Israel's conflict, and what it means for everyone else

[Fox Lokison]

I won't be engaging with someone who repeatedly refuses to read or address information that contradicts their point. If you wish to blame Palestinian civilians and non-combatants for, quite literally, being in the way when bombs drop, I don't think you have anything to offer. I would encourage you to look up how ethnic cleansing occurs - making land unlivable is part of it. Using a 2014 statement on a different conflict and trying to apply it now only further proves how ill informed you are. As for pinkwashing, there was a reason that was an aside, and I made it fairly clear that was an opinion from Palestinians. You'll note that they too, have openly stated Palestinian law is not better to them - but that this does not justify their existence being weaponized by the Israeli government. That is their stance. I tend to listen to the people there.

I have no patience for war crime apologia. You've ignored several sources discussing Israel firing upon civilians and striking areas where they are, knowing they were there.

And here is a poll about the best proposal of the majority of Palestinians from 2019. Sorry I cannot find hard numbers on the worst, and how many actually want genocide. Maybe we can extrapolate from how many deny the holocaust and hold anti-semetic beliefs from the ADL?

If you cannot back the claim that all Palestinians want to genocide all Israeli Jews, as well as Palestinians who support them, then you'd be better off not making hyperbolic claims. Anti-Semitic attitudes very obviously exist. No one is denying that. But once again, yet another outlandish claim about the motives of people whose deaths you've been trying to justify.

Not worth addressing or engaging with further.

[Kathadon]

LOL the statement agreed with YOU.

So who is not reading?

[Fox Lokison]

Moving forward, there's been some false videos and images passed around lately - I've seen a few on TikTok already myself. Folks have been using footage from earlier conflicts, to stoke rage on both sides.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/14/technology/israel-palestine-misinformation-lies-social-media.html

In a 28-second video, which was posted to Twitter this week by a spokesman for Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel, Palestinian militants in the Gaza Strip appeared to launch rocket attacks at Israelis from densely populated civilian areas.

At least that is what Mr. Netanyahu’s spokesman, Ofir Gendelman, said the video portrayed. But his tweet with the footage, which was shared hundreds of times as the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis escalated, was not from Gaza. It was not even from this week.

Instead, the video that he shared, which can be found on many YouTube channels and other video-hosting sites, was from 2018. And according to captions on older versions of the video, it showed militants firing rockets not from Gaza but from Syria or Libya.

The video was just one piece of misinformation that has circulated on Twitter, TikTok, Facebook, WhatsApp and other social media this week about the rising violence between Israelis and Palestinians, as Israeli military ground forces attacked Gaza early on Friday. The false information has included videos, photos and clips of text purported to be from government officials in the region, with posts baselessly claiming early this week that Israeli soldiers had invaded Gaza, or that Palestinian mobs were about to rampage through sleepy Israeli suburbs.

Arabic and Hebrew-language news sources also appeared to amplify some misinformation. Several Israeli news outlets recently discussed a video that showed a family walking to a funeral with a wrapped body, only to drop the body when a police siren sounded. The video was cited by the news organizations as evidence that Palestinian families were holding fake funerals and exaggerating the number of people killed in the conflict.

In fact, the video appeared on YouTube over a year ago and may have shown a Jordanian family holding a fake funeral, according to a caption left on the original video.

Clips of another video showing religious Jews tearing their clothing as a sign of devotion also circulated on Arabic-language news sites this week. The clips were cited as evidence that Jews were faking their own injuries in clashes in Jerusalem.

That was false. The video had been uploaded to WhatsApp and Facebook several times earlier this year, according to the Times analysis.

In recent years, Facebook has removed several disinformation campaigns by Iran aimed at stoking tensions among Israelis and Palestinians. Twitter also took down a network of fake accounts in 2019 that was used to smear opponents of Mr. Netanyahu.

The grainy video that Mr. Gendelman shared on Twitter on Wednesday, which purportedly showed Palestinian militants launching rocket attacks at Israelis, was removed on Thursday after Twitter labeled it “misleading content.” Mr. Gendelman’s office did not respond to a request for comment.

Mr. Gendelman appears to have mischaracterized the contents of other videos as well. On Tuesday, he posted a video on Twitter showing three adult men being instructed to lie down on the floor, with their bodies being arranged by a crowd nearby. Mr. Gendelman said the video showed Palestinians staging bodies for a photo opportunity.

Mr. Kovler, who traced the video back to its source, said the video had been posted in March to TikTok. Its accompanying text said the footage showed people practicing for a bomb drill.

Backtracing footage has almost become a requirement these days, I'm finding. A minor fact check isn't sufficing anymore.

[WhatLiesAbove]

I’m going to point out two VERY IMPORTANT facts here.

The rockets fired from Gaza are because of Hamas. Hamas is a terror organization that currently controls Gaza.

Israeli military attacks are not on rocket launching sites. They are on Hamas officials. These terrorists surround themselves with innocent civilians so that when they are attacked, civilians are killed. I would point out that Hamas has confirmed the deaths of a commander and other militants who were attacking Israel. I only say this not to excuse Israel, but to point out a very unfortunate part of war...civilian casualties.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/35-killed-gaza-3-israel-violence-escalates-2021-05-12/

[Deamonbane]

The way that I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the only reason that the Palestinians turned to Hamas and allowed them to control Gaza is because literally nobody else will help them, either in the region or in the international community. From their point of view, Hamas is fighting dirty because they have no other options.

So yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization with despicable tactics, but the only reason that they are in power is due to the terrorizing tactics use by the Israeli military, and the fact that said military is vastly better equipped than they are.

I generally hate the 'both sides are wrong' argument, but if Israeli attempted a diplomatic solution first, the Palestinians would feel like they have better and more peaceful alternatives to embracing a terrorist group.

Again, this opinion is based from a position of overall ignorance regarding the intricacies involved in the area, so I might be and probably am wrong.

[Skynet]

Hamas' prominence in the Palestinian Territories is actually overall recent in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Before them Fatah was the major political force, itself being the largest faction of the broader Palestinian Liberation Organization. In Gaza, Hamas took over from Fatah violently after a contested 2006 election result in Gaza.

Hamas is the de facto political ruling party of the Gaza Strip, but in the West Bank the Fatah-run Palestinian Authority rules under varying degrees of autonomy in the areas not occupied by the Israeli military.

[Kathadon]

The way that I understand it, and correct me if I'm wrong, the only reason that the Palestinians turned to Hamas and allowed them to control Gaza is because literally nobody else will help them, either in the region or in the international community. From their point of view, Hamas is fighting dirty because they have no other options.

So yes, Hamas is a terrorist organization with despicable tactics, but the only reason that they are in power is due to the terrorizing tactics use by the Israeli military, and the fact that said military is vastly better equipped than they are.

Again, this opinion is based from a position of overall ignorance regarding the intricacies involved in the area, so I might be and probably am wrong.

Fatah was the head of the Palestinian Authority (PA) in both Gaza and the West Bank. Now they just run, barely, the West Bank. When Hamas took over Gaza the area was a gang run war zone. They cleaned it up pretty fast by purging the "corrupt" (little evidence) Fatah elements, rival terrorists/freedom fighters, and criminals.

The last elections were held in 2006. I think. Which were held shortly after Israel had evacuated its settlements in Gaza. The evacuation, executed without consulting Fatah, gave Hamas' view that resistance had compelled Israel to leave Gaza credence. In a statement Hamas portrayed it as a vindication of their strategy of armed resistance. "Four years of resistance surpassed 10 years of bargaining." So they won alot of seats in Gaza from Fatah.

Hamas also controls a full 10% of all housing and real estate in Gaza. Something to do with old religious land rights held in trust. They also control 40% of the social institutions in the West Bank and Gaza. Fun Fact: Israel holds the families of suicide bombers accountable and bulldozes their homes, whereas the families of Hamas activists who have been killed or wounded during militant operations are given an initial, one-time grant varying between $500–$5,000, together with a $100 monthly allowance. In 2007 they basically fought a mini-war with Fatah and purged them from Gaza and no elections have been held since. Abbas, the current head of the PA, was trying to hold some at the beginning of the year, but Israel snubbed him because of covid supposedly. Which meant they could not hold elections in Jerusalem with all the Arab population there. Which probably would have meant Fatah would have lost. Again.

https://www.jpost.com/middle-east/mahmoud-abbas-the-biggest-loser-in-israel-gaza-escalation-analysis-668101

And yeah even the PA have cut off Hamas. They stopped funding the electricity to Gaza in 2017, but Israel let Qatar pay the bill directly to them. That way Hamas could not use the money to fund more terrorism, while keeping their people in the dark. They have been doing this ever since. The only major backers to Hamas are Iran, Turkey(?), and Saudi Arabia. And Iran dropped its financial assistance to the civilian government, restricting its funding to the military wing.

If you like reading, try From Bullets to Ballots: The Transformation of Rebel Groups into Political Parties.

[elone]

Abbas was elected in 2005 to a four year term. He is still in power. Hamas in 2006 was elected to head the government but was never recognized by Israel or the United States. They were in fact the democratically elected government.

Actually Israel runs Gaza.  They control everything there just as they do in the West Bank. They control fishing, electricity, fuel, borders, they won't allow an airport so there is no trade with other nations or visitors. The sick have to jump through hoops to get treatment.  Of course Israel does all of this in the name of security. Maybe if they would take their knee off the necks of Palestinians, then people would no longer support Hamas. Gaza has been said to be the world's largest open air prison.

Israel has no constitution, is an Apartheid nation, has no real borders.  In 1948 Israel created a nation, exiled hundreds of thousands of Palestinians then promptly took their land and destroyed their villages.  Did I forget to mention that Israel attacked a US ship, spies on the United States and has never joined in any nuclear treaties. Everything is about their security, to hell with anyone else. They act with total impunity. Anyone wonder why there is conflict?

Is it any wonder why Hamas is still in power?

[Fox Lokison]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-gaza-middle-east-israel-palestinian-conflict-7974cc0c03897b8b21e5fc2f8c7d8a79

An Israeli airstrike on Saturday targeted and destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets. Hours later, Israel bombed the home of Khalil al-Hayeh, a top leader of Gaza’s ruling militant Hamas group.

The building that was targeted also housed the offices of Qatari-run Al-Jazeera TV, as well as residential apartments. The Israeli military said Hamas was operating inside it, a standard explanation, and it accused the militant group of using journalists as human shields. But it provided no evidence to back up the claims.

Hours earlier, another Israeli air raid on a densely populated refugee camp killed at least 10 Palestinians from an extended family, mostly children, the deadliest single strike of the current conflict.

The New York-based Committee to Protect Journalists demanded Israel “provide a detailed and documented justification” for the strike.

“This latest attack on a building long known by Israel to house international media raises the specter that the Israel Defense Forces is deliberately targeting media facilities in order to disrupt coverage of the human suffering in Gaza,” the group’s executive director, Joel Simon, said in a statement.

AP's statement on the matter.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-tower-housing-ap-al-jazeera-collapses-after-missile-strike-witness-2021-05-15/

Conricus called the building a legitimate military target, saying it contained Hamas military intelligence. He said Hamas might have calculated that by placing their "assets" inside a building with news media offices in it "they probably hoped that would keep them safe from Israeli attack".

The Israeli military has said during nearly a week of intense conflict that its strikes on buildings in Gaza are aimed at hitting targets used by Hamas, the Islamist group that runs the enclave.

Hamas militants have fired more than 2,000 rockets at Israel during the latest violence. Palestinians medics say at least 140 people, including 39 children, have been killed in Gaza. Israel has reported 10 dead, including two children.

Sufficed to say, a lot of information was lost just there, as was a center for getting it to both the outside world, and people within the region. It's a bit too early to speculate on cause, as there's no information so far past "Hamas was there" but no evidence I can find thus far. It seems the Israeli government isn't keen on releasing it, and given this happened hours ago, I imagine we might be waiting a bit longer for updates.

It is a concerning strike, to be sure. Especially with so little information forthcoming.

[Fox Lokison]

Additional source I just found - apologies, adblocker was being a pain - says they were not allowed to retrieve anything.

https://www.npr.org/2021/05/15/997124491/israeli-airstrike-in-gaza-destroys-building-with-ap-bureau

A video broadcast by Al-Jazeera showed the high-rise building's owner, Jawwad Mahdi, pleading over the phone with an Israeli intelligence officer for permission to wait 10 minutes so journalists could to go inside the building to retrieve valuable equipment before it was bombed.

"All I'm asking is to let four people... to go inside and get their cameras," he said. "We respect your wishes. We will not do it if you don't allow it, but give us 10 minutes."

The officer on the other end of the phone rejected the request, at which point Mahdi says: "You have destroyed our life's work, memories, life. I will hang up. Do what you want. There is a God."

The strike on the building housing media offices came in the afternoon, after the owner received a call from the Israeli military warning that the building would be hit. A video broadcast by Al-Jazeera showed the building's owner, Jawwad Mahdi, pleading over the phone with an Israeli intelligence officer to wait 10 minutes to allow journalists to go inside the building to retrieve valuable equipment before it is bombed.

"All I'm asking is to let four people ... to go inside and get their cameras," he says. "We respect your wishes, we will not do it if you don't allow it, but give us 10 minutes." When the officer rejected the request, Mahdi said, "You have destroyed our life's work, memories, life. I will hang up, do what you want. There is a God."

Al-Jazeera, the news network funded by Qatar's government, broadcast the airstrikes live as the building collapsed.

"This channel will not be silenced. Al-Jazeera will not be silenced," an on-air anchorwoman from Al-Jazeera English said, her voice thick with emotion. "We can guarantee you that right now."

So it sounds like they had very little time to evacuate, and were given no chance to take anything but their own lives, including whatever footage or equipment they might have had. In effect - silencing them.

[Haibane]

Lets view the situation from all perspectives. If you give civilians 10 minutes to go in, that also allows Hamas 10 minutes to get out. That could be the difference between destroying critical command control equipment or hitting an empty target. There's two sides to every story.

[Fox Lokison]

No offense, Haibane, but they don't tend to issue warnings before going in to kill militants. That's a bad idea. It only gives militants time to grab hostages, and gives them a heads up on what's coming. They issue warnings for bombs because it's a slightly better option than just bombing and praying not too many civvies die, but as we've seen, it still has a high rate of killing civilians. Yes, there's two sides to every story, there's no doubt - but bombing a building to deal with "assets" is an incredibly sketchy move. Especially when the "asset" wasn't people, but a "highly technological tool" - but what? Israel refuses to explain just what was in the building, and today's attacks as a whole have killed multiple children, civilians, bombed out a road to a hospital - making the hospital incredibly inaccessible - a news building that was, effectively, one of the only non-Israeli sources able to accurately report on what's happening in Gaza, a refugee camp, and finally, a Hamas leader's home.

Slight problem. There's no confirmation he was ever in it at the time of the strike.

They refuse to explain. They make the same claims that they are targeting Hamas members, and leaders, yet they've hit targets that have no known evidence of Hamas ties, or limited evidence, and refuse to explain. There's an outcry from the US, from many major news organizations, and multiple other nations both in the vicinity and around the world.

Until we actually have evidence that there was ever a Hamas anything being run out that building, let alone one that justified total destruction of the entire building, the resources, media reporting capability, footage, and information within... We're essentially left to hope that Israel had a legitimate reason for every attack today. And the numbers of deaths speak for themselves, on that front. Even as a response to a very legitimate threat and attack on Israel, destroying the main source of reporting on the conflict, then ramping up attacks and hitting key points is a concerning thing all in its own.

If we want another perspective, maybe we should consider that bombs and rockets are not the appropriate weapons to use when civilians are in the target zones. It breaks international laws. It's inefficient. It's meant to destroy and send a message, not retrieve any useful information. And the collateral is human lives.

I'd like to hear the perspective of the parents of 41 children dead in a week, if we're talking all perspectives. Their lives were stolen because someone else decided their home was a warzone, and that bombs were the better solution.

Sources

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/16/more-deaths-gaza-israel-launches-most-intense-raids-yet

At least 149 Palestinians, including 41 children, have been killed in the Gaza Strip in the past week. Some 950 others have been wounded.

In the occupied West Bank, Israeli forces have killed at least 13 Palestinians.

At least 10 people in Israel have also been killed, with two new deaths reported on Saturday. The Israeli army said hundreds of rockets have been fired from Gaza towards various locations in Israel and they have added reinforcements near the enclave.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/media-demand-israel-explain-destruction-news-offices-77714069

In a standard Israeli response, the military said that Hamas was operating inside the building, and it accused the militant group of using journalists as human shields. But it provided no evidence to back up the claims.

Israeli military spokesman Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus claimed that Hamas used the building for a military intelligence office and weapons development. He said “a highly advanced technological tool” that the militant group used in the fighting was “within or on the building."

https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israeli-strike-gaza-kills-unrest-spreads-west-bank-77707152

Early Sunday, Israeli warplanes struck several buildings and roads in a vital part of Gaza City. Photos circulated by residents and journalists showed the airstrikes created a crater that blocked one of the main roads leading to Shifa, the largest hospital in the strip.

The Health Ministry said the latest airstrikes left at least two dead and 25 wounded, including children and women. There has been no immediate comment from the Israeli military.

On Saturday, Israel bombed the home of Khalil al-Hayeh, a senior figure in Hamas’ political branch, saying the building served as part of the group’s “terrorist infrastructure.” There was no immediate report on al-Hayeh’s fate or on any casualties.

“The campaign will continue as long as it is required,” Netanyahu said in a televised speech on Saturday evening. He alleged that Hamas military intelligence was operating inside the building. Israel routinely cites a Hamas presence as a reason for targeting certain locations in airstrikes, including residential buildings. The military also has accused the militant group of using journalists as human shields, but provided no evidence to back up the claims.

In the early hours Saturday, another airstrike hit an apartment building in Gaza City’s densely populated Shati refugee camp, killing two women and eight children.

Mohammed Hadidi told reporters that his wife and her brother’s wife had gathered at the house with their children to celebrate the Eid al-Fitr holiday ending the Islamic holy month of Ramadan. The only survivor was Hadidi’s 5-month-old son, Omar.

The blast left the children’s bedroom covered in rubble and smashed the salon. Amid the wreckage were children’s toys, a Monopoly board game and, sitting on the kitchen counter, unfinished plates of food from the holiday gathering.

“There was no warning ... You filmed people eating and then you bombed them?” a neighbor, Jamal Al-Naji, said, referring to Israel’s surveillance over the Gaza Strip.

The Israeli military did not immediately respond to a request for comment.

The bombings took place a day after U.S. diplomat Hady Amr arrived in Israel as part of Washington’s efforts to de-escalate the conflict. Israel turned down an Egyptian proposal for a one-year truce that Hamas rulers had accepted, an Egyptian intelligence official said Friday on condition of anonymity to discuss the negotiations.

Mediators from Egypt, which works closely with Israel on security issues and shares a border with the Hamas-ruled Gaza Strip, appeared to be growing alarmed. The intelligence official said Egypt hopes the U.S. intervention could halt the Israeli assault. The U.N. Security Council was set to meet Sunday.

A separate distinction: War Crimes

I've mentioned war crimes and international law a lot. Here's why. The Geneva Convention was a response to a very horrific war, and horrific decimation across Europe and Asia. It has consistently been updated, and this VERY scenario is encompassed under what's called Protocol I. The full text can be found here. I'll be quoting from the Wikipedia summary of the Protocol.

Protocol I is a 1977 amendment protocol to the Geneva Conventions relating to the protection of victims of international conflicts, where "armed conflicts in which peoples are fighting against colonial domination, alien occupation or racist regimes" are to be considered international conflicts. It reaffirms the international laws of the original Geneva Conventions of 1949, but adds clarifications and new provisions to accommodate developments in modern international warfare that have taken place since the Second World War.

Two critical points.

Articles 51 and 54 outlaw indiscriminate attacks on civilian populations, and destruction of food, water, and other materials needed for survival. Indiscriminate attacks include directly attacking civilian (non-military) targets, but also using technology such as biological weapons, nuclear weapons and land mines, whose scope of destruction cannot be limited. A total war that does not distinguish between civilian and military targets is considered a war crime.

Already broken.

Articles 56 and 53 outlaw attacks on dams, dikes, nuclear electrical-generating stations, and places of worship. The first three are "works and installations containing dangerous forces" and may be attacked only in ways that do not threaten to release the dangerous forces (i.e., it is permissible to attempt to capture them but not to try to destroy them).

Also already broken.

Nitty Gritty?

Here's an excerpt from Article 51, pertinent to the issue at hand.

4. Indiscriminate attacks are prohibited. Indiscriminate attacks are:
(a) those which are not directed at a specific military objective;
(b) those which employ a method or means of combat which cannot be directed at a specific military objective; or
(c) those which employ a method or means of combat the effects of which cannot be limited as required by this Protocol;

and consequently, in each such case, are of a nature to strike military objectives and civilians or civilian objects without distinction.

Bolding is my own.

5. Among others, the following types of attacks are to be considered as indiscriminate:
(a) an attack by bombardment by any methods or means which treats as a single military objective a number of clearly separated and distinct military objectives located in a city, town, village or other area containing a similar concentration of civilians or civilian objects;

and

(b) an attack which may be expected to cause incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians, damage to civilian objects, or a combination thereof, which would be excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated.

Bolding also my own. With no actual confirmed numbers of Hamas militants killed - Israel claims "dozens", Hamas claims about 20, neither is handing over a ton of evidence - and comparatively over a hundred dead Palestinians and close to a thousand injured... I'd say even by Israel's numbers, we're way past "excessive".

Article 54.

2. It is prohibited to attack, destroy, remove or render useless objects indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, such as food-stuffs, agricultural areas for the production of food-stuffs, crops, livestock, drinking water installations and supplies and irrigation works, for the specific purpose of denying them for their sustenance value to the civilian population or to the adverse Party, whatever the motive, whether in order to starve out civilians, to cause them to move away, or for any other motive.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20200116-gaza-farmers-israel-destroyed-all-of-our-crops/

Speaking to Al-Araby Al-Jadeed, Palestinian farmer, Mahmoud Shamali, explained: "The opening of the water dams destroyed all of our crops, our infrastructure and irrigation network."

The Palestinian Ministry of Agriculture in Gaza announced that over 950 dunams of agricultural land in the east of Gaza City were completely eradicated and that the direct losses inflicted on the farmers exceeded $500,000, but the indirect losses exceeded $2 million.

This is actually in violation of 56 and 53 as well. However, 56 should be read in full, and not summarized by me, because I literally cannot. It comes with very specific terms and conditions, and arguably, any side could use this in their favor to say appropriate measures were or were not taken. I don't feel comfortable commenting on an objective level, and since Israeli intelligence is very tight-lipped about the why and how, we don't confidently know they broke this rule. However, it is possible.

Finally, 53

Without prejudice to the provisions of the Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict of 14 May 1954, and of other relevant international instruments, it is prohibited:
(a) to commit any acts of hostility directed against the historic monuments, works of art or places of worship which constitute the cultural or spiritual heritage of peoples;
(b) to use such objects in support of the military effort;
(c) to make such objects the object of reprisals.

This is also debatable, as "reprisals" is not clarified well in the letter of the article. As such, acts such as attacking the mosque or subjecting it to the heaviest security and police violence is another open-ended question that really all depends on situation and opinions.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/7/jerusalem-dozens-of-palestinians-hurt-in-al-aqsa-clashes

During the past week, residents of Sheikh Jarrah, as well as Palestinian and international solidarity activists, have attended nightly vigils to support the Palestinian families under threat of forced displacement.

Israeli border police and forces have attacked the sit-ins using skunk water, tear gas, rubber-coated bullets and shock grenades over the past few days. Dozens of Palestinians have been arrested.

My ending point is thus. Some of these are more debatable. Others, are not. Israel has chosen bombs, over troops. Over more precise options. The convention is clear about civilian casualties, even when guerillas are using civilians as human shields. The deaths do not fall on the guerillas, according to international law, but on the attackers who killed civilians. This is also not a one-off event - Israel, like many other nations, has flouted laws and used illegal weapons, and been held to task for it for breaking the convention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_crimes#2008%E2%80%932009_Gaza_War

There were allegations of war crimes by both the Israeli military and Hamas. Criticism of Israel's conduct focused on the proportionality of its measures against Hamas, and on its alleged use of weaponised white phosphorus. Numerous reports from human right groups during the war claimed that white phosphorus shells were being used by Israel, often in or near populated areas. In its early statements the Israeli military denied using any form of white phosphorus, saying "We categorically deny the use of white phosphorus". It eventually admitted to its limited use and stopped using the shells, including as a smoke screen. The Goldstone report investigating possible war crimes in the 2009 war accepted that white phosphorus is not illegal under international law but did find that the Israelis were "systematically reckless in determining its use in build-up areas". It also called for serious consideration to be given to the banning of its use as an obscurant.

The expanded article, which was the UN Fact-Finding Mission on the Gaza Conflict, found many similar issues that are occurring today.

These are open violations. I'm not pointing out Israel's war crimes and breaking of international agreements to pin blame on that government solely. It's the fact that it's AGREED Hamas has committed war crimes, but Israel's are still being debated. They're even the same crimes. The Convention does not discriminate. It doesn't care if Hamas killed 5 Israeli children. Israel killing 5, 10, 15, or 41 Palestinian children is not the internationally accepted response. We have these rules for a reason. To prevent horrid atrocities like those our forefathers faced, and to end atrocities like the ones happening now. The justification of "well they struck first", which has openly been stated both by Israeli and Hamas leadership, as well as other commentators on the issue, does not matter to the Convention. And if we choose not to abide by it, then we just invite the rapidly escalating wars we've had in the past, where everyone's end goal is to harm as many members of the enemy group as possible.

There should be no dead children. But there will be. But the response to them should never be "we will kill yours, because you killed ours." Especially not in such disproportionate numbers. THAT is why I keep harping on the war crime thing.

[Blythe]

LOL the statement agreed with YOU.

So who is not reading?

This is unnecessary. If you feel someone isn't engaging with you, move on rather than push the thread into this type of tone, please. You aren't in trouble, but this is a reminder, given what I'm about to post, that this sort of thing generally doesn't help already tense threads like this.

[Blythe]

I'm also going to issue a general reminder here in-thread given the amount of reports this thread generated. I'd ask everyone intending to participate in this thread to read this post and keep it in mind going forward.

This is a very fraught and sensitive topic.

Bring your A-game and bring your best. I don't particularly mean 'argue your best' when I say this, though of course as most know, the standard of debate on Elliquiy is higher than on other sites.

I mean that Staff is asking everyone to treat this topic with a certain level of empathy and respect, given the casualties in the ongoing conflict.

Thank you.

[Tolvo]

Whenever I hear things such as the slaughtering of civilians as being done in the name of peace, for safety, for protection, I always get frustrated at how there is a missing part. "For the group doing the killing." And hell it doesn't even really bring them peace, safety, or protection. People are losing their lives, families are being torn apart, groups of people are being devastated. And they're just talked about like their lives mean nothing to people.

[Chulanowa]

There's also the little bitty problem of the 4th Geneva Conventions; an occupying power is obligated to not use military force against the population it occupies. They may maintain general peace and civil order utilizing police activity and legal systems (military police are allowed) but not actual military action. The reason for this is that once an occupation is declared, it by definition means that military hostility has ceased in the relevant territory. It's not Schrödinger's Battlefield, you can't be at war and in occupation at the same time and place.

And yes, this is the case even if the people begin occupied are engaged in violent resistance to occupation. Because, and this might shock some people... occupied people are always in their right to use however much force, and whatever methods they deem necessary, to try to end the occupation. There are no international laws on how and when and against whom a resistance can be conducted; it is an assumed natural right of all people under occupation.

Hamas is not a military. Nor are any other groups you might think to name. They are an organized and militant resistance movement which, by the Geneva conventions, still constitute civilians.

And yes, Gaza is still occupied. Israel controls two of its land borders directly, and controls the third by proxy (Israel has veto power over all Egyptian activities in the Sinai, from the 1979 peace treaty, including the Egypt-Palestine border). Israel controls its coast and its airspace. The lack of a ground presence by Israel is not a lack of occupation, any more than the lack of American troops on given patch of dirt in Iraq meant it wasn't also occupied.

And let's not lose sight of the fact that the occupation of Palestine is the cornerstone of all of this. That the impetus for this particular flare-up is the ethnic cleansing of Sheikh jarrah by Israel. Which is just one pebble in a whole hill of rocks just like it.

[Skynet]

Although it's an article for an ever-evolving current event, the Wikipedia article on the 2021 Israel-Palestine Crisis has some good information, both background and current, on the event.

[Skynet]

https://apnews.com/article/israel-west-bank-gaza-middle-east-israel-palestinian-conflict-7974cc0c03897b8b21e5fc2f8c7d8a79

AP's statement on the matter.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/gaza-tower-housing-ap-al-jazeera-collapses-after-missile-strike-witness-2021-05-15/

Sufficed to say, a lot of information was lost just there, as was a center for getting it to both the outside world, and people within the region. It's a bit too early to speculate on cause, as there's no information so far past "Hamas was there" but no evidence I can find thus far. It seems the Israeli government isn't keen on releasing it, and given this happened hours ago, I imagine we might be waiting a bit longer for updates.

It is a concerning strike, to be sure. Especially with so little information forthcoming.

Follow-up: The Associated Press pushes back on Israel's claim about Gaza media building, saying they had 'no indication Hamas was in the building'

[Fox Lokison]

Thank you for pointing that out, Chulanowa. To be honest, I wasn't entirely sure where Hamas and the Palestine situation falls in the issue of civilian resistance vs guerilla combatants. I erred on the side of combatants for safety - at least regarding those shooting rockets. But you bring up a good point. There's some precedent set by wars like Vietnam for these kinds of situations, I believe. I'll have to look into that.

Follow-up: The Associated Press pushes back on Israel's claim about Gaza media building, saying they had 'no indication Hamas was in the building'

I wish Israel would answer what was in said building. And why it had to be reduced to rubble instead of retrieved and dealt with.

[WhatLiesAbove]

Hamas is not a military. Nor are any other groups you might think to name. They are an organized and militant resistance movement which, by the Geneva conventions, still constitute civilians.

I wanted to make a point here. Hamas is not a military, you are correct. However, they are not a “resistance movement”. They are a terrorist organization. They are just like ISIS or Al-Qaida. It is why this whole issue is so fragile. Israel can work the the Palestinian Authority just fine. But like the U.S., the do not negotiate with terrorists.

As for why they couldn’t go in and retrieve what was in that building...speaking militarily, sending troops to one building that they believe to have enemy combatants in an EXTREMELY hostile territory would end up with a whole bunch of dead Israeli soldiers. Unlike Hamas who invites people to blow themselves up, Israel doesn’t want a bunch of dead soldiers.

[Fox Lokison]

There remains no evidence there were Hamas in the building, however, and there's other methods besides bombs. Categorically, if they feel the loss of life to their soldiers would be too high, absolutely it's fair not to send them in. But bombs are not the only other resort.

[Chulanowa]

I wanted to make a point here. Hamas is not a military, you are correct. However, they are not a “resistance movement”. They are a terrorist organization. They are just like ISIS or Al-Qaida. It is why this whole issue is so fragile. Israel can work the the Palestinian Authority just fine. But like the U.S., the do not negotiate with terrorists.

No, there is a very big distinction between them. ISIL was a bunch of foreign adventurers trying to seize territory from others in order to create a religious state. al-Qaeda is an explicitly non-national network of Salafists who conduct attacks internationally in what they see as reprisals against people and entities that offend their interpretation of Islam. They are not resistance groups.

Hamas is a militant group of Palestinians who conduct attacks against the state that occupies Palestine with the explicit goal of liberating Palestine from that occupation. They are a resistance group.

"We don't negotiate with terrorists" is kind of brainless macho posturing in general, but I suppose it makes sense enough with the first group. "Force the world to become Salafist!" is just not a reasonable or even attainable goal. But "end the occupation of our territory" is not only an eminently obtainable goal, it is in fact one required by international laws to which Israel is party.

[Haibane]

Police in London are tracing the owners of a vehicle identified in a video posted on social media yesterday which shows a person shouting anti-Semitic abuse through a megaphone while driving through St John's Wood (a north London Jewish community) in a car marked with Palestinian flags.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-57137151

Disgusting.

[Haibane]

No offense, Haibane, but they don't tend to issue warnings before going in to kill militants. That's a bad idea. It only gives militants time to grab hostages, and gives them a heads up on what's coming. They issue warnings for bombs because it's a slightly better option than just bombing and praying not too many civvies die, but as we've seen, it still has a high rate of killing civilians.

It is still a warning that gives civilians an opportunity to leave the area. I don't recall any other military offering that sort of lifeline. I am only discussing this last week's events here, and not other events in prior conflicts.

There was violent unrest inside Israel. It was an internal matter for weeks which was getting worse.

Hamas started an increased cycle of conflict by firing rockets from Gaza into Israel. That's a military assault on a sovereign state. Israel responded with the extreme force that Israel always responds with. Hamas knew this would happen. Hamas are using civilians as human shields. I see Hamas' actions as deliberately provoking Israel into killing civilians near to military targets in order to win political points.

That is evil and sick.

[Fox Lokison]

My point was, that giving such a warning also warns your targets. There is not a functional way to only warn civilians. So if the goal was to remove civilians and target Hamas, that was a bad way to go about it. That tends to be why other militaries don't get seen offering it. You're just letting militants know that you're about to invade, and they should start taking hostages. I too, am discussing the past week's events, which cost many civilian lives, even proportional to claimed Hamas deaths.

And yet again - we have no evidence Hamas was in the building or had anything in the building. So the argument of them targeting Hamas militants is kind of irrelevant when the Israeli government only says they were after a "highly technological tool" and "assets", not human beings.

States are not entitled with the right to bomb or assault civilian targets in response to their own being targeted. The response to a war crime being committed is not to commit another war crime. And I will be waiting for actual evidence of Hamas being in or at these sites before blaming them. If there is such evidence, it would be wise for Israel to release it to the international community.