The Rack

[PhantomPistoleer]

I like that idea.  And let's have Hellhound have Involuntary Transformation, much like the "Savage Man Beast" Archetype.  One caveat, though: Let's come up with a way that the Involuntary works both ways - meaning, a way that Hellhound can be forced back into Kenneth form.

The easiest way would be for him to have to make a Will Save as Hellhound under certain conditions.  Like, if he's rendered unconscious.

[VandalSavage]

Having talked to Wyzard in chat, we came up with a few developments:

He will be reducing his prodigious Feats.  He will be making a Kenneth form, rather than just a Normal Identity.  And Hellhound's Involuntary Transformation will be inspired by an innocent - reasonably innocent - person praying to banish him.  Like Kenneth's Involuntary Transformation, it will be of Major intensity and Uncommon frequency.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Ha ha ha.  That's awesome.

[WyzardWhately]

Alright.  Rebuild complete.  I think the numbers will actually work out this time.  Notably, Kenneth is capable of going batshit and tearing things up.  I don't see that actually coming up very much, but it's part of why he likes being at The Rack so much.  He doesn't run into simple non-powered evil humans in the street and end up trying to curb-stomp them.

[VandalSavage]

Yes, The Rack keeps the leash tight, but they still let the dog hunt.  I would imagine it will be a happy place for Hellhound.

As for Kenneth, only time and therapy will tell.

I look forward to the numbers.

[WyzardWhately]

You have the numbers.  :D  Elliquiy doesn't have a time-limit on editing, so I just edited his sheet.  Go look at the first page.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Hellhound
Concept: Avenging Monster
Hero Points: 3
Allegiance: Retribution  (Go watch the Watchmen trailer and listen to the way Rorscharch pronounces this word)
Description:  A seven-foot-tall gargoyle-like monstrosity.  Stick horns and bat-wings on a Crinos werewolf (from white wolf's games) and you're pretty close.  He's a little more anthropomorphised than that, but not much.  His invulnerability is less flashy-looking than Superman's bullets-bounce-off-me thing.  His body just soaks up attacks like they were nothing.  He's probably got some kind of mystical Word of Inviolability on him or something, but in any case attacks seem to be absorbed rather than deflected.

Str: 10 (34+12)
Dex: 10
Con: 34 +12
Int: 10
Wis: 14 +2
Cha: 12 +1
[30]

Combat:
Attack +3 ( +8 melee )
Defense 18
[22]

Feats:
Attack Focus: Melee x 5
All-out Attack
Power Attack
Chokehold
Improved Critical: Unarmed (19-20)
Improved Grab
Stunning Attack
Luck x 2
Fearless
Fascinate: Intimidate
Startle
[16]

Saves:
Toughness +12
Fort: +12
Ref: +6
Will: +11
[15]

Skills:
Sense Motive: +12 (14)
Intimidate: +12  (13)
Survival: +8 (10)
Notice: +12 (14)
Search: +8
Stealth: +8
[15]

Powers
+24 Strength: Alternate: Drain any one trait, 10 + Slow Fade x 4 (1 hour).  Alternate: Hellfire Blast: Conical Area 8
Impervious Toughness +12
Flight 5, 250 MPH
Sin-Sight (super-sense: Accurate, Acute.  3 points.  This is a mental sense, although it manifests visually.  He can see the evil a person has done, or the weights on their conscience, as images in a sort of aura around them.  It’s entirely reasonable to require notice or sense motive tests against their Will defense, or their Bluff skill, IMHO.)
Scent:  Accurate, Acute, Tracking 3, Extended 3 [~2 mile increment]
[60]


158
Drawbacks:
Normal Identity:  Takes at least two rounds, depending on how angry he is.  -5
Involuntary Transformation: Major Intensity, Uncommon, 3 points.  Kenneth changes if he gets too angry for his own good.  Hellhound changes if someone somehow makes him stop being angry - or alternately when exposed to an innocent praying to banish him.
Complications:
Obsession:  Punishing sinners.
Reputation:  The Hellhound is a horrifying scary evil motherfucker, according to most.  Everybody has something on their conscience, or thinks they do, and the idea of being around someone whose job it is to punish you for it, even if you don't believe the supernatural-origin hype, is disconcerting at best. 
-8

PP Total: 150


Kenneth Shepherd
Concept: Basket-Case
Description:  Kenneth is a slightly strung-out young man in his early twenties.  He usually dresses in beat-up jeans and a worn hoodie that he wraps around himself like a security blanket.  He is simultaneously horrified by the things Hellhound does, and addicted to them.  Notably, his sin-sight doesn't work on himself in either form, so he has no idea as to own objective moral state.  He often speaks in a near-whisper, and is generally incredibly subdued unless something sets off his temper.
Hero Points: 3

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 14 +2
Int 10
Wis 14 +2
Cha 16 +2
[14]

Combat:
Attack: Melee +5
Defense: 15
[10]

Saves:
Toughness +2
Fort +2
Reflex
Will +2

Feats:
Luck x 2
Attractive
Melee Focus x 5
All-out Attack
Rage x 4  [Strength 20, +7 Fort and Will, Defense 13]
[13]

Skills:
Sense Motive +4 (6)
Bluff +4 (7/11)
Diplomacy +4 (7/11)
Notice +4 (6)
Stealth +4 (6)
[5]

Powers:
Sin-Sight: 3 points
[3]

[45]

Complications:
Temper
Addiction: Being Hellhound.  It's the only time he has purely positive feelings about himself and what he does.  Also, I think Kenneth might actually be a virgin, in his normal form...
Secret/Reputation:  It tends to cause problems for Kenneth when people find out that he's really Hellhound

Heheh. This is better.  But Kenneth is a PL 3 character, so the limit to his attack, defense, toughness and the what not is +3, with tradeoffs.  But he has an ATB of +5, DEB of +5, a TOU of +2 and damage potential of +5 (even if he does have an AC of +3 at the time, it doesn't all add up).  The combined four stats mentioned above must equal 12.

Furthermore, I think that your character stats are a little fluffy.  You could make him more powerful with a bit of economy. 

::gets razor out!::  If I may?

[WyzardWhately]

Heheh. This is better.  But Kenneth is a PL 3 character, so the limit to his attack, defense, toughness and the what not is +3, with tradeoffs.  But he has an ATB of +5, DEB of +5, a TOU of +2 and damage potential of +5 (even if he does have an AC of +3 at the time, it doesn't all add up).  The combined four stats mentioned above must equal 12.

Furthermore, I think that your character stats are a little fluffy.  You could make him more powerful with a bit of economy. 

::gets razor out!::  If I may?

I know how PL works.  I hadn't actually intended to keep Kenneth into any particular PL.  My goal was just to build a reasonable-looking everday ID on 45 points.  I personally think he works, since we've long ago departed from the RAW with regard to how normal ID works.  Look at it like this:  He's almost harmless most of the time.  If something touches him off, he's dangerous to normal non-combatant types (and furniture) for about five rounds, then he gets the shakes and is useless again.  In no case is he a threat to, say, a swat team or a real supervillain.  I'd rather keep him the way he is, but if it's a problem for VS I can change him.

But, if you want to make suggestions about how Hellhound is built, feel free.  A second set of eyes never hurts.

[WyzardWhately]

On further reconsideration, I've decided to build Kenneth according to standard PL3 limitiations, like Pistoleer suggests.  I decided the test I should use was whether or not he can be a threat to noncombatants, which doesn't actually take much.  Currently, he should be legal at all points.  When he rages, his attack and soak stay the same, his damage goes up and his defense goes down.  When he's not raging, he's definitely under the cap, although he's wary enough to have a better defense than the average man on the street.  His stealth rating is high, but not intended to denote ninja skills.  He's just so turned in on himself that people can walk right past him and not see him.  It's not even necessarily intentional.

Kenneth Shepherd
Concept: Basket-Case
Description:  Kenneth is a slightly strung-out young man in his early twenties.  He usually dresses in beat-up jeans and a worn hoodie that he wraps around himself like a security blanket.  He is simultaneously horrified by the things Hellhound does, and addicted to the rush and the fun.  Notably, his sin-sight doesn't work on himself in either form, so he has no idea as to own objective moral state.  He often speaks in a near-whisper, and is generally incredibly subdued unless something sets off his temper.
Hero Points: 3

Str 10
Dex 10
Con 16 +3
Int 10
Wis 14 +2
Cha 16 +2
[16]

Combat:
Attack: Melee +3
Defense: 13
[6]

Saves:
Toughness +3
Fort +3
Reflex
Will +2

Feats:
Luck x 2
Attractive
Melee Focus x 3
All-out Attack
Rage x 4 [Strength 20, +8 fort, +7 Will, Defense 11.]
Benefit: Wealth 
Benefit: Unassuming (if there's a feat or something for this in one of the books, let me know.)  Kenneth seems harmless, and he's very easy to ignore.
Hide in Plain Sight.
[14]

Skills:
Sense Motive +4 (6)
Bluff +4 (7/11)
Diplomacy +4 (7/11)
Notice +4 (6)
Stealth +8
[6]

Powers:
Sin-Sight: 3 points
[3]

[45]

Complications:
Temper
Addiction: Being Hellhound.  It's the only time he has purely positive feelings about himself and what he does.  Also, I think Kenneth might actually be a virgin, in his normal form...
Secret/Reputation:  It tends to cause problems for Kenneth when people find out that he's really Hellhound

[PhantomPistoleer]

The Avenging Monster: Hellhound (10 PL/150pp)

Statistics
Str: 16/32 (+3/+12)  Dex: 10 (+0)  Con: 16/32 (+3/+12) Int: 10 (+0)  Wis: 14 (+2)  Cha: 10 (+0)
[16]

Skills:
Intimidate 12  (+24); Notice 12 (+14); Search 8 (+8); Sense Motive: +12 (14)

Feats:[/u
All-out Attack; Attack Focus (Melee); Attack Specialization (Unarmed) 2; Chokehold; Dodge Focus 4 Fascinate (Intimidate); Fearless; Improved Critical: Unarmed (19-20); Improved Grab; Luck 2; Power Attack

Powers
Enhanced Strength 18 [18pp]
Extra:  Enhanced Constitution 18 [18pp]
Extra:  Flight 5 (250 MPH) [5pp]
Extra:  Immunity 16 (aging, fire damage, life support, need for sleep) [16pp]
Extra:  Impervious Toughness 12 [12pp]
Extra:  Super Strength 5 (Heavy Load 45 tons) [5pp]
Extra:  Magic 14 [14pp]

Magic
Hellfire Control (Extra:  Area: Conical) 8[/b]
Alternate Power: Drain 10 (Any one at any time; Power Feat: Slow Fade 4 [1 hour]);
Alternate Power: Emotion Control 10 (Flaw: One Emotion [Despair] and;
Super Senses Array Sin-Sight:  (Accurate, Acute, Detect: Evil); Scent: (Accurate, Acute, Tracking 3, Extended 3); Dark Vision;
Alternate Power: Possession 4; [linked: Mimic 4 (Personality);
Alternate Power: Nauseate 6 [linked: Paralyze 6)

Combat:
BaB: +3; +4 melee; +8 unarmed
Damage: +12 unarmed; +8 hellfire
Grapple: +20
BdB: +4 (+8 Dodge Focus, +2 Flat-footed)
Init: +0

Saves:
Toughness +12 (Impervious); Fort: +12; Ref: +5 Will: +10
Stats 16 + Skills 11 + Feats 16 + Powers 88 + Combat 14 + Saves 13 + Drawbacks -8 =

So this would be my suggestion!

*NOTES:  Okay, so you might be wondering what I’m doing here.

Powers:  I returned to a 1st edition rule to make your character scream badass and give him a vast repertoire on the battlefield.  That’s the Extra Rule, which is not as prominent in 2nd edition M&M, since the alternate power rule rules supreme.  However, I was really shooting for an ultra-powerful behemoth, a Black Adam lite.  Since a lot of the powers are now in the magic spectrum, you’ll have to „cast“ the spells, too.  But of course, that only requires that you not be bound.

I feel like the magic spectrum would allow your character to grow, too.  You could always make the spells stronger and/or add more alternate powers to your magical array.

Skills:  I got rid of stealth and survival because of a) your immunities and b) because it seems silly for a guy that can hit as hard as a air-to-land missile to be sneaking around.  Since you can fly in and out, and since you’ll probably have more qualified sneakers on the field, I felt that it was a redundant power.

Furthermore, I employed an optional house rule from the D&D 3.0 Barbarian/Ranger/Druid handbook, which allows you to use your strength modifier instead of your charisma modifier in your intimidate check.  Coupled with your despair, you will definitely not need some of feats.

Also, I think that Kenneth should be fun to play as also.  He should be like the Heroic Everyman from Agents of Freedom.  I am sort of against the rage x4 with a strength of 10, but would nevertheless like to see Kenneth as a PL 5 with 100pp.  That way, he's fun to play as, too. :D  I will be posting my suggestion for Kenneth some time today.

[WyzardWhately]

Pretty interesting.  I don't think I like having his sin-sight be a spell.  Kenneth's got it too, and it's just part of the concept that it's an innate thing he's got.  Other than that it looks fairly solid - the magic array does make him substantially more spectre-like, and that's hardly a bad thing.

Doesn't Super-Strength add to his grapple check?

[PhantomPistoleer]

Lemme check!

Hmm.  It only applies to sustain a grapple.  I never knew that!

As for Sin-Sight, it's up to you.  It doesn't HAVE to be a spell, since I didn't add any of the flaws.  I didn't want him to be Specter like, but more demon like?  So I gave him possession and nauseate, since I always associate demons with bile.  You could always just switch things around, too in your magic array; instead of having Hellfire be the main thing, you could make the super-senses array be the main thing, and then array everything off of it accordingly.

I was thinking of making his CHA 8 or 6, too, since he's such an aberration.

[WyzardWhately]

Lemme check!

Hmm.  It only applies to sustain a grapple.  I never knew that!

As for Sin-Sight, it's up to you.  It doesn't HAVE to be a spell, since I didn't add any of the flaws.  I didn't want him to be Specter like, but more demon like?  So I gave him possession and nauseate, since I always associate demons with bile.  You could always just switch things around, too in your magic array; instead of having Hellfire be the main thing, you could make the super-senses array be the main thing, and then array everything off of it accordingly.

I was thinking of making his CHA 8 or 6, too, since he's such an aberration.

That's actually probably fair.  I know, like, nothing about 1st edition, so I'm not sure how these extra things work.

[PhantomPistoleer]

The extra rule is simple.

You use a power, right?  Say, Super Strength.  That's 2pp per rank.

But say that you also want Blast, which is also 2pp per rank.  Well, you could totally pay 2pp per rank for super strength and then pay 2pp per blast.  Or you could pay 2pp per rank for super strength and then pay an alternate power feat (1pp) for blast, but that means that you can either do one or the other at a single time.

However, you could also pay 2pp per rank for super strength and then pay 1pp per rank for blast if you put it down as an extra.  It's the same as purchasing both at full price, except you deduct a pp from every rank that you pay.  So if something is worth 5pp, then you pay 4pp per rank.

[WyzardWhately]

The extra rule is simple.

You use a power, right?  Say, Super Strength.  That's 2pp per rank.

But say that you also want Blast, which is also 2pp per rank.  Well, you could totally pay 2pp per rank for super strength and then pay 2pp per blast.  Or you could pay 2pp per rank for super strength and then pay an alternate power feat (1pp) for blast, but that means that you can either do one or the other at a single time.

However, you could also pay 2pp per rank for super strength and then pay 1pp per rank for blast if you put it down as an extra.  It's the same as purchasing both at full price, except you deduct a pp from every rank that you pay.  So if something is worth 5pp, then you pay 4pp per rank.

EDIT:  Nevermind, that was stupid.

Still, I can see why they cut Extras out of 2E. 

[PhantomPistoleer]

They didn't actually cut it out.

It's just not ever used because of the alternate power feat.

[WyzardWhately]

They didn't actually cut it out.

It's just not ever used because of the alternate power feat.

Really?  Because I can see lots of instances where it's far more useful than an alternate power.  One would not, for example, want to forgo a defensive power to use an offensive one.

[VandalSavage]

By the way, I am watching this thread in fascination.  The learning experience has been terrific.

[PhantomPistoleer]

Really?  Because I can see lots of instances where it's far more useful than an alternate power.  One would not, for example, want to forgo a defensive power to use an offensive one.

::nods::  But in other instances, not so much.  In your array, I only got back 20 points, but I spent ~90 points.  If I had used alternate power points, I would have spent only 25.

[WyzardWhately]

::nods::  But in other instances, not so much.  In your array, I only got back 20 points, but I spent ~90 points.  If I had used alternate power points, I would have spent only 25.

But then I wouldn't have been able to have enhanced strength and con at the same time, and my character's life would have been a parade of hilarious misery.

[VandalSavage]

But then I wouldn't have been able to have enhanced strength and con at the same time, and my character's life would have been a parade of hilarious misery.

Done.  Alternate Powers all around on the Hound.

...Joking, of course.

[WyzardWhately]

Second question:  Doesn't a rank 14 blast with a +1 area modifier end up being rank 9?

14 x 2 = 28, and 28/3 = 9 1/3.

Having meditated on it for a bit, I like overall what you've done.  I'll probably tinker with it some, maybe strip out some of the immunities, then move his Senses out of magic and back in with the rest of his powers.  I did kind of like him having some stealth.  No, he doesn't *need* to sneak up on people.  But it's scarier if he does, and that's a part of his function.

[PhantomPistoleer]

But then I wouldn't have been able to have enhanced strength and con at the same time, and my character's life would have been a parade of hilarious misery.

Right, but you paid the same amount you would have for strength and constitution that you would have if you hadn't used the extra.

Second question:  Doesn't a rank 14 blast with a +1 area modifier end up being rank 9?

14 x 2 = 28, and 28/3 = 9 1/3.

Yes, that is right.

[PhantomPistoleer]

My second recommendation:  instead of giving him stealth skills, maybe you should give him Concealment or Obscure.

[VandalSavage]

My second recommendation:  instead of giving him stealth skills, maybe you should give him Concealment or Obscure.

Narratively, I think that is optimal.  Some manner of supernatural predilection for Concealment, or shroud, rather than training.