WH40000 - what's your opinion?

[MiaKage]

I haven't really played since 5th edition, when there was just the organization chart, hehe. Store I used to play at shut down, so haven't really had any chances to play the latest editions.

[wander]

Detachments are exactly the same, tbh. The only new mechanic to really ponder on is the Command Points.

You start with a base of 3 Points, though specific Detachments can shift that number depending on what ones you take (woo for Battallions getting more, both my 1k-1.5kpt Death Guard list -Mortarion for 1.5k keeps my list more or less the same- and my 1500pt Custodes lists get 8 now! XD ). You use Command Points to either pay for using an army's strategems (kinda one-shot special rules that can be used when you pay the command points) or trade one in for a reroll (only one can be used that way per phase). There are other things, though those are the main uses.

FAQ has limited individual units now, to stop spam-cheese. Up to two of each at 1k or below and up to three each with 1001-2000pts. People were figuring out which units were most optimal and using nothing but them where they could... Made some lists overpowered and also made for some very vanilla and boring lists you always tended to see in competitive play. Now people are being directed to give their lists a bit more variety. You never know, there may be some imagination and people putting some of themselves in lists now... ::)

[CopperLily]

It's 'The Worf Effect'... Basically a trope where a total badass gets their ass handed to them by a threat, to job the threat and make the reader/viewer consider said threat to be more credible, that there's gonna be some actual stakes...

Trope is named as such because it happened to Worf all the goddamned time in TNG, to the point that Worf being a badass was more an informed ability than having any visual evidence to back it up.

Aka 90% of what the Sisters of Battle are used for these days.

[MiaKage]

The Sisters are finally going to get some love soon n.n

I'm super excited for it, just hope it's a proper codex, and not just plastic models

[Idej]

It's only complicated if you want to take allies. Ynarri isn't a regular army and only came in at the end of 7th and honestly, I feel they needed better playtesting as they are broken in 8th (that's not personal opinion either, lots of people claim they're broken and OP too), we'll see if this changes how they are.

Things are still the same and fairly simple. Agree to a points limit (usually 1000-2000pts), grab a HQ as your warlord, give 'em a warlord trait and a relic. Then select your units, match them up to a Detachment or two (this edition's Force Organisation charts). Total your Command Points and you're away.

The FAQ has basically trimmed down on some spam-lists and tried to fix the Ynarri.

Oh I agree whole heartedly Ynnari are stupidly broken.  They need a fix and playtesting done.  I was just saying thematically it seems weird.  That work around of what you said is viable and such. 

But I am so happy that it puts an incentive to run a more pure army or makes you get more creative and like what was mentioned, put a little bit of you in it.

Not sure what I think about the changes to psychic rules.  It ain't perfect but it does put a hold on spam alot.

[wander]

The psychic rules have been doing the rounds for a bit, now they're formally clearly written down somewhere. It doesn't help vs. Thousand Sons though. Every Rubric sergeant is a psyker for example, so you can get a shedton of them in to fire Smites and the FAQ update exempts them from the new ruling, which is really shit.

[TheLaughingOne]

... Rando vaguely related thought idea.

Rogue trader, who rather then just going around doing the standard rogue trader thing, Has his own Circus. Still does cargo and all, but its more of a side/supplement. Main attraction is the show, has been traveling around for long damn time collecting exotic wild xenos species for show, arena pit fights, and so forth. Sends runners a head to next planet telling them to round up unwanted criminals, bounties for live fighting animals in good condition, and so forth.

The big draw for this? Xenos. trader uses the clause of his Writ to bring along Xenos species, has a troupe of Eldar harlequin who occasionally do shows (which is fine as they are "Welcome" (more so then any other xenos species) on imperial planets as their shows are excellent warnings against chaos and such), Ork warriors and Kroot for arena pits, and a few other species that would be "safe" to transport. System pays a fee for them to put on the show, which isnt just one, but several, Upper hive has the eldar performances, sing, dance, their fancy shows, mock fights, ect. (eldar payment is quite transport through systems, and the ship and crew keep eyes out for soulstones, which they buy and return to eldar)

More rough and tumble arena fights are Mid-hive, cheap for upper class, expensive for lowers, in the fights criminals and such are offered "freedom" if they can win their battles... That freedom is basicly just finding out your now a part of the crew with no say in it.. maybe after winning a good few fights your given a good severance and let free at the next planet if you like. ... Cause trouble and they might let you out a little earlier, or put you on "Feeding" duty for some of the ferals... Main events are battles against ork warriors, Kroot, and maybe a captured tyranid or two (nothing significantly horrible, or if there is, maimed and cut back so its not as bad..)  (orks are either sedated and just shoved out to fight, which im sure they are fine with when comes down to it... More or less. Much the same for the Kroot)

Lowest hive levels get the freak shows, volunteer pits where they can go against critters for prizes, usually money or such. Here we have the humans (and a few mutants) of the crew, largely unaugmented but well trained, fighting, some of the more "normal" xenos animals, where you can watch a group of the local street gangs fight a giant ursine or some such in hopes of the prize, Gladiator battles are very lopsided as while the ship fighters are unaugmented, their equipment is Fully top of the line, but made to look like junk quality, fighters are top trained, like guard vets or such.

each level has like, oddities show case, reclaimed relics (broken bolters, space marine bolt shells, broken battle blades, ect, maybe even some smashed bits of armor), Xenos artifacts, or examples of human tech from past ages.

I can see a situation where imperial priest is outside the show protesting it for "tempting good men and woman to damnation by showing them Xenos filth" only to get out manuvered by barker pointing out how the show is just proof of human superiority, how the orks and kroot and others fight in their arenas for peoples entertainment, maybe even Inviting him back to bless the fighters who are getting ready to fight the xenos.

Same time while they have the Carte Blanche to do this, they still have to be careful as Ordo Xenos inquisitor is usually watching closely, just waiting for an excuse to take the trader down, or maybe works with him, the trader gets approached by people wanting to buy black market xenos goods, only to set them up and hand them over...

[Idej]

... Rando vaguely related thought idea.

Rogue trader, who rather then just going around doing the standard rogue trader thing, Has his own Circus. Still does cargo and all, but its more of a side/supplement. Main attraction is the show, has been traveling around for long damn time collecting exotic wild xenos species for show, arena pit fights, and so forth. Sends runners a head to next planet telling them to round up unwanted criminals, bounties for live fighting animals in good condition, and so forth.

The big draw for this? Xenos. trader uses the clause of his Writ to bring along Xenos species, has a troupe of Eldar harlequin who occasionally do shows (which is fine as they are "Welcome" (more so then any other xenos species) on imperial planets as their shows are excellent warnings against chaos and such), Ork warriors and Kroot for arena pits, and a few other species that would be "safe" to transport. System pays a fee for them to put on the show, which isnt just one, but several, Upper hive has the eldar performances, sing, dance, their fancy shows, mock fights, ect. (eldar payment is quite transport through systems, and the ship and crew keep eyes out for soulstones, which they buy and return to eldar)

More rough and tumble arena fights are Mid-hive, cheap for upper class, expensive for lowers, in the fights criminals and such are offered "freedom" if they can win their battles... That freedom is basicly just finding out your now a part of the crew with no say in it.. maybe after winning a good few fights your given a good severance and let free at the next planet if you like. ... Cause trouble and they might let you out a little earlier, or put you on "Feeding" duty for some of the ferals... Main events are battles against ork warriors, Kroot, and maybe a captured tyranid or two (nothing significantly horrible, or if there is, maimed and cut back so its not as bad..)  (orks are either sedated and just shoved out to fight, which im sure they are fine with when comes down to it... More or less. Much the same for the Kroot)

Lowest hive levels get the freak shows, volunteer pits where they can go against critters for prizes, usually money or such. Here we have the humans (and a few mutants) of the crew, largely unaugmented but well trained, fighting, some of the more "normal" xenos animals, where you can watch a group of the local street gangs fight a giant ursine or some such in hopes of the prize, Gladiator battles are very lopsided as while the ship fighters are unaugmented, their equipment is Fully top of the line, but made to look like junk quality, fighters are top trained, like guard vets or such.

each level has like, oddities show case, reclaimed relics (broken bolters, space marine bolt shells, broken battle blades, ect, maybe even some smashed bits of armor), Xenos artifacts, or examples of human tech from past ages.

I can see a situation where imperial priest is outside the show protesting it for "tempting good men and woman to damnation by showing them Xenos filth" only to get out manuvered by barker pointing out how the show is just proof of human superiority, how the orks and kroot and others fight in their arenas for peoples entertainment, maybe even Inviting him back to bless the fighters who are getting ready to fight the xenos.

Same time while they have the Carte Blanche to do this, they still have to be careful as Ordo Xenos inquisitor is usually watching closely, just waiting for an excuse to take the trader down, or maybe works with him, the trader gets approached by people wanting to buy black market xenos goods, only to set them up and hand them over...

You have my attention

[Idej]

The psychic rules have been doing the rounds for a bit, now they're formally clearly written down somewhere. It doesn't help vs. Thousand Sons though. Every Rubric sergeant is a psyker for example, so you can get a shedton of them in to fire Smites and the FAQ update exempts them from the new ruling, which is really shit.

Let's not forget Gray Knights get this too.

[Idej]

Your circus idea gave me the thought of having Wych be part of the fighting puts.

Really great idea there TLO.  :D

[TheLaughingOne]

It's 'The Worf Effect'... Basically a trope where a total badass gets their ass handed to them by a threat, to job the threat and make the reader/viewer consider said threat to be more credible, that there's gonna be some actual stakes...

Trope is named as such because it happened to Worf all the goddamned time in TNG, to the point that Worf being a badass was more an informed ability than having any visual evidence to back it up.

Im actually well familear with the trope, it also happens a lot with wolverine and others. Problem is they are at least shown as badasses at times, they have good moments showing how tough they are, or for round two when they are ready they completely destroy their enemy, for ravenor its more the "informed ability", we never actually get to see him be a badass, the omly thing i can think of is when he misted a guy at end of book 1, before and after that im pretty sure a 12 year old could out mind wrestle him.

Just finished book 2 and find im not quite as impressed with the ravenor series as i was eisenhorn, not to say its bad, just not quite up to par it seems... now waiting for pariah series to come out on audio.

[wander]

The lore... I can be pretty meh about. Things get bolstered and bigged up compared to what they're like on the tabletop to the nth degree and I get more fun from the battles and tabletop gaming than reading more on the setting.

Fluff is good to have, not saying I don't like or want it, just personally I enjoy the tabletopping more than the books, also I kinda get annoyed with the books etc talking everything up to the point of ridiculousness.

I prefer to just keep to the stuff in the codexes and I'm openly a fan of 1d4chan's shortening of fluff and the memes spawned. And Grimdank. ^^

[TheLaughingOne]

The lore is what got me into the game, first book i read was inquisition wars...

Yeah. a great starting point for a complete newbie. Few other stories later on, and my faves are still the dark heresy novels (pissed we will never get a finish... you'd think id be used to it with 40k, specially with inquisition war as my first book), and my favorite is Emperors Mercy, followed by the sister books (Flesh and Blood, and blood gorgons). So to me fluff is a big part of it all, and hence my frustration at how the books are dictated by each writer and nobody has thought to slap them into a coherent fucking canon without lame ass excuses..

For grimdank, i suggest the comic series, https://mr-culexus.deviantart.com/gallery/12423238/Verloren-Hoop which has some good jokes, and a truely horrifying nurgle thing in the

Pododian

Bahahaha!

What i would like to see is a team up of the Death Korps of Krieg, and the Carcharodons.

...

From outside the city.

...

Possibly off planet.

...

In another segmentum.

...

And millennium.

[Cold Heritage]

Sometimes the books go the other way and it just takes me out of it. For example, in the Grey Knights omnibus, there's a Grey Knights terminator who gets killed by some normal humans who are armed with rocks and spears. The spears were just normal wood shaft and metal tip. Not like a special metal, either. Iron or steel or something. Basically you had one of the most super specialist super soldiers ever with the bestest super special wargear . . . killed by a group of cavemen.

When I read that I sighed, put the book down, and had the words, "THIS IS WHAT GUARDS FANS ACTUALLY WANT" flash in my mind.

[TheLaughingOne]

Sometimes the books go the other way and it just takes me out of it. For example, in the Grey Knights omnibus, there's a Grey Knights terminator who gets killed by some normal humans who are armed with rocks and spears. The spears were just normal wood shaft and metal tip. Not like a special metal, either. Iron or steel or something. Basically you had one of the most super specialist super soldiers ever with the bestest super special wargear . . . killed by a group of cavemen.

When I read that I sighed, put the book down, and had the words, "THIS IS WHAT GUARDS FANS ACTUALLY WANT" flash in my mind.

Oh.... God... I remember that.... And theres not even a throw away line like the weapons are warp corrupted or such.

Its made even more funny in Legion of the Damned where on a world infected by Khornes blood rage, some 80+ human berserkers (normal humans, but its got them so bad their bodies are tearing themselves apart while fighting) swarm a single space marine scout, who as a mark of shame was forced to remove a portion of his armor to show his unscarred skin. They had knives, axes, hammer, mauls, all of that, and they just swarm him all at once and all e has is a scouts knife. Which breaks and he is left unarmed.

Few chapters later he returns to the group, badly beaten, but still alive having punched them all to death and "earned his scars".

... That said, the guy is kind of a bad ass as he gets torn in half and Survives as apoc seals the wound (you know, the missing everything below his rib cage), and continues to fight, perching up in high tower acting as sniper overwatch until daemon flyer gets him. at which point he sets off detpacks to take it out with him.

Congrats grey knights! On one of your terminators getting out done by a scout.

then again... we have the deathwing PC game, where genestealers with autoguns, bare human fists, and so forth can slap deathwing terminators to death easily....

Thankfully the guard players i know arent that bad, just wish guard would get their chance to shine proper rather then marines coming in and stealing the glory or so such. Which i can understand. let the guard be the badasses they are on occasion!

[wander]

In 8th edition that Scout would be fucking dead...

80 Cultists if you arm them with their brutal assault weapons would be throwing out 160 attacks. Simple mathhammer of 4+ WS = 80 hits, 5+ to wound = around 26-27 potential wounds. Even being generous to the Scout and saying 26 got through to be armour saved (and lets say he gets the 3+ to be nice), 8 or 9 missed saves happen on average and him getting the charge does negligible difference. Potentially he'd be able to maybe kill through them as this doesn't consider rank and file rules and if taken a few at a time he could chip through them, maybe, though even then... Pretty fucked.

Of course in the lore a Scout with an achille's heel can decimate 80 cultists and just get some manly scars from it. SMH.

Deathwing is based off Space Hulk (the tabletop game) and admittedly that used to be Genestealers vs Terminators (you don't charge into genestealers unless you know what they're doing, those claws are fucking lethal...), Genestealer cultists, it depends on the generation, though some have a vistigial arm that has a Genestealer talon on it.
Also, autoguns can pierce weakpoints on the armour (joints, sensor arrays, etc) and fists can pull at wiring, tug at weak points in the plating, etc. You need to put a lil imagination in, though not the hyperbole the books are drolling out.

Also, Militarum are pretty OP in this edition, I'd even say they're a cheese army. They can throw literally buckets of dice out there with their lasguns, they got the deepstriking plas/melta scions, a relic to get CPs back on a 5+ when they can fill the larger detachments super-easy and they get some of the best tanks going, able to afford both to mix. Also Mordians... Fuckin' Mordians... We can talk about Bullgryn BS too, though I'll leave that for another post.

[TheGlyphstone]

Did you ever see the White Dwarf article with rules for fluff accurate 'Movie Marines?' Tactical infantry were like 100 to 150 points each.

[TheLaughingOne]

... and i have given up on ravenor rogue 2 hours in.

I havent seen that vigorous of a handjob for how awesome the villian is since marvel started working on thanatos for infinity wars.

Fucking seriously? Main bad isnt a psyker, but can casually flick his wrist and magically disarm a person from several feet away, can use "the commanding tone" to stoo some of the imperiums hardest killers outside of the hewviest guard units and space marines in their tracks, AND can easily hypnotise a guy by flicking his fingers around, to the point the guy will work and act completely contrary to his own interests and safety?

Not to mention they blow the cognitea so violently they risk swallowing it whole.

People like underdog stories, butnif your gonna sell me timmy the cripple can take down godzilla im going to call you a fraud and a hack.

[wander]

Honestly, if you consider fluff as propaganda, it's more palatable. Don't take it completely as fact, rather it's exaggerated BS to make one side seem awesome.

[TheLaughingOne]

But you have stories written from all different sides. So i call that a cop out bullshit method. lazy writing, lazy editing, whatever. Even the bushleague of marvel and DC have got their crap together better.

its ridicious because its literally the worst propaganda ever if thats the case, a large portion of the stories end with the side telling losing pretty bad.

15 hours is literally about how the imperial guards life span is 15 hours, and then you tend to die horribly.
Pandorax is about how the grey knights and dark angels just barely manage to hold off a daemon invasion, but ends on the

note

that one of the original grey knights, a psyker beyond measure in current days, was captured by chaos and is now being experimented on.

Deadmen walking is about how if the death Korp of Krieg land on your planet to defend it, your screwwed.
not to mention Fire caste, and a ton of others.

Does everybody in the 40k universe tell their stories of how awesome they are from the perspective of their enemies, many of which they have no idea of whats going on or anything?

And to me it makes it even less palatable, its a complete lack of balls to have a real fucking story at risk of offending some pud thumping neckbeard and dragging things out until we really do hit 42018.

[wander]

Sounds to me you're finally getting it!  XD

In all seriousness though, you gotta understand the tabletop came first. The novels sell probably equally as well, though they themselves started off as advertising for specific factions (and often still do act in that manner) for the tabletop. Also, I never said it was 'Imperial' propaganda... ;)

For me, 40k is not a franchise of novels with a tabletop game allowing you play it's factions, it's a tabletop game with novels on the side advertising the game with hyperbolic 'This side can do this and beat up this many guys! Buy them!' BS that people take way too fuckin' seriously.

If you dig the books good for you, though I reserve the right to roll my eyes when the BS a space marine can apparently do gets listed at me when I know perfectly different on the table, where shit actually matters (YMMV, obviously).

[HairyHeretic]

Yes, but if Marines lived up to the book, you'd only need a squad of them to take on an IG army, and CSMs ought to be even more insane :)

How is GW going to convince you to buy an entire Chapter that way ;)

[TheLaughingOne]

Problem with the propaganda part is, it is still the most shit propaganda ever. Many stories are told through the characters perspective, and makes it clear how out classed they are, jow doomed they are, and how they and their companions die, imperial honor, 15 hours, dead men walking as examples, not to mention a couple others.

They lose bad, and its told via imperial perspective, and the good wins they do have arent toned down to fit propaganda. Does chaos regularly tell of how inquisitor so and so killed off several chapions of chaos, banished several daemons, and his fleet annihilated half the chaos fleet? Granted, he technically lost by setting odf a world destroying device to deny it from chaos, destroyed a hive world, and likely leave the rest of the system fucked.

Claiming its propaganda is the lamest weakest excuse to try unless you really are going to write it as propaganda. Otherwise you look like a complete tard. The only propaganda there is calling it propaganda to try and make up for poor writing. ... save the books which Really are for propaganda in universe.

And whike tabletop came first, id put it never would have got anywhere without the novels, comics, or other things that give a taste of things eithout having to drop almost 200 dollars for the barest of starting armies. If thwt fluff didnt get out there with novels why would anybody spend that much? At the same time, if not backed by the game i dont think novels would have persisted as well either. Game without novels, way to expensive to get into without any sort of gateway, novels without games, an ok series but to incoharent to really bother with when theres better out there.

And agreed one space marine bullshit in novels. Ive seen both sides, like you said, grey knights vs, cavemen, and the otherside, my example of scout vs a ton of berserk civilians (granted, they ere armed with kitchen knives, woodsmen axes, and wooden clubs, and were your basic civilian who did moderate physical labor. So while a challenge, i woukdnt put them on cultist fighting level.)



Subject change:

Now bored and making dark heresy character. Garden world tech priest. All stats rolled in order.
22 weapon skill.
23 ballistic.
38 strength,
20 toughness,
31 agility
40 intelligence
37 perception
35 willpower
45 FELLOWSHIP

Medic build.

"Good news friend! I have managed to recover 85.3817391% of your arm! Unfortinately, the missing 14.6182609% is the area that attached to your shoulder. But in more good news i beleive i can aquire the materials to replace the joint with an augmentic construct that could improve your arms function by a whole 4 percent! If the quartermaster is agreeable i may even be able to fit the joint with a rechargable lasdigi weapon!"

And with the low ballistic skill, i see them handling firearms much like cyril in archer..

"Cool!" BANG AAAHH!!! Someone shot me in the fucking foot!!!

[Rad]

I think wander has the right of it. It's a tabletop game first with fluff built around it. What's unfortunate is when the fluff becomes completely disjointed from the realities of the tabletop - or, even worse, from the rest of the fluff.

But that's just the nature of the beast, GW's franchises are too big. You've got dozens of monkeys at typewriters spewing out all sorts of malarkey. And somewhere in there, you might find some genuinely good stuff. For instance, I really enjoyed Abnett's "Horus Rising", started reading the second book and just put it down after less than 20 pages, it was horrendous.

But yeah, TLO might be right. With this Behemoth of a franchise and its lore, it may be hard to move the story forward. But I turn back to the Ynnari, that seems to be something new and progressing. In one of these novels, Ynnead will be revealed as either a mad Eldar god that'll make Khaine go "Whoa, buddy" or an aspect of Slaanesh, just you wait.



As for the tech priest medic, based on my previous interactions with tech priests, I'd be quite wary of letting your character anywhere near mine.

[TheLaughingOne]

Agreed. I tried to say that more in my little rant.. But kinda got lost in the frothing and babbling..
Thats why i like the idea of a "Master Canon" or at least, something going on about what can and cant happen, at least in
"A space marine shouldnt be able to take on a single regiment of imperial guard without a scratch, no matter how much they are your superspecial boner character" And conversely..
"Terminator armor should not be punctured by a guy with a stick with a stone glued onto it"

"The Emperor is  the most advanced and powerful human being ever, and possibly will ever be, but he is still human and contains many of those flaws even if he doesnt notice or acknowledge them."
"The Emperor is NOT an emotionless super manipulative uncaring bastard being that only "looks" human, in how people perceive him, and what they here is just psychic manipulations to make them do what It wants"

...

That said, i am tickled at the idea of the giant gold clad emperor being an illusion, and actual ones this shriveled little runty guy, Ala All Might...

This as example... My Hero Academia Spoilers!!

=

hahah! very true and not entirely unfounded feelings...

"Good news friend! I have acquired a gimbal mount replacement for your missing Joint! It shall allow for near complete unrestricted movement of your arm. It was formerly the ankle mount of the "Murder-servitor" which had caused the wound, luckly the melta blasts only removed a large portion of its torso leaving the lower body intact! As to its combat nature, the mount will actually improve your effectiveness by a whole 4.8 percent! And only with an increased size of 33.2353243 Percent!!"

how do you portray a techpriest with that level of fellowship?