A hypothetical question for gays and lesbians

[MissMoonchild]

Before I even get to the question let me tell you a bit about myself.

I am a bisexual, married, mother and I as having a conversation with a very good friend of mine who is going through the process of gender reassignment. We will simply refer to her as Amanda as that is her new name. There's very little that we keep from each other and no topic is taboo. While talking about Amanda's journey a question came up from her that I simply wasn't able to answer.

The question is, how would gay men feel about hooking up with a man who was born a biological woman, and how would lesbians feel about hooking up with a woman who was born a biological man?

I personally wouldn't be thrown by it, per se, but I feel like there are two good reasons my feelings don't really answer Amanda's question. First, I'm bisexual and have been with both men and women. Second, I've never really ever considered it or been in that situation.

I figured I'd take my question here to Elliquiy because it's the most diverse crowd of people that I feel I could pose this question to. I'm very curious to see what people have to say, and yes, I did plan on discussing the answers I get with Amanda.

So, tell me, how would you feel?

[MissMoonchild]

It was pointed out to me that I should mention....Any opinions that I share with Amanda I'm obviously not going to identify the people who gave those opinions. I completely understand that it's a sensitive subject and just like I respect her privacy I would respect yours.

[Trieste]

This is a generalized question that doesn't have an answer because the reactions will be individualized.

I suppose I'm not your target demographic because I'm bi rather than gay or les, but I have personally had more than one crush on someone who is trans or intersex. While I identify as bi, I suppose I actually count as 'pansexual' in the hip new lingo because what I care about is the person's mind. If I am attracted to them mentally, attraction to their body will follow. So it doesn't matter if they are male, female, trans, intersex, crossgender, or a particularly well-dressed lemon.

However, there will be gay people who care and who don't care. There will be les people who care and don't care. Just as there are straight and bi people who care and who don't care. You can't really translate that into a "All gays shun FTM transgender partners", etc. I don't think you'll get one if you're looking for an absolute. >.>

[MissMoonchild]

Not really looking for a universal answer. I appreciate that answers are going to be individual opinions but I'm just curious what sort of consensus (if any) would come of the diverse crowd here.

I think you and I are in similar boats as far as our opinions go.

[Silk]

I think you might have some more luck with this question in the LGBT section :)

[Rhapsody]

I suppose I'm not exactly your target demographic either. I try to avoid labels: even though I'm a married woman with children by a male spouse, I find women attractive, and have slept with them in the past. Most people call that "bisexual". I call it "flexible". For me, it's more about the person, not the gender. What parts happen to be between their legs is incidental to the attraction of their personalities and character. That would go for transgendered folk as well, in my books.

[Dashenka]

I am a lesbian but only because I happen to be in love and in a relationship with a girl. Had she been a he, I'd have been straight.

With that I think I have answered your question :)

I do not fall in love with a gender but with a person. So if that person was born a man or woman and is now the opposite sex, I don't care. As long as he or she is happy and we love each other I don't see any problems.

What I do want to say though and I'm not sure if this is relevant to your or Amanda's situation... do not change yourself for somebody else to like you. If a man 'changes' into a woman for a woman because the woman is said to be a lesbian, you have a very wrong base for a relationship. True love doesn't discriminate. If Amanda wants to gender change because the other person is gay, he will not love her even when she is a man (or vice versa).

Does that make sense?

[Serephino]

I will also say that it's what's on the inside that counts.  If I liked someone that was a post-op trans it wouldn't bother me at all as long as I wasn't lied to about it.

[DarklingAlice]

It's an interesting question, and I'm not really in a position to answer it. I believe Trieste is right though. Despite our habit of being lumped together, I find that gay people's views on transfolk are not really that different from straight people's *shrugs*

[MissMoonchild]

Dashenka, I absolutely get what you're saying. Luckily neither myself nor Amanda are trying to be anything other than who and what we were born to be.

I appreciate everyone's input on this.

Serephino, let me pose this question to you then. What if they were pre-op?

[Tiberius]

Would take a really solid foundation for them to not freak out that their partner just changed sex. Saw a story one time about a married couple and the man was transexual and then had the op while married to a woman. And turned into a woman, and they're still married. The wife said she didn't care, she wanted her husband to be happy. But it is a pretty rare case, most people would freak out if their partner suddenly decided to have the operation. Or was considering it and didn't discuss it, which I find is more common then usual.

[Trieste]

I think that probably that statement should be an "I" statement rather than a general one, given the number of people who just posted before you that they are attracted to the person, not the plumbing.

[Serephino]

Dashenka, I absolutely get what you're saying. Luckily neither myself nor Amanda are trying to be anything other than who and what we were born to be.

I appreciate everyone's input on this.

Serephino, let me pose this question to you then. What if they were pre-op?

Pre-op wouldn't matter to me either.  I would just want the person to be honest with me.  I mean, I wouldn't expect said person to spill their guts on the first date, but that's something I'd want to know if things started getting serious.

[Thesunmaid]

I have dated a preop transexual. We broke up because they moved away for schooling and I still love her dearly and we still email. Honestly to me your plumbing is not that important. Its the person. I just happen to be married in a heterosexual relationship but I would love him just as much if he had been born a woman.

(side note my hubby has long gourgous hair some women would kill for ahem yes but moving along)

To me I think love is love...people who are hung up on what their bodies used to look like so long as your in love should not matter.You love the person your with so that involves accepting them as they are now. You don't have to love their past but keep in mind their past made them into the person you love today.

[Braioch]

Before I even get to the question let me tell you a bit about myself.

I am a bisexual, married, mother and I as having a conversation with a very good friend of mine who is going through the process of gender reassignment. We will simply refer to her as Amanda as that is her new name. There's very little that we keep from each other and no topic is taboo. While talking about Amanda's journey a question came up from her that I simply wasn't able to answer.

The question is, how would gay men feel about hooking up with a man who was born a biological woman, and how would lesbians feel about hooking up with a woman who was born a biological man?

I personally wouldn't be thrown by it, per se, but I feel like there are two good reasons my feelings don't really answer Amanda's question. First, I'm bisexual and have been with both men and women. Second, I've never really ever considered it or been in that situation.

I figured I'd take my question here to Elliquiy because it's the most diverse crowd of people that I feel I could pose this question to. I'm very curious to see what people have to say, and yes, I did plan on discussing the answers I get with Amanda.

So, tell me, how would you feel?

As I am attracted to the male form, and the penis, I would need both of those things to function properly in a sexual relationship. If in this hypothetical, we had the bits needed for a fully functional relationship (for those of us that do require sex to be a part of the relationship) then no, I would have no issue. Ended up on a date with a guy who was like that, just missing the lower bits, shame too, cute...nice, nice ass too, fantastic kisser. ::)

But he liked being inbetween sexes like that, where he said he felt more at home, and hey, whatever makes him happy. We stayed good friends, he's living on the West Coast, doing his own thing, but we keep in occasional contact, met himself a nice, if interesting girl last I heard.

;D

[Torch]

As I am attracted to the male form, and the penis, I would need both of those things to function properly in a sexual relationship. If in this hypothetical, we had the bits needed for a fully functional relationship (for those of us that do require sex to be a part of the relationship) then no, I would have no issue.

This.

As much as I am attracted to the person inside, the penis is a dealbreaker for me.

[Lyron]

Just hooking up? No. A relationship? I'd still say no, but I guess I couldn't say that it would be entirely impossible for this answer to change, if the situation actually arose, or once I've matured more. I have nothing against transpeople, but I do find sex to be a pretty important aspect of a relationship, and I like dick too much, enough to where I don't think I'd be so willing to settle for anything less than the real thing.

[Haloriel]

Interesting question.  Like Trieste - I would likewise call myself pansexual - though for my teens and my adult life bisexual was the - word of the day - so to speak.

I am married and in a semi-open relationship with careful limits - so if I were to step out of the box? 

If I was single and looking - it would not matter.  I adore each person that ... attracts me almost ninety percent for their mind and how lovely it is, how intelligent they are and how much I can learn from them about myself and others.

While it is true I have ... a list of specific qualities physically that make me pause and wish I had the genetics to arch only one brow (I do not), I support the idea that people should do within reason what makes them happy.

The important concept is honesty.  It would make me very sad, for example, if said person was not open with me regarding their birth status and there were deeper feelings involved especially. 

After all - a relationship lasts due to the above and constant communication, in my experience. 

Of course - I count myself rather lucky!  Rambling aside, I hope that my contribution was a help to you, MissMoonchild.

[Brittany]

I'm not gay or lesbian but this question could be applied to anyone. 

I am heterosexual.  This means I like men.  I see the value in female erotica but that is as far as I'm ever going to venture.  I get the "love the person not the gender" but feel you have to be inherently bisexual to do this.  I love 8 women in my life but I have no desire to sleep with or marry them because essentially my sexual responses, desires to have children and a want to stay with this person forever only kick in when men are involved.  As a person, i identify and generally like other women way more than I do men, and all my friends are ladies.  But deep down my desires are to be with and mate with a man.  I could force myself to marry my best friend, and we'd get on like a house on fire, but we wouldn't ever "click" in the bedroom because we are two straight girls, and thats OK.

Could I see myself dating someone who was born a woman?  I don't think I could personally.  My attraction to men is natural, and while I fully respect and try to treat transgenders in the way they wish to be treated, this is a learned response from me.  My natural instincts still tend to recognise someones original gender and my natural feelings and guarding mechanisms react the way they would if this person were their original gender.   It's very difficult to explain, my heart just wouldn't (or hasn't) fluttered around such a person. 

If I were a lesbian?  I would probably feel the same way.  I would be attracted to women for a reason and would want to date a woman, probably a girlie girl with funny childhood stories and the biggest pair of natural boobs I could bury my face in if I'm being quite honest.  I simply find natural figures more attractive than surgery aided ones.   While I can recognise that a transgender feels like and desires to be a woman, it still wouldn't be what I would be looking for in such a relationship.

It's not just physical either, mentally I react different when I'm speaking to a male or a female, and for the most part transgenders get the same natural response from me as someone of their original sex.  I would have to watch not to accidentally call a transgender customer "sir" for example.  I know it's not nice and not what they want, and I'd be mortified if I actually said it, but it's hard wiring in my brain that is very hard, and maybe impossible without cognitive therapy, to undo. 

The other thing, is it is quite rare to meet a transgender that hasn't had a lot of issues in life and doesn't have a lot of depth to their character.  This isn't everyone's cup of tea.  I have to say, for me personally, I want my partner to be interesting, but I don't want too much baggage.  I'd be as inclined to stay away from as transgender as much as I would a man three times divorced, or someone with kids, or someone who was abused all their life.  Because my life is generally not very complex, and I don't feel I match well with these types of people, or can offer much support and understanding and again this is OK.

To apply this question only to homosexuals seems to imply that they are more likely to be tolerant of a transgender, more likely to recognise a transgender as the sex they (the homosexual) are interested in, more likely to put up with any confusion and baggage that relationship brings, and more likely to in some cases settle for a partner that doesn't fully identify with the gender they represent (in terms of operations and genitalia).  There is much more tolerance of transgenders in the homosexual community in the main.  But I've also seen some homosexuals resent the T part of the BGLT tag and be quite nasty about them being associated with the gay movement.  When it comes down to it, a lot of homosexuals would have as little interest in dating a TG as I would.  And I'm sure there are plenty of heterosexuals who would if the right person came along.  There is no right or wrong answer, it comes down to the individual.

[DarklingAlice]

I can understand having particularly strong feelings about the penis, vagina, and breasts. It makes sense to me that the presence or absence of those various elements influences physical attraction among hetero and homosexuals. But at the same time I am not comfortable with the characterization of trans men and women as 'mentally' their birth sex. A transwoman is not a man who merely 'feels like and want to be a woman' she is a woman.

[Braioch]

I can understand having particularly strong feelings about the penis, vagina, and breasts. It makes sense to me that the presence or absence of those various elements influences physical attraction among hetero and homosexuals. But at the same time I am not comfortable with the characterization of trans men and women as 'mentally' their birth sex. A transwoman is not a man who merely 'feels like and want to be a woman' she is a woman.

I have never quite looked at it as 'they feel/want to be [insert gender]' sometimes it comes across as such in my words. I have a habit of saying things that belie what I actually believe, and it requires someone to point it out for me to notice it adjust it. In my view, you are what you are, they are whatever they are, just as with people who fit the gender binary extremes either way. I have my likes and my dislikes that can sometimes blur the line and yet things that do not brook any opposition. Some of my likes and dislikes have been criticized, which can be bewildering to me at times, I cannot help that I do not like overly effeminate men, nor do I like the traditional 'twink' type for the most part. I hold no negative feelings for people whom are like that, but I am not attracted to them sexually, which to me is an important (not the most important, but vital) part of a relationship.

Hope I'm making sense  :-\

[Brittany]

But at the same time I am not comfortable with the characterization of trans men and women as 'mentally' their birth sex. A transwoman is not a man who merely 'feels like and want to be a woman' she is a woman.

I was talking about mentally I perceive THEM as their birth sex.  I know that gets me a lot of flak on a liberal website, but it's the way my brain is wired.   I'm not going to debate whether it is a choice or not, as I'm not informed enough.  It may be a chemical deficiency or a hormone imbalance.  But in your example, my brain tells me, in most cases, that they are a man.  I can learn to understand, I can learn to emphasise and sympathise to an extent.  And I have done.  I respect that they are trying to live a life as a female and I will treat such a person as they wish to be treated, within reason. 

But I don't naturally (my first thought when i see someone) perceive such people as women for the most part and I think it's unfair that you expect me to.  I feel as awkward with them in the female changing rooms as I would a male.  I am as guarded around them as I would be a male.  Any body parts they may have similar to mine were achieved through surgery.  Any hormone balances they have similar to the same as mine were achieved by medicine.  In some peoples views this is progressive means, in my view, it's unnatural means.  If you take yourself out of E, it's actually the view of the large majority.

Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estregen and I'm quite offended by that viewpoint.  I know that is a position that a lot of people on here take, but my right to an opinion is the same as yours. 

[Braioch]

I was talking about mentally I perceive THEM as their birth sex.  I know that gets me a lot of flak on a liberal website, but it's the way my brain is wired.   I'm not going to debate whether it is a choice or not, as I'm not informed enough.  It may be a chemical deficiency or a hormone imbalance.  But in your example, my brain tells me, in most cases, that they are a man.  I can learn to understand, I can learn to emphasise and sympathise to an extent.  And I have done.  I respect that they are trying to live a life as a female and I will treat such a person as they wish to be treated, within reason. 

But I don't naturally (my first thought when i see someone) perceive such people as women for the most part and I think it's unfair that you expect me to.  I feel as awkward with them in the female changing rooms as I would a male.  I am as guarded around them as I would be a male.  Any body parts they may have similar to mine were achieved through surgery.  Any hormone balances they have similar to the same as mine were achieved by medicine.  In some peoples views this is progressive means, in my view, it's unnatural means.  If you take yourself out of E, it's actually the view of the large majority.

Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estregen and I'm quite offended by that viewpoint.  I know that is a position that a lot of people on here take, but my right to an opinion is the same as yours.

I don't think Dark was questioning your right to have an opinion, only stating a discomfort at a particular idea/belief that some people hold. If it was aimed at your belief, well I can understand why that can be upsetting she wasn't saying you shouldn't feel that way.

And when you say most people on here take that position, do you mean that people on E take the position of the whole 'fake boobs and estrogen' thing?

[Brittany]

And when you say most people on here take that position, do you mean that people on E take the position of the whole 'fake boobs and estrogen' thing?

My experience in this section of the forums the last particular evenings, on topics such as feminism and transgenders leads me to believe a lot of people on E appear to believe the only real difference between males and females is whether they have a penis or not and that there is no difference between a born woman with natural breasts, and a born man with fake breasts.  That has actually been said about 4 times now by different members.  It's a liberal attitude popular with homosexuals and transgenders, but the mainstream view outside of websites such as this, tend to be along the lines that the differences run deeper than that.  I won't go into it as I've argued the differences in several threads and I'm actually tired now.

Liberals preach tolerance and respect.  Yet approach them with a view that isn't quite the same as theirs and you are showing intolerance and prejudice.  That attitude in itself is intolerant of my views, and the views of people that agree with me (which several appear to in private messages, but none feel they dare speak out on in this section of the site, which speaks volumes to me).

[Trieste]

I was talking about mentally I perceive THEM as their birth sex.  I know that gets me a lot of flak on a liberal website, but it's the way my brain is wired.   I'm not going to debate whether it is a choice or not, as I'm not informed enough.  It may be a chemical deficiency or a hormone imbalance.  But in your example, my brain tells me, in most cases, that they are a man.  I can learn to understand, I can learn to emphasise and sympathise to an extent.  And I have done.  I respect that they are trying to live a life as a female and I will treat such a person as they wish to be treated, within reason. 

In my experience, it can be very difficult to think of a trans individual as other than their birth gender if you don't have a lot of experience with them. It seems like there is this mental inclination to go all Austin Powers, "That's a MAN, baby!" on someone if they are presenting as a woman but you can pick up cues that they are men. I don't know if this is a socialized thing, or some biological wiring that makes a person inclined to try to categorize others as 'someone I would be able to reproduce with if needed'. I do know that my personal feelings of dissonance tend to fade away the more I get to know the individual. That is my experience.

It has also been my experience that trans individuals are aware of this adjustment period, although the reaction to it is anywhere from "Eh, as long as they get there eventually" to "this is awkward and I don't like having to go through it".

But I don't naturally (my first thought when i see someone) perceive such people as women for the most part and I think it's unfair that you expect me to.  I feel as awkward with them in the female changing rooms as I would a male.  I am as guarded around them as I would be a male.  Any body parts they may have similar to mine were achieved through surgery.  Any hormone balances they have similar to the same as mine were achieved by medicine.  In some peoples views this is progressive means, in my view, it's unnatural means.  If you take yourself out of E, it's actually the view of the large majority.

Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estregen and I'm quite offended by that viewpoint.  I know that is a position that a lot of people on here take, but my right to an opinion is the same as yours.

Naturalism is an extremely difficult position to defend, in part because it usually assumes "natural = better". A transwoman or a transman is not a 'fake' woman or man... but, like everyone else, they may use props. Being a woman isn't simply about fake boobs and estrogen, and very few people understand that better than a transwoman. She is a woman, without the estrogen and without the boobs. She has the mind and heart and soul of a woman, and the fake boobs and estrogen are more about bringing her body into line with what she is - because what she is isn't what she looks like. It is, in my opinion, the ultimate celebration that women are more than their bodies.

[Star Safyre]

So it's intolerant to not be accepting of someone's intolerance of others?  It's disrespectful to disrespect someone's disrespect of others?  It's prejudice to say "I don't agree with prejudgment people"?   

Also if fake boobs or use of estrogen make someone not a "real" woman, I know plenty of ladies with two XX chromosomes who need those because of cancer treatments who will argue against you.

[Brittany]

In my experience, it can be very difficult to think of a trans individual as other than their birth gender if you don't have a lot of experience with them. It seems like there is this mental inclination to go all Austin Powers, "That's a MAN, baby!" on someone if they are presenting as a woman but you can pick up cues that they are men. I don't know if this is a socialized thing, or some biological wiring that makes a person inclined to try to categorize others as 'someone I would be able to reproduce with if needed'. I do know that my personal feelings of dissonance tend to fade away the more I get to know the individual. That is my experience.

It has also been my experience that trans individuals are aware of this adjustment period, although the reaction to it is anywhere from "Eh, as long as they get there eventually" to "this is awkward and I don't like having to go through it".

Not always.  A lot of the time they are very very politically minded and alert to prejudices that society isn't even aware of.  Take for example, I was watching one of those trashy Pawn store shows.

A female cashier is serving, and a transgender comes in.  I don't know at what stage this person was, but they were an African American, about 6 foot 3 inches tall, big muscular arms and spoke in a booming voice.  They looked like a male basketball player in a dress.

The cashier treated the person very politely, cashed through the items, then the customers card declined.  They became heated, and the customer started to shout, and generally act very masculine. 

The cashier then uttered the word "sir" in an apology, purely accidental and all hell broke loose and the customer threatened to slap her (which is different than your regular woman slapping another woman, this customer was twice her size).  Now, I'm sorry but in my opinion, if you are masculine, you argue like a man would argue, you give off the aura of a man, then you need to accept that the way people's subconcious works, perception will often rule the way they act towards you or the words they use.  This customer went on and on about the money they have spent, but for all intents and purposes, they looked and acted as you would expect a male to act and look.  His reaction was not as you described but more "how dare she, i'm taking this to the highest court in the land" and in all honesty, I find that to be as typical as the reactions you have quoted.

I can't condemn that cashier, because I would have made the exact same mistake.  Like her, I would have apologised afterwards, and I would have felt bad about it.  But people need to accept that just because they feel they were born incorrectly, they are putting people in uncomfortable situations when something like this occurs.  The best thing the customer could have done was accept her apology and move on, leaving it an embarrassing incident for the both of them.

So it's intolerant to not be accepting of someone's intolerance of others?  It's disrespectful to disrespect someone's disrespect of others?  It's prejudice to say "I don't agree with prejudgment people"?   

Not every view that disagrees with yours is intolerant or prejudgemental.  You feel it is wrong I don't feel the way you feel about a particular subject.  Yet for every reason you can give for how you feel the way you do, I can give a reason.  You may feel it is prejudgemental for me not to want to share a locker room with a transgender female.  Yet as above, not all transgender females act like women.  Your view is not open, someone like Trieste clearly disagrees with me but keeps an open mind and understands all the different viewpoints.  Your comments are as closed and as one sided as you believe mine to be.

[Trieste]

Putting aside the oddity of the phrase "argue like a man"... *slow blink*

There are ignorant individuals in every single social group - I really don't want to be painted with the same brush as the ignorant individuals in my social group so I will not do the same to others. That particular individual is not representative of a trans person and I'm not really inclined at the moment to talk about exceptions.

[Brittany]

Putting aside the oddity of the phrase "argue like a man"... *slow blink*

There are ignorant individuals in every single social group - I really don't want to be painted with the same brush as the ignorant individuals in my social group so I will not do the same to others. That particular individual is not representative of a trans person and I'm not really inclined at the moment to talk about exceptions.

My words don't come across right.  What I meant was this trans person was physically intimidating.  The cashier was a small woman.  She was being leaned over, snarled at and insulted in a way most women are not capable of, because most women are not 6'3 and built like a truck and with such a loud deep voice.  Even if a woman said the same thing with the same attitude, it's not as dangerous a situation as this cashier found herself in for uttering the wrong word.  And to me if the customer had hit her, it would have been like a man hitting a woman.  In the same way boxers are forbid from hitting another man.  This customer believed "i'm a girl, she's a girl, i'mma gonna slap this bitch".  The results would have been the same as if a male bodybuilder punched me in the face and this customer needs to not be able to do that.

I believe every trans person is representative, as I am representative of all women.  You form your opinions on the people that you meet.

[Star Safyre]

Back on topic, I actually am very curious about this.

I've two trans* friends who are homosexual, a transman and a transwoman.  My lesbian friend has had problems being accepted by potential dates.  It's devastating to her because she wants very much to be loved (who doesn't).  She has started hormonal therapy, but she doesn't have the means currently to have surgery.  Recently a woman she was interested in discovered that she doesn't have breasts and laughed in her face.  It just crushed her emotionally.  As for my gay friend, I don't know if he's had troubles.  He's fully equipped and has a boyfriend now, but I wouldn't doubt he had a bump or two on the road to being accepted.

Being bisexual myself, I don't take issue with anyone's trans* status if I were to be romantically interested.  Being attractive means more to me than someone's plumbing, but of course I can only speak for myself.

[Trieste]

I understand what you mean, but it is built on a basis that is factually wrong.

I believe every trans person is representative, as I am representative of all women.  You form your opinions on the people that you meet.

On the people you meet.

People.

If you were representative of all women - or if any one person was representative of their entire set of demographics - clinical trials would be a hell of a lot smaller and less expensive. Unfortunately for researchers (or perhaps fortunately), one person is not a representative sample. In fact, the very definition of "representative" includes the fact that it is a subset of a population, not an individual.

I anticipate that you will probably try to justify what you are saying by once more falling back on "it is my right to have an opinion", and I agree with you. However, I will also point out that what you are dealing with in this particular case is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact.

[Brittany]

I understand what you mean, but it is built on a basis that is factually wrong.

On the people you meet.

People.

If you were representative of all women - or if any one person was representative of their entire set of demographics - clinical trials would be a hell of a lot smaller and less expensive. Unfortunately for researchers (or perhaps fortunately), one person is not a representative sample. In fact, the very definition of "representative" includes the fact that it is a subset of a population, not an individual.

I anticipate that you will probably try to justify what you are saying by once more falling back on "it is my right to have an opinion", and I agree with you. However, I will also point out that what you are dealing with in this particular case is not a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact.

You are completely right.  However, what I described, I genuinely do not believe is one particular person.  When more and more people of a particular group demonstrate the same behavior (like preach open mindedness, while being smallminded), you then get a representative. 

Do you believe the person I described is the only large transgender female to use their physically imposing frame to intimidate and bully?  Do you believe the person I described is the only person who feels that accidentally referring to them as their biological gender should be punishable by law?  These are all hypothetical.  I will say, your initial comments were based on transgenders feeling uncomfortable, or feeling slightly annoyed.  I imagine this is the perspective you get from actively socialising with such.  My initial comments were based on transgenders displaying exhibitionism and acting morally superior.  This is the perspective I have gotten from where I have been and what I have seen.  You cannot say the nicer ones are more representative of the group than the others.

Anyway, I really respect your opinions and I love the way you post, but we are going off topic, and I'm starting to think I'm going to retreat from these political forums, because there is way too much sensitivity and one sided commentary going on.  Take care Trieste x

[Mithlomwen]

Anyway, I really respect your opinions and I love the way you post, but we are going off topic, and I'm starting to think I'm going to retreat from these political forums, because there is way too much sensitivity and one sided commentary going on.  Take care Trieste x

Disagreeing with your opinion does not constitute 'one sided commentary'.  You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else here, but if you post in these forums, you can also expect those opinions to be questioned, countered and discussed. 

If you are not comfortable with such, posting in the P&R boards probably isn't the best thing. 

[Brittany]

Disagreeing with your opinion does not constitute 'one sided commentary'.  You are entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else here, but if you post in these forums, you can also expect those opinions to be questioned, countered and discussed. 

If you are not comfortable with such, posting in the P&R boards probably isn't the best thing.

My experience is that I post something with well reasoned points and arguments.  Someone labels me intolerant or posts a picture of a LOLcat.  They don't argue, they don't counter, they just dismiss my posts straight off and resort to insults (trieste being the exception).  The moderators do nothing about this which seems to encourage it remaining one sided. 

People have taken the time to write private messages to me saying "i wish i could come out and say that but I don't dare".  The fact that 6 people have wrote to me, agreeing with my ideals and opinions, but refuse to speak up and leave me to be persecuted and labelled with names, to me shows that the people here don't really want their thoughts and ideals challenged.  They are happy to believe that they are righteous and everyone is ignorant and everyone who disagrees is scared off of posting.  As such, I agree, I'll go post elsewhere. 

[Mithlomwen]

My experience is that I post something with well reasoned points and arguments.  Someone labels me intolerant or posts a picture of a LOLcat.  They don't argue, they don't counter, they just dismiss my posts straight off and resort to insults (trieste being the exception).  The moderators do nothing about this which seems to encourage it remaining one sided. 

People have taken the time to write private messages to me saying "i wish i could come out and say that but I don't dare".  The fact that 6 people have wrote to me, agreeing with my ideals and opinions, but refuse to speak up and leave me to be persecuted and labelled with names, to me shows that the people here don't really want their thoughts and ideals challenged.  They are happy to believe that they are righteous and everyone is ignorant and everyone who disagrees is scared off of posting.  As such, I agree, I'll go post elsewhere.

Having well reasoned points and arguments is one thing.  Being able to back those up with facts is another thing.  If you are asked to cite an information source, or asked a direct question as to the validity of your argument and are unable to provide such, people will also have the right to rebuke your argument. 

That does not mean they think themselves righteous and everyone else ignorant.  You complain that you are being insulted, but by painting everyone in these boards with such a broad and generalized brush, are you not doing the same? 

If you do not wish to post in these boards that's fine, but you also need to leave the 'parting shots' out of your posts. 

[Brittany]

Having well reasoned points and arguments is one thing.  Being able to back those up with facts is another thing.  If you are asked to cite an information source, or asked a direct question as to the validity of your argument and are unable to provide such, people will also have the right to rebuke your argument. 

That in the main isn't what is happening.

Take for example. 

But women have suffered sexism for thousands of years.  Saying "ok we'll treat you fairly from now on" doesn't quite cut it in my opinion.  Am I sexist?  Perhaps.  But it's not irrational sexism designed to hold men down for no other reason than to exert my power or because I'm scared of what will happen if they have too much influence.  It's a dislike of the gender which has insulted and held me back all my life.

No-one asked me to provide sources or back up my argument.  Instead I was replied to with



Again, take this :

My experience in this section of the forums the last particular evenings, on topics such as feminism and transgenders leads me to believe a lot of people on E appear to believe the only real difference between males and females is whether they have a penis or not and that there is no difference between a born woman with natural breasts, and a born man with fake breasts.  That has actually been said about 4 times now by different members.  It's a liberal attitude popular with homosexuals and transgenders, but the mainstream view outside of websites such as this, tend to be along the lines that the differences run deeper than that.  I won't go into it as I've argued the differences in several threads and I'm actually tired now.

being replied to with

So it's intolerant to not be accepting of someone's intolerance of others?  It's disrespectful to disrespect someone's disrespect of others?  It's prejudice to say "I don't agree with prejudgment people"?

Which summed up simply is "your opinion is intolerant and I do not need to respect it, reply to it, argue with it or whatever.  You are wrong and I am right.

I'm sorry but if you cannot see that there is a bullying culture in these threads, with the majority of posters being as a hive mind and jumping on anyone who dares to think differently, with backing from moderators, then I feel your eyes are closed towards it.  The very fact I have six private messages from people claiming they do not dare to post in such comments, and various posts in other parts of the forum suggest people believe the same thing, is evidence of the fact.  Anyway, I apologize for any offense, my intention was to debate, but this is a very one sided and hyper sensitive area of the forums.  I believed E was essentially a roleplaying site, not a GBLTQA committee forums, and thats what it's coming across as.

[Star Safyre]

I don't wish to attack others, but it seems my words have been taken as an insult.  Your statements have been consistently sexist against males and transphobic.  You then ask to have these hateful and disrespectful opinions go unchallenged, uncommented upon, or rewarded.  I did not mean to insult you personally; I was pointing out the hypocrisy in your desires.  There are no wrong or right opinions; they're opinions and by their nature subjective.  Your anti-male and anti-trans opinions contradict your supposed desire for a equality among the genders.  Stating that one gender is more deserving than others is sexist and stating that genders are rigidly tied to biology is intolerant.  Demanding that others respect your intolerance and sexism is ironic to say the least.  That was what I meant by the quote you cite of mine.

[Mithlomwen]

 

I'm sorry but if you cannot see that there is a bullying culture in these threads, with the majority of posters being as a hive mind and jumping on anyone who dares to think differently, with backing from moderators, then I feel your eyes are closed towards it.  The very fact I have six private messages from people claiming they do not dare to post in such comments, and various posts in other parts of the forum suggest people believe the same thing, is evidence of the fact.  Anyway, I apologize for any offense, my intention was to debate, but this is a very one sided and hyper sensitive area of the forums.  I believed E was essentially a roleplaying site, not a GBLTQA committee forums, and thats what it's coming across as.

Again, this is not something that I wish to argue with you about.  If those six other people feel slighted, then they need to bring that to staff's attention.  You are once again trying to get in a parting shot at other members of this forum, and that won't be tolerated.  If you have anything else to say, you may take it to PM, not continue to insult E's membership by painting them with a broad brush. 

[Star Safyre]

I believed E was essentially a roleplaying site, not a GBLTQA committee forums, and thats what it's coming across as.

Sorry we don't only talk about straight cisgender people.  If you want to only role-play here, go role-play. 

[Brittany]

Sorry we don't only talk about straight cisgender people.  If you want to only role-play here, go role-play.

Do you mean, sorry we don't tolerate straight cisgender people? 

You disregard the rest of the post and assume "ignorant" because I am straight.  You are showing as much ignorance and intolerance to anyone who disagrees with your views as you allege I am.  And you are being allowed to get away with it, while I am being chastised.

How are my "parting shots" any worse than the ones I'm receiving?  Because you agree with them and not me?  Proves my point really.

[Star Safyre]

Um... I'm cisgendered.  Until a couple years ago, I identified as straight.  I don't assume straight people are ignorant.  Some of my best friends are straight. 

[Trieste]

Some of my best friends are straight.

This made me laugh! I don't know if you were purposefully riffing off the "I have no problem with gays, some of my best friends are gays" or not but that's what I thought of and it struck me as very funny. ::)

[Mithlomwen]

Okay....ONCE AGAIN.....I'm locking this for a bit. 

[Beguile's Mistress]

This conversation and the way it's going reminds me of something I read about the sixties.

[Braioch]

That has actually been said about 4 times now by different members. 

4 times makes a majority? Out of over a couple thousand active users?

It's a liberal attitude popular with homosexuals and transgenders, but the mainstream view outside of websites such as this, tend to be along the lines that the differences run deeper than that.  I won't go into it as I've argued the differences in several threads and I'm actually tired now.

True, the beliefs of people in the mainstream are fairly limiting and restricting and yet that is exactly why you have people who run around and try to inform other people. It's rather unfair to slam other people for not understanding sex/gender in more complex terms than the simplistic ones we're all basically raised on. That takes time, and effort on the part of people who are willing to teach.

Liberals preach tolerance and respect.  Yet approach them with a view that isn't quite the same as theirs and you are showing intolerance and prejudice.  That attitude in itself is intolerant of my views, and the views of people that agree with me (which several appear to in private messages, but none feel they dare speak out on in this section of the site, which speaks volumes to me).

First, that initial bit is another sweeping generalization.

Second, you said 'you' in reply to my statement (I'm not even talking about the rest of the posts that followed since my post) and I'm really really going to need you to specify where I've shown intolerance and prejudice, unless you meant liberals again in which you'll need to try to specify that as the meaning was unclear.

[Brittany]

The beliefs of people in the mainstream are fairly limiting and restricting.  and yet that is exactly why you have people who run around and try to inform other people. That takes time, and effort on the part of people who are willing to teach.

Second, you said 'you' in reply to my statement (I'm not even talking about the rest of the posts that followed since my post) and I'm really really going to need you to specify where I've shown intolerance and prejudice, unless you meant liberals again in which you'll need to try to specify that as the meaning was unclear.

See, this denigrates my opinion.  It is in your viewpoint wrong, of lesser value than you and needs teaching.

You refuse to see the angle, that perhaps my viewpoint, and mainstreams viewpoint is correct. 

For instance, I can name 100,000 ways in which women are different from men.  In my view, it is the "I can take a female perspective, the only difference between us is I have a penis, and my voice is just as important in a feminist movement as a females" view that is limited and needs teaching. 

Who are you to say I am wrong and you are right.  The fact that you win by a landslide in terms of support and back up on this particular battleground, doesn't make you right and me wrong.  If we took this debate to a forum with verified female members who didn't bring any topic around to lingerie (and not even mention godets, buckles and ruffles?), and fill up threads about breasts without ever touching on the weight or practicality of them, or needed to ask questions about a period that can be found on a box of tampons, the basic things women talk about all over the internet except strangely here where they don't have to prove they are female, I think my view wouldn't be in such the minority, where sexism and feminism is concerned.  The simple fact is that men have different perspectives, and it's quite clear this site is far more heavily male dominated than it advertises itself to be.

[Braioch]

Kinda glad I don't have to respond to that, that was by far one of the more insulting and condescending posts aimed at me.

So...where were we before she...err...derailed it?

[Shjade]

*walks into thread*

*sees clusterfuck in progress*

...

I've completely forgotten what I was going to add. So, instead, I'll just offer a minor point of clarification on that last exchange with Brittany - don't worry, not for purposes of continuing that line of argumentation.

Braioch, the "you" in the post of hers you quoted was referring to herself. "Liberals preach tolerance and respect.  Yet approach them with a view that isn't quite the same as theirs and you are showing intolerance and prejudice." She's the one approaching the "liberal" perspective with a different view and is then being told she's showing intolerance and prejudice. She wasn't accusing you of these things; she was saying everyone else was accusing her of them. And, to an extent, she's right. Whether or not that should be happening is a different discussion, however. Complicated issue.

[Trieste]

"You disagree with me therefore you must be lying" whaaaaaat...

[Braioch]

...the girl really needed to clarify that a wee bit.

And in any case, I wouldn't say that it's Liberals I would accuse of that, just her. Then again considering the fact I regard myself as liberal might have something to do with that.

And also, Trie, have I ever told you how much I love your sassy, zero bullshit tolerance?

[Silverfyre]

Indeed. But look at the mess your exploding heads have made!

[Braioch]

As entertaining as it is, I do prefer the other way of the blowing of one's head ::)

[Kythia]

I actually think your avatar is cheating a little Braioch.  How can anyone possibly be expected to think straight and make sane arguments with that gyrating in their face.  I keep drifting off into reveries which, to keep this non-adult I won't detail every time I read your posts.

[Trieste]

Thanks, Brai.

I do second Kythia's comments about the avatar, too. Difficult to concentrate on anything except that wiggle.

[Shjade]

And in any case, I wouldn't say that it's Liberals I would accuse of that, just her. Then again considering the fact I regard myself as liberal might have something to do with that.

But that's exactly what she just said you were doing--

Hh. Nevermind. Both sides of that particular argument clearly aren't reading or writing very clearly. Not going to try to fix it.

[Braioch]

My avi is really popular lately, I do so love the attention it's getting ;D

And as a side-note Shjade, I wasn't pointing fingers at her in that regard until that sentence you quoted me on :P

[Silverfyre]

It isn't so much the gyrating for me but that look he gives at the end.

[Braioch]

It isn't so much the gyrating for me but that look he gives at the end.

Thank you!

That's what I said, and why I chose it!

[Caeli]

And that ice cream bar. What's he gonna do with the ice cream bar? :o

[Trieste]

* Trieste hadn't noticed that he had eyes. >.>

[Braioch]

Good lord, now Caeli is getting in on it.

My Avi is the pied piper of penis lovers

[Caeli]

I will admit to being mesmerized. <3

[Silverfyre]

Well technically, I'm not a lover of the penis but I do like handsome men.  I mean, come on, that smoldering gaze, gyrating hips, that mysterious intention with the ice cream bar...

[Braioch]

I wouldn't say the intention is too mysterious, it seems solely there to add to the appeal...and my avi is still a pied piper, just one I can't specify around this hangover of mine :P

[Shjade]

I actually can dispel the mystery of the ice cream bar for you all, whether you want me to or not:

He's gyrating with it in hand, unbitten, because he hates orange creamsicles and is hoping to distract you long enough for it to melt without having to eat it.

[Star Safyre]

This thread might need a new hypothetical question: Can Braioch's avatar inspire movement on the Kinsey scale?

[Braioch]

-smirks-

I would of course, support this study.

And since it is my avatar's fault, I will bear the burden of testing any new male on male tastes our Lords may be feeling

Oh, the struggles I endure ::)

[Vekseid]

This thread might need a new hypothetical question: Can Braioch's avatar inspire movement on the Kinsey scale?

Nope, but I must say I never expected to be reminded of "I should ban animated avatars" by women getting distracted over a male avatar.

And unlike certain people who might be skeptical, I have phone numbers and seen pictures of four of the women in this thread.

Not those kinds of pictures.

Control yourselves, ladies! You can't act like that here, what sort of site do you think I'm running?! >: (

[Trieste]

If we don't, are you going to start assigning penances? ::)

[Dashenka]

Well to balance it out a bit then... I don't like him. :)

[Braioch]

It's popularity is both amusing and bemusing simultaneously o.O

[Oniya]

This thread might need a new hypothetical question: Can Braioch's avatar inspire movement on the Kinsey scale?

*provides a new distraction*  I have to admit, my position on the Kinsey scale hasn't been affected either.  ;D

[Torch]

*provides a new distraction*  I have to admit, my position on the Kinsey scale hasn't been affected either.  ;D

Brai's avatar only solidifies mine.  :P

[Oniya]

Although I am suddenly craving an orange creamsicle.

[Blitzy]

*Peers at Brai's Avatar, glances to the other ladies (and Silver) who enjoy it, and glances back to Brai.*

I just read through this thread and was going to say something smart and witty... and then you posted and I lost my whole train of thought. Oh the horror.

[Haloriel]

* Haloriel is three days late - but wanders in and totally eats Brai's ice cream.

>:)

I have literally nothing constructive to add other than - I love you all.

[Hyena Dandy]

To answer the question

I'm gay, and for me, there's sort of a 50% mark. If I'm going to be in a sexual relationship with another person, I want to be with someone at least mostly male. The mind is an important part of that, but it's not all of it. The penis is nice, but I don't consider it a dealbreaker, as long as the rest of the body looks male enough. I mean, I'd have sex with Buck Angel, if he asked.

If someone used to look like a woman, but now looks like a man, that doesn't matter to me that much. It's like being hung up on the fact that I'd be having sex with someone who used to be a child, to me.

[Caehlim]

Honestly, probably not and I wish I could answer differently.

I respect people defining themselves however they please and will always try to act as though I consider them to be the gender of their choice.

However the parts of my brain that make that determination and perceive someone as male or female are not under my voluntary control. That's a judgement I make entirely subconsciously within a mere fragment of a second.

The parts of my brain that determine attraction, don't really listen that much to the enlightened parts of my consciousness. They're plugged directly into those parts that make that judgement about gender. With attraction again it's something that happens subconsciously and outside of my control.

Now, if I perceive them as male, then it's possible. However if I perceive them instinctively as female and merely act as though I perceive them as a male to support them, then it's probably never going to happen.

I think that's a horrible answer, but it's the honest truth.

[MissMoonchild]

First I want to say that I am SO SORRY to the mods that this thread stirred up all that trouble!!!

I knew this was a delicate subject which was why I talked to a few senior members and even a mod if memory serves before posting it.

All the drama aside, I am thrilled and intrigued by those who have shared their positions. My friend and I were actually just talking about this the other day and I told him I hadn't checked the thread in a while.

Caehlim, and those of you who answered similarly, I can't really fault you. In the end it has been pointed out that it is an individual choice, and attraction is entirely relative. However, I think the conversation is interesting and the more honest people are the better. As a woman I don't expect all men to be sexually attracted to me and I have to imagine that a trans-male or trans-female would feel the same way. There's no reason to feel bad about it.

Thank you all though for being open and honest and if the convo continues then thanks to everyone else as well!

[Sethala]

Didn't notice this earlier, but I figure I may as well toss in my $0.02.

First off, I'm a straight male, pretty much as straight as they come.  I also tend to be very shy and antisocial when it comes to people I don't know (at least in real life, I'm far more comfortable with text), and mostly because of that I've yet to be in any real relationship.

Now, would I want to be in a relationship with someone that used to be a guy?  Assuming I'm talking about a full, living together, sex-filled relationship, not just platonic friendship, I'd have to say no.  However, the reason is only because I don't believe science has advanced enough yet.  The parts are similar, but it's like comparing a Ferrari to a jalopy held together with duct tape.  Sure, you can get it to look pretty nice, and you can be a pro at using duct tape to fix anything, but it's still not the real thing, and that just makes my skin crawl.  Too much to actually be interested in anything involving those bits.

If we were to go into fantasy mode however, and say that it's actually a fully-functional female body (be it magic transformation, body-swapping, downloading someone's mind into a clone, etc)... then I'd be fine with it.  Granted, it all depends on their personality (I'm not fond of overly-masculine women, for instance, no matter if they've been a woman from the start or not), but I don't attach someone's birth gender to anything if the body's right.

On the topic of personal, platonic relationships however, I'm more open.  Like I said, the only reason I'm uncomfortable with transgender is because of them not having the right bits, not because of any issues with personality.  As long as being with them doesn't preclude me from having relationships with others as well, I'm fine with it.

As an aside, I've heard the term "lesbian in a guy's body" being tossed around before, and... actually, I think that applies to me as well, to be honest.  I sometimes think the only thing stopping me from considering a change myself is the lack of sufficiently advanced technology.

[Blythe]

Caehlim Quote

Honestly, probably not and I wish I could answer differently.

I respect people defining themselves however they please and will always try to act as though I consider them to be the gender of their choice.

However the parts of my brain that make that determination and perceive someone as male or female are not under my voluntary control. That's a judgement I make entirely subconsciously within a mere fragment of a second.

The parts of my brain that determine attraction, don't really listen that much to the enlightened parts of my consciousness. They're plugged directly into those parts that make that judgement about gender. With attraction again it's something that happens subconsciously and outside of my control.

Now, if I perceive them as male, then it's possible. However if I perceive them instinctively as female and merely act as though I perceive them as a male to support them, then it's probably never going to happen.

I think that's a horrible answer, but it's the honest truth.

I think you could have worded that better by saying that you're attracted to cisgendered (biological men that are comfortable being men) homosexual men. There's nothing wrong with that answer, and it seems to fit what you were trying to say.

Also, I noticed you used "gender of their choice." Transgendered people don't exactly have a "choice" about their gender; the struggle is trying to conform our bodies to match the gender we know ourselves to be. Just saying.


On topic: I suppose I can't actually answer the exact wording of the question, being transgendered, but I can offer the perspective of the other side.

I secretly lean to others who are genderqueer in one way or another, mostly because of their understanding. I have no discomfort about whether a partner is "really" male or female, but I appreciate partners who are open about their beliefs regarding trans* issues. In return, I'm open about my status with a partner. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.  I've learned to accept this.

[Caehlim]

Edit: Open mouth, remove foot.

Apologies if I gave any offense there.