TaintedAndDelish]

Religious indoctrination ( ie. you will believe this without question because your opinion on the matter is worthless ) can really screw with your mind and make you feel terribly insecure.

Let me answer your question with a very simple question.   ( I'm Irish, can you tell? )

Your common sense is telling you that all this demon stuff is complete rubbish. You have logical reasons to believe its crap. So why do you keep going back to believing the unprovable religious stuff ( ie. Demons will feast upon thy soul! )

Could it be that you have somehow been trained to distrust your own ability to reason and draw reasonable conclusions?

[Beorning]

I did that once.  It claimed to be John Lennon.  It also claimed to be stoned.  The fact that it came from Parker Brothers may have had a lot to do with that.

Heh.

Love your new avatar, BTW.

Your common sense is telling you that all this demon stuff is complete rubbish. You have logical reasons to believe its crap. So why do you keep going back to believing the unprovable religious stuff ( ie. Demons will feast upon thy soul! )

Could it be that you have somehow been trained to distrust your own ability to reason and draw reasonable conclusions?

Well, maybe. But it also may have to do with me having watched too many X-Files episodes and reading too many paranormal-related stories... Or movies like The Exorcism of Emily Rose (which is supposed to be based on facts).

The thing is, with matters like these, I don't really know what is logical and probable. I mean, the case of the real Emily Rose, Anneliese Michel. It is creepy and some people believe it to be a real case of possession...

[Oniya]

The thing is, with matters like these, I don't really know what is logical and probable. I mean, the case of the real Emily Rose, Anneliese Michel. It is creepy and some people believe it to be a real case of possession...

First thing I found on Anneliese Michel said that it was a misdiagnosis of a mental illness and/or epilepsy, and her death was caused by malnutrition and dehydration. 

[Beorning]

First thing I found on Anneliese Michel said that it was a misdiagnosis of a mental illness and/or epilepsy, and her death was caused by malnutrition and dehydration.

Well, that's what the men of science say. Religious people, on the other hand, seem to have different opinion...

Another example: recently, I read an article in a Catholic newspaper that said that, if you go to a spa that employs Eastern relaxation techniques, you and your family may end up as targets for demons. And, if you visit historical sites related to Nazis, you might get possessed and made to kill yourself. What if this is true..???

[Oniya]

Then there are several million people in China, Japan, and India who are very likely to be possessed by demons.  If this were the case, even if such possessions were rare, we would see a lot more verifiable cases based on statistics alone.

[Beorning]

Hm. Good point, thanks :)

[Kythia]

Unless the statisticians of those countries are also possessed by demons and are hushing it up so that no one realises. 

[Florence]

Ya know, this all sounds like a really good rp plot...

[Oniya]

Unless the statisticians of those countries are also possessed by demons and are hushing it up so that no one realises. 

As someone who has studied math for years, I can tell you that's impossible.

Statisticians being possessed by demons would simply be redundant.

Ya know, this all sounds like a really good rp plot...

And this is how you know it's a thread on Elliquiy.  ;D

[TaintedAndDelish]

Well, that's what the men of science say. Religious people, on the other hand, seem to have different opinion...

I think "opinion" is the key word here.

The thing is, with matters like these, I don't really know what is logical and probable. I mean, the case of the real Emily Rose, Anneliese Michel. It is creepy and some people believe it to be a real case of possession...

Here, the key word is "believe"

[Oniya]

There's a principle in science called 'Occam's Razor' that would serve you well.  Basically the idea is to start with the simplest explanation, and only add to it if you need to.  Doctors often explain this to interns as 'If you hear hoofbeats, expect horses, not zebras.'  For example, if a lightning strike hits a cell tower, you could explain it as angry spirits trying to destroy it - but that requires there to be angry spirits that can control lightning.  Or, you can explain it as an electrical discharge taking the easiest path to the ground.  Since you can actually measure electric potential, this requires a lot less to be filled in by the 'unknown'.

[TaintedAndDelish]

It helps to understand what makes a statement/belief untrue or fallacious.
https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=24133.0

[Braioch]

Eh, it can take time to shed yourself of those superstitions. No need to kick yourself about it, and certainly don't let them rule your life. As Oniya pointed out, Occam's Razor helps a lot with that whole shenanigans. A vast majority of superstitions make no sense whatsoever, and they certainly don't apply to your life. Just look up the reasons behind these things, as for the demons...well, let's be honest with that one, people don't need any help being awful, they do quite well on their own. There's all the decisive lack of evidence for such things...beyond personal stories with a lack of credibility.

Also, Tainted's link helps for finding logical fallacies, or you can use https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ for a much more simplified and intuitive understanding of fallacies. (Supplement it with Veks fallacy post and you'll have a broad and easy to understand view supplemented by a more detailed look, everybody wins)

[Vanity Evolved]

Also, keep in mind, being atheist doesn't require you to completely shed yourself of every aspect of illogical belief; as long as it's not detrimental to your life (at least, in my opinion). I accept the idea that ghosts arn't real, I like to think they are, I like to play with ouiji boards and such, knowing ghosts most likely don't exist but it is nice to pretend someties.

Heck, even if you -seriously- do believe in ghosts, there is nothing wrong with that; you only have a problem when you start believing in these things to the point it has an influence in your life (Ghosts tell you to leave your job, you refuse to live at your house because you're convinced a ghost wants to kill you, etc.)