Dungeons and Dragons Request :)

[Kate]

I am new here and I just missed out on joining a few of the fantasy system games that a few were keen on being a story teller or games master/mistress for ( a moderator or storyteller is a must) Ideally dungeons and dragons (as I just read up on the rule book!)
but I'm open for other ideas.

If any have ideas and the energy to host a new game, a few girl players may be interested, likely guys also.

If role playing in an open NC / Exotic world is the theme and the plot isn't very specific, the idea of exploring a new world with others here would be something I would adore to get my teeth in. (where we all meet up reasonably quickly or have two or three groups of two or three who are all more or less allies who branch for a while then meet up again, but basically share similar high level objectives is what I had in mind)

I think group threads are more fun than solos personally, to me there is something incredibly romantic about medieval fantasy periods and an established system like dungeons and dragons makes it feel more believable than free form in a way.

I would like to get involved in many group threads so a few replys to this would be heavenly !

[WyzardWhately]

I'm interested in this, too.  It's a shame you didn't manage to make it into the Dungeons of Doom game.  I'm precisely in agreement with you on the romantic aspects of a fantasy world, and a moderated system-based collaborative game is also my ideal environment.

[Caliban]

I'm going to re-start my previous games (D&D 3.5, old World of Darkness, and GURPS Steampunk), and you're welcome to join any of them.
I see you're also into Pathfinder.  I'm active in the local Pathfinder Society here in Washington DC and I'd like to start a Pathfinder Society game online if people are interested.

[Idej]

If you're interested in a little bit of gothic horror, I have a Ravenloft DnD game going on if you're interested.

All materials are allowed to be used.

Anyone is welcome, just give me a PM if you are interested. :)

[shadowspale]

I am interested but it has been ages since I have played a system game.

[Muse]

Could I intrest any of you fine people in a game of the new edition of earth dawn?  (The third edition?)  i would prefer to run a plot that has non-con ellements but plenty of good old fashoined roll playing and high adventure as well. 

i'm also not adverse to welcoming some new people into my (rather intesivly non-con) D#&D 3.5 original setting game Pheonix Keys. 

[shadowspale]

I would be interested but I am not familiar with that one. Can you direct me some where I can learn about it?

[Muse]

http://www.redbrick-limited.com/cms/index.php?categoryid=18

Here is the sight from the back of he book.  i don't know if it's worth much as a primer.  If I'm still awake once i've finished a few more posts i'll look for more links, or just type some thing up. 

[Doomsday]

I too would very much like to find a consistently good DnD campaign here on E.

[Kate]

Idej : what i don't like about Gothic horror / vampire or werewolf focused games is it is mainly being on the back foot with same themed villains - and not really a world to explore - nor does it give rooms to try your own ideas - (it just sounds like Im in some b splatter flick with doomed fates from word go)
- if im wrong tell me !

Caliban : World of Darkness / pathfinder sounds cool
Muse : Phenois keys - i will have a look for it / earthdawn ? sounds cool.

if we can can have a status purchase of 40 points (or not must below it - mainly just because it took me ages to write the character up i have now - and thats how she was made - that could be cool the main thing i would like to see happen
is i dont want fights to go for ever where every "round is a pbp thing"

if I just say my intentions like "ok i will try and use this to fend of this then try and manage so and so by ra ra ra" and everyone says their general approach - the GM or storyteller next posts when the find ends or even

"this went ok - but then this happened ... leaving your only option to run - somehow you got separated from the group and here you are alone - you lost this and that in the hase of fighting and your loosing a lot of blood and in a world of pain  - (your hit points are now X - and you have exhausted all your spells save ... Y and Z - oh and your healing potions are spent )"

... and if another "round of fighting happens - it is a different scene or different group that stumbles upon me - if the fights can resolve quickly like this so we continue role playing ( even if they are to the detriment of players objectives - it keeps it fun and interesting - and exciting ) - so fight ? - you have one post (usually) before the battle ends one way or another. - and epic fight ? everyone has two posts (tops) - fights can be violent and frequent - but please no one in particular drawn out :)

My character is level 4 currently starting stat point purchase of 40 points
(I would adore to start at level 5 ! - thats when characters are practical but still high dependant on other allies - fast xp accumulation) my starting cash was 6000 gp - I think its cool to start with a lot - but easy come easy go - dont mind stuff breaking / being lost / stolen etc / dont mind being outclassed in situations a lot - and only getting away with the skin of my teeth with them keeping a lot of my goodies - lost - with perhaps one friend i can just hear - but he or she is trapped or something - love it :)

Any GMS like this idea - great - just tell us a level, starting points, starting cash ... and we are away ! :)

Places were we can occasionally travel to a big city so we can buy back all the stuff we lost lol - and do travel a lot - have to sleep a bit - role playing camp fire scenes etc - see new scenes (not just a dungeon that is massive and doesnt end - or just one scene like desert for ever ) ... variation - fast plot movement - Im addicted ! :)

Im happy to help others new to it to make character sheets - hopefully others that know it better than i do offer to make character sheets up for those new to this system - and they can choose one from a set - and phps ask another to modifying it saying "hmm i want more of this dont really care for that" ... and likely one of us will for them - (mainly useful for purchasing stuff that is practical for them - those not fluent in the rules would likely be burnt there- but as long as treasure happens - the storyteller can soon balance matters to make things fair )

[Kate]

sex happens - but more many short scenes scattered throughout, not just we adventure for awhile - then everything resolves into it being a long scene for 1000 posts - the main objective are other things, but sex happens on the side :)

if characters want to have a long many post sex scene with each other - they can branch the thread and start their own between them - then link it back into the story when they are done - so they can roleplay continuing with the main plot while expanding a previous sex scene as much as they like between themselves personally ( this would aid character bonding a lot )

thoughts ?

[Kate]

oh also i dont mind if the story teller "meta-games" god modes my own character during fight scenes - just to keep the story moving - fights should be fast and furious - and storyteller making assumptions on what my character would do is likely to be necessary to keep it so - i would prefer that and the story teller focusing on describing scenes in vivid detail - and almost rushing through fights / actions scenes - to keep it dramatic and fast paced - if they draw out everyone becomes apathetic... well my view anyway

[Muse]

https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?board=392.0

This is one of my three homes on E, Kate, the one where I keep Pheonix Keys. 

Most of my games are more like what you describe further up, though I tend to draw mights out a bit longer than you seem to speak of.  Pheonix Keys, by contrast, is a non con fantasy romp with dice.  ^_^ 

By the way, you've inspired me to try and tweak my profile a bit.  i wonder if i'll pull it off this time. 

[Kate]

Earth dawn seems a different system - I would prefer if it was dungeons and dragons for two reasons

a) Its more popular and those used to freeform which are trying their hand at this would benefit most from dungeons and dragons if they only had the effort to learn one system.

b) i wanna play my character i made ! :)

[Kate]

Caliban and Muse - would you consider mutually storytelling ?

you could both have exotic characters (perhaps a strange familiar to another)
that you role play when the other is the story teller ?

pathfinder /world of darkness so far seems the best mainly as there are online references - for the rules etc.

[shadowspale]

I read all this and went uh? Man have I been out of the loop! The parts I did understand (at least I think I did ) has me agreeing with Kate. I don't like endless dungeons or fights that drag on forever. I like shorter campaigns that give you a chance between them to restock supplies, make repairs or whatever. Its not fair to those without a partner to be made to wait through sex scenes so yeah: I agree they should branch off.

Starting off at level one sucks; it takes forever to get to the really good things so starting out a bit higher is very appealing to me. I am still interested despite feeling I would be getting in over my head.

[Kate]

i have an idea - all those keen make up a character - those that need references just ask -

i may make mine up at 3.0 or 3.5 (whatever i can find online - if i find a good sight i will link others here )

and make a character at level 5


(See the next post:)

if those that want to story tell want to play with a different version - i dont mind - changing an existing character to fit slightly different rules takes less time than making them up from scratch - also it would be a good way to see who is keen - also the characters that we make may give others a good idea what plots would be moist enjoyable with them - so it would help everyone anyway :)

[Kate]

see post 22 (sorry all !)

hey ! there is a free online application which can build 4th edition characters for us !
I have downloaded it and playing with it now :)

check it out - still may need the storyteller to have the actual core rule books though - but the players may not need to own them - dont need to know anything about the rules before this application just gives you the right options .. :) sweet !

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/insider/characterbuilder

[WyzardWhately]

Wow, this thread blew up.  I also think it'd be neat to start out above first level.  That said, what would be really cool, to me, would be to blow the doors off and start around tenth or higher.  It seems like nobody ever does that, and I'd get a kick out of it.

Earthdawn is a game that fascinates me and I'd like to play it someday - but it's also fairly complicated, in comparison to most FRPGs, and I'm not sure I'd want to try chargen or teaching it to a new player online.

Further:  I'm pretty sure D&D's online character generator only lets  you level characters up to three or so, if you have the free version.  I may be wrong.

[Kate]

see post 22 (sorry all !)

your right - it only allows level 3 for the free version.

If any are dungeons and dragon lovers i would ADORE them to buy the full version ... and level up our characters (you would be very popular) that generator i am playing with now - manages all rules for me - don't really have to know what i am doing - i adore it.

lets use it to make level 3 characters - hopefully someone who knows dungeons and dragons 4th edition could join this threads.

Please nothing more complicated than dungeons and dragons - either that or something simpler remember many are free-form fans new to system gaming i was expecting them to effectively just role play as if they are free-forming - but if they want to use an ability or cast a spell they can look at their character sheet to do so - how effective it is - all game mechanics - the storytellers business (so players dont really have to know)... if any one has any player concept many with the generator that know anything about dungeons and dragons would make one for you - so no need to care about rules - for players :)

this primarily is free-form role players trying their hand at a system game - (and i want them to have a taste of then treasures feel more real, their character feels more real ..)

- the storyteller doesnt really have to know 4th edition either (I dont - just dungeons and dragons at some level ) but mainly can describe scenes well and tell a good story :) - I would be more than happy with that :)

[Kate]

btw those that are using that generator - level up to level 3 before buying anything :)
(pretend you have 6000 gp - background choice  general / wealthy)

- lol see next post ! - sorry all !

[WyzardWhately]

4E is very, very much about tactical decisionmaking.  I'm not sure that someone trying to roleplay their way through combat without understanding what their choices mean is a great idea.  It's just not going to work in the long run. 

If we're going to have players who aren't system-monkeys, I think that sticking to the earlier editions is most advisable.

Don't get me wrong, the character generator is fun to play with, and the game rules don't have a lot of complicated interactions the way high-level 3.x did, but trying to play it "blind" is asking for trouble.

[Kate]

Ok - well then I will go with whatever the keenest storyteller wants ! :)

- more than happy - for me its less about the system more about friends
but the system is just there for treasure and stuff to make sense mainly :)

perhaps help out with what sort of villians we may be facing :)

[shadowspale]

I remember enough of D&D to muddle through with a few whoas, back ups, pokes and prods. Granted that was table top so I am none to sure how to play in a forum. Kate might have to hold my hand :P

[WyzardWhately]

I'm also happy to help any of my colleagues through the rough spots, as needed. 

[Kate]

i have a few ideas but i am new to this forum and want to join one as a player before hosting myself - if any are keen on gming a dungeosn and dragons one please put your hand up :)

Im so fired ! :) - and btw pale happy to help you out - happy to make a character as something you can change however u feel fit

[shadowspale]

Downloaded that character creator. Will get to it asap

[Kate]

dont shadow ! abort - we are not running with 4 - we had someone who knows the rules saying that version 4 is for hard core stragetists ! :) - the earlier versions are "lighter" for us mainly free-formers :)

[shadowspale]

Good thing I hadn't opened it yet, uh? To bad, I was wanting to poke it an see what it could do

[WyzardWhately]

Well, go ahead.  It's fun to play with.  If you end up liking it, it might be something to discuss.

[shadowspale]

Yay! I gets to poke it! :P

[WyzardWhately]

It's really cool to me how you waited for permission.   ;D

[Kate]

><     <- domme side of me getting shitty for someone not choosing to assume the mantle of the storyteller yet ! :)

[shadowspale]

haha I am tired but wanting to keep this thread and my own at top so peoples can find them. I hadn't even realized I did so.

[shadowspale]

I would but its been so long since I played

[WyzardWhately]

><     <- domme side of me getting shitty for someone not choosing to assume the mantle of the storyteller yet ! :)

I honestly just don't have the time to properly GM a game.  I'm too detail-oriented to half-ass it, and law school precludes me from devoting that kind of time to the task.

[Muse]

And i've got so many games going, with my comitment o starting an Earthdawn to boot, the last thing i have time for right now is another D&D.  (Which, by the way, I'm prettty bloody burned out on.  I keep winding up running it beause i have good people with good story ideas, but i cringe every time.) 

[WyzardWhately]

And i've got so many games going, with my comitment o starting an Earthdawn to boot, the last thing i have time for right now is another D&D.  (Which, by the way, I'm prettty bloody burned out on.  I keep winding up running it beause i have good people with good story ideas, but i cringe every time.)

I think my problem is that 3.x and earlier D&D models, more perfectly than almost any other RPG I've ever seen, my concept of what playing an extremely powerful wizard should be like.  And high-end spellcasters are pretty much my favorite thing to play.  What I have never untangled in my head is the direction causation runs - do I like D&D because it fits my natural inclinations, or do I have these inclinations because of my formative experiences playing D&D?  It's a conundrum.

In any case, despite how I feel about trying to teach it to new players over the internet, Earthdawn is a damned fine game and I hope you have great luck running it.  I think it deserved to be more popular than it ever was.

[Muse]

Well spoken, Wiz. 

Kudos to Greenwood for showing us an Elminster who cast spells our charecters could cast and progressed through levels our charecters could progress through while still spinning a damn fine yarn. 

[Doomsday]

Do we have a GM? I wouldn't be adverse to a D&D3.5e game.

[Kate]

not yet :)

[Muse]

Alas, no, i'd enjoy a chance to play with you fine folks. 

Let me see who I can find... 

[WyzardWhately]

We'll just have to hope that the already long and somewhat wandering thread, plus Kate's domme tendencies showing from the player side of the screen ( ;) ) won't scare off any potential DungeonMonkeys.

[Cythieus]

Has this started already? I can't GM as I have to GM my Flagship game and there's 16 characters in it, but I would love to have a game like this to play in. I'm great with a few classes. You're using 3.5 or Pathfinder?

[shadowspale]

I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong but I think everyone has pretty much moved to this thread https://elliquiy.com/forums/index.php?topic=47568.0.

The game hasn't truly started yet so I am sure there is time for you to join.

[kckolbe]

Signing up as yet another useless player who can't GM, always fond of group RP, and prefer systems.

[wildstar]

I am curious too. I use to play D&D when I was growing up but I never GM'd or DM'd a game before. I loved playing freeform and exploring. if you lads and ladies get a game going I'm game. I'd even join those already going. I hope that is if you'd like a fighter along. 

[MasterMischief]

I posted this while I was waiting to be approved.  I am not online much during the week, so I would likely only be able to post on the weekends.  I could also run those games in a Yahoo chat room if there was interest in that sort of thing.

Happy hunting!

[OldSchoolGamer]

You know, one possibility I'll throw out into this thread is OSRIC:

http://knights-n-knaves.com/osric/downloads/OSRIC.pdf

The advantages of OSRIC are that:

1) It's a free download, so anyone can acquire the source materials
2) The ruleset is basically Advanced Dungeons and Dragons (Second Edition) with the serial numbers filed off.  A few carefully selected concepts from Third are added, but really, if you know AD&D 2.0, you already know about 90% of OSRIC.
3) There's enough structure to run the game, but enough ambiguity to allow for house rules and other mods.  And if you have any supplements to Second Edition lurking around, they can be used with only slight modification.
4) I might, possibly, be talked into running an OSRIC game...

[Cythieus]

AD&D seems kind of hard to learn compared to 3.5

[OldSchoolGamer]

AD&D seems kind of hard to learn compared to 3.5

It does look intimidating.  But once you learn it, the gameplay is easier.  For instance, in an attack there's one die roll to determine hits and a second for damage (if the first roll is a hit) as opposed to strike and counterstrike and whatnot.  Plus, OSRIC is freely accessible, so it makes a good common denominator.

The main reason I don't like 3.5 is because it actually took me less time to compute and complete my income tax return last year than it did to create a 3.5 character.  With OSRIC/AD&D, you roll the six ability scores, pick your alignment and class, choose your spells (if applicable), equipment--and that's about it.  You can use nonweapon proficiencies if you want--you simply pick from a list rather than fuss with skill points, ranks and whatnot.

In short, it's enough system to provide some structure, but not so much as to be a pain in the ass.

[Cythieus]

I just use a character generator. But the amount of literature on 3.5 is stunning. I was never a big fan of the restrictions on classes in AD&D2. But I am aching to play some D&D

[OldSchoolGamer]

I just use a character generator. But the amount of literature on 3.5 is stunning. I was never a big fan of the restrictions on classes in AD&D2. But I am aching to play some D&D

I never was either, which is why when I ran AD&D 2 games I ignored most of that.  Ditto for level limits.

[Cythieus]

Level limits? Not sure what you mean.

And you would hate 4th E, because they basically made every class play like the classes from The Book of 9 Swords in 3.5

[OldSchoolGamer]

Level limits? Not sure what you mean.

And you would hate 4th E, because they basically made every class play like the classes from The Book of 9 Swords in 3.5

My biggest bone to pick with Third and above is it's basically a port of WoW to pencil-and-paper, with a few concepts borrowed from Dungeons and Dragons.  It should have been called "Dungeons and Warcraft."

Level limits in some of the earlier versions of D&D capped the level advancement of nonhumans.  Many players and DMs, myself included, either raised the caps or eliminated them entirely from our games.

[Cythieus]

I thought 3E predates WOW (I can't remember) but I love 3.5. I just can't stand how 4E is basically all stuff you see in games like WOW. The character stuff is so limiting and there's so much effort to balance that most of the classes and characters are too powerful it seems.

Also have you tried Pathfinder?

[Thufir Hawat]

When a DM told me he was ignoring level limits for non-humans, my first question was "do humans get multi-classing, then" ;)?
That said, guys, if you allow me to give you an advice - stop discussing systems! Well, I enjoy it, so we can open a new thread for it, but here is not the place... :D
Most free-form people who are willing to try their hand at systems couldn't participate meaningfully...for now :P. If you are willing to GM, offer them a "package deal", complete with setting, system and your GMing style and assumptions. I find the latter to be more important than the actual system for their enjoyment of the game. Sure, a system they intuitively dislike might ruin it for them, but I've seen more games being disrupted by clashes of assumptions...
If that happens, hopefully, they will remember that systems are different. We should make it clear by then, if they look at the other thread I'm suggesting ;D!

[WyzardWhately]

My biggest bone to pick with Third and above is it's basically a port of WoW to pencil-and-paper, with a few concepts borrowed from Dungeons and Dragons.  It should have been called "Dungeons and Warcraft."

Third Edition predated World of Warcraft.  Vastly.

But then, these objections are rarely about facts, so why should you bother to learn any?

[WyzardWhately]

I just can't stand how 4E is basically all stuff you see in games like WOW.

Yeah, it has character classes, and races, and treasures, and magic weapons and spells, and you gain experience and level up and there's hit points and...totally like WoW.  Absolutely.

The character stuff is so limiting and there's so much effort to balance that most of the classes and characters are too powerful it seems.

Character "stuff" is limiting?  You can play a fighter, a wizard, a rogue (thief), or a cleric.  There's humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings.  Pretty much the classic D&D setup already, and that's only half the races and classes.  If someone is unable to put together an interesting character within the framework of the rules, I'd suggest that's not a problem with the system.

Your second objection is completely nonsensical.  The game is balanced -> overpowered?  Bwuh?  I'm going to guess that you haven't actually bothered to understand how the game system functions, much less played it.  But it "seems" overpowered.  Maybe, and here's a thought, it was simply designed to let the PCs be mighty heroes and badasses.  Not everyone likes that (hell, I love going back and playing OD&D sometimes), but it's not a fault of the game to succeed at its design goals.

[Callie Del Noire]

I thought 3E predates WOW (I can't remember) but I love 3.5. I just can't stand how 4E is basically all stuff you see in games like WOW. The character stuff is so limiting and there's so much effort to balance that most of the classes and characters are too powerful it seems.

Also have you tried Pathfinder?

It (3e) is Pre-WoW.. now 4E is definitely WoW on paper.

[WyzardWhately]

now 4E is definitely WoW on paper.

Yeah, just keep on trotting out the same tired, ridiculous talking points over and over.  If you keep grinding at this quest, you will eventually gain the "My way of pretending to be an elf is better than your way of pretending to be an elf" achievement.

[Callie Del Noire]

Yeah, just keep on trotting out the same tired, ridiculous talking points over and over.  If you keep grinding at this quest, you will eventually gain the "My way of pretending to be an elf is better than your way of pretending to be an elf" achievement.

Not that WoW is bad (I'm an Uber WoW fan.. 3 80s on Silvermoon). It's just 4e wasn't DnD at all. Not one bit. Sorry , not buying it. I was a bit put off by the way they did Multiclasses (one of my favorite sections) and it went down here from there. When I found out you could 'disenchant' magic items into a fine dust used to make new magic items I put the books back in the slip case and they have mouldered on my shelf since then.

[Cythieus]

Yeah, it has character classes, and races, and treasures, and magic weapons and spells, and you gain experience and level up and there's hit points and...totally like WoW.  Absolutely.

Character "stuff" is limiting?  You can play a fighter, a wizard, a rogue (thief), or a cleric.  There's humans, elves, dwarves, and halflings.  Pretty much the classic D&D setup already, and that's only half the races and classes.  If someone is unable to put together an interesting character within the framework of the rules, I'd suggest that's not a problem with the system.

Your second objection is completely nonsensical.  The game is balanced -> overpowered?  Bwuh?  I'm going to guess that you haven't actually bothered to understand how the game system functions, much less played it.  But it "seems" overpowered.  Maybe, and here's a thought, it was simply designed to let the PCs be mighty heroes and badasses.  Not everyone likes that (hell, I love going back and playing OD&D sometimes), but it's not a fault of the game to succeed at its design goals.

Actually I meant the way that the moves work, but you know there's absolutely no reason to act rude about it, I was simply expressing an opinion. I'm not a fan of 4E or WOW actually, and I've tried to play both, own all the books for 4E on PDF and basically ever 3.5 and 3E and AD&D2 supplement. I haven't read over them all, but I have seen AD&D be played and I have played the others, I am running a 3.5 game right now and I am playing in several others, the system is better to me and all classes aren't meant to be balanced, that's the nature of games. Basically every game I played certain classes were good for certain things. If everyone is good all the time it sucks, there's no specialization. Then the powers, I don't like them because they seem more limiting than the Feats were. The powers remind me of the book of nine swords stuff (which is one of the books I tend to disallow)

Every alignment has Paladins? What's up with that? I didn't even like the Paladin of Slaughter and Tyranny now you can have them anywhere. I also don't like the alignment system and other things seem dumbed down.

[WyzardWhately]

Not that WoW is bad (I'm an Uber WoW fan.. 3 80s on Silvermoon). It's just 4e wasn't DnD at all. Not one bit. Sorry , not buying it. I was a bit put off by the way they did Multiclasses (one of my favorite sections) and it went down here from there. When I found out you could 'disenchant' magic items into a fine dust used to make new magic items I put the books back in the slip case and they have mouldered on my shelf since then.

It's a very *different* game, and indeed no one is obligated to like it.  I personally can't stand running 3.x once the game reaches levels around the double digits.

What irritates me is hearing the endless, senseless, and inconsistent attacks on a game, most of which seem calculated to accomplish nothing more than to cloak the attacker in false roleplaying superiority.

[WyzardWhately]

Actually I meant the way that the moves work, but you know there's absolutely no reason to act rude about it, I was simply expressing an opinion.

You are absolutely welcome to hold and express the opinion that 4E is not the game for you.  Once your opinion wanders into the territory of stating some factual matter, though (unreasonable resemblance to WoW), it's not impolite at all to challenge your statements. 

Further, you need to realize that your statements do not exist in a vacuum.  There is a context in place.  That context is endless, stupid edition wars which have broken out across what seems like every roleplaying game board on the internet.  I find it very difficult to believe you aren't aware of this argument, because you've came out with exactly the same pointless criticisms that have already been countered ad nauseum.

So, there's a nearly-necessary conclusion that when someone comes out with more 4E=WoW!1!!! garbage, they're not really thinking it through, and there's no point in treating it with much charity.

[Callie Del Noire]

It's a very *different* game, and indeed no one is obligated to like it.  I personally can't stand running 3.x once the game reaches levels around the double digits.

What irritates me is hearing the endless, senseless, and inconsistent attacks on a game, most of which seem calculated to accomplish nothing more than to cloak the attacker in false roleplaying superiority.

Well I find a lot of 3.X's warts are fixed by Pathfinder. And no offense but I don't like the cookie cutter method of allowing 'you can use this attack x times in a fight/day/hour' method of 4e.

Not to mention Wizards near total boycott on anything they don't approach/control. I miss the hard copy versions of Dragon/Dungeon, and the availability of all the old stuff on PDF was nice.. but Wizards/Hasbro's heavy handed handling of that sort of soured me on them.

[Cythieus]

You are absolutely welcome to hold and express the opinion that 4E is not the game for you.  Once your opinion wanders into the territory of stating some factual matter, though (unreasonable resemblance to WoW), it's not impolite at all to challenge your statements. 

Further, you need to realize that your statements do not exist in a vacuum.  There is a context in place.  That context is endless, stupid edition wars which have broken out across what seems like every roleplaying game board on the internet.  I find it very difficult to believe you aren't aware of this argument, because you've came out with exactly the same pointless criticisms that have already been countered ad nauseum.

So, there's a nearly-necessary conclusion that when someone comes out with more 4E=WoW!1!!! garbage, they're not really thinking it through, and there's no point in treating it with much charity.

I actually thought it was like WOW before anyone ever told me, back when I listened to the Penny Arcade podcast they did before the game was out. I don't float in gaming networks and I've only been role playing for a little over a year now. My complains about the game are pretty valid. A lot of people using a complaint doesn't make it invalid or valid and when I played 4E, it was right after I started to understand 3.5. So its not like I was poisoned by years of exposure to one...

And as Callie said, Pathfinder fixes a lot of 3.5's issues. Pathfinder Half-Elves are the best.

[WyzardWhately]

Well I find a lot of 3.X's warts are fixed by Pathfinder. And no offense but I don't like the cookie cutter method of allowing 'you can use this attack x times in a fight/day/hour' method of 4e.

Not to mention Wizards near total boycott on anything they don't approach/control. I miss the hard copy versions of Dragon/Dungeon, and the availability of all the old stuff on PDF was nice.. but Wizards/Hasbro's heavy handed handling of that sort of soured me on them.

Fair enough, nobody sane will tell you you have to like it.  I don't think there's such a drastic difference in 4E's split of powers and the old vancian system, but I mostly view it as an abstraction of what's going on in the game world.  It works well enough in play.

I've looked into Pathfinder, and it's definitely really neat, but I don't believe it's addressed any of the problems I actually *had* with 3.x.

[WyzardWhately]

I don't float in gaming networks and I've only been role playing for a little over a year now.

May I suggest, then, that you may not know enough about the history of D&D to put your issues into proper context?  Has it occurred to you that if WoW & D&D resemble each other to some degree, it's because of their deeply intertwined common ancestry?  The whole genre of CRPGs and later MMOs was heavily informed by D&D and other tabletop RPGs.  If there's been some cross-pollination, why would that be crazy or even a bad idea?

My complains about the game are pretty valid. A lot of people using a complaint doesn't make it invalid or valid and when I played 4E, it was right after I started to understand 3.5. So its not like I was poisoned by years of exposure to one...

Saying your complaints are valid don't make them so.  A lot of people making a complaint doesn't make it invalid, it makes it repetitive and annoying, especially when they feel the need to spout off about it in unrelated threads. 

[Cythieus]

Fair enough, nobody sane will tell you you have to like it.  I don't think there's such a drastic difference in 4E's split of powers and the old vancian system, but I mostly view it as an abstraction of what's going on in the game world.  It works well enough in play.

I've looked into Pathfinder, and it's definitely really neat, but I don't believe it's addressed any of the problems I actually *had* with 3.x.

A huge problem I had with 3.5 was many of the interesting aspects, didn't work well in game. For instance one of my favorite classes concept wise is the Swashbuckler. But I have had DM's disallow them on the grounds that they don't carry enough weight in the party. Then the Half-Elf, I love the idea of a mixed race like that where you get to role play what the aspects of that culture would mean. But why take it when you will end up with one more feat for being Human or better DEX as an Elf?

[Doomsday]

Yeah, just keep on trotting out the same tired, ridiculous talking points over and over.  If you keep grinding at this quest, you will eventually gain the "My way of pretending to be an elf is better than your way of pretending to be an elf" achievement.

Warning - while you were reading 5 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post.

Wow guys.

Now to actually reply to that quoted post...

[Cythieus]

May I suggest, then, that you may not know enough about the history of D&D to put your issues into proper context?  Has it occurred to you that if WoW & D&D resemble each other to some degree, it's because of their deeply intertwined common ancestry?  The whole genre of CRPGs and later MMOs was heavily informed by D&D and other tabletop RPGs.  If there's been some cross-pollination, why would that be crazy or even a bad idea?

Saying your complaints are valid don't make them so.  A lot of people making a complaint doesn't make it invalid, it makes it repetitive and annoying, especially when they feel the need to spout off about it in unrelated threads. 

I actually do know a lot about D&D's history, just never was a community person when it came to the game. I've been playing RPG video games since I was just out of diapers (FFI waaaaaaaaaay back when) my first encounters with D&D were my brothers old books which I was forbidden to touch and in boy scouts later where we were instructed by our over zealous leader it was demonic. But I read back on these things and look at them because at the heart of it, many games still work on the D&D engine.

I only started playing so late in life because people either were rude and wouldn't teach me how or no one else knew how.

[WyzardWhately]

A huge problem I had with 3.5 was many of the interesting aspects, didn't work well in game. For instance one of my favorite classes concept wise is the Swashbuckler. But I have had DM's disallow them on the grounds that they don't carry enough weight in the party. Then the Half-Elf, I love the idea of a mixed race like that where you get to role play what the aspects of that culture would mean. But why take it when you will end up with one more feat for being Human or better DEX as an Elf?

Well, the deep underlying problem is that there are too many ways that trying to pursue your concept will cause your character to be underpowered.  It's a shame and a waste to punish people for using the options they're given in the books.

[Decrepitdan]

I will throw my hat into the ring with this tidbit - WoW was directly studied by the developers of 4.0. Its in their production notes.
As an aside, are there any good 3.5 games going on out there?

[Cythieus]

I will throw my hat into the ring with this tidbit - WoW was directly studied by the developers of 4.0. Its in their production notes.
As an aside, are there any good 3.5 games going on out there?

Supposed to be one starting up, I was looking for a super high powered campaign and I made a character for one that might not start for a few weeks. But I might have my plate full too.

[Decrepitdan]

I think id rather work my way up, abilities dont mean much to me unless my characters bled for them. :) Hopefully one starts from level 1!

[Cythieus]

I think id rather work my way up, abilities dont mean much to me unless my characters bled for them. :) Hopefully one starts from level 1!

The one we're making them for starts at 15.

It seems like an Exercise in game breaking because my character has 30 DEX and her weapon is capable of these: 1d8+6+1d6+2d6+1d6+2d6+4d6 → [6,6,5,6,1,3,4,2,6,6,3,2] = (50)

...kind of rolls.

[Doomsday]

I'd rather start low as well, it's mind boggling, trying to make a level 15 character.

[Decrepitdan]

Yeah, it's hard to start out at a given high level. Other than the lack of a sense of achievement, I find players mess up or misuse their abilities a lot when they do that.

[Cythieus]

I use a character generator. Typically I make up a story for them as to how they got that way.

[Decrepitdan]

I did that once or twice, and so many people I played with had no-bake stories it was pathetic. :)

[Cythieus]

I had a story for one girl that went back to her Grand Father, another pair of characters were married and had a daughter. I go into likes, dislikes, preferences, addictions, family history, temperament, sometimes enemies and the like. You want to give a DM a lot to work with.

[BenedictWolfe]

Meh; I once made an ECL 500 character for a roleplay.

[MasterMischief]

I did that once or twice, and so many people I played with had no-bake stories it was pathetic. :)

If their characters had names, be thankful.

[Decrepitdan]

With the group I played with, believe me I was!
        -NONATIONARMY: You have my uunequivocal agreement, ive seen too many campaigns tank because of lack of character depth, which inevitably led to infighting.

[MasterMischief]

I do not think that was the real issue.  Some people want to kill things and take their stuff.  Some people want to start an improvisational trope.  Sprinkle in all sorts of desires between these two extremes and is it any wonder there is so much rancor?

I think the trick is to find people with similar tastes, just as anything else in life.

As far as the Edition Wars, I think it comes down to some people see some aspects as flaws where others see them as features.  In order to justify their own position, people color those aspects in a way to better support their own preferences.

It is ridiculous because anyone with two brain cells knows D&D is full of fail!  Hero System FTW!!1!!shift+1   ;D

[Cythieus]

With the group I played with, believe me I was!
         -NONATIONARMY: You have my uunequivocal agreement, ive seen too many campaigns tank because of lack of character depth, which inevitably led to infighting.

Well right now I am in a large long term campaign and I am running it too and one of my basic problems is how some of the other characters seem to show little growth or remorse.

Our Sorcerer has been responsible for the party burning down half a town, getting some other innocents killed and almost destroying an airship, but the person playing him continues to act rashly and the others see that as his personality. Thing is you would think he would learn after like over a year of them being together and 10 levels of work.

And yeah, I had too many people enter my game at first with two line back stories. Some of them under the guise that their character was mysterious. You know, stuff like this:

Not much is know about Evin Felldarkwindshadow, he's a mysterious and powerful individual.

[size="4"]Name: Deirdre d’Cannith AKA "Dee"[/size]

Race: Human
Class: Swashbuckler

Appearance:
Dee stand's five foot five and is about 130 pounds in weight. She has dark brown hair that is usually styled in ringlet curls and falls to the middle of her back, pale white skin and green eyes. Dee has a curvaceous body type which she's very proud of and always trying to show off. Besides that, Dee is very particular about her hair and hates to get it messed up or wet without good reason (part of her up bringing). Dee's regular clothes (under the armor) are a fine leather vest and a red dress. She's also either wearing boots or heeled boots.

She speaks with what would be a British accent.

Personality:
Dee is a free spirit. She is trying to go her own way in life. While her family was a huge part of her early life she quickly out grew them. She can’t stand to be held down and confined by anyone. Even then she never gave much weight to politics or patriotism because she never had much of a reason to. In her life, her parents were the ultimate control. At the same time, she has a deeply kind side that she tries to conceal because she figures that others will see it as weakness. Dee loves children and animals no matter how much she professes not to. Because of studies as a girl, Dee has a good head when it comes to math and science. She boasts some decent problem solving skills.

At the same time she tends to play dumb a lot because she has seen how some men don’t trust intelligent women. Dee can be selfish to a point, but at the same time she doesn’t like seeing kids suffer and she has some sense of right and wrong, even if it doesn’t line up with everyone else’s and the law. Whether asked or not, you can be sure that Dee will voice her opinion. She is also very proud of her body and frequently expresses as much. While daring, she is cautious and understands when she is outmatched. She is used to living in luxury and it shows in her taste in clothes, how she keeps up her appearance and her mannerisms.

Immediate Family:
Father – Victor
Mother – Heather
Sister – Valleria (26)
Sister – Cissinei (16)
Brother – Cambreth (22)

Background:
Dee was born in Cyre in 975 YK into the House of Cannith to, Victor and Heather d’Cannith. Despite growing up in the latter end of The Last War, Dee was well educated and grew rather used to living in the lap of luxury. Despite that she quickly grew tired of the special treatment she received and the way that she was to have her whole life planned out before her. The idea of having no say so in who she was and what she did bothered and upset her and as she grew into adolescence. The idea that they profited from the suffering of others bothered her as did feelings of uncertainty about her own freedom. Time went on and these things bred arguments with her parents.

They were disappointed that their daughter wasn’t growing up with the same respect for the house her brother and sisters had. She had little to no interest in their business and what they produced and when being told about it or lectured she couldn’t be bothered to stay awake.

Her parents also worried about the company that she kept and the things she was interested in. She spent her time practicing with sword and mace and to curb this interest, her parents put her in fencing lessons. Most of her graceful movements with thin blades were picked up there and she grew fond of the feel of a light blade over heavier, less precise ones. Fencing gave her a form of control, something that she had in her hands and could use to her liking.

Dee took the same approach to relationships, treating her significant others as disposable to the point that her father questioned her and told her that he prayed she settled down some day and just raised a nice family that could contribute to the house. Dee wouldn’t have it. While she did have friends many of them were like her and couldn’t understand why she would push back so harshly against the influence of her house.

In 994, just days before the destruction of Cyre her family was asked to go to Taer Valaestas on business. Despite her protests they left from their home in the safety of Cyre and before they had returned, the entire city was destroyed by unknown causes along with the family Patriarch. Dee has fond memories of Starrin d'Cannith from when she was small child and when things were happy. She saw her family as being the blame for the escalation of destructive power in the war, though. And she was sure that something in the forge of the Cannith House had caused the tragedy.

The fighting between her and her mother became more and more furious and frequent, she decided that it might be time that she make a path for herself. Dee and her mother had never been close, mostly because of Dee’s overly flirtatious nature as a young teen and her rebellious habits. She spent her time gambling and drinking.

After the war ended, the arguments still continued. When her parents received word that there was some business to which someone needed to attend, they asked Dee if she wanted to help. The problem was something that shouldn’t have been too dangerous and would have allowed Dee to use her fighting skills. She reluctantly took the mission, less because she wanted to please them and more because she wanted to see what this life they wanted her to live would be like.

Dee took the fighting rather naturally and with an eagerness that impressed even her. But the bureaucracy with which the situation was bogged down constantly and the red tape and restrictions bothered Dee and only increased her annoyance with the family. At the same time, she caught glimpses of how people lived outside of the better areas of town and was startled to see that what she had thought of as improvised was nowhere near it.

The poor people that she saw out there were truly poor and it made her wonder even more what her family was doing besides causing trouble for these people.

Then Dee would purposefully start fights with people to show off her skills, never killing anyone but usually causing the authorities to step in and stop the fight. Her parents took notice of this and tried to reason with her and get her to see things their way. But their way involved no freedom and no more fighting.

Dee desired to leave above all else. And while she had the money, she really had nowhere to go because her experiences with other people that she was close to were basically nonexistent. Curiously one of her infamous fights landed her in jail; her parents didn’t care to bail her out this time because they wanted her to learn her lesson. While she was there a letter came to the jail telling her to come to Sharn.

When she was released, she decided to pursue it.

Goals:
To forge her own path in life and make a name for herself without her house’s influence.

I do not think that was the real issue.  Some people want to kill things and take their stuff.  Some people want to start an improvisational trope.  Sprinkle in all sorts of desires between these two extremes and is it any wonder there is so much rancor?

I think the trick is to find people with similar tastes, just as anything else in life.

As far as the Edition Wars, I think it comes down to some people see some aspects as flaws where others see them as features.  In order to justify their own position, people color those aspects in a way to better support their own preferences.

It is ridiculous because anyone with two brain cells knows D&D is full of fail!  Hero System FTW!!1!!shift+1   ;D

What's Hero system?

[MasterMischief]

What's Hero system?

You poor, lost soul.

Hero System

[Cythieus]

I am kind of liking the Cortex System so far.

[Decrepitdan]

    Nice development, NoNation. I actually had people a teensy bit more creative than that, but by the time we had the third person orphaned by a forest fire or marauding orcs...I just planted my forehead in my hand and knew it would be a long campaign. I unfortunately, was DM.
    I don't like Hero system myself, i'll stick with DnD, she's been a faithful mistress.

[MasterMischief]

I actually had people a teensy bit more creative than that, but by the time we had the third person orphaned by a forest fire or marauding orcs...I just planted my forehead in my hand and knew it would be a long campaign.

Next time I get one of those, I am going to have the family show up later in the campaign.  "Oh, yeah, sorry about the whole faking our own death thing.  We kind of wanted to just get away from you.  You're kind of violent."

[MasterMischief]

I don't like Hero system myself, i'll stick with DnD, she's been a faithful mistress.

If I wanted to be an ass, here is where I would say D&D has no verisimilitude, feels to video-gamey and rapes thousands of years of mythology.

But I would not say that.  It is just a matter of taste.  And yours is no less valid than mine.

This is not directed at you, Decrepitdan.  Just trying to show people how others might feel.

[Decrepitdan]

Well said, not-opponent! *chuckles* It would be interesting however if DnD hadn't come along, I wonder where gaming would be without the d20 system...still in the Napoleonic war reenactment phase?

[MasterMischief]

That is a very intriguing question.  May I suggest you start a thread to entertain that discussion?

[Decrepitdan]

I would gladly join the thread mentioned above, im just feeling lazy right now. Supeeeerbly lazy.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Circling back 'round to the original point of the thread:

I would be willing to run a game using the OSRIC/AD&D 2.0 system (which is freely downloadable).  I would not be able to run a 3.0+ D&D game because I don't have the materials, and the math coprocessor in my gray matter is already overclocked trying to cope with the Calculus I class I'm taking.  Anyone interested, PM me.

[MasterMischief]

I would gladly join the thread mentioned above, im just feeling lazy right now.

No problem.  I love the deep, meaningful, philosophical questions.

[OldSchoolGamer]

Anyone interested in a 2.0 AD&D game?

[Cythieus]

I found AD&D a little too hard.

[PhantomPistoleer]

:o

Noooo way!

[Jack Stalker]

one of my basic problems is how some of the other characters seem to show little growth or remorse.

Our Sorcerer has been responsible for the party burning down half a town, getting some other innocents killed and almost destroying an airship, but the person playing him continues to act rashly and the others see that as his personality. Thing is you would think he would learn after like over a year of them being together and 10 levels of work.

*pop* appears as if by magic...

I have found this too, as have most GM's I expect.

While Ravenloft is not to everyones taste it is a great tool for 'taming' psychopaths and hack and slayers... the threat of a few powers checks and the knowledge that bad actions could first corrupt your character and then trap them in Ravenloft for good works wonders. ;)

[Cythieus]

Don't know how it works, but its not that he does these things to kill people ruthlessly. It's that he does it without thinking of consequences and over estimates his power.