Should Americans Fear The Police???

Started by TheMusician, January 18, 2015, 12:35:45 AM

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TheMusician

Quite recently, as I'm sure many of us know, there has been a great deal of controversy surrounding excessive force used by police. Case names that come to mind are the Michael Brown case, the Eric Garner case, and the Boyd case in Albuquerque.

What all these cases have in common is an extreme lack of necessity for deadly force, yet in each instance, deadly force is used. Eric Garner WAS a big man, yes, but I think five trained police officers are sufficient to bring almost any man down. The use of the chokehold was very unnecessary. Michael Brown was an unarmed teen who was shot SIX times, once in the head.

Now, because I have seen the Boyd video, I do know that he WAS holding a knife, but he never would have drawn it had state troopers not first thrown a flashbang at Boyd, who was cooperating with them and agreeing to move from his spot up until that point. It is also horrifying to see the officers let an attack dog loose on Boyd's body, even after he had already been shot and was lying face down in the dirt.

I have also seen footage of police arresting several friends after they started filming a video on the deck of an observatory. There were no trespassing signs placed at the observation deck until after the incident. The officers also seized and damaged the victims' equipment, and removed their SD cards from their cameras. When they finally did get the cards and equipment back, it was clear that some of the more violent footage, such as two officers throwing one of the young men to the ground after putting him in a headlock, were tampered with. You can find that video at UhOhMonkeyTV's channel on YouTube.

What all of these stories seem to convey, at least to me, is that there are some (I know that NOT ALL police are like this) in the police force who undermine one of the most basic responsibilities of the justice system. That responsibility is that of the police to protect the citizens that they serve. The police are there to help us feel safe; or they should be.

As silly as it may sound to some, I actually feel very nervous whenever I'm out on the street and see a police officer. I honestly fear being the next innocent person that a supposed "Officer of the Law" will antagonize. Really, I do. And why is that?

Because in a great deal of these cases.....the offending officer is Caucasian/white. And the victim is not.

I'm not Caucasian. And I don't look Caucasian.

Again, I know it might sound ridiculous to some for me to say this. And I'm sure at least ONE person that reads this will roll their eyes and groan that I brought up race. But you can't deny that the trend is there.

As a side note, I've heard that Albuquerque has one of the HIGHEST rates of complaints about police in the country. In these eighteen days since the beginning of 2015, there have already been three police shootings.

Now, I want to know what you think. Do you feel that the police are stimulating fear in the people they're supposed to protect? Do you think that there is a continuing trend of what seems to be Caucasian white on non-white aggression between officers and citizens?

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Valthazar

Try this as an experiment:  The next time you cross paths with a police officer, try respectfully smiling and saying a sincere hello, and see what happens.  I bet 9 times out of 10, no matter what your skin color is, the police officer will smile and say hello back.

You don't need to fear the police if you are not doing anything questionable.  Even if you are being interrogated, simply follow their instructions.  If you feel you are a victim of an unwarranted arrest, simply comply with them, and don't resist being put into handcuffs.  There is plenty of time to consult legal advice and contest the arrest later on - rather than creating a scene, which is more often than not the start of these violent encounters.  You are right, some police behaviors go way overboard, and this is inexcusable.  But as a civilian, you can also do your part to prevent it from even getting that far by not back-talking or arguing with the police.  There's a legal process for dealing with that later on.

AndyZ

I notice you didn't bring up Dillon Taylor.

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/58304981-78/police-taylor-lake-salt.html.csp

http://www.inquisitr.com/1412236/dillon-taylor-police-shooting/

I can't say for certain why this story didn't make the news as immensely as others, but one of the arguments I've heard is that the victim wasn't white.

http://www.killedbypolice.net/kbp2014.html has a list of 1100 people killed by the police, but I have no idea how many were of what racial background or the circumstances.  I accept the possibility that it's worse for minorities, but 4 is a very small sample size.

Even if we got statistics, we know that statistics can be misleading.  It would be a nightmare to compare and contrast each and every case, but I know that the media doesn't make national news of every egregious case because I know of at least one that didn't make huge news.




One of the things I've heard about the Michael Brown case: if he was a very tall guy, he couldn't have been shot at the apex of his head if he was standing up with his hands raised.  Another story that I've heard is that Michael Brown charged the cop like a football player

If he truly did charge at the cop, it kinda makes sense that he'd get shot.  If he didn't charge at the cop, I don't know why he'd have his head down.




A few months ago, I got stopped by the police when I wasn't even in my vehicle because the vehicle had a flat tire.  They wanted to make sure that I wasn't driving it...while I wasn't even in it.  However, I haven't had nearly enough flat tires to know if that's common.




As far as outright fearing the police, I'm reminded of what Terry Goodkind mentioned as the Paradox of Power.  If someone has power, and they're ready, willing and able to use it, they rarely have to.

For example, if Chuck Norris can roundhouse kick someone into orbit and is impervious to bullets, no one is going to mess with Chuck Norris, so he'll very rarely have to roundhouse kick someone into orbit.  By contrast, Superman isn't going to use the full extent of his power to actually kill crooks, so they'll do everything they can to stop him because they have nothing to lose in the attempt.

People know the cops will shoot them if they charge the cops, which is how we have the concept of suicide-by-cop.  It's possible that they want to induce that much fear so that people will just meekly accept whatever the cops say.

If so, that's a problem, but it seems very odd that this would suddenly be happening all over the country unless it was somehow being orchestrated.  Do police all get their training from a single source?
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kylie

Quote from: Musician
Do you feel that the police are stimulating fear in the people they're supposed to protect? Do you think that there is a continuing trend of what seems to be Caucasian white on non-white aggression between officers and citizens?
Yes and yes.  This stuff isn't just popping on the news out of nowhere.  Set up an organization with a sanctioned monopoly on use of force in an area, watch it fill up to some extent with macho figures who believe instilled fear is the same thing as "respect we deserve," and set them to work protecting property and most visibly, the more expensive properties owned by an increasingly small percentage of the population.  Multiply that by the fact that wealth and property have also been systematically gained on the backs of largely non-White minorities.  (Though don't entirely forget the White working class and liberal protestors, either).  And also factor in that not only property but ideas of propriety, privilege and "civility" have been marketed through notions of essentially Whiteness v. the Barbarian Tribes out there. 

Quote from: AndyZ
If so, that's a problem, but it seems very odd that this would suddenly be happening all over the country unless it was somehow being orchestrated.  Do police all get their training from a single source?
I think it's more that it periodically "blows up" as it did in Ferguson.  The exploitation and differential treatment has been there for ages.  But we have a rather new environment now too, with a generation or two that are clearly suffering economically in the wake of the 2008 financial crisis and subsequent further abuses.  The bottom is still being crunched and the numbers of potentially sympathetic and themselves financially embattled, are continuing to increase dramatically.  We also had a serious move by Pentagon sales to militarize those police forces that were open to employing more hardware of a grade and style previously employed in places like Iraq.  In addition, I suspect there's a certain critical amount of saturation by social media and a continued movement toward more and more posting of grievances on increasingly high-speed and convenient platforms like Twitter and what have you.
     

Lustful Bride

#4
No, you should not fear the police. Despite what the media says, your average everyday police officer is not a power abusing maniac. many of them are just trying to do their job and keep people from rioting. And not every one who gets arrested is some poor little angel.

As the daughter of a police officer (in DC) I know. He has to deal with shit everyday and tries to give people the benefit of the doubt. (Though sometimes people are just a-holes and or looking for trouble.)

And pretty much like Valthazar said, if you get arrested, just behave yourself, don't throw a tantrum, don't threaten to sue, just wait for your lawyer and things will get sourted out. That's why lawyers exist. Ive been told countless times by my own father that if I ever get arrested to respond with "Yes sir, no sir" be polite and just do as the officer says, when he says it. Cause he is the official and theres a 60% chance I really am at fault, even if I don't want to admit it.

My dad dealt with all kinds of people and usually gives people a break, especially fi they don't cause him trouble or suddenly get an attitude or like they know the law better.

Inkidu

Generally I've been worried about the state of police since they've started referring to those they serve and protect as civilians. :\
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kylie

Quote from: Lustful Bride
And pretty much like Valthazar said, if you get arrested, just behave yourself, don't throw a tantrum, don't threaten to sue, just wait for your lawyer and things will get sourted out. That's why lawyers exist.
I don't get this part at all.  Don't threaten to sue over what?  If the police get some blank check to become more violent whenever people merely verbally threaten to sue, then it seems to follow they must have some idea that they're above the law.  All this evokes for me is, imagery where organizations like the National Lawyers Guild monitor everybody at protests (the police included) from a distance at least partly with an interest to see whether the supposed agents of the system are actually upholding the formal system, to begin with. 

Quote
My dad dealt with all kinds of people and usually gives people a break, especially fi they don't cause him trouble or suddenly get an attitude or like they know the law better.
Eh, when you have a pattern of protests being pushed along in riot gear for walking along a sidewalk, or any protest that stands still (even one single person) being banned anywhere in 100 feet of a convention hotel, then what does freedom of assembly mean?  It's not "attitude" if the police are militarizing and occupying half of downtown.  For instance.  Or it's a pretty justifiable one.  Maybe in other situations, he's correct but I hardly think the police are generally blameless if "doing their job" means tearing up the spirit of the Constitution.

     

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Valthazar

Quote from: kylie on January 18, 2015, 10:33:09 AMI don't get this part at all.  Don't threaten to sue over what?  If the police get some blank check to become more violent whenever people merely verbally threaten to sue, then it seems to follow they must have some idea that they're above the law.

If you're walking on the street, minding your business, and a police officer says you are under arrest, you shouldn't resist (even if you did nothing wrong).  Most people start throwing a tantrum, yelling that they are innocent, as if the police officer is going to somehow change his mind on the spot.

We are civilized countries with due process, and all false arrests can be overturned diplomatically down the road, if you legitimately weren't doing anything illegal.  I'm not justifying police brutality, because it does occur.  But as individuals, it's not something we need to fear, since each of us can make a choice on whether we want things to take a potentially violent turn or not.

Lustful Bride

Quote from: Valthazar on January 18, 2015, 12:00:19 PM
If you're walking on the street, minding your business, and a police officer says you are under arrest, you shouldn't resist (even if you did nothing wrong).  Most people start throwing a tantrum, yelling that they are innocent, as if the police officer is going to somehow change his mind on the spot.

Pretty much this. Hell even when someone is caught right in the act of a crime sometimes they will still scream they are innocent and just lose their shit. @_@

Inkidu

Quote from: Valthazar on January 18, 2015, 12:00:19 PM
If you're walking on the street, minding your business, and a police officer says you are under arrest, you shouldn't resist (even if you did nothing wrong).  Most people start throwing a tantrum, yelling that they are innocent, as if the police officer is going to somehow change his mind on the spot.

We are civilized countries with due process, and all false arrests can be overturned diplomatically down the road, if you legitimately weren't doing anything illegal.  I'm not justifying police brutality, because it does occur.  But as individuals, it's not something we need to fear, since each of us can make a choice on whether we want things to take a potentially violent turn or not.
Yeah, and when that police officer arrests you for not having identification on you, something that has happened in recent years to an alarming degree.

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Lustful Bride

Quote from: Inkidu on January 18, 2015, 01:58:07 PM
Yeah, and when that police officer arrests you for not having identification on you, something that has happened in recent years to an alarming degree.

Yeah that is bad il give you that one.

Valthazar

Quote from: Inkidu on January 18, 2015, 01:58:07 PMYeah, and when that police officer arrests you for not having identification on you, something that has happened in recent years to an alarming degree.

That's not something you should blame the police for.  Stop and identify statutes are part of the law in some states.

Crimsonbella

#13
I hold a great deal of respect for the police offers that go out and do their jobs correctly. However, sometimes what one deems justifiable force others may see as wholly unnecessary. Have their been abuses of power, especially recently? You bet your ass there have been. Does that mean that police around the country behave like that? Certainly not.

If you've never been placed in a situation where you feel like your life, or the lives of others, will be at risk, you don't truly know how you'll respond. Everyone says things like "Oh well if I were that guy/lady I'd have done this!" No...no you wouldn't. It's so easy to say one thing but when stress and panic are mixing with adrenaline, that fight or flight kicks in something fierce. Officers are supposed to be trained to deal with that, but no one is perfect and you truly cannot prepare for every little scenario.

Should Americans fear the police? No. But should the police be free of scrutiny? Nope. Any instance of perceived abuse needs to be immediately and appropriately looked into. It's sad that we live in that sort of world but in reality abuse of authority figures has, and most likely will, always be around.
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I am of South Asian and Sioux descent who's spent a majority of his life in England. Surprisingly I have had less trouble in United States compared to what I usually had to go through in wee Britain. There is the impromptu/random baggage search that occurs at the airports  here but 9 times out of 10 they are always extremely apologetic and explain to me the procees in detail and exactly why its taking place before it even begins.
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Deamonbane

It's a fact. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. People make the mistake for seeing police officers as anything other than human beings given the power of a uniform, badge and gun. It's a mistake to think that these human beings aren't going to be affected by it. Should you be afraid of the police? If you haven't done anything wrong, no. Should the police be given systems of checks and balances to make sure that the power that they wield isn't abused? Absolutely.
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Sheoldred

I've followed the news pertaining Michael Brown's death for some time. I thought the side that claimed it was the teen's fault had more credibility to it. In other words the police officer acted out of self-defense.

kylie

#17
Quote from: Valthazar
If you're walking on the street, minding your business, and a police officer says you are under arrest, you shouldn't resist (even if you did nothing wrong).  Most people start throwing a tantrum, yelling that they are innocent, as if the police officer is going to somehow change his mind on the spot.

We are civilized countries with due process, and all false arrests can be overturned diplomatically down the road, if you legitimately weren't doing anything illegal.  I'm not justifying police brutality, because it does occur.  But as individuals, it's not something we need to fear, since each of us can make a choice on whether we want things to take a potentially violent turn or not.
Not all that simple.  They demand you submit to a search where you know very well they have no reason to.  You request a badge number.  They refuse to show one.  They themselves defy any responsibility to the very system which is your only recourse, the only way you're "supposed" to get due process.  You're not allowed to get upset?  They're allowed to say any sort of insult or anger is an excuse to beat you down.

        You walk in a protest with a hundred people peacefully along a sidewalk.  Not filling the street, not charging some police line already there.  The police preemptively roll up in vans full of riot gear and deploy along the street and in the sidewalk and start thumping batons at your heels.  Oh, but it's your fault if anything turns confused or violent?

         Granted part of the problem is that the police are being given formal orders that don't follow the Constitution, with the full understanding that they will not be held responsible but instead months or years later some city population will have to pay in their tax dollars for what courts eventually find the police did illegally.  And we call that "due process."  But you think it's irrational for people to continue to protest, or to resist? 

        Or to get angry when the police appear to be killing people individually who are unarmed over and over.  And when the pop "defense," particularly of White defenders of White police is, "Oh well, it's those neighborhoods' own fault for having a high crime rate."  Surely nothing about history of slavery or divesting of urban Black communities of everything from fair rental and employment opportunites (redlining) to sewers and firefighters down to foot patrols that might actually know the neighborhood.

         I'm sure quite a few police officers are doing a fine job and would prefer to actually enforce the Constitution rather than what we have.  But expecting everyone to automatically defer to them in what we do have is just signing up for more of an authoritarian, oligarchic state.

     

Inkidu

#18
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/us/georgia-toddler-stun-grenade-no-indictment/

Always, always treat the police with a grain of salt. Tell me what that kid did, please. It's easy to lose the sight of right and wrong when it's an adult like in Ferguson or New York City, but tell me what that kid did.

They don't even have to pay to replace the door when they bust into the wrong house. So always be wary of the big blue wall.
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Dimir

Quote from: Inkidu on January 19, 2015, 06:17:44 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/07/us/georgia-toddler-stun-grenade-no-indictment/

Always, always treat the police with a grain of salt. Tell me what that kid did, please. It's easy to lose the sight of right and wrong when it's an adult like in Ferguson or New York City, but tell me what that kid did.

They don't even have to pay to replace the door when they bust into the wrong house. So always be wary of the big blue wall.

The toddler did nothing wrong but why on earth did the adults have a playpen blocking a door?
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la dame en noir

I respect authority because I have to as a normal citizen. I am very uncomfortable around cops and other people of power and a lot of it has to do with me being a black female. It might seem very irrational, but I've always had this fear.
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Drake Valentine

Depends on the people and neighborhood really.

Some people take advantage of their badge, some are there to actually help the citizens.

Living in the Country, I had no problem with officers. Most are friendly and will greet you in and out of stores; of course this may again depend on neighborhoods, but I never really encountered anyone that was an ass or a dick in person. I have still seen some that abuse their authority as far as running stop signs and turning on their lights to run a red light and continuing on normally.

Should Americans fear police? Depends on key factors, police are human and some will abuse their power. No one is perfect.

Should I fear police? Not really.

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consortium11

Yes and no.

Politically I lean towards libertarian (emphasis on "lean towards" rather than "am") and that leaves me with a base position of seeing the state as a necessary evil but something that should not be particularly trusted or given much power. And police are the basic expression of the State. The classic definition of what makes the State the State as opposed to it being a business, charitable organization, voluntary association or anything else is the fact that is had a monopoly on the legitimate use of force within a territory. And the police are the most obvious and open example of it exercising that monopoly. It's why it's always struck me as somewhat strange to hold the stereotypical left wing view of wanting more state (at least in certain areas) but less police... the two are intrinsically linked.

But I'm not a full blown libertarian, let alone an anarchist, sovereign citizen or the UK equivalent of the militia movement supporter.

To the dismay and horror of some of my more hardcore activist friends I'm also friends and acquaintances with a number of policemen and women. And, without fail, they're normal people. Some are good, decent people, some are closer to dicks but none fall into the stereotype of the power mad abusers who get off on the authority they get to wield. Some became police officers because they wanted to do good and saw it as the best way they could do it, others treat it as a job like any other.

On the other hand I also used to do pro bono work to sooth my soul when I was an evil corporate lawyer and that occasionally involved criminal work. And in doing so I've seen cases of police abuse. Not Rodney King style beatings or anything that's likely to hit the nightly news but little things that all add up. I've seen and heard the police exploit the lack of knowledge that subjects have about the law, I've seen people talk themselves into convictions and confessions under pressure, I've had to point out basic legal requirements and facts to police officers.

At the end of the day when it comes to the police we give normal people a large amount of power. And normal people aren't perfect. They screw up. Sometimes deliberately, sometimes maliciously, sometimes accidentally, sometimes with the best of intentions. But when a police officer screws up that can have incredibly serious consequences. A shop worker having a bad day and treating you badly will be an irritant. A police officer doing the same can ruin your life. It's not helped by the "brotherhood" mentality... I understand and appreciate why it occurs but the wish to sweep things under the rug to protect a fellow officer is something that should be opposed at every turn.

One can trot out the usual phrases; absolute power corrupts absolutely, whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster and if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you etc etc. I'm not sure one needs to. Instead simply think of any time you've made a mistake in your job, any time you've taken the easy route even if it hurts others because it was better for you, any time you've taken a short cut or gone against standard procedure because it made life simpler. Then consider what the consequences would be if you were a police officer and you'd done that.

Do I trust the police? I trust them to be normal people doing an abnormal job. I trust them to have the same prejudices, strengths and weakness that any normal person will. I trust them in the same way that I'd trust any stranger. I wouldn't expect them to be paragons of virtue or agents of despair. I trust there to be good police officers doing everything they can in frequently difficult circumstances, I trust there to be "normal" police officers who do their job and try to make it easier for themselves if they can and I trust there to be at least some who take advantage of their position.

Silk

There should be a certain measure of fear of the police, as it ties in with their role, but it's not so much the fear of the police itself, but the fear of the police 's response. A enforcement force than runs on wagging your finger and going "tut" is not going to enforce anything, you cannot rely on everyone's sense of good will to just follow the law, that overarching sense of punishment for ones action (Kind of similar to how god works actually). But nobody is going to respect a dog with no teeth or claws. Because there is nothing in there to fear to instil that sense of respect. It's unfortunate but that's just how the human mind works, if there isn't a threat of consequence, there isn't much reason not to do it.

Lustful Bride

#24
Quote from: Silk on January 22, 2015, 06:01:17 AM
There should be a certain measure of fear of the police, as it ties in with their role, but it's not so much the fear of the police itself, but the fear of the police 's response. A enforcement force than runs on wagging your finger and going "tut" is not going to enforce anything, you cannot rely on everyone's sense of good will to just follow the law, that overarching sense of punishment for ones action (Kind of similar to how god works actually). But nobody is going to respect a dog with no teeth or claws. Because there is nothing in there to fear to instil that sense of respect. It's unfortunate but that's just how the human mind works, if there isn't a threat of consequence, there isn't much reason not to do it.

You instantly reminded me of this clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c13zB59lShE

Even though technically in the movie id classify these guys as the  bad guys since they rip organs out of people and well yeah.  :P

Dimir

Should the general public fear the police? Should we fear when authorities investigate homicides, sexual assaults, robberies, burglaries, assaults, etc. When responding to a crime, they conduct an investigation to determine who the guilty offender(s) are. If that leads to a conviction of the actual perpetrators, then the streets are safer for the general public. So if you're a crime victim, then you should be relivied that the police are investigating your case.

Where it seems like the issues revolve around are the confrontations authorities have with those they accuse of having committed an offense, or are in the process of investigating. Law Enforcement have the right to be concerned about who they're confronting, as criminals have been known to shoot officers who confront them. I don't deny that there are those in law enforcement who abuse their power for their benefit, and they should be held accountable for their misconduct. However that's up to the result of the judicial system to determine if they were in the wrong. What the national media should be doing is that along with stories on alleged acts of police brutality, do stories on officers doing good for the general public, otherwise that's completely biased against law enforcement.
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Avis habilis

Doing their job is their job. They don't get a cookie for it.

Now what I'm worried about is the apparently increasing trend for police departments to get substantial parts of the budget from literal robbery.


Beguile's Mistress

Admittedly there are people in positions of authority who feel the rules don't apply to them and are a danger to the public and fellow law enforcement personnel.  While the number of law breakers far outweighs the number of problematic police officers I don't thing the general population needs to be afraid of the police.  Don't commit crimes and when stopped by police for any reason remain calm and cooperate with them.  Do as you are asked and if you have a complaint don't become confrontational.  Above all don't make any threatening moves toward the police.

Most people behave this way in any case and have no problems.  The police don't frighten me.

Valthazar

The next anti-police incident is already brewing - this time featuring a Hispanic, lesbian victim - already ripe for national media involvement.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/jessi-hernandez-case-residents-want-charges-for-denver-officers-who-killed-teen/

17-year-old Jessica Hernandez was behind the wheel of a stolen car.  The teenager struck an officer with the car, fracturing his leg and prompting the officers to open fire, ultimately killing Hernandez.  But new eyewitness accounts contend the officers fired first — and that the car struck the officer after the wounded driver lost control of the vehicle.

All this controversy and death could have been avoided if Jessica Hernandez simply decided not to steal a car.  But that doesn't seem to be the message people are taking away from these incidents.  This incident has prompted the movement: "Girls Lives Matter" - with no efforts to deter crime. 

I would be more fearful of Jessica Hernandez behind the wheel of a stolen car, than the police officer who shot her. 

Kythia

So.....hopefully this is an interesting...thing.  I've read Valthazair's comment above but have quite deliberately not read the link he provided and so, not being in the US, the sole I know of this is what he posted above. 

I'm also a bit drunk.

Judging purely and 100% from his post above mine:

Obviously ids shouldn't steal cars, obviously police shouldn't kill people.  She shouldn't have stolen the cat, he shouldn't have shot her for it.  So far so uninsightful, but I think the lack of insight may be relevant.  At the moment, in essence, this seems like just a general "shit thing".  A kid died because they were involved in some sort of "stupid thing teenagers do" and I find it hard to draw any lessons about race/class/gender/etc. from it.  My gut feeling - and the reason I do this at all - is that the cop acted wrongly in opening fire but I stress I HAVE NOT READ THE FULL DETAILS YET.  I've just read Val's precis, and I note my response deliberately to record viewpoints on the cops as a gut instinct as opposed to as a more in depth read.  I'll then read up and return.

For those who care, I'm straight, cis gendered female white and abled bodied from a lower class family with substantial involvement with the police.
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AndyZ

Valthazar, I'm not sure I agree with your lesson.  While I agree with the importance of not committing crimes in the first place, I'd place more of an emphasis on not attacking the police officers.

In the case you mentioned, she tagged a cop with a car.  In Michael Brown's case, forensic evidence points to his charging the cop like a football player.  With Eric Garner, though, he didn't actually attack the police officer.  That's the one, in my mind, that comes off as tragic and accidental, where the cop was just trying to get the guy down and things went wrong very quickly.

While not committing crimes is a valid and worthwhile undertaking, I feel much more confident in stressing, "Don't attack the cops or you'll get killed."

Part of the reason I'd encourage this is because of the inherent stressful situation of dealing with the police after you've been caught.  While deciding whether or not to commit a crime, people are in a much more rational state of mind than when they're actually dealing with the cops, and those heavily stressful split-second situations are where the ingrained lessons become necessary.

We already give police officers training for such things, and I wouldn't consider it necessary for citizens to get that kind of stuff, I feel better stressing that part of the rule.
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Valthazar

Quote from: AndyZ on February 01, 2015, 04:25:29 PMValthazar, I'm not sure I agree with your lesson.  While I agree with the importance of not committing crimes in the first place, I'd place more of an emphasis on not attacking the police officers.

It's more than simply not attacking police officers.  It also comes down to respecting authority, and not disagreeing with their commands in the heat of the moment. 

This is perhaps a classic example of an encounter that leads to unwarranted "fear" of the police and violence:

A man is drinking an Arizona Iced Tea (non-alcoholic) outside a liquor store.  Another man approaches him stating to be a police officer and asks to see the bottle.  The man refuses to show the bottle to the "so-called" police officer and asks for ID.  The police officer shows his badge at 2:13 in the video below.  The police officer then asks the man to put his hands up against the car.  The man refuses, and does not cooperate with the police officer's commands - and is arrested for his lack of cooperation.

Did the man deserve to be arrested?  Absolutely not.  He was not arrested for drinking an iced tea (as the media may like to portray this situation), but rather, he was arrested for failing to respect the authority of a police officer.

All he had to do was show the police officer the bottle of ice tea to verify that it was non-alcoholic, and he would be on his way as a free man.

Here's the full video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqhO8CGo-WQ

FaeBorne

#33
http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.VNEn2VEdFIc

My link is in relation to the racial issue. It is not a question anymore about race. It is in fact more in line with what is quoted below by Deamonbane.

Quote from: Deamonbane on January 18, 2015, 06:00:50 PM
It's a fact. Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. People make the mistake for seeing police officers as anything other than human beings given the power of a uniform, badge and gun. It's a mistake to think that these human beings aren't going to be affected by it. Should you be afraid of the police? If you haven't done anything wrong, no. Should the police be given systems of checks and balances to make sure that the power that they wield isn't abused? Absolutely.

In that same tune, not all police are dirty, just as not all citizens are criminals.  Our society is complex and made up of so many different perspectives and situations that have been going since the dawn of civilization. There will always be evil in the world, there will always be good...we see and hear more about it based on our technological advances in information sharing. We are immersed in getting blow-by-blow coverage of incidents that would not have come to our attention otherwise. I am not saying we ignore it, I am merely stating that these incidents before sensationalism were happening since the dawn of mankind.

Do I trust all law enforcement agents... No.  Why is that?  Personal experience that not all cops are law abiding.  Will I call the cops when a crime happens? Absolutely.  Because even if there are some that are not upholding their duty fully, they are still in place within our society to make sure that not every crime goes unsolved or unpunished.

Our world is filled with things that are not always pleasing and good. But to live in fear, is to allow a part of yourself to be shadowed by a nagging sense of doubt, is unhealthy. 

In short, no, we should not fear the police....though we should not live blindly either.

Zakharra

Quote from: Valthazar on February 03, 2015, 01:31:26 PM
It's more than simply not attacking police officers.  It also comes down to respecting authority, and not disagreeing with their commands in the heat of the moment. 

This is perhaps a classic example of an encounter that leads to unwarranted "fear" of the police and violence:

A man is drinking an Arizona Iced Tea (non-alcoholic) outside a liquor store.  Another man approaches him stating to be a police officer and asks to see the bottle.  The man refuses to show the bottle to the "so-called" police officer and asks for ID.  The police officer shows his badge at 2:13 in the video below.  The police officer then asks the man to put his hands up against the car.  The man refuses, and does not cooperate with the police officer's commands - and is arrested for his lack of cooperation.

Did the man deserve to be arrested?  Absolutely not.  He was not arrested for drinking an iced tea (as the media may like to portray this situation), but rather, he was arrested for failing to respect the authority of a police officer.

All he had to do was show the police officer the bottle of ice tea to verify that it was non-alcoholic, and he would be on his way as a free man.

Here's the full video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqhO8CGo-WQ

I watched it and I would submit that before the policeman showed his badge, he failed to identify himself and he was in civilian clothing. Yet he expected the man with the iced tea to do what he said. The other man was under no obligation to show the policeman the drink or his ID. There was no reason to do that just because a person you don't know walks up and asks to see your ID. Then when he demanded the men leave, he still hadn't identified himself. As far as any one could see, the man was just an ordinary white man demanding the black men leave for no reason. This would look strange to anyone, especially when the as of yet unidentified police officer wasn't a store employee. After the badge was flashed and identified, then yes, but before that the police officer had no authority to be demanding what he was.

In this instance, the police officer is in the wrong. Especially for not showing the badge until just before arresting the man.

DarknessBorne

How about the police just leave us alone if we're not bothering anyone or otherwise creating a nuisance that requires intervention?
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AndyZ

Quote from: DarknessBorne on February 03, 2015, 09:16:59 PM
How about the police just leave us alone if we're not bothering anyone or otherwise creating a nuisance that requires intervention?

While I have little issue with this idea, it's far less common than people like.

For example, Eric Garner was selling untaxed cigarettes if memory serves.  If you want to use this idea to prevent this kind of issue, you'd have to stop prosecuting people for selling untaxed cigarettes.

Our system is inundated with rules and regulations that can only be enforced by police officers.
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#37
Quote from: Valthazar on February 03, 2015, 01:31:26 PM
It's more than simply not attacking police officers.  It also comes down to respecting authority, and not disagreeing with their commands in the heat of the moment. 
I thought I understood what this meant more or less...  Until I got to this part:

Quote
... The man refuses, and does not cooperate with the police officer's commands - and is arrested for his lack of cooperation [if that did say cooperation, before my cell browser  trashed it]...
Did the man deserve to be arrested?  Absolutely not.  He was not arrested for drinking an iced tea (as the media may like to portray this situation), but rather, he was arrested for failing to respect the authority of a police officer.

     The part I find striking is where you play with that putatively rhetorical question, did he "deserve" to get arrested. You say no he didn't but that creates a big unspoken passage in your argument. I say this because, according to your own position above, 'respecting the authority's of police is the thing of penultimate importance whenever you might wonder wtf does this officer want here, or if you prefer 'whenever things might get heated.' It appears very clear to me that if you follow that line, then you should logically say duh, he defied an officer about who cares what so of course he deserved to get arrested. Which is closer to what you say at the end but you don't spell it out: Basically that it isn't enough to be innocent in the first place cause one will get arrested merely if the cops feel they are not inspiring "due respect."

But in too many situations, as has been said many times, the cops' idea of due respect involves profiling and detainment or pretty basically, instilling fear. And when they themselves go too far or stand on the wrong line, it is the same principle often coming out to play in ahem much more heated situations.

I think maybe for all your fuss about the headline: Couldn't the media just be a little reasonably shocked that your "due respect" requires searching and cuffing over standing around drinking tea? But if that's the state you wanna live in, by all means carry your papers when you take out the trash...
     

Valthazar

Quote from: kylie on February 04, 2015, 08:50:27 AMThe part I find striking is where you play with that putatively rhetorical question, did he "deserve" to get arrested. You say no he didn't but that creates a big unspoken passage in your argument.

I was rhetorically asking, "Did he deserve to be arrested for drinking iced tea?" (as the title of the video suggests).  The answer is no.  The arrest in the video was not due to him drinking iced tea, but rather due to not listening to the police officer's commands, even after showing his badge.

If the man feels he was wrongly interrogated and/or wrongly arrested, the solution isn't to start a shouting match on the scene.  Rather, he should listen to the police officer's commands, and file a complaint later on.

Zakharra

 Ah. Those rhetorical questions can get you if you don;t realize they are being asked. :)   As to the video, I don't think the man should have been arrested even for not obeying the police officer's orders. That police officer's biggest failure was not showing his badge right away. Until it was shown, the man had no obligation to obey the officer's orders at all if he didn't know the man was a police officer. From what I saw it was the officer that was being the belligerent (and stupid) one, the man with the iced tea was being relatively polite. I probably would have done the same thing if someone I didn't know walked up to me and asked, then demanded I show him my drink, then demanded I leave the parking lot for trespassing.

That is where I think the police officer messed up. Until he showed the badge, the man didn't have to obey the officer because until that badge was shown, he had no authority to order anyone around there. I think he arrested the man for the wrong reasons and shouldn't have arrested the man at all.

Inkidu

My apprehension is not with individual police officers, I fear the organization at large. The Big Blue Wall is more interested in protect its rice bowl and its own rather than the mandated protect and serve. This creates an us-versus-them mentality, which is not good for a civilian police force.
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TaintedAndDelish

I think we need make one clarification - it really depends on what portion of the population you focus on. I think viewing "the public" or "Americans" as a whole is a bit of a mistake. Some areas have more crime than others and the types of crime will generally vary greatly by location. ( ie. white collar/financial, traffic violations, fraud, domestic abuse, robbery, racism, gangs, rape, drugs).



AndyZ

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consortium11

Quote from: AndyZ on February 18, 2015, 09:07:46 AM
http://registerguard.com/rg/news/local/32781780-75/sheriff-man-who-falsely-claimed-detective-assaulted-him-caught-on-video-punching-himself.html.csp#

Sadly, it's people like this who mess things up for the people who actually do get messed up by the police.

I think (like most things in life) it works both ways. Just as we shouldn't dismiss all accounts of police abuse and brutality on the basis of individuals like this we shouldn't also tarnish all police officers with the actions of a few or accept all claims uncritically. There are some horrific examples of police misconduct out there. There are also ridiculous examples of people trying to claim mistreatment by the police which were nothing of the sort. Far more awkwardly are the examples that fall somewhere in the middle.

Caehlim

Looking back through history can show us how developing the police into the form they are today has done a lot for society and created a safer environment within cities and urban cultures. There are systems in place, a variety of checks and balances to prevent the corruption that can naturally develop in any office that provides power. They do a lot of good, and I believe that many people are drawn into that form of service out of a desire to do good and make the world a safer place.

However I think it's naive at best to assume that the corruption which has been well documented in past decades is over and that our system is finally perfect. While it's great that the police make things better for most of the people most of the time, it's hard not to worry when you see that the exceptions to that are statistically biased by race. This doesn't mean that any individual officer or case, regardless of those involved, exhibits racism but as a broad trend we know with quite measurable accuracy that there is a problem there.

On a personal level, you should treat police the same way you should treat anything. Assess the personal risks to yourself, evaluate their likelihood and take whatever reasonable precautions will reduce your risks without causing more problems than they solve. In most areas, as best we can tell from the numbers available, running into major problems with the police isn't a common risk. Under most circumstances it shouldn't be your most pressing concern and you'd probably get a greater safety benefit from something like being careful with your automotive maintenance. So unless you expect to have a lot of risk factors in dealing with police it's best to just take small precautions, such as keeping good records of any dealings you have with the police or crime, being aware of your basic legal rights and having a rough understanding of the way police work both in theory and in practice. Doing some of the things people have suggested, such as addressing the police with respect regardless of situation are likely to reduce risk. Taking a moral stand that this is an inappropriate demand is potentially quite valid, just be aware that unfortunately you may experience a personal cost for taking this moral stance. This is unfair but something you should be aware of to make an informed choice.

On a societal level we need to continue addressing problems within the police force and identifying ways in which policing can be improved. We need to look at things like the hiring practices, what forms of oversight occur, the growing militarization of US police forces, disparities in treatment of minorities and the way the legal code and sentencing applies to society. There are no really simple solutions in a complex developed society but hopefully in time we can find ways of improving all these things.
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AndyZ

What I meant to say was that the people who attempt to fake police brutality actively hurt the cause, the same way that falsely calling rape, making up a hate crime or any of the other cases of "crying wolf" do.  We should not dismiss all such cases based upon a few, but such incidents do a fantastic job of causing a backlash in public opinion.
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LostInTheMist

For the record, I'm caucasian, and I look caucasian, and I'm not going to TOUCH the racial issue with a ten foot pole.

I think that in general, there's no need to fear the police, provided you are not doing anything illegal or questionably legal. But is there anyone out there though who doesn't drive more carefully and make sure to obey the speed limit more exactly when there's a police car right behind them? Is there anyone who doesn't make sure to cross the street only with the light when there's a police officer on the corner? Is that out of fear of the police officer, or fear of being arrested, or both?

There's something of a trade off here.... When you take a group of people and give them power, a certain number of them are bound to misuse or actively abuse that power. When this misuse of power is apparent in a group intended to enforce the law, it creates a rational fear, even to the law-abiding citizens. You can't take the power to arrest people and bring in offenders away from the police, but you can't give it to them without creating a certain amount of corruption.

I think a little bit of fear of the police is a healthy thing. I would just honestly prefer that the fear were completely unfounded.
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kylie

Quote from: Dice on March 03, 2015, 08:26:21 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/feb/24/chicago-police-detain-americans-black-site

And that happened.

     It really made me wonder where they came up with the idea for the "cage" holding area in the TV drama Chicago P.D.

::)
     

Thumper

I see it as a pretty simple situation. Government needs to be challenged on a regular basis. Just as cops say "if you're doing nothing illegal you have nothing to worry about" If a cop is doing nothing wrong he has nothing to worry about.

People say that even if a cop is wrong you need to comply and be polite. I'm sorry but no. If a cop is overstepping his bounds then he needs to be challenged. This does not mean that you scream and yell and act the fool. It does mean that you need to be firm but respectful. Doing as the cop apologists suggest is one of the things that has gotten us where we are today. As has the mentality of "I've got to go home to my family at the end of the day". That mentality has established that a cops life is worth more than the citizen he is sworn to protect. Couple this with a sore lack in training, and mix it in with a primary duty of generating revenue for the state and you create a tinderbox. Then mix in the fact that there is little to no civilian oversight into claims of abuse and corruption and you've tossed a match at the problem.

So, are all cops bad? That depends on how you define a bad cop.  Me? A bad cop is one that will stand by and watch other cops violate the rights of others. See. The thin blue line is supposed to be the cops standing between criminals and the general public. But it has turned into a wide blue line between cops that need to be punished and the general public.

I have kind of a unique perspective on the situation. During my time in the Corps I was not only an operator, but have been an instructor at the special operations training group for both less lethal and lethal combat. There we educate operators in what is justified and what is not over a wide variety of situations. We teach what strikes are considered lethal and what are not. The vast majority of departments in the us have no such training. We go mover escalation of force and the proper way to conduct yourself. By and large cops go instantly from an interaction to the highest level of force. And then it is ruled justified by three little words. "I felt threatened"

For a civilian to use lethal force not only do they need to feel that they are in immediate danger of death or serious bodily injury. But a reasonable person looking back at the case must feel that way. There are many instances where investigators have said in sworn statements that had they been in the same situation they would not have been in fear for their lives. But the use of force was ruled justified because then responding officer was scared.

So we have allowed departments to come up with a lower standard for the use of force than both those expected from our military in combat situations as well as our citizens on the street. How can we have a trusted police force when they are held to a lower standard than civilians with little to no training? Law enforcement officers are supposed to be professionals. A professional not only holds himself to a higher standard. But he holds other professionals to that standard. And if someone is not meeting that standard he takes it upon himself to either fix that professional. Or see that they are removed from the department.

Unfortunately the few officers that attempt to do so are shunned, ridiculed and often times dismissed.

Yes there are good cops out there. Unfortunately they don't last on the force for long.