American Football Players Protesting

[Deamonbane]

Patriots fans boo players for taking a knee during the playing of the national anthem before the game against the Texans.

http://nypost.com/2017/09/24/patriots-fans-rain-boos-on-own-players-for-anthem-protest/

Like... I get it? But it still feels like a legitimate protest to me. I've had my fill of watching arguments for both sides on Facebook, even taking part myself. Not too proud, and decided I needed a break from it.

I would like to hear what folks around here think about it, though.

[WindFish]

I find it completely hypocritical that people who claim to support free speech and complain about people getting offended by everything are so offended by this. They scream oppression when a private organization cancels an event by an alt-right instigator, but cheer on Trump when he actually threatens the free speech of peaceful protesters.

Nobody should be forced to salute the flag or stand for the anthem. I fully support the players who are doing the protests and kudos to the NFL for not giving into Trump's shameful demands to fire them.

I think it's very telling that Trump calls the (predominately black) players who peacefully protest "sons of bitches" while calling white supremacists "very fine people".

[Regina Minx]

Patriots fans boo players for taking a knee during the playing of the national anthem before the game against the Texans.

I seem to remember that the same ones that booed were ready to canonize Tebow when he did it.

[Lustful Bride]

+1 to all of the above. I cant add much else but I agree. I feel people are overreacting and the players are protesting respectfully and should be respected themselves. 

[Missy]

I'm buying a Betsy Ross out of protest. Getting pissed because people don't like other peopel exercising their free speech is just bullshit.

[Darkcide]

I hate how blind patriotism is a thing here and is seen as a virtue. I also think it is funny how a lot of the people who cry about dudes taking a knee, rush to defend flying Nazi flags and Confederate flags which are actually you know, Anti-American.

[TheGlyphstone]

I seem to remember that the same ones that booed were ready to canonize Tebow when he did it.

To play devil's advocate, he was kneeling for prayer, while the current group are kneeling for protest. So at least in their minds, they are legitimately two different things even if the physical expression looks similar.

I'm impressed that the NFL as a whole is standing so solidly on this. Trump has even managed to piss off football players now.

[Oniya]

To play devil's advocate, he was kneeling for prayer, while the current group are kneeling for protest.

'Tebowing' has been going on for a lot longer than the current presidency.  *nods*  It started back when he was with the Broncos in 2011.

[Regina Minx]

To play devil's advocate, he was kneeling for prayer, while the current group are kneeling for protest.

The whole "Play the National Anthem before a sporting event" thing confuses me anyway. We don't play the anthem before theater, movies, or before enjoying marital intercourse (although if you do, I think that's great). But having decided to do it before sports, it's somehow disrespectful to kneel during the song. I'll just point out that in Game of Thrones, to 'take the knee' is the highest form of supplication and respect.

[Oniya]

The whole "Play the National Anthem before a sporting event" thing confuses me anyway.

I'm not sure which came first, but during the Olympics, they play the national anthem of the competitors as a form of respect to the athletes and as a way of identifying what teams are competing.  (I've heard 'O, Canada' played before NHL hockey games when one of the teams was Canadian.)

[Darkcide]

The whole "Play the National Anthem before a sporting event" thing confuses me anyway. We don't play the anthem before theater, movies, or before enjoying marital intercourse (although if you do, I think that's great). But having decided to do it before sports, it's somehow disrespectful to kneel during the song. I'll just point out that in Game of Thrones, to 'take the knee' is the highest form of supplication and respect.

The NFL didn't start doing it until 2009, the Government started paying the league to stage patriotic displays. The players weren't given a say in being functionally used for recruitment purposes.

[Cognitive Brainfart]

Wait, I'm really confused about this. I even read the article and I'm still confused. So the anthem was going and the players were kneeling instead of standing and that was meant to protest something? Trump, I assume? Is kneeling worse than standing when the anthem is playing? I would think kneeling is more respectful but maybe it doesn't work that way in the US.

As to people raging about it, well, they can. I mean, the players can certainly protest but at the same time, the other people can say that they disagree with it. To me getting upset about someone protesting is pretty childish, but they certainly can. As an outsider looking in, it just seems to me when either the right or left does something, the other side protests against that, then the first side protests against that protest, and then they all argue for a while. Reset, repeat :D

[Oniya]

Okay - the whole kneeling during the anthem thing started with Colin Kaepernick (I've probably botched that spelling.)  He started kneeling during the anthem in protest of the apparent lack of accountability when people of color get killed during an encounter with the police.  (There have been several threads about this, so I'm not going to go too far into that.)  These are encounters that included things as mild as traffic stops.  Other NFL players have followed suit, specifically in solidarity with Kaepernick (I'm at least going to botch it consistently.)  As protests go, I think it's a pretty decent one:  It gets attention (by doing something completely different than what others are doing), but it's not necessarily disruptive or inherently disrespectful (I can think of far worse things he could have chosen to do).

Now, Trump has recently come out and said that NFL players who take a knee when the anthem is played 'should be fired'.  As a direct result, you've now got players and owners joining in the protest - maybe not for the original reason, but to affirm that those players protesting by taking a knee have the support of their teammates in making that protest.  Almost the entire Steelers team didn't even take the field for the anthem this past weekend when they played against the Bears. 

[ReijiTabibito]

On the one hand, free country, Trump doesn't own the NFL - or a team - and can't really enforce anything beyond social shunning of people who go against what he says.  So the protest is fine.

On the other hand - and here I admit to personal bias - guys who get paid six or seven figures to do something like play a game aren't the people that I think we should be looking up to, or having kids look up to.

[Regina Minx]

There are, of course, wider implications:

[Iniquitous]

Okay - the whole kneeling during the anthem thing started with Colin Kaepernick (I've probably botched that spelling.)  He started kneeling during the anthem in protest of the apparent lack of accountability when people of color get killed during an encounter with the police.  (There have been several threads about this, so I'm not going to go too far into that.)  These are encounters that included things as mild as traffic stops.  Other NFL players have followed suit, specifically in solidarity with Kaepernick (I'm at least going to botch it consistently.)  As protests go, I think it's a pretty decent one:  It gets attention (by doing something completely different than what others are doing), but it's not necessarily disruptive or inherently disrespectful (I can think of far worse things he could have chosen to do).

Now, Trump has recently come out and said that NFL players who take a knee when the anthem is played 'should be fired'.  As a direct result, you've now got players and owners joining in the protest - maybe not for the original reason, but to affirm that those players protesting by taking a knee have the support of their teammates in making that protest.  Almost the entire Steelers team didn't even take the field for the anthem this past weekend when they played against the Bears.

Oniya - you didn't butcher Kaepernick's name :D  I had to look it up to make sure I was spelling it right when I was bashing people's heads on my facebook feed.

Secondly, the team from my hometown (Titans) and the Seahawks, PLUS the singer of the national anthem, all joined the protest.  The two teams did not come out on the field and the singer took the knee while singing the anthem.

I like to think the idiot in the oval office just bit off more than he can chew.  No, no. Don't remind me of everything else he has done. Let me have this teeny, tiny belief - at least for a week. Or until he does something else stupid.

[HannibalBarca]

I carpooled to college with three friends. Two were black, one was white.  Depending on the day of the week, we had different combinations of the four of us going to the college, which was about an hour away from the town we lived in.  From two years' driving together, I can safely say we were pulled over many times more by police when my black friends were in the car with me, than when it was just my white friend and I.  And this was California.

The players are kneeling because of the systemic racism in the legal system, including abysmal treatment of African-Americans by law enforcement.  Colin Kaepernick took a huge amount of heat as the first person to protest, but it's similar to the heat other civil rights activists took when they were the first to sit in a whites-only restaurant, for example.  Just the amount of rage expressed this Sunday by some fans is proof enough of the lack of compassion, understanding, and empathy over the situation by a lot of white people.  I really feel like a lot of them would be fine with a one-party state, regulations on what clothing can be worn, and papers required to be carried by all citizens...as long as it was their party, their clothes, and their color of skin.

Fuck that.  That's not my country, and it never has been.  Even in the worst of times in this country, when the ideal of the nation was head and shoulders above the reality, the ideal was still equality for all.  We've moved in fits and starts towards the reality becoming the ideal, and right now those who want to drag us back to the bad old days are screaming and whining for their way.  They can scream and whine all they want, because it's their right.  Too bad they can't understand that such a right extends to everyone, including those who don't look like them.

[Lustful Bride]

Fuck that.  That's not my country, and it never has been.  Even in the worst of times in this country, when the ideal of the nation was head and shoulders above the reality, the ideal was still equality for all.  We've moved in fits and starts towards the reality becoming the ideal, and right now those who want to drag us back to the bad old days are screaming and whining for their way.  They can scream and whine all they want, because it's their right.  Too bad they can't understand that such a right extends to everyone, including those who don't look like them.

Hell fucking yeah! We are one nation, one people, one America! We are all Americans before anything else and together we are what makes it great.

For some reason your last section made me feel approvingly patriotic. :P

[HannibalBarca]

https://youtu.be/otQE0GK6L3Q

Keith says it all for me.

[Oniya]

Oniya - you didn't butcher Kaepernick's name :D  I had to look it up to make sure I was spelling it right when I was bashing people's heads on my facebook feed.

Thanks for that - I was in a bit of a rush and couldn't remember if it was 'ck' or 'k'.

[Doomblade403xxx]

I live in a small rental home.

Me and my family eat well.

Have two vehicles.

Hold down a job to pay for them all.

Have four of the greatest kids ever sired by the human race.

I don't have alot of extra for anything else, but I live and survive with a practical existence that many in other countries less fortunate only dream of. Many people in Africa go to bed at night with empty bellies. Venezuela is suffering a huge political upheaval because they can't keep their people fed. You can look all over the world and see people living in squalor. Tin shacks, huts, crammed in like sardines. Many of those people have ZERO health care options. Jobs? Their job is to survive. To scavenge, scrounge, and forage to sustain their existence. They need transport? They drive their own two feet, and the really lucky ones have shoes. There are place in this world where your kids aren't even safe. In the Congo there are warlords who use sex trafficking and rape as a weapon. In India there is a village sustained by prostitution and even the children of this village are on the menu. In many places in the middle east not only do women not have a voice, but they also have no choice. Their genitals are butchered when they are young so even if they marry a man who loves them, they will never enjoy sex. In china your family is limited by the state, and these days the Chinese marriage rates are way down. In afghanistan young boys are used for sex.

After saying ALL of that I challenge anyone to show me a single country in the world where you have the same freedoms we have in the United States. It literally does not exist. Our poor? They don't have to worry about healthcare. It's provided. Their food. Provided. Phone. Provided. Hell we even have programs to pay for poor folks housing.

Now with all this said. More white makes are killed by police than black males each and every year. As a former law enforcement officer I can tell you as a fact EVERY RACE has a criminal element, and that criminal element is often violent. When caught breaking the law they don't want to be arrested, and WILL kill a police officer to escape. Now if they are willing to murder a cop to avoid jail, imagine what they will do to someone who isn't a cop. I mean if you have a few bucks in your pocket they want. You aren't an equal human being to them. You are a victim. You may get off with just being scared. They might beat you. Might even go farther than that. The police is the line. The only thing keeping malcontents in check.

Black Lives Matter is a joke. I live 60 miles from the birth of this racist movement. I can say it's racist because I saw the handout they gave the people not of color. It basically laid out their rights to protest with them. They have no voice. The movement isn't about them. They talk to no one. They aren't allowed to talk to the press. They are pushed out front when the police approach so if violence occurs they get hit first. Mike Brown robbed a store, got into a fight with a cop, tried to get his gun and got shot. Forensic evidence PROVED THIS beyond a shadow of doubt. Even the families own forensic pathologist agreed with the federal autopsy. Still a whole city burned.

Maybe I'm jaded but I feel the children getting caught in the crossfire in STL are way more important than Heroin dealers and strongarm robbers of the city. Ten days ago a black male opened up on a man in a car killing a seven year old child. Shot him right in the head. You don't even see that kid getting a passing mention from any of these groups. HIS LIFE MATTERED, but you sure as shit wouldn't know it from the way these assholes behave. They pick their martyrs from the criminal element, block traffic, swarm malls, damage property, and assault people and police with impunity. The irony is for all the people bitching about the police, without them the same people bitching and moaning would get to live the purge in real life. Neighborhoods would become shooting galleries with people settling scores and there would be lawlessness.

I personally can think of about 3 times just off the top of my head where someone got killed and they shouldn't have. Eric Garner died because of New York's draconian tax laws. There was a guy in oklahoma killed by an officer. They say he was high on PCP and was shot, but not one of the officers on scene even got a chance to try and diffuse the situation before this panicky cop fired and killed him. This Heroin dealer in STL {who I'm not going to shed a single tear for because he's a drug dealer} as an ex cop it sure looks like the cop might've dropped that gun. No DNA of the perp on it. Cops DNA on it. Yeah to any right thinking person it's pretty damning evidence that this cop went over the line. Same token it's kinda BLM's fault he walked. They made threats. They said if he wasn't convicted of first degree murder STL would pay. So the city tried and failed to get the conviction. You know why? 1st degree murder requires premeditation. In other words that cop would've had to have a PLAN to kill that man that day. The whole mess was brought about by a car chase. That is a spur of the moment thing.

So in closing the who kneeling of the NFL is just bullshit. If I owned a franchise and one of my players did that shit they would be gone so fast their head would swim. People of all colors run afoul of the law and some of them get shot and killed. It's the way of things. Sometimes mistakes are made and there are laws and penalties in place for that too. The narrative that being black is more likely to get you shot by the police is bullshit.

[Oniya]

Sandra Bland
Tamir Rice
Walter Scott

[Eikichi]

So in closing the who kneeling of the NFL is just bullshit. If I owned a franchise and one of my players did that shit they would be gone so fast their head would swim. People of all colors run afoul of the law and some of them get shot and killed. It's the way of things. Sometimes mistakes are made and there are laws and penalties in place for that too. The narrative that being black is more likely to get you shot by the police is bullshit.

It's not bullshit. It's a statistic that has existed since the emancipation proclamation. People of all colors might run afoul of the law, but certain specific colors certainly get more weighted down by the system than any others. Sometimes those mistakes that are made aren't mistakes, just corrupt cops, and those cops are given a slap on the wrist and then shuffled around from department to department until finally the heat dies down and they resurface in a new district to do the same shit all over again.

I really think you have a very biased view of black lives matter, from a point of view that you're looking at one specific group near you that you found issue with. There are a variety of groups affiliated with BLM that are protesting for various reasons. But the one largest reason that has surfaced over the last few years isn't a white on black issue, it's an issue with the level of police corruption that currently exists in our society and how that corruption tends to lead to higher levels of prejudice against black males. At the end of the day they don't have a problem with cops, they have a problem with corrupt cops.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel expressing yourself in your job is a reason to dismiss an employee, but that's your choice. The NFL made it's choice to allow the protests and support it. That was their choice as a company, they have a different view than you. Doesn't make your view, or theirs, the correct view. But from a constitutional angle, one fits more in line with the values of this country. Also, as for a country that fundamentally better than the US. I'd argue you could look up north, sure Canada has it's own issues but there plenty of argument to be made about why it could be better or more free. In the end of the day that's all personal opinion about two countries with provide freedom to it's citizens.

I'm also not sure what any of what you said has to do with the argument of this topic; which focuses on American Football players, black/white/and everything in-between, protesting the current state of the country. There's a valid point to be made that the protest could be in response to Trumps statement,s or in support of Kaepernick's original protest. But their League has given them the right to protest. If they have that right, booing those who protest, calling them unamerican, saying they should be fired for expressing their god-given rights is your right given to you by the constitution. They're simply following that same right. But at the end of the day your 'rant' had nothing to do with the players expressing their right to kneel and was just you lambasting BLM.

For everyone else;

I'd really like to know why the country suddenly thinks it's unpatriotic. As if the goverment didn't spend millions to make Nascar, NFL, and other players attend the national anthem in order to boost recruiting. This practice has only been going on for a decade, the NFL has only existed for around 60-70 years, and we're acting this like is a tradition? As if any of these practices, or the anthem, were instituted to us at the foundation of this country? Whereas the constitution, the bread and butter of this country, alots them the right to kneel and protest and yet people are outraged at a tradition that hasn't even gone past 3-4 generations? At one point in this country, before WWI, there was no pledge of Allegiance, no one was required to stand for it and everyone was still considered just as American.

[Regina Minx]

After saying ALL of that I challenge anyone to show me a single country in the world where you have the same freedoms we have in the United States...

This is a meaningless assertion unless you actually define what it means to be free. Fortunately, this is a subject extensively studied by the Fraser Institute, Germany's Liberales Institut, and the Cato Institute. They measure national feedom along a 10 point scale in the areas of freedom of speech, freedom of religion, individual economic choice, freedom of association, freedom of assembly, violence and crimes, freedom of movement, LGBT rights, and women's rights. They also consider human trafficking, sexual violence, female genital mutilation, homicide, and adoption by homosexuals.

Using those numbers, the United States isn't in the top 5. It isn't in the top 10. The US ranks 23rd. Meaning I can show you 22 other countries in the world where people are more free than in the United States, including Hong Kong, Switzerland, New Zealand, Ireland, Denmark, Australia, Canada, the United Kingdom, Finland, and the Netherlands. This is the first factual point you raised, and it's a disprovable assertion.

Now with all this said. More white makes are killed by police than black males each and every year.

And here you make your second mistake. Any time a person compares two differently sized groups and measures absolute difference instead of a per capita difference, they are lying to you with numbers. Being murdered by a police officer is a statistically low probability in anyone's daily life. And yet a meaningful comparison of using odds form of data reporting would be more insightful than a comparison of absolute numbers. And doing so would reveal that a black man is 2.6 times more likely to be killed by police than any other group.

I feel no inclination to continue based on your incorrect assertions and misuse of statistics.

[Lustful Bride]

There is some overlap here on all sides. There are many good and honorable police officers who do their duty and put themselves in danger for the sake of the community for shit pay. But there are also many corrupt scumbags who abuse and dishonor the badge, and there are cases where protecting the blue line has alienated the officers from the people they are meant to protect.

Just as on the other side we have people in the BLM movement and other groups who have legitimate grievances and have experienced injustice or abuse at the hands of the establishment. And then we also have people who use it as an excuse to be racist towards others or just to lash out and cause riots.

This isn't a case of good or evil on one side or the other. It isn't a case about truth. Absolutes only exist in fiction and in lies. We have lots of people out there, Good people, bad people. Bad-Good people, and Good-Bad people. but at the end of the day they are all people.

@DB403: Im sure you have seen a lot of things on the beat. You have seen the absolute worst of mankind, drug dealers who profit off of ruining the lives of others like a cancer on society, gang members who target civilians, murderers, rapists. There is no end to the horrors you might have seen, I don't know you, and I cant put myself in your shoes no matter how much I try. But I still do my best to understand you.

On the other end, we have to try and understand what it must feel like for people on the other end. Not the criminals, they have made their choice. Im talking about regular civilians, every day people who face prejudice from others, and sometimes face it even from those who swore an oath to protect them.

We aren't going to fix things by throwing out blame, by accusing others. That's the easy and broken way to do things. It makes us feel better but in the end it accomplishes nothing.

The only way we are going to fix society and build a more perfect union, is by working together. We will never have a perfect society. There is no such thing as utopia, but what we can do is always work to improve and remodel ourselves over and over again to become better, to adapt and survive to a changing world.

I know you were upset, and that you might be hurting. But those feelings that you have are exactly what those on the other side of the fence are or have been feeling. Your not a bad person. I can tell, you are just hurting. We are all hurting, and we are all lashing out at eachother because the pain has gotten worse in the last few years. But instead of trying to bandage one another we just keep lashing out, and its trapping us in a cycle of violence and hate. We have to break the chain both from without and from within.

And....I was going somewhere with this but im an idiot and now I don't know what I was saying.

We fix the world by working together. People on both sides have legitimate points and complaints, neither side is completely full of saints or sinners.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

[Doomblade403xxx]

There is some overlap here on all sides. There are many good and honorable police officers who do their duty and put themselves in danger for the sake of the community for shit pay. But there are also many corrupt scumbags who abuse and dishonor the badge, and there are cases where protecting the blue line has alienated the officers from the people they are meant to protect.

Just as on the other side we have people in the BLM movement and other groups who have legitimate grievances and have experienced injustice or abuse at the hands of the establishment. And then we also have people who use it as an excuse to be racist towards others or just to lash out and cause riots.

This isn't a case of good or evil on one side or the other. It isn't a case about truth. Absolutes only exist in fiction and in lies. We have lots of people out there, Good people, bad people. Bad-Good people, and Good-Bad people. but at the end of the day they are all people.

@DB403: Im sure you have seen a lot of things on the beat. You have seen the absolute worst of mankind, drug dealers who profit off of ruining the lives of others like a cancer on society, gang members who target civilians, murderers, rapists. There is no end to the horrors you might have seen, I don't know you, and I cant put myself in your shoes no matter how much I try. But I still do my best to understand you.

On the other end, we have to try and understand what it must feel like for people on the other end. Not the criminals, they have made their choice. Im talking about regular civilians, every day people who face prejudice from others, and sometimes face it even from those who swore an oath to protect them.

We aren't going to fix things by throwing out blame, by accusing others. That's the easy and broken way to do things. It makes us feel better but in the end it accomplishes nothing.

The only way we are going to fix society and build a more perfect union, is by working together. We will never have a perfect society. There is no such thing as utopia, but what we can do is always work to improve and remodel ourselves over and over again to become better, to adapt and survive to a changing world.

I know you were upset, and that you might be hurting. But those feelings that you have are exactly what those on the other side of the fence are or have been feeling. Your not a bad person. I can tell, you are just hurting. We are all hurting, and we are all lashing out at eachother because the pain has gotten worse in the last few years. But instead of trying to bandage one another we just keep lashing out, and its trapping us in a cycle of violence and hate. We have to break the chain both from without and from within.

And....I was going somewhere with this but im an idiot and now I don't know what I was saying.

We fix the world by working together. People on both sides have legitimate points and complaints, neither side is completely full of saints or sinners.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

Really? I have NEVER worked at a job, representing a company where my political or religious views were acceptable to share with the public. It's simply not done at all. When you put on that uniform, you represent the franchise and the city. This means you are a role model. You can say whatever you like on your time. When you are on mine and playing for the millions you earn in a contract, then you keep your political horseshit off the field and play ball.

Watch the turnovers...

Sandra Bland
Tamir Rice
Walter Scott

Tamir Rice as I recall had a toy gun and pointed it at police. So in a cops mind you are dealing with an armed person until you can prove otherwise. There was no orange safety shit at the end of the barrel like with most toys. So you have to defend yourself. Sorry but I'm not going to risk getting smoked. No freebie shots to prove it's fake. You turn the gun towards me, you get dropped.

Sandra Bland killed herself in her cell. Police didn't kill her. She killed herself.

Walter Scott: Murder plain and simple and the cop who did it is in the system now for it.

Oh and everything I said has to do with this topic. In this country people have it way better than everywhere else. We have freedoms no one else has. The irony is this nfl bullshit was started by a guy who made 19 million on an nfl contract. We wanna go back further. Yeah his real parents abandoned him and he was adopted by loving white parents who supported him and laid the foundations for him to live his dreams as an NFL quarterback. So for him to act like he even knows what he is talking about is absurd. He never knew what it was to be poor and living in a rough neighborhood. SEVERAL other black men up to and including Ben Carson suffered worse in their lives to be successful and have prospered.

There is some overlap here on all sides. There are many good and honorable police officers who do their duty and put themselves in danger for the sake of the community for shit pay. But there are also many corrupt scumbags who abuse and dishonor the badge, and there are cases where protecting the blue line has alienated the officers from the people they are meant to protect.

Just as on the other side we have people in the BLM movement and other groups who have legitimate grievances and have experienced injustice or abuse at the hands of the establishment. And then we also have people who use it as an excuse to be racist towards others or just to lash out and cause riots.

This isn't a case of good or evil on one side or the other. It isn't a case about truth. Absolutes only exist in fiction and in lies. We have lots of people out there, Good people, bad people. Bad-Good people, and Good-Bad people. but at the end of the day they are all people.

@DB403: Im sure you have seen a lot of things on the beat. You have seen the absolute worst of mankind, drug dealers who profit off of ruining the lives of others like a cancer on society, gang members who target civilians, murderers, rapists. There is no end to the horrors you might have seen, I don't know you, and I cant put myself in your shoes no matter how much I try. But I still do my best to understand you.

On the other end, we have to try and understand what it must feel like for people on the other end. Not the criminals, they have made their choice. Im talking about regular civilians, every day people who face prejudice from others, and sometimes face it even from those who swore an oath to protect them.

We aren't going to fix things by throwing out blame, by accusing others. That's the easy and broken way to do things. It makes us feel better but in the end it accomplishes nothing.

The only way we are going to fix society and build a more perfect union, is by working together. We will never have a perfect society. There is no such thing as utopia, but what we can do is always work to improve and remodel ourselves over and over again to become better, to adapt and survive to a changing world.

I know you were upset, and that you might be hurting. But those feelings that you have are exactly what those on the other side of the fence are or have been feeling. Your not a bad person. I can tell, you are just hurting. We are all hurting, and we are all lashing out at eachother because the pain has gotten worse in the last few years. But instead of trying to bandage one another we just keep lashing out, and its trapping us in a cycle of violence and hate. We have to break the chain both from without and from within.

And....I was going somewhere with this but im an idiot and now I don't know what I was saying.

We fix the world by working together. People on both sides have legitimate points and complaints, neither side is completely full of saints or sinners.

Spoiler: Click to Show/Hide

But you see that's the narrative. That every cop is out there looking to smoke someone of color like it's a fucking rite of passage. That is the false narrative. The false narrative Mike Browns case was built on. He never put his hands up and begged the cop not to shoot. Forensic evidence was conclusive on that. It was a fight for that cops weapon, and the felon lost. I would love to see people come together on the topic i sure would, but the fact is right this second, you can't hardly go to STL without running into one of these mobs. They block traffic, assault people, terrorize shoppers on the sidewalk and in malls, and basically make life miserable. You cannot negotiate with people when their one goal is to make everyone miserable.

[Iniquitous]

An answer to your question Eikichi.

Blind patriotism.
Racists

My father is a retired cop.  Like Doomblade403xxx above, he does not like, approve, or believe in the Black Lives Matter group.  Of course, my father is a racist and, under certain circumstances, will admit it.  He also does not believe that racism is a problem in this country and that while some black people do overcome the obstacles in their way in order to become successful, he does not believe that they start out with more obstacles than a white man does. Needless to say, I do not like having in depth conversations with my father, and am embarrassed by him.

Today, I had to block my aunt on facebook because of her blind patriotism and absolute raging at what she views to be disrespect to the US flag and national anthem.  Sure, she understands the whole 1st amendment and the fact that everyone has the -right-, but she says those who choose to kneel during the anthem are disrespecting everyone who has fought and died.  No amount of trying to talk to her would get past her blind patriotism and, in the end, I told her I love her but I was not continuing the conversation since she was not capable of hearing anything that was against her opinion and she was not going to change my opinion.

Those throwing a fit about this are either racist or suffer from blind patriotism.  They understand the 1st amendment, but they think people should only exercise their rights in a manner they above of.   These are usually people who do not want the world to change from what is comfortable to them (my mother). 

[Regina Minx]

Oh and everything I said has to do with this topic. In this country people have it way better than everywhere else. We have freedoms no one else has..

Repeating the same false, disproven assertions does not make them true. All it does it make other people suspect that you're not arguing in good faith.

[Lustful Bride]

Really? I have NEVER worked at a job, representing a company where my political or religious views were acceptable to share with the public. It's simply not done at all. When you put on that uniform, you represent the franchise and the city. This means you are a role model. You can say whatever you like on your time. When you are on mine and playing for the millions you earn in a contract, then you keep your political horseshit off the field and play ball.

But that is different. When you put on a uniform you are a representative of the law. The law cannot pick favorites, cannot know politics or race. It is only about what is Just and Right. The NFL just throw a ball around. When you put on the badge or the uniform, or hop into the fire engine. You represent something greater, the chosen few who protect those who cannot protect themselves, who fight fires and pull people out of the worst situations.

When you put on the uniform, you are the law, and as such pick no side.

I think I went overboard with the sayings. I waxed poetical way too much.

Watch the turnovers...

I don't know what that means.

But you see that's the narrative. That every cop is out there looking to smoke someone of color like it's a fucking rite of passage. That is the false narrative. The false narrative Mike Browns case was built on. He never put his hands up and begged the cop not to shoot. Forensic evidence was conclusive on that. It was a fight for that cops weapon, and the felon lost. I would love to see people come together on the topic i sure would, but the fact is right this second, you can't hardly go to STL without running into one of these mobs. They block traffic, assault people, terrorize shoppers on the sidewalk and in malls, and basically make life miserable. You cannot negotiate with people when their one goal is to make everyone miserable.

False narrative? Not every cop is an evil racist, but neither are they all saints. And you get scumbags who overstep their bounds or who fuck up and get a civilian killed or let personal prejudice get in the way of conducting the law.

They are still the exception to the rule but it does happen and it has happened enough times to warrant action. People have lost trust and faith in the police and that makes their job harder and makes things more dangerous for civilians as well. Neither side can exist without the other.

Do some people walk around (on both sides) With a chip on their shoulder? yes, and that chip leads to them acting out in situations where they could have gotten off without a problem.

But some of these people, like the police officers, have real points of discussion. The problem is that it gets bogged down by those who just use it as an excuse to act out or those who get abit too power hungry and throw their weight around unnecessarily.

I may not know what its like to be on the blue line. But my father was a soldier, firefighter, and then a DC Capitol police. I know shit gets bad and I know what its like. I have had moments where I was afraid my dad wouldn't come home. I can sympathize, but I also know form his experience that there are pieces of shit out there who dishonor the uniform and use it for the wrong reasons.

[Eikichi]

Really? I have NEVER worked at a job, representing a company where my political or religious views were acceptable to share with the public. It's simply not done at all. When you put on that uniform, you represent the franchise and the city. This means you are a role model. You can say whatever you like on your time. When you are on mine and playing for the millions you earn in a contract, then you keep your political horseshit off the field and play ball.

Obviously you've never worked at the NFL. You should check it out. They have no problem with players expressing their political views, one way or the other.

Oh and everything I said has to do with this topic. In this country people have it way better than everywhere else. We have freedoms no one else has. The irony is this nfl bullshit was started by a guy who made 19 million on an nfl contract. We wanna go back further. Yeah his real parents abandoned him and he was adopted by loving white parents who supported him and laid the foundations for him to live his dreams as an NFL quarterback. So for him to act like he even knows what he is talking about is absurd. He never knew what it was to be poor and living in a rough neighborhood. SEVERAL other black men up to and including Ben Carson suffered worse in their lives to be successful and have prospered.

I didn't realize you had to be oppressed or in some way afflicted by the system in order to point out how it's wrong or broken. Man. If only Abraham Lincoln had been black he would have better understood the lives of the black slaves and known that the slave issue was just bullshit.

See how that fallacy works?

But you see that's the narrative. That every cop is out there looking to smoke someone of color like it's a fucking rite of passage. That is the false narrative. The false narrative Mike Browns case was built on. He never put his hands up and begged the cop not to shoot. Forensic evidence was conclusive on that. It was a fight for that cops weapon, and the felon lost. I would love to see people come together on the topic i sure would, but the fact is right this second, you can't hardly go to STL without running into one of these mobs. They block traffic, assault people, terrorize shoppers on the sidewalk and in malls, and basically make life miserable. You cannot negotiate with people when their one goal is to make everyone miserable.

That's not the narrative that anyone is pushing. There are also more PEACEFUL protesters than their are transgressors. No matter how peaceful the protest you always have an extremist fraction that acts out and turns into a mob, its rare for it not to occur.

[Deamonbane]

Let's try and keep it civil here, folks.

DoomBlade403, you are making a lot of assertions that I would like to see sources for.

As for your claim that players are on 'your dime', it's an argument that I've seen a lot over the past day or so, and I can say that those players are not on your dime. You may have bought a jersey and paid to watch a game, but that money is going to the owner of the franchise, and it is on that individual's dime that these players rely on. For most of the teams that took a knee, the owners likely were involved or at least solicited for permission to do so.

Racism exists, and it isn't a recent problem, or even one that can only be found in America. In every country in which I have seen it, I have seen people who yell as you do that either it's not as big a problem as people say it is or even that it's not even there, or if it is, it's the fault of the victims themselves. And that is simply not true. Not only that, but the people who say this, even if they don't think of themselves as 'racists' and 'have a friend that is a minority so that means I'm not racist', let me tell you, racism is there. Racism is a problem. That isn't up for debate. As Iniquitous said once (I forget where) 'You are entitled to your opinions, not your facts'. And anyone who denies facts is an apologist for lies, and that's just as bad, if not worse.

[Lustful Bride]

Let's try and keep it civil here, folks.

I'm sorry. From now on I will try and be better behaved. If I feel like I cant handle it I will just opt out and stay out.

[Doomblade403xxx]

But that is different. When you put on a uniform you are a representative of the law. The law cannot pick favorites, cannot know politics or race. It is only about what is Just and Right. The NFL just throw a ball around. When you put on the badge or the uniform, or hop into the fire engine. You represent something greater, the chosen few who protect those who cannot protect themselves, who fight fires and pull people out of the worst situations.

When you put on the uniform, you are the law, and as such pick no side.

I think I went overboard with the sayings. I waxed poetical way too much.

I don't know what that means.

False narrative? Not every cop is an evil racist, but neither are they all saints. And you get scumbags who overstep their bounds or who fuck up and get a civilian killed or let personal prejudice get in the way of conducting the law.

They are still the exception to the rule but it does happen and it has happened enough times to warrant action. People have lost trust and faith in the police and that makes their job harder and makes things more dangerous for civilians as well. Neither side can exist without the other.

Do some people walk around (on both sides) With a chip on their shoulder? yes, and that chip leads to them acting out in situations where they could have gotten off without a problem.

But some of these people, like the police officers, have real points of discussion. The problem is that it gets bogged down by those who just use it as an excuse to act out or those who get abit too power hungry and throw their weight around unnecessarily.

I may not know what its like to be on the blue line. But my father was a soldier, firefighter, and then a DC Capitol police. I know shit gets bad and I know what its like. I have had moments where I was afraid my dad wouldn't come home. I can sympathize, but I also know form his experience that there are pieces of shit out there who dishonor the uniform and use it for the wrong reasons.

I have worked in other jobs aside from law enforcement. When you work someplace you represent that place. Politics and religion are things generally not allowed in any workplace. Especially when dealing with customers. NFL fans are customers. The NFL banned a memorial to fallen cops and cleats memorializing 9/11 but THIS is ok? It's absurd.

In football a fumble or an interception is a turnover. Turnovers are what often decide games. Common owner and coach preaching.

As far as bad cops, sure. There are bad employees in any profession. Bad cops weed themselves out. In my day of law enforcement things were very different. You didn't use all this talking and psychology. You came on the scene and you took over. Anyone gives lip and they hit the ground and get cuffed. That's how it was. The difference in those days an now. People...perps...respected the fact that you were stand up. That you take no shit and are firm, fair, and impartial.

You have a bad one who throws people around too much they will find the door. One way or another.

An answer to your question Eikichi.

Blind patriotism.
Racists

My father is a retired cop.  Like Doomblade403xxx above, he does not like, approve, or believe in the Black Lives Matter group.  Of course, my father is a racist and, under certain circumstances, will admit it.  He also does not believe that racism is a problem in this country and that while some black people do overcome the obstacles in their way in order to become successful, he does not believe that they start out with more obstacles than a white man does. Needless to say, I do not like having in depth conversations with my father, and am embarrassed by him.

Today, I had to block my aunt on facebook because of her blind patriotism and absolute raging at what she views to be disrespect to the US flag and national anthem.  Sure, she understands the whole 1st amendment and the fact that everyone has the -right-, but she says those who choose to kneel during the anthem are disrespecting everyone who has fought and died.  No amount of trying to talk to her would get past her blind patriotism and, in the end, I told her I love her but I was not continuing the conversation since she was not capable of hearing anything that was against her opinion and she was not going to change my opinion.

Those throwing a fit about this are either racist or suffer from blind patriotism.  They understand the 1st amendment, but they think people should only exercise their rights in a manner they above of.   These are usually people who do not want the world to change from what is comfortable to them (my mother). 

Blind patriotism? More like ANY PATRIOTISM. You see this country is what it is because of the people that came before us. If it wasn't for the people from other generations who sacrificed we wouldn't be where we are today. I stand for the pledge with my hand over my heart for those people. My father fought in both WW2 and Korea. He cried at night sometimes because men he knew died. Men and women for ages have made sacrifices so the next generation could have it better than the last, and that is why you should NEVER fail to respect the flag and the national anthem.

Since you brought up racism I have already mentioned BLM and stated my case on them. Antifa is a bunch of scumbags pushing a narrative of overt socialism and using violence to promote it. There are a million and one videos proving that on several sites. Black Panthers. Anyone who chases off white voters from polling stations with pipes could be construed as violent and racist in some circles. KKK. Well there you go. KKK is the worst racist organization in the history of racist organizations. We NEVER needed racism in this country.

One of my training officers in the police force was an old school asshole who was a racist. He threw out the slurs at people like it was a rap video. They feared him. I didn't follow that example, so I was respected. I lasted longer than him but am no longer in uniform or enforcing the law. You don't have to preach how bad some cops are. I saw it and I knew better. No reason in this world to be a dickhead. You aren't cool by being a racist. You're just a scumbag. Protip: Don't be a scumbag. It's a really simple concept that somehow got lost.

Repeating the same false, disproven assertions does not make them true. All it does it make other people suspect that you're not arguing in good faith.

Your opinion is noted

[Doomblade403xxx]

Let's try and keep it civil here, folks.

DoomBlade403, you are making a lot of assertions that I would like to see sources for.

As for your claim that players are on 'your dime', it's an argument that I've seen a lot over the past day or so, and I can say that those players are not on your dime. You may have bought a jersey and paid to watch a game, but that money is going to the owner of the franchise, and it is on that individual's dime that these players rely on. For most of the teams that took a knee, the owners likely were involved or at least solicited for permission to do so.

Racism exists, and it isn't a recent problem, or even one that can only be found in America. In every country in which I have seen it, I have seen people who yell as you do that either it's not as big a problem as people say it is or even that it's not even there, or if it is, it's the fault of the victims themselves. And that is simply not true. Not only that, but the people who say this, even if they don't think of themselves as 'racists' and 'have a friend that is a minority so that means I'm not racist', let me tell you, racism is there. Racism is a problem. That isn't up for debate. As Iniquitous said once (I forget where) 'You are entitled to your opinions, not your facts'. And anyone who denies facts is an apologist for lies, and that's just as bad, if not worse.

I prefaced that with 'If i were an owner'.

You see if I own the team they are taking my money to play a game. They piss off the fan base I lose money. I make more money if my players just play the game and leave all their personal bullshit off the field. But if the fans boycott my games, In my taxpayer built stadium and leave me with a load of empty seats, then I lose tv time. I lose merchandise money. I lose gate revenue. All while paying some over inflated ego millions to go out there week after week and piss people off with his kneeling and narratives.

You wanna end racism? Quit talking about it. Pretty damn simple. No one is a white man or a black man or whatever. We all be just people. Men and women. But you see you all have ignored one major plot point. That seven year old shot in the head and where is his march and his rights? I'll bet right this second there are some cops out there diligently striving to make an arrest in this case to get justice for that family.

But hey I'll just take my police positive hyper patriot self out of this conversation.

[Iniquitous]

Blind patriotism? More like ANY PATRIOTISM. You see this country is what it is because of the people that came before us. If it wasn't for the people from other generations who sacrificed we wouldn't be where we are today. I stand for the pledge with my hand over my heart for those people. My father fought in both WW2 and Korea. He cried at night sometimes because men he knew died. Men and women for ages have made sacrifices so the next generation could have it better than the last, and that is why you should NEVER fail to respect the flag and the national anthem.

Since you brought up racism I have already mentioned BLM and stated my case on them. Antifa is a bunch of scumbags pushing a narrative of overt socialism and using violence to promote it. There are a million and one videos proving that on several sites. Black Panthers. Anyone who chases off white voters from polling stations with pipes could be construed as violent and racist in some circles. KKK. Well there you go. KKK is the worst racist organization in the history of racist organizations. We NEVER needed racism in this country.

One of my training officers in the police force was an old school asshole who was a racist. He threw out the slurs at people like it was a rap video. They feared him. I didn't follow that example, so I was respected. I lasted longer than him but am no longer in uniform or enforcing the law. You don't have to preach how bad some cops are. I saw it and I knew better. No reason in this world to be a dickhead. You aren't cool by being a racist. You're just a scumbag. Protip: Don't be a scumbag. It's a really simple concept that somehow got lost.

Here we go again.  I support what the players and owners are doing. Am I unpatriotic?  Not at all.  I simply do not believe in blind patriotism.  I do not blindly follow or support a President.  I do not blindly follow a flag.  I do not blindly follow an anthem.  I DO support the US Constitution and believe in it.  That means I support the 1st amendment.  I will scream to the heavens and fight to the very end for everyone's right to free speech and everything that entails.  I don't have to LIKE what their free speech says, but I support it.  Others do not have to like what I say, but they should support my right to say it.

All of this bitching is done by people who think that the only free speech should be theirs and those who's opinion they agree with.  That is not the 1st amendment and I do not call those people patriotic.  Not once did anyone say you had to agree with or like what the players and coaches are doing.  Not once did anyone say you can't speak your piece about it.  Nor did anyone say that you wouldn't have people responding to your opinion - which is our right.

Here's where I currently stand.  I support them. I make it known that I support them.  No one has to like it.  Those who don't can express to me that they don't like it.  I will respond with a polite "I understand, but it is their right."  and leave it at that.  I am not going to debate this with others any longer because all it does is frustrate everyone involved because I am not going to change my mind to make those who disagree happy, and honestly, I am not going to beat my head against a wall trying to get someone else to understand that it is the right of the owners and the players so they might as well stop bitching.

With that said, I am now opting to leave this discussion for the reasons listed above.  Much love to you all!

[Deamonbane]

I prefaced that with 'If i were an owner'.

You see if I own the team they are taking my money to play a game. They piss off the fan base I lose money. I make more money if my players just play the game and leave all their personal bullshit off the field. But if the fans boycott my games, In my taxpayer built stadium and leave me with a load of empty seats, then I lose tv time. I lose merchandise money. I lose gate revenue. All while paying some over inflated ego millions to go out there week after week and piss people off with his kneeling and narratives.

You wanna end racism? Quit talking about it. Pretty damn simple. No one is a white man or a black man or whatever. We all be just people. Men and women. But you see you all have ignored one major plot point. That seven year old shot in the head and where is his march and his rights? I'll bet right this second there are some cops out there diligently striving to make an arrest in this case to get justice for that family.

But hey I'll just take my police positive hyper patriot self out of this conversation.

For one thing, if owners were to attempt to fire or even threaten to fire a player over something that is only encouraged by NFL regulations, they would be opening themselves up to the kind of lawsuits that would make what the NFL is suffering now for the health issues of its players seem like a small town cow ownership dispute. That's literally billions of dollars. I think that they can suffer a few stuck-up fans boycotting their games until this all blows over.

Another thing, but in case you haven't noticed, NFL players, and sports players in general, aren't your average employees. If your top tier players take you to court over something, they don't have to play, and if they don't play, you have a problem. Which means that the owners of the franchises are choosing the lesser loss of a few fans dropping their support by supporting their moneymakers in order to avoid losing a lot more. It's not that complicated.

And... no. I'm sorry, but your logic is really, really flawed. I think you're intentionally forgetting someone that ran over a bunch of peaceful counter-protesters, killing one and injuring dozens, so I'll leave that to your conscience, but if you think that not talking about a problem is going to solve it, you have the kind of naivete that should preclude you from public service. By your logic, if we stop talking about wars, they'll stop. If we stop talking about corruption in politics, that'll put an end to it. Hey, let's stop talking about rape to stop it. Hell, maybe we should stop talking about cancer and AIDS, see if that helps. I've heard that not talking about drug abuse has done wonders. Not talking about a problem only makes it easier to proliferate and exacerbates it. It's not a solution. It's turning a blind eye, friend of mine.

And since you would rather not provide any sources for your claims, and instead barge out when they are questioned, please don't let the door hit you on the way out. Thank you for your contribution.

[Doomblade403xxx]

Your welcome

[Eikichi]

Back onto the topic at hand.

I'm curious as to how people feel about what the Dallas Cowboys did? They kneeled before the anthem, and then stood and locked hands during the anthem. Locking hands in support was what Trump wanted, yet they are still being torn apart by conservatives. So if just kneeling, even before the anthem, is enough to garner scorn than is the argument really still about insulting soldiers and veterans? They stood, just as the president wanted. So if that was the issue, surely they wouldn't be receiving criticism, unless the fact they kneeled and supported the larger issue is what is really bothering people. At least that's how I've looked at it so far, someone else's opinion would be helpful.

[Lustful Bride]

So if just kneeling, even before the anthem, is enough to garner scorn than is the argument really still about insulting soldiers and veterans

Nope and it was never about the veterans to begin with. They are only used to get people riled up and upset but they don't really care about them. Its about the party line. :(

[Cognitive Brainfart]

Okay - the whole kneeling during the anthem thing started with Colin Kaepernick (I've probably botched that spelling.)  He started kneeling during the anthem in protest of the apparent lack of accountability when people of color get killed during an encounter with the police.  (There have been several threads about this, so I'm not going to go too far into that.)  These are encounters that included things as mild as traffic stops.  Other NFL players have followed suit, specifically in solidarity with Kaepernick (I'm at least going to botch it consistently.)  As protests go, I think it's a pretty decent one:  It gets attention (by doing something completely different than what others are doing), but it's not necessarily disruptive or inherently disrespectful (I can think of far worse things he could have chosen to do).

Now, Trump has recently come out and said that NFL players who take a knee when the anthem is played 'should be fired'.  As a direct result, you've now got players and owners joining in the protest - maybe not for the original reason, but to affirm that those players protesting by taking a knee have the support of their teammates in making that protest.  Almost the entire Steelers team didn't even take the field for the anthem this past weekend when they played against the Bears. 

Ah, thank you for explaining it! I didn't know what that was about. Now I know :)

To me, it just seems like people get butthurt about everything. Whenever someone does something, there is always a person who gets butthurt about it. It definitely sucks that it's this way but it's kind of inevitable these days, it seems. I don't hold as many grudges against Trump as most people here, but I still think this obsession with symbolic respect towards a flag or a song. It's just that, symbolic. In his position, he should focus on other stuff.

[Regina Minx]

Your opinion is noted

Not an opinion. In my first response to you, I demonstrated how your claim that "the United States has the most freedoms of any nation" is false. I also showed how you were lying by misrepresenting absolute numbers instead of assessing the situation on a per capita basis. You did not respond to either and have now called facts opinions. You're being disingenuous.

[Callie Del Noire]

Nope and it was never about the veterans to begin with. They are only used to get people riled up and upset but they don't really care about them. Its about the party line. :(

Yes, as a disabled veteran, I would personally like to be left out of this.

Do I like the action? Not really. Do I respect their right to do so? Absolutely. I’d rather have a man dissent in a peaceful manner than a thug, on either side of the political spectrum, go to a political event with the planned intent to do violence. I would join Kaepernick on the fifty yard line long before I endorse ANTIFA, the KKK or the more radical elements of BLM.
Might need him to give me a hand up afterwards. :)

I’m disappointed in the presidents words, he is our leader, not just the MAGA voters who he runs to rallies to boost his ego but all of us. Of the six presidents I’ve been able to vote for, he’s is the only one that has continually divisive. I hear things like how these men are millionaires and that means that they don’t suffer for the color of their skin or that they should use that money to do something about the issue. Just because they are protesting at lunch counters or bus seating doesn’t mean their issues don’t happen.

I discount most folks that say that for one simple reason, they are the same people who disdain other millionaires who speak up in the media on other events. ‘He’s not a politician/law enforcement officer/doctors/whatever, so he doesn’t understand’.

I’ve encountered racism personall, but for me it’s the exception not the rule. I’m white, that means unless I’m in specific parts if the country or overseas I have to go looking for it. I’ve spent more time seeing folks fuck with my airmen, petty officers and even a chief, all of color, than I have encountered it on me. I backed my guys in the first two categories and call the Officer of the Watch and backed my Chief in the latter.

When a guy laying on a bench wearing a leatherman in ripped up jeans, boots, and a cry for dawn shirt gets hassled less than the guy in slacks and a polo shirt their is something wrong. So, any athlete wants to kneel during the anthem to get a conversation started on how we can fix it, I’ll be happy to let them.  I would love to ask Colin a lot of things, and tell him that this vet is okay with his actions

Don’t tell me that this is about disrespecting me and mine, this is about something else. Leave us out of that bull shit.

Additionally: patriotism isn’t one blind set of actions, it’s standing up to something that isn’t right and saying ‘No, you move’ because it is wrong. These men are kneeling because the man who should be bring both sides to the table and hashing this out is too busy distracting us from his laziness.

[Lustful Bride]

Additionally: patriotism isn’t one blind set of actions, it’s standing up to something that isn’t right and saying ‘No, you move’ because it is wrong. These men are kneeling because the man who should be bring both sides to the table and hashing this out is too busy distracting us from his laziness.

I agree. ^_^ I also feel like what we are seeing now isn't patriotism, it has turned into Nationalism, an extreme and harmful version of it.

Patriotism: I love my country, in the good and bad times. For better or for worse.

Nationalism: I love my country because it is always good. It is never wrong, and if you disagree you are wrong!

[Callie Del Noire]

I agree. ^_^ I also feel like what we are seeing now isn't patriotism, it has turned into Nationalism, an extreme and harmful version of it.

Patriotism: I love my country, in the good and bad times. For better or for worse.

Nationalism: I love my country because it is always good. It is never wrong, and if you disagree you are wrong!

Oh dear god, I’ve never been so depressed about my country. I can’t watch the news without getting angry, I’ve had to step away from Facebook because friends I’ve known for 30+ years are saying things like revoking citizenship and deporting people who are AMERICANS and comparing them to Isis.

I need a drink and it’s not even noon.

[Cognitive Brainfart]

Leave it to Huff Post to turn everything into white supremacy. Honestly, the same as athletes should be able to kneel, they should also be able to stand if they wish to.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-athletes-still-standing-for-the-anthem-are-standing_us_59c8acbbe4b0f2df5e83afcd

[TheGlyphstone]

its weirdly paradoxically comforting to see evidence that someone on this side of the issue is  also an idiot. 'Drunkest guy at the party' situation in action, i guess.

[Deamonbane]

Snip

Thank you for your contribution. That was an enlightening read :)

Edit: I can't say I've ever taken anything the Huffington Post has posted seriously.

[Callie Del Noire]

Thank you for your contribution. That was an enlightening read :)

Edit: I can't say I've ever taken anything the Huffington Post has posted seriously.

Sorry my feeling today is that a lot of otherwise rational people I know and care about have lost their mind.. So was that genuine or sarcasm. After the three phone calls from folks I know over what I put on Facebook yesterday I honestly can’t tell anymore.

[Deamonbane]

Genuine, sorry if it felt like sarcasm. It's nice to have a word in from the folks that everyone seems to be speaking for lately.

[Callie Del Noire]

Genuine, sorry if it felt like sarcasm. It's nice to have a word in from the folks that everyone seems to be speaking for lately.

Had to ask.. my bs, sarcasm detection meters are blown and my patience and bottle of double cask are in low supply

[Sara Nilsson]

What I find interesting is, dog fighting, spousal abuse, driving under influence, murder, and wasn't one convicted of rape.. Not a peep from folks. Yeah no those are all fine.

What someone is peacefully protesting? RABBLE RABBLE BOYCOTT!

Also the whole.. disrespecting the flag. Said by people who are likely sitting at home not standing up, wearing clothes made to look like a flag, while the flag is held out in a way that is also against the rules for how the American flag is to be presented.

American flag thong? No that is patriotic and sexy. Really? A girl having to literally dig the flag out of her ass is ok but a black man kneeling is disrespectful?

And as honestly every single veteran I know have said, but I am not claiming to speak for veterans just what they told me. Nah they can kneel, we fought for their rite to do so. We didn't fight for forced patriotism. And this from one navy sailor, one marine (desert storm) and one colonel (or how it is spelled) who served two tours in Afghanistan. I think by now they are tired of me asking them ^^

As a Swede living in America I honestly don't understand this flag fetish. We don't worship the Swedish flag back home, and here.. I see it worshiped and at the same time treated so poorly. Walk around the block and many of the flags are in TERRIBLE state, torn, faded. One guy painted the flag on his fence, yeah looks nice, cept.. it is wrong. The red and white are reversed.

So all that rambling to say, I think they are perfectly in their rights to do so. Their boss hasn't said "no you can't do it" in fact many owners have joined in now. So, as long as the boss is ok with it.. why not. I hear many say.. if I did that at my job.. well their boss has said it is ok. Just because your boss doesn't like it doesn't mean all bosses.. etc.

[Oniya]

and one colonel (or how it is spelled)

Got it right.  (Dad was a lieutenant colonel, so I had to learn both words.)

[Sara Nilsson]

Thanks, that word always confuse me. It doesn't sound like it is spelled!

[la dame en noir]

"we never needed racism in this country"

America was founded on native genocide and african slavery. Then segregation.

Don't try it lol

[la dame en noir]

Yes, as a disabled veteran, I would personally like to be left out of this.

Do I like the action? Not really. Do I respect their right to do so? Absolutely. I’d rather have a man dissent in a peaceful manner than a thug, on either side of the political spectrum, go to a political event with the planned intent to do violence. I would join Kaepernick on the fifty yard line long before I endorse ANTIFA, the KKK or the more radical elements of BLM.
Might need him to give me a hand up afterwards. :)

I’m disappointed in the presidents words, he is our leader, not just the MAGA voters who he runs to rallies to boost his ego but all of us. Of the six presidents I’ve been able to vote for, he’s is the only one that has continually divisive. I hear things like how these men are millionaires and that means that they don’t suffer for the color of their skin or that they should use that money to do something about the issue. Just because they are protesting at lunch counters or bus seating doesn’t mean their issues don’t happen.

I discount most folks that say that for one simple reason, they are the same people who disdain other millionaires who speak up in the media on other events. ‘He’s not a politician/law enforcement officer/doctors/whatever, so he doesn’t understand’.

I’ve encountered racism personall, but for me it’s the exception not the rule. I’m white, that means unless I’m in specific parts if the country or overseas I have to go looking for it. I’ve spent more time seeing folks fuck with my airmen, petty officers and even a chief, all of color, than I have encountered it on me. I backed my guys in the first two categories and call the Officer of the Watch and backed my Chief in the latter.

When a guy laying on a bench wearing a leatherman in ripped up jeans, boots, and a cry for dawn shirt gets hassled less than the guy in slacks and a polo shirt their is something wrong. So, any athlete wants to kneel during the anthem to get a conversation started on how we can fix it, I’ll be happy to let them.  I would love to ask Colin a lot of things, and tell him that this vet is okay with his actions

Don’t tell me that this is about disrespecting me and mine, this is about something else. Leave us out of that bull shit.

Additionally: patriotism isn’t one blind set of actions, it’s standing up to something that isn’t right and saying ‘No, you move’ because it is wrong. These men are kneeling because the man who should be bring both sides to the table and hashing this out is too busy distracting us from his laziness.

I wish moer people would realize there are radicals in BLM and not the entire organization that is like these radicals. Thank you for using that in regards to BLM - because I am a BLM supporter.



At work, a white co-worker of mine(who has made it known that he is very conservative) has been harassing me up and down every since he has found out

1. I would kneel for the national anthem
2. I am from California.

Why is this an issue? Well, because of a few things. He thinks that by default Californians are stupid, that we aren't allowed to carry guns, that we wouldn't know how to carry guns, etc etc(I'm not sure why he so fucking obsessed with guns). When I told him he was incredibly ignorant, he told me "I'm not ignorant, I'm just telling the truth." He has insulted my intelligence on more than one occasion and has done so in front of customers. I have noticed that he likes to harass the other black women working at the store, but wouldn't dare do it to the black men working there.

As for the national anthem - I was singing it because I'm just random and strange that way and he made a dumbass remark saying "Do you kneel too? Just like those idiots?" I turned and looked at that asshole and said "It depends on how fucking angry I am." and walked away.

There is so much hostile shit thrown at me on a daily since moving to the south and so many trump supporters and bigoted assholes are bold now - but they don't seem to understand that we are not our grandparents and we will fight back.

Recently, a black man stepped in front of a protester(at Charlottesville) as an ANTIFA aggressor attacked and beat the shit out of this white supremacist for no reason. Witht he interview, this man couldn't believe that this black man saved his life and sat there reading his racist tweets and realized how fucking ridiculous he sounded.

AND Another video I saw - BLM protestors went to a Trump rally and instead of aggression, they were invited on stage to speak and at the end - it was surprising. The Trump supporters realized they had more in common with the BLM supporters than they knew. BLM does not mean ONLY BLACK PEOPLE. It rasises awareness towards the aggression towards black people in particular and that we want justice. That we want bad and corrupt cops out of the system. We are not anti-cop - we never have been. This organization even protests when white children, men, women and other groups of people are wrongly executed and targeted.

Yet, no one seems to fucking get that?

(excuse my language, I curse a lot when I'm passionate)

So, as Americans, and for all of this kneeling - we can do whatever the hell we want - its not hurting ANYONE. So many conservatives and Trump supporters boast and yell about their freedom of speech - they have tongue to get mad when NFL players use their American, human right to not stand for the national anthem.

Get over it.

Also, ANTFIA is insane!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hRM2NmZtR0

[Callie Del Noire]

Dame, there are radical elements in my moms church choir, it’s a matter of degree.

Is there legitimate cause in their actions, most often.. yes. I do wish that they would be less aggressive or pick better examples than some they tried to push as they have. However, I have worked with a lot of black men in the service that have spoken of how tired they are of something’s that happen to them.

[HannibalBarca]

A forum like this is supposed to give people the chance to air their own perspectives, so other people can see them.  Sometimes we have to wade through each others' anger at issues to get at the core of it.  Honestly, if someone is angry about something, that means we should pay more attention to what they're saying, and try to get to the core of it.

I can call myself a democratic socialist.  Pretty far left as far as most American politics would consider it, but barely left of center for Europeans.  I've never belonged to any political party.  I agree with George Washington's considerations in his farewell address--'beware the spirit of party'.  It segregates people into clans, rather than brings them together.  The very next election threw John Adams of the Federalists against one of his best friends, Thomas Jefferson of the Democratic-Republicans.  The election after that was even worse, and the representatives of the same two candidates slung mud at the other side incessantly.  Unfortunately, Adams and Jefferson remained enemies for almost 30 years after that.

And yet at the same time I call myself a democratic socialist, I reject communism.  I own guns.  I'm a teacher who has seen the horrible effects of generational welfare on families.  I'm more than a label.  It might be convenient to call me a liberal or progressive, but out of the thousands of opinions I have on a multitude of subjects, I'm sure I have more than a few that would be considered conservative.  It's the nature of the beast called humanity.

I'm a proponent of a well-rounded education.  I've found in my own quest to educate myself that, the more we know, the more likely it is that we will be understanding and empathetic towards other people who have experiences different than us.  I don't know what it's like for other people to live their lives, and I don't pretend to know.  I'm fortunate to have a family that has varying beliefs and backgrounds, and friends and acquaintances that are likewise.  I have seven service members in my family.  I also have six teachers, including myself.  Three law enforcement officers, two EMTs, a nurse, a firefighter, and a correctional officer.  There is a long history of public service on both sides of my family.  Representing our country and helping others is a tradition.

My father served twenty years in the Air Force, came near death three times in Vietnam, and is very conservative.  But he's made it very clear to me on multiple occasions that he fought so that people could disagree with him on a subject as extreme to him as flag burning.  He asked me yesterday on the phone if I'd kneel at a football game.  I told him, because of my own outlook on the flag, that I wouldn't--but I'd put my hand on the shoulder of someone who did, or link arms with them, in a show of solidarity.

What is my outlook on the flag?  That it's a symbol of not just one segment of our nation, but everyone in the nation; the good and the bad.  As far as I'm concerned, we have to take it all together.  My long love of history has shown me that this nation has never been perfect, but is supposed to be improved, and continues to be improved, often in fits and starts.  Sometimes that means workers protesting for union rights being beaten up by hired goons.  Sometimes that means women being sent to jail for protesting their lack of the right to vote.  Sometimes that means African-Americans fleeing the country because the Supreme Court said they weren't citizens.  Right now, things are not all right for everyone in this country.  People kneeling in protest over it is a fucking protected right in the Constitution.  If goddamn money is considered free speech by the Supreme Court, then kneeling down during the National Anthem at a sporting event goddamn well is.

And yeah, every organization or group in this country has good and bad apples.  Anyone who tries to put their own pet group up on a pedestal is deluding themselves.  Sure, I can feel my own dander come up when I hear someone complain about teachers and their long-ass summer vacations and their ridiculous benefits and retirement packages, and that stupid Common Core shit...but I have to remember that there are shitty teachers too.  I've worked next to some of them.  But we're not all shitty.  Neither are all cops.  Or all lawyers.  Or BLM.  Or the Republican Party.  Or the Democrats, either.  You think that, after so many millennia of social systems amongst humanity, we'd get some of these basic ideas straight.  But that damned education thing still isn't a complete or even valued thing by every individual, or society.

I think a really, really good concept to put into practice, with most social conflicts, is this: don't take them personally.  It isn't about you.  It's about us.

[Lustful Bride]

Some wise words.

[Regina Minx]

This is an op-ed by Eric Reid, Colin Kaepernick’s 49ers teammate. I r commend the whole thing, but I wanted to quote these two paragraphs …

After hours of careful consideration, and even a visit from Nate Boyer, a retired Green Beret and former N.F.L. player, we came to the conclusion that we should kneel, rather than sit, the next day during the anthem as a peaceful protest. We chose to kneel because it’s a respectful gesture. I remember thinking our posture was like a flag flown at half-mast to mark a tragedy.

It baffles me that our protest is still being misconstrued as disrespectful to the country, flag and military personnel. We chose it because it’s exactly the opposite. It has always been my understanding that the brave men and women who fought and died for our country did so to ensure that we could live in a fair and free society, which includes the right to speak out in protest.

It’s all worth reading though.

[Deamonbane]

Had to ask.. my bs, sarcasm detection meters are blown and my patience and bottle of double cask are in low supply

No worries, and I get that.

[Serephino]

The way I see it is this.  These are American citizens who are upset with the way things are in this country.  They are doing this to make a statement.  They are not destroying property, or harming anyone.  It is a peaceful protest, which is their right.  I am not a blind idiot, and I can see for myself that there is a race problem in this country.  I may not understand the full extent of it because I'm white and haven't personally experienced it, but that does not mean I can't read news stories and be pissed on their behalf.

In high school I did something similar myself.  All the way up to 10th grade the pledge of allegiance was said every morning in homeroom.  My homeroom teacher was a Vietnam Vet and told us the first day that we didn't have to say the pledge, but we better stand up and be quiet while everyone else does.  At that point I was starting  to feel like the whole thing was... I can't quite describe my feelings.  I didn't go as far as not standing, but I was not in Nazi Germany, so I refused to say it.  To this day, doesn't matter the setting, I won't say it.  I don't think I'm being disrespectful.  Having to pledge allegiance just feels wrong to me.  I won't and you can't make me.

[Lustful Bride]

In high school I did something similar myself.  All the way up to 10th grade the pledge of allegiance was said every morning in homeroom.  My homeroom teacher was a Vietnam Vet and told us the first day that we didn't have to say the pledge, but we better stand up and be quiet while everyone else does.  At that point I was starting  to feel like the whole thing was... I can't quite describe my feelings.  I didn't go as far as not standing, but I was not in Nazi Germany, so I refused to say it.  To this day, doesn't matter the setting, I won't say it.  I don't think I'm being disrespectful.  Having to pledge allegiance just feels wrong to me.  I won't and you can't make me.

I had a similar teacher. We didn't have to say the pledge of we didn't want to. But standing and being silent was required. Especially the moment of silence. As I was always taught it was a moment to honor the fallen and to honor all of those who ever suffered and struggled for freedom, justice, equal rights.

I respect your right to not say the pledge. We are all entitled to our opinions. So long as we are respectful.

[Lustful Bride]

Steven Segal throws his own lot in as well, calling the protests disgusting.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/steven-seagal-bashes-%e2%80%98disgusting%e2%80%99-nfl-protests-defends-putin-%e2%80%93-with-kremlin-in-background-video/ar-AAswkBr?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=HPCOMMDHP15

I wonder if he thinks it will make him relevant again?

[salope]

The true question is:
NFL is about entertainment - where you can relax - release your mind - eat your chickenwings - and just think about standing for your prefered team.
Is that the right place to do politics?

My relax times are when i am in a spa - and i dont want the workers there protesting about any politics topic. That would destroy the relaxing for me and all the others who come there...

[Deamonbane]

One might argue that Sports have always been a platform for politics. Playing the national anthem at the beginning of the game, having the jets soaring over the stadium at the Superbowl, etc. They are well within their rights to make a peaceful protest.

One might also argue that people that are peacefully protesting on the street are closing off roads and making it inconvenient for working people to get to and from their jobs, and therefore is that really the right place to do politics? In which case, I ask you this: What do you think is the right place to do politics?

[salope]

One might argue that Sports have always been a platform for politics. Playing the national anthem at the beginning of the game, having the jets soaring over the stadium at the Superbowl, etc. They are well within their rights to make a peaceful protest.

One might also argue that people that are peacefully protesting on the street are closing off roads and making it inconvenient for working people to get to and from their jobs, and therefore is that really the right place to do politics? In which case, I ask you this: What do you think is the right place to do politics?

Playing the national anthem at the beginning of a NFL game, having the jets soaring over the stadium at the Superbowl, etc for my opinion isnt politics but just business at usual (part of the show) no matter of the actual politics.

I would also argue there is a difference between a protest on the street and protesting at an event what just should be a good show for the ppl to watch.

And the right place is peaceful protest at your spare times - NFL players are paid entertainer who shall be good at their sports and giving the ppl who watch em (and pay for it or letting a TV station pay for it) a good show. Offending over 50% of the viewers at the stadium and in front of the TV just shouldnt be part of it.

PS - as i am not american i am neither pro nor against Trump. But as long we dont have a better system then democracy we all should respect the result of an election and tolerate the elected government - no matter if you personally like it or not.
Tolerate is based on the latin word "tolerare" what means "undergo, bear, incur - so to tolerate doesnt mean you are happy with it.

[Deamonbane]

The result of the election was never in question. Well, it was, but I'm not one given over to conspiracy theories. What the players were protesting were two things: A. The racial inequality issue in the US, as stated by Colin Kaepernick, and B. The fact that the President openly pressured the NFL team owners to fire their employees for expressing their views on that, which is illegal and to my mind, should be protested. In all fairness, most of the NFL players' protest was against being bullied by the man, but I digress.

Also, the street is a public place meant for all tax-paying citizens to be on, whether they are protesting or not.

And... yeah, playing the national anthem before the games is a rather common form of patriotic incentive, and the Jets flying over the Superbowl is sponsored by the Air Force, not unlike the film Top Gun. There are hundreds (literally) of other examples of Sports being used as a way to push for one political agenda or another, if you'd care to research for yourself. It's not a new thing.

In the end, my thought is that enforced patriotism, even if or especially if enforced by the threat of taking away your livelihood, amounts to fascism, and I think that it's worth it to protest that on any platform. As for the people that got offended, well, that's the point of social activism: To make people uncomfortable with the status quo. Those folks will just have to tolerate that like the rest have to tolerate a President that endorses and is endorsed by the KKK and Neo-Nazis. So long as it is peaceful and lawful (Which they were) have at it.

By the way, I'm not American either, but I am living in Europe with European relatives who have some very real scars from the last time that Nazis were in power. So my views may be a bit biased.

[Regina Minx]

Yeah, no. The NFL is, and always has been, political. Sports has always been political.

History lesson: Sports Broadcasting Act of 1961 specifically grants the NFL exemption from antitrust laws because of the league lobbying Congress. The NFL exists as a government-sanction monopoly without rivals or competition.

And the league has also exercised political power. Fantasy football is legal because the NFL again lobbied Congress to exempt fantasy football from laws that would have otherwise banned or regulated online gambling. The NFL has benefitted from $7 billion dollars in tax subsidies. The NFL and its teams pit city against city when they need to build a new stadium, making the citizens pay for the privilege of letting that team play there, often to the detriment of the local economy and without the business revenues promised.  The NFL has also used its influence to steer money away from federal government-sponsored studies into head trauma and chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), which is a brain disease that a lot of pro football players seem to get.

The NFL's position about playing the national anthem before games is a political decision. The view of patriotism that says wrapping yourself in the flag and that there is only one correct way to behave during a performance of a song is political. The unquestioned love of military and military symbolism is political. The millions of dollars taken by the NFL to promote the Pentagon's causes and post recruitment posters for the armed forces is political.

These players have not introduced politics into football. They're introducing THEIR politics into football. And if you're going to tolerate every single thing I mentioned above without saying a word, then this is just another aspect of that.  You need to tolerate it. Tolerate is based on the latin word "tolerare" what means "undergo, bear, incur - so to tolerate doesn't mean you are happy with it.

[salope]

By the way, I'm not American either, but I am living in Europe with European relatives who have some very real scars from the last time that Nazis were in power. So my views may be a bit biased.

ok i am out - bringing nazi stuff into that topic whats just about if its good when NFL players shall protest during their workshift or not is way too heavy (and in my opinion a punch in the face for everyone who really suffered that time) and killing every conversation.

[Deamonbane]

ok i am out - bringing nazi stuff into that topic whats just about if its good when NFL players shall protest during their workshift or not is way too heavy (and in my opinion a punch in the face for everyone who really suffered that time) and killing every conversation.

Sorry if it made you feel 'uncomfortable'. You might want to hear the opinion of the people that you are claiming offense for, before you walk away from a conversation because it got too heavy.

[Deamonbane]

I apologize for what I said, and how I said it. I'll be stepping away from these threads now.