WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[Inkidu]

Here's a discussion of why Space Women Marines wouldn't be thing, not because the process doesn't work but because it isn't used. Because the Imperium is the Imperium and the social commentary that entails. https://askrobouteguilliman40k.tumblr.com/post/702055429799395328/gender-and-warhammer-40000

Yeah but these are custodes, which are different and created by different processes, but yes I generally agree and that's something people forget. 

The lore exists to push plastic. 

They like the lore, but the lore is to get people into the TTG where they make their money. 

I am pro-female space marines. But I acknowledge only two arguments against them that hold any weight:

1. It's GW's property and they can do what they want with it. 

2. It would ruin the dystopian pubescent Peter-Pan fantasy that the space marines have come to represent. Girls have cooties and they can't do cool things like fight and quest and hang out with the boys.

[Andol]

Yeah but these are custodes, which are different and created by different processes, but yes I generally agree and that's something people forget.

The lore exists to push plastic.

They like the lore, but the lore is to get people into the TTG where they make their money.

I am pro-female space marines. But I acknowledge only two arguments against them that hold any weight:

1. It's GW's property and they can do what they want with it.

2. It would ruin the dystopian pubescent Peter-Pan fantasy that the space marines have come to represent. Girls have cooties and they can't do cool things like fight and quest and hang out with the boys.

So you are flat out ignoring the in lore reasons why female marine's don't exist? Yeah sure GW could change that at any time, but they would be going against established lore to do so. Here let me just link you my favorite bit of info on why,



I was annoyed about the female Custodes, not because it is exist. As in the lore they are made form Dark Age tech. To say that Dark Age tech couldn't create Custodes of both genders is really really stupid.

No what bothers me is because they didn't put out a new model. It was just a one off mention in the codex. They had plenty of time to throw something into the Horus Heresy books over it, especially the Siege of Terra, but now that those are over the only logical thing to do would be to say the female Custodes where not there during the Emperors time of need. Also he always referred them as his 'Sons'... so that is kind of weird... along with many other mis-pronoun use by the Custodes calling each other by male pronouns throughout the written lore.

I mean I had a bit of a head-canon as to why they were not around as it was the only thing that made sense remotely. In that they used to be guardians for Eruda... and when she joined Horus during the Heresy, they went into self exile in their shame for not seeing it sooner. Now they are back to reinforce the 10,000 due to the various problems going on.

The whole thing reeks of lazy writing which at this point doesn't surprise me. 

[Norwegian One]

I like Bricky's take on the matter, and I agree with his main points:

https://youtu.be/9pBJb_OjxEI?si=0fjDqz1NWLha_5Zl

1) ret-cons happen all the time.
2) the way this particular one was presented was less than ideal.
3) saying that "female Custodes removes the point of the Sisters of Silence" reduces their main purpose to 'being a female counterpart', which does them a disservice. 
4) a very vocal minority in the 40k fandom sometimes makes it embarrassing to be a Warhammer fan.

[Inkidu]

So you are flat out ignoring the in lore reasons why female marine's don't exist? Yeah sure GW could change that at any time, but they would be going against established lore to do so.

No, it's just covered under reason one. It's their property, they're the lore keepers. They can change the lore. No fan has any ownership of that, they can't change it, all they can do is choose to engage with it or not and female custodes just doesn't break the bank for me and is at least more in keeping with the potential lore of the series if not its traditions. If you think the writing is lazy that's fine, but it's not like they can't do it or won't.

My personal reasons as to why or why not female space marines are really immaterial. Maybe old Emps is just a sexist, maybe he's just not that smart, but you're not going to convince me it's impossible given what the emperor had to pull to make the space marines in the first place, and like I also said, there's reason two. It does ruin that bit of the--as we're reminded every book--to be a human in the 41st millennium is to live in the worst regime EVER. It's a bad place, no one's good, everything is bad all the time, and that comes with thing like sexism, xenophobia, hatred, and all sorts of bad things. I think the problem with the fanbase is they get in their little camp or they laugh at the one funny Necron or they think the Orks are a right good bunch of lads and they forget that this is all bad, all the time, and that's the point.

If you want the Doylist reason as to why their were no female space marines and no female custodes it wasn't something designed from the start. The first edition apparently had female space marine models and the custodes looked really bondagy. The thing was the female models didn't sell to teenage boys in the 80s so shops didn't want to carry dead stock.

The lore, as much as they do put effort into it exists to push plastic and it is shaped by their product line decisions and not the other way around. Now they have been pretty firm on no girls in space marine clubhouse for years, but not every custodes was ever at the emperor's side. What if some the lads and lasses were stuck at the gates. If Emps could call up his whole honor guard then Horus wouldn't have been an issue.

While I tend to agree it's a little lazy it's nothing that shoring up some writing couldn't fix in the future. Everyone hated Primaris Marines off the cuff too. I just acknowledge that the no-female-space-marine camp and the female-space-marine camp both have no power over what is done by GW. I just think people often use "lore" to as some immutable thing when they really mean tradition.

All you can do is engage or walk away, the latter being easier I imagine if you don't have model armies with lots of money sunk into them. Sure, could it end up like modern Star Wars or insert ruined property here? Yeah. Sucks, but I've never seen a fan boycott that worked.

PS. Really the SoS are just gold SoB and that's GW's fault, don't get me wrong, but also I bet dollars to doughnuts the SoS lines just don't sell well. 

[greenknight]

It's a retcon that becoming a spehss mehreen requires male biology. The Imperial Commander is now the chapter master and the Dark Angels' is no longer called the Custodian, too. <shrug>

[Andol]

It's a retcon that becoming a spehss mehreen requires male biology. The Imperial Commander is now the chapter master and the Dark Angels' is no longer called the Custodian, too. <shrug>

Do you have a source for this Green Knight that shows that this is a retcon? Oh and no the change from Rogue Trader to 40k isn't a retcon as the base lore wasn't codified in the way we know it at the time.

No, it's just covered under reason one. It's their property, they're the lore keepers. They can change the lore. No fan has any ownership of that, they can't change it, all they can do is choose to engage with it or not and female custodes just doesn't break the bank for me and is at least more in keeping with the potential lore of the series if not its traditions. If you think the writing is lazy that's fine, but it's not like they can't do it or won't.

My personal reasons as to why or why not female space marines are really immaterial. Maybe old Emps is just a sexist, maybe he's just not that smart, but you're not going to convince me it's impossible given what the emperor had to pull to make the space marines in the first place, and like I also said, there's reason two. It does ruin that bit of the--as we're reminded every book--to be a human in the 41st millennium is to live in the worst regime EVER. It's a bad place, no one's good, everything is bad all the time, and that comes with thing like sexism, xenophobia, hatred, and all sorts of bad things. I think the problem with the fanbase is they get in their little camp or they laugh at the one funny Necron or they think the Orks are a right good bunch of lads and they forget that this is all bad, all the time, and that's the point.

Well it is as you said above you can choose to engage with the lore or not and by outright throwing the reasons given right from the lore as to why they can’t be made out the window and saying “You can’t convince me…”. Then you are not engaging the lore, so you are right… I can’t convince you of anything in a good faith argument that is based on the lore of the setting so I won’t even try on that end. Because you will ignore any sources I bring forth.

I don’t think there is any problem with the fan base as a whole. In fact among 40k players I have found a group of guys who have been very supportive in many areas of my life. So I get the feeling you have a very negative outlook on people who play the game or something… I mean if I am wrong I am sorry, but that is just how I read into it.

Plus you are ignoring  the fact that in this dark setting it is how humanity reacts despite all the horror that goes on around them that makes it good. There are many interesting characters and some I find relatable. Including the demi-god primarchs themselves who where always my favorite characters… the Heresy books where great.

I am leaving more evidence from the lore here, because I prefer to bring the receipts when it comes to talking about it.

If you want the Doylist reason as to why their were no female space marines and no female custodes it wasn't something designed from the start. The first edition apparently had female space marine models and the custodes looked really bondagy. The thing was the female models didn't sell to teenage boys in the 80s so shops didn't want to carry dead stock.

Ah well I can explain that part to you. The ‘first edition female marine’ as you call her. Her name was Space Warrior Jane. She was actually created during the Rouge Trader era and this was before the lore of the game was codified down.

Below was a bit about them from the Rouge Trader days, kind of hard to read, but it study the picture and the old model you are referencing we can see a lot of Sister of Battle's future regalia in the picture and then a few things on the model's shoulder pad being similar. This is what I will mean below when I talk about it being a proto-Sister of Battle.


 


However, what we did get was something better. You see that model is seen as the proto-Sister of Battle. The Sisters of Battle are way cooler. I got into 40k because of them and it was only in 8^th edition that GW really gave them their due as well as in 9^th. To me the presence of female marines would allow GW to be lazy again.

They need to support the Sisters of Battle more. Give us more sprues to make female Imperial Guard. Give the Sisters of Silence better rules so that they are not just used as a single squad back field objective holder and can legit be taken as an entire army and they would sell better.

Lore and tabletop wise the Sisters of Battle are just as good as the Marines. They were the same armor, and even have their own version of the WAGGHHH. Their belief in the Emperor makes stuff happen. The more there are in an area… the more effect it has. This is represented in miracle dice rules and it is awesome.

You asked about the Sisters of Silence and how they sell… they sell as they are needed to hold back field objectives. Oh and they are not Gold Sisters of Battle. That is ignoring everything about what makes these two groups of ladies different and what they do both on and off the table top, but yeah… gross simplification being what it is my dude.

The lore, as much as they do put effort into it exists to push plastic and it is shaped by their product line decisions and not the other way around. Now they have been pretty firm on no girls in space marine clubhouse for years, but not every custodes was ever at the emperor's side. What if some the lads and lasses were stuck at the gates. If Emps could call up his whole honor guard then Horus wouldn't have been an issue.

Eh maybe so as GW has always said they are a model company and not a game company. Also when I meant the Emperor’s time of need I meant during the siege of terra itself, but I understand what you mean. However in that moment he faced Horus you do understand that yes he could have done what you said, but he didn’t for a reason.

He was trying to save his son, or at the least look for a way to. To see if there was something within Horus worth saving, and that was what allowed Horus to stab the Emperor and injure him so. If the big E had been out to kill from the start… it would have been over too quick. It was only when the Emperor saw how callously the biggest Giga Chad in the universe… Ollanius Pius… a regular guardsmen who stepped forward to protect his master in his time of need… was cut down by Horus did he see his son was lost. So he struck him down and ended that fight.

While I tend to agree it's a little lazy it's nothing that shoring up some writing couldn't fix in the future. Everyone hated Primaris Marines off the cuff too. I just acknowledge that the no-female-space-marine camp and the female-space-marine camp both have no power over what is done by GW. I just think people often use "lore" to as some immutable thing when they really mean tradition.

Oh your wrong about them having no power. People have a lot of power when they can vote with their wallet and Warhammer is an expensive hobby. Also you keep using lore as though it means nothing and so I wanted to bring that up here.
 
If lore really means nothing, then why does it matter if they don’t have female space marines? As a player someone can build their own models that are female space marines. In fact there are two lost legions just for this purpose. GW built them in so that people can make up custom legions for themselves. You don't need GW to do it for you.

The lore is the setting and the rules of the setting and the world created. Yes 40k is pretty grimdark and goes in many directions at once, but it does have its clear set of world building rules. If you just strip those away then what is the point of investing time into models or emotion into the setting if the core of the setting is just rendered meaningless all the time because ‘lore means nothing’?

All you can do is engage or walk away, the latter being easier I imagine if you don't have model armies with lots of money sunk into them. Sure, could it end up like modern Star Wars or insert ruined property here? Yeah. Sucks, but I've never seen a fan boycott that worked.

The mistake GW is making is they jack up their prices all the time. 3d printers go brrrr. If they keep pissing off their core fanbase then people can keep playing Warhammer, but just 3d print their miniatures… it is that easy. 3d printing GW models is becoming cheaper than buying or anything Warhammer related.

It won’t be a boycott, but it will be a slow death of really the only hobby that I have in my local area that has brought me the most joy. I see this female Custodes as GW stupidly putting their toe in the Rubicon... and if they made female space marines... it would be the crossing of it.

3) saying that "female Custodes removes the point of the Sisters of Silence" reduces their main purpose to 'being a female counterpart', which does them a disservice.

No... no it doesn't. Because you are missing the entire concept of the Talon's of the Emperor. The Custodes and Sisters of Silence have to work together because they compliment each other in battle. They represent the very pinnacle of men and women fighting side by side in the Imperium of man. Each with skill sets that are different, but without the other they could not do their job of protecting the Emperor and preforming his will.

So my point still stands that female Custodes reduce this entire meaning behind the Talons...