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Author Topic: This article actually pissed me off.  (Read 2196 times)

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Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

This article actually pissed me off.
« on: August 08, 2016, 09:52:55 AM »
I know it's a month old, and it's probably been linked here before, but...I just got linked to it today, and I just...how can somebody be in the Kink Community and completely miss the point of one of the most common kinks out there? How can somebody be so arrogant that something they aren't personally into is deemed "Unacceptable" for some nonsensical reason and they think they have the right to tell a certain subset of the Kink Community to "Fuck Off?"
As a "Straight White Male" and a "Switch," this doubly galling to me. >.<

This steaming pile of B******t.

I just. I don't even know where to begin with that article. >.<

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2016, 10:08:34 AM »
I wonder if that counts as Kinkshaming *taps chin in thought*

But yeah that seems just like an attempt to wag a finger and say "those people, those people, those people."  Im pretty sure there are similar kink communities around the world and whatever, its just that we don't hear about them because in some places its nowhere near acceptable as it is in other places.

It actually reminds me abit of videogames where people try to create little fiefdoms of "im superior, I don't need players like you here, go away." Just because they want to do things their way and hate everyone else who has something different.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:14:28 AM by Lustful Bride »

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2016, 10:18:30 AM »
That's the thing; all the way through, she's desperately trying to avoid "kink shaming" by protesting that she isn't Kinkshaming since being a "Dominant Male" isn't a kink! It's like....yes....it is. There's a difference between simply being "On Top" position-wise and being "Dominant," after all.

And yeah, the level of visibility of kink communities does vary country on country, since some countries are more "open" about it than others. Like, when I visited Greece a few years back, we were in the bus driving down a main road, and on the very edge of the road - in the middle of a row of shops - was a BDSM Sex Shop, labelled as such. I watched it going by like ".....well ok then." Sadly I did not get the opportunity to browse their wares - in any event, that might have gotten me some VERY strange looks in customs had my bags been searched - but the point remains that you likely wouldn't find such a shop so brazenly on the main High Street in England or the USA. XD

Back to the article at hand, though, it just seems....arrogant and hypocritical to me. She has the gall to suggest that a kink isn't "Valid" because she doesn't "get" it - even misunderstanding the whole concept of "Daddy/Daughter play," if I'm reading it correctly - and hypocritical because in the same breath as saying she's not condemning peoples kinks...she condemns peoples kinks.

And what the fuck does Donald Trump have to do with any of it?! The last thing I want to think about in a BDSM setting is Donald Trump! XD >.<


And yeah, I agree on that last point. Thankfully most communities reactions seems to be "Well fuck off, we don't want people like you here." XD

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2016, 10:43:26 AM »
If anything I would argue we need more Doms. Period :P

I don't know if its just me but it looks like we have maybe a ratio of Doms to Subs somewhere like  3:6

While there is nothing wrong with subs I find it difficult to find the right dom and we need more...I was going somewhere with this but I totally got lost :P

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2016, 10:58:44 AM »
LOL. That happens to me sometimes :P

But yes, I completely agree. I enjoy Domming, and while the side of me that likes to Dom secretly likes all the choice I have, the Sub side of me is like "No! More Doms!" It's so very hard to find a female Dom on E and in general...we definitely need more. Maybe some kind of recruitment drive? A bake sale, perhaps? A free collar with every third muffin? :P

Offline Oniya

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2016, 11:19:15 AM »
And what the fuck does Donald Trump have to do with any of it?! The last thing I want to think about in a BDSM setting is Donald Trump! XD >.<

The last thing I want to think of in any intimate setting or fictional representation thereof is Donald Trump.

Humor aside, D/s play is a kink, and as long as there are straight submissive females, they will be looking for straight dominant males.  And vice versa with submissive males and dominant females.  Thing is, Trump strikes me as an example of a 'bad Dom'.  He doesn't care what happens or who gets hurt as long as he gets what he wants.  That this is mainstream D/s kink is a myth perpetuated by E.L. James and whatever the porn equivalent of Hollywood is.  Every stable D/s pair I've encountered has dominant that is concerned about the well-being of their submissive.  If someone tells Donald Trump 'no', then he rages.  If a submissive uses a safe-word (which might be something other than 'no'), the proper response from a dominant is to back off and make sure everything is okay.

There's probably enough material to write a counter-article titled 'Why the Don is not a Dom.'

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2016, 11:27:14 AM »
*laughs* I would actually sit down to read that article. Hell, if I had the time and inclination, I would probably write that article. XD

But yes, I agree; one of my biggest criticisms of that hideous book and the hack of an author is that it completely missed the point of a stable BDSM relationship. He stalks her, abuses her, actually hurts her and when she says "Cut it the fuck out," he says "Shan't" and basically guilts and pressures her into accepting it.

But yes, I would agree; Trump throws a tantrum whenever somebody doesn't do what he wants, and that is an attitude in a Dom that makes for a very bad, very abusive Dominant. Those people exist, of course, people who use their Dominance to bully and abuse...but that is not the norm, and I wish people would stop portraying it as the norm.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2016, 12:25:00 PM »
I will definitely have to read this later.

I've been to plenty of kink discussions where we talk about privilege. Active in the scene for 5 years now, so I'll definitely have an opinion on it.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2016, 01:13:02 PM »
I will definitely have to read this later.

I've been to plenty of kink discussions where we talk about privilege. Active in the scene for 5 years now, so I'll definitely have an opinion on it.

Privilege? Like Male privilege? White Privilege? Class Privilege It just seems to me like the person there is just venting about kinks that they don't like. But idk *shrugs* 
I'm not really a dom so I might be missing it.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 01:32:28 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2016, 01:19:51 PM »
Yeah, I agree, She's really mixing up notions about kink & non-standard sex with a ragbag of gender politics - and they fail to illuminate each other.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2016, 01:29:16 PM »
*Quoting form the page*

Quote
Now I am not here to argue that men can't be Doms (although, realistically, they probably can't).
Quote
But Dommes (the female version) are rebelling against social roles that keep women subservient, while Doms (the male version) are looking at a society that is already anti-women and wants to keep them subservient.

*Cough* kinkshaming .

I like when a guy dominates me, though I enjoy women as well. If it gets you off and is 100% consensual, just enjoy it. :P

Quote
Are you a conservative man masquerading as a Dom?
1.Are you voting for Trump? This has nothing to do with your sexual proclivities, but it does suggest you shouldn't be interacting with people

What the fuck does this have to do with anything? Politics does not equal sexuality/kinks

Im gonna label this person a hypocrite. Saying they are all for different kinks and fetishes but then making an article shaming those who have certain lusts.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 03:31:34 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline gaggedLouise

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2016, 01:40:41 PM »
Yep, it's like when I heard a radio reporter from here who was talking to a dominant woman. The lady was wielding the whip on her male partner and sometimes a few guests,  also male; the reporter getting very wowed by what she saw and heard and holding it up as sex and a subversive feminist statement at the same time. Now if she had been talking to a male Dom with a female submissive, I'm positive she would just have cast him as a dreary abusive macho pervert, no matter who he was, and not listening at all to what he was talking about.  >:(
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 02:14:34 PM by gaggedLouise »

Offline HairyHeretic

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2016, 04:05:49 PM »
The last thing I want to think of in any intimate setting or fictional representation thereof is Donald Trump.

Sounds like a perfect safeword. Guaranteed to kill the mood immediately ;)

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2016, 04:31:16 PM »
Oh, the writer is almost certainly a hypocrite, and almost certainly wants to create their own little space where only what they deem acceptable is accepted. I'm sorry that some people are into things that you don't get, little missy, but that's the way the world works. Ugh. That kind of person sickens me. I'm not about to say what she gets off on is unacceptable, so please leave me and mine alone, TYVM. Don't like it, don't do it. End of.

And yeah, I don't see what privilege or Gender Politics has to do with what two consenting adults do behind closed doors, or what privilege has to do with what gives me a rager.

And oh, of course. That kind of hypocrisy is very common in todays society; a female Dominant with whips and paddles is heroic and subversive, but a male with handcuffs and gags is a misogynistic patriarch. A female who stands up to and hits her abusive partner is heroic and should be applauded, but a male who stands up and hits his abusive partner is an abusive asshole who should be prosecuted. And, of course, it works the other way as well a lot of the time too. It's all so very sickening to those of us who actually want equality and understanding between everybody. :-/

Offline Beorning

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2016, 04:31:58 PM »
I've read the article and I agree that it's arrogant and irritating.

The author seems to say that it's okay for a woman to have any kind of kink (because they are the victims of male-dominated society) and that it's okay for a man to have any kink, as long as it goes against the patriarchal norms. If a man happens to have a kink that actually fits with these norms, he's an awful person and is surely just a sexist bastard...

Uhm, sorry, it doesn't work that way. A kink is a kink. You cannot shame someone for having it just because it reflects social norms you disagree with it.

Also, quite shockingly, the author actually defends the idea of double standards! She says that it's okay for her to be accepting toward female subs, but not toward male doms, because people accept men going to striptease clubs while shaming erotic dancers who work there. Uhm... isn't this kind of thing a feminist should be fighting *against*?

And that bit about Trump is just mind-boggling...

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2016, 04:47:22 PM »
I agree totally. A kink is beyond your control, to a certain extent; you get turned on by what you get turned on by, and you shouldn't get punished or shamed for being turned on by it. Ok, if it's illegal and you act on it, then you get punished...but that's the action and not the act of being turned on by it in the first place, and that's going into a sticky grey area that I want to avoid in this thread since it's off topic. XD

And yeah, that thing about erotic dancers...although, in my general circle of people I know, nobody actually looks down on dancers. Maybe we're weird, but we all know full well how bloody hard it is to be a stripper / pole dancer - I've tried some PD classes, just to see what it was all about since I heard it was good exercise and MY GOD I was in pain for a week afterwards - and more jokes are made about the people going there. Ok, more jokes are made about the Strip-Club Buffet than the clients or the strippers, but eh. Maybe it's just that I hang around with very sex-positive people, I dunno. As far as I'm concerned, sex sells. People have always and will always be interested in sex, so if you have people who want to pay to get a cute girl (or guy) to dance and gyrate on you, then more power to you. Likewise if you're a stripper and you're good at it and you've chosen to do it, then again, more power to you, your choice, I ain't gonna tell you that you're not allowed to do it. Yeah, it's a scummy job in some areas, but hey...everybody in dire straits needs to take up a scummy job. Personally speaking, I'd rather gyrate in a dark club in a thong than go wading through city sewers all day, BUT that's just me. :P

Anyway, off topic.

Point is, I agree; erotic dancing shaming should be fought against, alas, too many Third Wave Feminists - not all, probably not even most, but a lot of them - use double standards and hypocrisy in their rhetoric and that's something I try to distance myself on.

No, not derailing this conversation in that direction. XD


Sidebar:
"Vote Trump" is so totally my new safeword.

Offline Thesunmaid

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2016, 05:55:26 PM »
I was tempted to post on there...and this would have been my reply..

Wow...for a supposedly accepting community this is a...well bitchy. I know quite a few white males who are excellent dominants and some female and other wise non white males who can be of the traditionally 50 shades variety.  It does not really matter what color someones skin is or thier gender people fuck up....people are assholes...people are bullies. They are not all just white straight men. I assure you I know all kinds of assholes and bullies and they come in quite a few shapes sizes and colors.Any one from any walk of life that are into kinky things can do it wrong. So long as the people involved are consenting and trust each other who gives a flying fuck what they look like? I would have thought people that would be involved in this community would not be so closed minded and yes..bigoted.(by the way this is the meaning of the word bigot " a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions."I am not seeing the part where it says Unless you are a white man...then its totally ok!)Seriously...saying all white male dominants are evil and should be villanized is quite simply the largest pile of bullshit I have ever heard.I know quite a few who are wonderful sweet dom's who would not think of hurting anyone with out thier consent.Feel free to pull your head out of your ass...unless the stick up there is wedged too tightly.


But then...I realized I would be breaking my cardinal rule about stupid shit on the internet. Don't feed the trolls as well as never argue with an idiot...they will pull you down to thier level and beat you with experience.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2016, 08:04:13 PM »
I think it a lot of stems from the fact that men entering in the community automatically assume that they are dominant, must be dominant, or pretend to be dominant.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2016, 08:07:33 PM »
I think it a lot of stems from the fact that men entering in the community automatically assume that they are dominant, must be dominant, or pretend to be dominant.

Ah that's just people losing their baby teeth. (I literally couldn't think of a better way to phrase it :/)

Once they have had some time to stay there and experiment they find what suits them best. I thought I was 100% sub only M/F all the time when I first joined E.  Now I know i'm like 50/50 on just about everything :P

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2016, 08:10:25 PM »
Granted my experience of men entering the community is fairly limited, but...I don't think that's necessarily true. I remember when I entered the community and I was still new, green, I had no idea what I enjoyed or how to go about getting what I enjoyed and learned it all by chance and experimentation. I started as a Dom, yes, but only because I didn't have experience Subbing so I didn't know if I enjoyed it or not. But as Lustful Bride says, that's just people losing their teeth; everybody assumes that they're entirely one direction until an exception comes along and they start thinking about it.

I mean, I disagree that men automatically enter the community assuming that they're dominant, but even if it does stem from that...so what? As long as they're with consenting partners and everybody is having a good time and not getting hurt (against their will) who cares? The writer of the article isn't stating "Oh, you men who assume you will always be dominant and you men who are pretending to be dominant, you need to look at yourselves and figure out what you really want." It's saying "You men who enjoy being dominant? Fuck off." Which I think is reprehensible no matter which way you slice it. But that's just me.

Offline la dame en noir

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2016, 09:40:34 PM »
Like I said, there are problematic people in the community. I've experienced sexism and racism. I've also seen abusive and unsafe partners. I've run into men that automatically assume they own me. I've talked to people who don't know what it means to be dominant. That there is a difference between Dom/Master and Sub/Slave. That it's okay to be male and be submissive. That its okay to be new and not know everything.

I'm speaking from experience.

Offline Lux12

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2016, 09:49:57 PM »
I can't say I blame the person who wrote this. I've heard so many accounts of micro-aggressions and toxic individuals to be all that mad at them. While I can't say I've ever been oppressed on the grounds of my gender or race, I've developed a certain understanding that makes it hard for me to be mad at them. If I had a dime for every time I thought "how nice would it be if all the other men on the planet just disappeared" I wouldn't be worrying about my debts and bills. I've felt rage so intense that if I had a proper chance to vent every bit of anger when I am near my breaking point, it wouldn't be pretty to behold.  Hell there are many days where I think it would be fantastic for all the dom men in the world to just go away so people wouldn't hold me to any standard resembling them because I live in a world which has forgotten that fem expressing men and sub men (and those like me who are both) have a place.

For that matter, just because you haven't experienced what they have doesn't mean that others have not. It's easy to judge people who do not share an extreme facsimile of our experiences. Kink is not in and of itself racist or sexist, but that does not mean that the spaces dedicated to it or that people involved cannot have a hand in such things. People dismissing the pain of those who have suffered on the grounds of how angry they sound really doesn't help. People refusing to do anything to improve things or at the least stand by them when they are in such situations is what leads to that rage. Not to mention that ongoing systemic injustice has a habit of doing that too. I've seen the sort of assholes they're talking about and boy howdy does it take all my restraint not to tear into them verbally with all the fury of a rabid hyena.

Call it an unpopular opinion, but I can't condemn the author. Frankly I'm sort of sympathetic. Don't confuse my sympathy for self hate though. I assure you, there's quite a difference between self loathing and possessing a measure of empathy. I am however saying one should actually try to understand why they feel this way rather than just condemning those who have experienced such things outright based solely on the fact they're angry.

Offline Lustful Bride

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #22 on: August 08, 2016, 10:29:12 PM »
Quote
Like I said, there are problematic people in the community. I've experienced sexism and racism. I've also seen abusive and unsafe partners. I've run into men that automatically assume they own me. I've talked to people who don't know what it means to be dominant. That there is a difference between Dom/Master and Sub/Slave. That it's okay to be male and be submissive. That its okay to be new and not know everything.

I'm speaking from experience.

Well that's why communication is key. Be up front with the person and let them know what it is you are and are not looking for. If they cant handle it then both parties can move on. There are plenty of fish in the sea and their dicks are not golden. :P

We aren't saying that stuff like this doesn't happen just that it is unfair to shame people for either enjoying a kink or for having one of having a male being dominant over them. You cant throw an entire group of people into one category of all being bad just because of what gets them aroused.

We don't speak up to make little of those who have suffered injustice, it just isn't right to then start hating on people who haven't done anything wrong. Inocent till proven guilty and such....was going somewhere with this but not sure where.

Quote
I can't say I blame the person who wrote this. I've heard so many accounts of micro-aggressions and toxic individuals to be all that mad at them. While I can't say I've ever been oppressed on the grounds of my gender or race, I've developed a certain understanding that makes it hard for me to be mad at them.

Yes but it also doesn't justify saying everyone of X group is Bad or whatever :P

And not to mention some of what the author said sounds like a double standard.

Quote
But Dommes (the female version) are rebelling against social roles that keep women subservient, while Doms (the male version) are looking at a society that is already anti-women and wants to keep them subservient.


Yes it is bad a person had a bad experience with another person. Its bad that racism, sexism, classism, religious..ism..(I don't know the word) still exists in the world At times it feels like its getting worse. But it doesn't justify treating everyone of the opposite group as if they are all bad and trotting out a double standard. Its just repeating the exact same problem in an endless cycle of everyone being an ass to everyone.

And the cycle must be broken. :) *pulls everyone in for a hug* I love all of you. :-)
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:37:56 PM by Lustful Bride »

Offline Blythe

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2016, 10:32:21 PM »
I got pretty bothered earlier, and I came back to post here in a much clearer frame of mind.

I think "go away unsafe, creepy, sexist/racist, rude/patronizing Doms" is a very different sentiment than "go away all straight white male Doms."

The former I can get behind--safer kink communities are always something I can get behind, and there are definitely some people that fit the above adjectives I mentioned.

The latter? The latter is stereotyping that I want nothing to do with.

The only thing I particularly agree with in the article is:

Quote
6. Do you feel that 50 Shades of Grey is a valid model of consent?

I'll concede the article writer has a point with #6 there.

The article-writer lost a lot of credibility when she essentially claimed switches are just people not into anything out of the ordinary (lumped them into point #4).  Switches can and do get wild, and frankly, knowledgeable switches who can Dom when there's a shortage of safe Doms are a godsend, especially because I feel they have a wonderful insight into the submissive perspective of things. That alienation and shaming of switches uncomfortably reminds me way too much of the way bisexual people are often shamed and told to "pick" a gender to be attracted to, as if 'bisexual' weren't a legit orientation--the article writer comes off as if she's claiming switches aren't even a thing. It's not cool. It's not right. Erasure is not right. Switches can be switches and still be legitimately kinky and non-vanilla.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2016, 10:44:16 PM by Blythe »

Offline Fury Aphrodisia

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2016, 11:20:38 PM »
Thank you for that, Blythe. That really bothered me.

I mean, I know I'm not straight (I'm kinda... well, parabolic, I guess?), and I'm not male, and not entirely white, but the article writer seems to have a lot of hang-ups about what is to be considered legitimate and allowed in their community. Which is odd, given the lengths they go to in order to say they love it all. So, it leaves me wondering... Who are you to get to decide how much of a kink is a kink, for one? That something "isn't really all that kinky anyway" is... ridiculous. If someone feels as though they are isolated and need some kind of support in order to safely explore something they like, isn't that... kinda what the community is for? Regardless what it is? It seems as though judgements are being made based on this person's perception of "mainstream" and "commonality". There are a lot of common kinks, doesn't mean they're any less kinky.

To assume that a single mindset - dominant, submissive, switch, various variations - within a set cannot be counted on as far as the kink community goes actually undermines ... all of it. No one said a kink HAD to be counter-culture - that's just what you've made out of it. Not every kink lines up with cult mentality and ostracism. And if you're trying to tell me that only those who have suffered for their kink are welcome, then you've missed the whole point of the whole thing from the word "go".

God bless you, anyone, who becomes part of the community. I'd far rather you at least try to learn to do it right, rather than letting someone on the inside holier-than-thou you out of the race. The rest of us are here for you.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2016, 11:34:42 PM »
Alright, I should start by saying that I am not involved in the D/s community. In fact, I only started learning a lot about it when I came to E. I had filled out an F-list a few years ago and found so many different things that I had no idea was a kink. So again, this is coming from someone who has no experience of D/s or anything of the sort. I have dabbled lightly with some roleplay here but I am super hesitant about it. Okay, onto why I came here!

I think...I think I get what she was trying to say, even if she went off on tangents and was certainly very polarizing. I think what she was trying to get across are the male doms who think that Christian Grey did everything right. After reading 50 Shades, thinking "Well hot damn, now I want to do that!" and using 50 Shades as their "manual" so to speak. Yes, those men (they are not all white, and probably not all males) are not helping the kink community. The ones who do abuse and don't obey safe words. Yes, those people (how do we know there is not women abusing the power?) can either get informed or kindly get out of the way. People should be well informed of how to play out a kink safely before trying to dive into it. Think about how many accidental deaths are attributed to autoerotic asphyxiation?

The way she presented this was very rude and nasty. If what I just mentioned was her original mission, she completely overshadowed it by the way she wrote things. Unless a kink is illegal, then who are we to judge? People shouldn't give a damn what other people like.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #26 on: August 08, 2016, 11:44:13 PM »
I agree.

There was a valid point, if that's what she was trying to get at. But if so, she only really mentioned the overlying point once, in point number six.

I'm not positive that's what was meant, but if it is, then yes I agree with you.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #27 on: August 08, 2016, 11:48:12 PM »
Sigh.  I get identified as a straight white male, and yet...

My great grandmother was North Dakota Blackfoot.  Her son-in-law, my grandfather, was descended from a Frenchman who came to Canada in 1668, married a native American woman, and between them and me were 16 more family of native American descent.  The French themselves are mixed of the native (at the time of Julius Caesar) Gauls, mixed with Visigoths, Vandals, and other tribes that came from the east, some even from the Asian steppes.

What really is race?  Genetically, we're all descended from the same hundred or so people who left Africa, bottlenecked by a particularly bad ice age.  When people identify others as 'white' or 'black', I usually get the feeling it's more a cultural thing than genetic thing, because, genetically, we're all unique when you get down to it.  The tone of your skin or the millimeters of your epicanthic fold or the width of your nose or lips is all superficial.

Gender and sexuality are correctly identified as spectrums now.  Ethnicity isn't even a spectrum; it's a case-by-case thing.  Culture, though, can be monolithic.

Really, when it comes to D/s and M/s, it is just like vanilla relationships but even more so: empathy rules.  Any relationship needs empathy, respect, and trust, but when it is more intense like D/s and M/s, the empathy, respect, and trust need to be more intense as well.

I can understand the author's consideration of conservatives, though.  I find the difference between conservatives and liberals likewise a spectrum--of how they express their empathy--just for those in their immediate identity group...or for all people in general.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #28 on: August 08, 2016, 11:55:37 PM »
I find the difference between conservatives and liberals likewise a spectrum--of how they express their empathy--just for those in their immediate identity group...or for all people in general.

They are like two groups of popular kids, each trying to outdo the other by being popular and showing favor to those in their groups, not realizing they both look dated and out of touch. :P

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #29 on: August 09, 2016, 12:13:13 AM »


What really is race?  Genetically, we're all descended from the same hundred or so people who left Africa, bottlenecked by a particularly bad ice age.  When people identify others as 'white' or 'black', I usually get the feeling it's more a cultural thing than genetic thing, because, genetically, we're all unique when you get down to it.  The tone of your skin or the millimeters of your epicanthic fold or the width of your nose or lips is all superficial.



Race is a construct created by racist scientists. In America, it was way to divide to say that, for example, black people were animals and not human at all. A way to say that if your skin matched the same as the white colonists, that you were better. So

Race just has a very toxic past. But I think, no matter what, Humans would've seen the differences either way.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-01.htm

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #30 on: August 09, 2016, 12:26:01 AM »
Race is a construct created by racist scientists. In America, it was way to divide to say that, for example, black people were animals and not human at all. A way to say that if your skin matched the same as the white colonists, that you were better. So

Race just has a very toxic past. But I think, no matter what, Humans would've seen the differences either way.

http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-02-01.htm

Can't go wrong with PBS :)

Even if there were not race and we all looked exactly the same, I guarantee every last dollar I have, that we would still find a reason to hate, kill, and abuse one another.

Its in our nature, that savage animal in the deepest part of our brain that remains chained up, but always whispers  the dark, violent, hateful thoughts in our minds. Its the devil on our shoulder, the voice that tells us to lie, cheat, steal, rob, rape and kill.

It is as powerful as a God but also as weak as a mouse. Because it only ever wins when given power over us, when we give in and listen to its sweet lies and act to harm others.

Race is a lie used by Humans to hurt other Humans. We all came from the Earth and at the very end we all return to it. That's the long and short of it, my father put it depressingly to me when he said at the end of life the worms eat everyone all the same, Rich, Poor, Black, White. It doesn't matter in the slightest. *Suddenly realizing a lot of what he said was not appropriate for a young child*

Besides the only ones we should hold ill will towards are those foul Reticulans and other alien scum setting foot on Earth. Earth is for Humans only! :P
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 12:27:14 AM by Lustful Bride »

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2016, 12:26:52 AM »
Even if there were not race and we all looked exactly the same, we would find a reason to hate, kill, and abuse one another. Its in our nature, that savage animal in the deepest part of our brain that remains chained up, but always whispers  the dark, violent, hateful thoughts in our minds. Its the devil on our shoulder, the voice that tells us to lie, cheat, steal, rob, rape and kill.

It is as powerful as a God but also as weak as a mouse. Because it only ever wins when given power over us, when we give in and listen to its sweet lies and act to harm others.

Race is a lie used by Humans to hurt other Humans. We all came from the Earth and at the very end we all return to it. That's the long and short of it, my father put it depressingly to me when he said at the end of life the worms eat everyone all the same, Rich, Poor, Black, White. It doesn't matter in the slightest. *Suddenly realizing a lot of what he said was not appropriate for a young child*

Besides the only ones we should hold ill will towards are those foul Reticulans and other alien scum setting foot on Earth. Earth is for Humans only! :P

I said Humans would find a way....

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #32 on: August 09, 2016, 12:28:40 AM »
I said Humans would find a way....

Ah, I missed that *derp moment* Sorry.  :-[

Just like life, I always find a way to be dumb :P

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #33 on: August 09, 2016, 04:41:58 AM »
Here's the thing. If it was saying "All you bad Doms get out," then I would agree with her more. I would still disagree - I think the big thing is education and experience, and a lot of bad Doms aren't bad intentionally, they just haven't got the relevant experience and pointers to be good Doms yet; we all start somewhere - but I would understand where she was coming from. But nowhere does the author state "Oh, but you good Doms, you can stay." No, she just says "You straight males who like to Dom can fuck off, it isn't a kink and you're horrible people." Not in so many words, but...that is basically what she's saying. She mentions 50SoG once, and if that was the main point of her article, it would be at the beginning, not at the end of the list, tacked on like an afterthought. And if she was telling "Bad Doms" to get out, she wouldn't also target Switches, since - in my experience - Switches all too often make the best Doms since - as somebody pointed out already - they (we) have experience of both sides, so we can empathise and identify more with what the Sub needs (I like to think I'm a good Dom, but only my partners would be able to say that; everybody thinks they're the best, haha).

So whilst I think the whole "Bad Doms who come in thinking they automatically own you and can do whatever they want and think that Grey did everything right can piss off" is more understandable...I don't think that's what she was going for, since she never made that distinction. And if she were, that whole tangent on Switches wouldn't be there. She also wouldn't have taken the time to clarify that submissive men were OK, or that she likes walking into a room and seeing a man in a cage rather than a person in a cage. She also wouldn't have outright said that Male Doms aren't engaging in a kink, they're "Just reflecting a Social Norm." It just reads like she has an issue with Male Doms full stop, and that's what I have an issue with; the hypocritical, ignorant kink shaming.

It's ironic, really. She criticises 50SoG for missing the point of a BDSM relationship and being ignorant of the wider community (which it is) and then in the next breath displays a shocking level of ignorance and intolerance of her own towards a Kink she obviously doesn't understand.

And, of course, as a Switch I'm still steaming about the whole "Switch Isn't A Thing." I'll have you know, bitch, I'm probably more kinky than you in some ways! My sub tastes are very extreme compared to my Dom tastes. >.>
But that's just me.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2016, 04:43:02 AM by Vergil Tanner »

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #34 on: August 09, 2016, 11:20:08 PM »
All I could think of at the end there, darling, was Kermit with his tea.

But I agree with you on many points. My problem, too, is that it seems to be targetted at men dominating women, in whatever sense. And I think some of the problem is that part that's lost in translation: The difference between a kink and vanilla sex. A kink drives deeper into the heart of exploring a psychological and emotional crossroads in relation to an action, a thought or the change in dynamic. It is possible for a straight white male to engage in vanilla sex just as it is for anyone to engage in all the various levels of kinkiness. I think that's the disconnect between what I know, from my own experiences (which would be that the kink is in the action and the people who are prepared for the reaction) and not in the definition of their genitals. In fact, I might go so far as to accuse of sexism, though I hardly think that's necessary right now.

More to the point, every kink is an array of hit and miss. Some people prefer to submit themselves to wax play while others prefer to be the dominant figure in knife play, as an example. Excellent! Go my little kink nerds, and be the nerdiest kink nerds ever! And while there is a commonality of the kink, that doesn't make it mainstream. I think, in fact, that a whole world of Rocky Horror Picture Show fans would give anyone evil stares who suggested such a thing. Just because some men happen to land in "likes to be dominant" and "is straight" and also "happens to be white" at the same time, doesn't mean that there aren't just as wide an array of people outside the demographic who like to be dominant, or in that demographic who like to do... pretty much anything else.

The only way I can see to justifying the attitude (not the argument, mind, just the attitude, since that's the part I'm having trouble with) of the article were if she were trying to point out that those who are otherwise vanilla and simply want to be obeyed in the bedroom... That's indicative of a patriarchy infection. Even then, it's not a justification to close doors to them. Let them do them. They're not asking you to be part of it, then there's no need even to acknowledge it beyond a nod as you pass in the hallway.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #35 on: August 10, 2016, 11:14:37 AM »
Well, I would argue that even men who simply want to be obeyed in the bedroom isn't necessarily a "patriarchal infection." Some people just get off on being in charge...why does that have to be something that "THE PATRIARCHY" has caused, and not something that they just...enjoy? There's a difference, after all, between "Enjoying" it and "Expecting" it. And even then, how the hell do you go about proving that somebody wants to be in control because of Social / Traditional / Conservative reasons and not just because - for example - they feel out of control in their day to day life and enjoy exerting power over something? Even then, it doesn't really justify the attitude because if she wants to claim that men who like Vanilla Sex, but just so happen to enjoy being in charge is because of "THE PATRIARCHY," she has to prove it. She can't just assert it and have it accepted as fact. She needs to prove it...and that is difficult, because that is then effectively trying to prove intent which is always tough without Professor Xavier anywhere nearby. And on a tangent, even then what do you do about it? Do you punish or exclude them because they enjoy it for a distasteful reason? Then you're getting into Thought Crimes, and that opens a whole can of man-eating worms that would be better off left alone.

I just think that the author was using it as an excuse to go on a rant about how "Straight White Men" are invading HER passtime, and how dare they enjoy what THEY want because they're all sexist pigs...ironically not understanding that she herself is exposing herself as a sexist. So I can see that angle...but I don't think excuses the attitude, because it still relies on knowing somebodies intent and their deep psychological reasons for enjoying a thing...and you can never assume somebodies motivations and punish them for it, because down that route Orwell lies. >.>

Offline RedRose

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #36 on: August 10, 2016, 01:09:52 PM »
I agree it's a double standard. The same way a wife who hits her husband can be considered "funny".

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #37 on: August 10, 2016, 11:21:18 PM »
That's always bothered me too, Red.

Vergil, I think I actually agree with you, now, more than with what I said. There's no good way to justify it. Understand, maybe, but that doesn't make it justifiable.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #38 on: August 11, 2016, 12:18:01 AM »
It is interesting to think that...vanilla is only considered vanilla...because of prevailing cultural norms.  In another culture, or another intelligent species, such sex could be considered highly out of the ordinary.  The way she looks down on it, though, reveals her own bias, doesn't it?

Offline Warlock

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #39 on: August 11, 2016, 05:39:24 AM »
To provide a good contrast of varying cultural norms regarding sex and expression of sexuality, is to look at Tennessee where concepts like "gateway sexual activity" is part of the education. Which Includes any sexual contact which can lead to sex or pregancy, like kissing, or even advocating such expression on the part of a teacher.

Imagine anything outside of the missionary position is considered a kink by the legislators, or close to it.

Provides the amendments and bills. Don't support the organization in the link.
http://factn.org/portfolio/sb-3310hb-3621-amends-sex-education-curriculum-guidelines/

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #41 on: August 11, 2016, 09:20:56 AM »


Max is indeed wise.

We all need to detour before we fall in any further. :-)

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #42 on: August 11, 2016, 09:37:50 AM »
Basically. Sites like these put up polarizing and disagreeable articles like this all the time with the intent for people to hate it. The outcry in response results in more visits to their site and therefore ad revenue. It's literally using the current negative perception of feminism and emphasizing all of its negative aspects to get more money from people's dislike. I can Guarantee that there is no form of moderation in the comments section of OP's article.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 09:39:43 AM by FarFetched »

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #43 on: August 11, 2016, 11:19:36 AM »
Well...it's impossible to tell whether this was an attempt to exploit the negative perceptions of Third Wave Feminism or if the author actually believes what she wrote. I mean, even if this particular article isn't a genuinely feminist one, I've seen other, similar ones from people who definitely identify as Feminists and who definitely believe it. It's not an outright example of Poe's Law, but it's certainly related to it since even if it's not genuine, its indistinguishable from the real thing.

Either way, it sparks a conversation that does in many ways need to be had about how to categorise "Acceptable" kinks, and the nature of Domming / Subbing, as well as what to do with people who either aren't good at it, or misunderstand the concept of the roles themselves. Plus, it does reflect a misunderstanding and common thread in society at large which is basically "Anything that is different / that I don't understand is BAD." And that's something that bears talking about, if nothing else.

Offline Oniya

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #44 on: August 11, 2016, 11:43:11 AM »
Perfectly possible to carry on these conversations without falling for the click-bait.  And they are conversations that need to happen, because not every female sub is a sub because 'society says they have to be'.  Back when I was in college, I avoided a class in the Women's Studies department because it had the core tenet that women could either be the 'strong independent woman that don't need no man', or the 'housewife who supports her manly man in all that he does.'  One can quite easily be the CEO of a company and still want to come home and be dominated in the bedroom.  Regardless of gender or sexuality.  Hell, I can see someone wanting that simply because of the fact that they spend the whole day making important decisions.

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #45 on: August 11, 2016, 12:23:42 PM »
One can quite easily be the CEO of a company and still want to come home and be dominated in the bedroom.  Regardless of gender or sexuality.  Hell, I can see someone wanting that simply because of the fact that they spend the whole day making important decisions.

Isn't that basically why High Powered CEO's and businessmen and the like go to Dominatrixes in the first place? XD

I mean, that's the stereotype, but it's true. Men and women typically tend to enjoy Subbing and Domming for pretty much the same general reasons, haha.

But yeah, that's the kind of attitude that doesn't help; "You're either with us or against us!" "You can't be independent AND like X!" "If you make this choice, you're using your independence wrong!" Etc ad nauseum.
And truthfully, you should avoid most "Womens Studies" courses. A Degree in Womens/Gender Studies (the name varies from Uni to Uni), in my experience (I know several people who did that course or one similar), isn't worth the paper it's printed on most of the time.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2016, 12:26:09 PM by Vergil Tanner »

Offline Oniya

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #46 on: August 11, 2016, 01:05:35 PM »
And truthfully, you should avoid most "Womens Studies" courses. A Degree in Womens/Gender Studies (the name varies from Uni to Uni), in my experience (I know several people who did that course or one similar), isn't worth the paper it's printed on most of the time.

In my case, it was required for my core curriculum (x number of hours in y classification), not my actual degree (Bachelor's in Mathematics).  I ended up filling it with 'Biology of Women,' which was essentially a snooze-class for me.  Sadly, the 'Issues of Women and Leadership' course just kept conflicting with classes that were required for my major.  O:)

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2016, 01:19:20 PM »
*laughs* Hey, if they offer a course called something like "Understanding Women: A Mans 101 On How To Deal," I will be in the front note taking plenty of bloody notes. >.>

Y'know. Basically, when they start teaching something useful. :P

Offline RedRose

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #48 on: August 11, 2016, 01:53:10 PM »
I discovered the concept of women studies or gender studies online. While it seemed interesting per se, I've often been very puzzled by the content!

I've definitely met the kind of feminists who consider it such a waste/so backwards if your choice differs from theirs... My mom has a doctorate and a couple other degrees but chose to stay home to raise me, for years, and they did not like that! :D

I'm not into BDSM but I can't really be attracted to someone who doesn't have at least a slighly "stronger" personality than I do. I also need to look up to him in some way. One of my friends, who is very successful and has a ton of degrees, once told me that despite (?) this the thing she dreams of hearing from a guy is "no worries I'll handle it all" ;)

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #49 on: August 11, 2016, 02:19:06 PM »
You and me both! Even when I had the content explained to me, I kind of did a head tilt and was like "....and that's useful....how?" Or just a flat "I don't get it." XD

Oh, definitely! Too many people in the movement today seem to want to control peoples choices. I thought feminism was about giving women agency and independence, not taking it away, y'know? You give them equal opportunities and if they decide to be a stay at home mum, then that's their decision. Surely that's feminism in action, right? Alas, too many seem to view it as a "There's Only One Right Way To Be Independent" thing, which I just shake my head sadly at. It's part of why I don't identify as a feminist, but that's a rabbit hole for a different thread! XD

And I get that! That's not that weird...whilst there are people who like having a subservient personality, I think most people need to feel challenged in some way in order to remain interested, y'know? For me, at least, any relationship is an equal partnership that needs mutual respect, balance and complimentary strengths to work. And hey, I think everybody likes to hear from time to time "Don't worry about it, I got this," since everybody likes to feel like they don't have to worry and that that important thing that was stressing you out or that minor chore that's just the cherry on a massive stresscake is being taken care of by somebody else so you can just forget about it. At least, that's my view on that matter. I can't speak for everybody, of course! :P

Offline Oniya

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #50 on: August 11, 2016, 02:32:25 PM »
And hey, I think everybody likes to hear from time to time "Don't worry about it, I got this," since everybody likes to feel like they don't have to worry and that that important thing that was stressing you out or that minor chore that's just the cherry on a massive stresscake is being taken care of by somebody else so you can just forget about it. At least, that's my view on that matter. I can't speak for everybody, of course! :P

And this is why a well-thought-out D/s relationship can be quite healthy.  There are people who can deal with the minor-chore stress, and people that can deal with the major-task stress, and betwixt them both they lick the platter clean.

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #51 on: August 11, 2016, 02:59:32 PM »
And then get onto the more fun kind of licking! :P

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Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #52 on: August 11, 2016, 07:46:43 PM »
After reading the article the OP referenced is was left confused and went looking for something that made more sense and was grounded in reality.  This is what I found.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/all-about-sex/201206/loving-introduction-bdsm

It harkens back to the sessions I assisted my therapist in when she needed some live role playing assistance with her groups.

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #53 on: August 12, 2016, 04:57:10 AM »
I've got nothing else to say but "DAMN SKIPPY." I like that article far more than the original one. As you say, it's actually grounded in reality and seems to UNDERSTAND the kink rather than having an agenda to vilify something, haha. So...yeah, well found! :-)

Offline consortium11

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #54 on: August 17, 2016, 08:12:38 PM »
I think there's something that the discussion here so far has missed and I think it's pretty important to understand where the author is coming from.

Take quotes like this:

Quote
I came of age during the hyper-conservative Bush years and something in me will always resonate with the gonzo porn my boyfriends were watching at the time.

Quote
But Dommes (the female version) are rebelling against social roles that keep women subservient, while Doms (the male version) are looking at a society that is already anti-women and wants to keep them subservient.

Quote
Dommes, and the subs that serve them, are counter-culture. Doms would feel right at home with Don Draper.

Quote
You are not misunderstood you are just conservative.

Quote
I can fully respect your autonomy while judging your play partner. Society does this all the time, which is how men can go to strip clubs, but being a dancer is still frowned upon

Quote
They are literally the opposite of counter-culture

Quote
The tendency of straight, privileged, conservative white dudes to take over everything is making it much harder for me to find people interested in whatever random fetish I am into this week

Quote
Their pervasiveness is invading every attempt I have made to find a community.

Do you know what I get having read that?

This doesn't strike me as someone who's primarily interested in BDSM or kink because they enjoy BDSM or kink. They strike me as being primarily interested in BDSM and kink because it's edgy. Because it's rebellious. Because it's different. Because it's, as they say multiple times in the article, counter-culture. They strike me as the same sort of person who loved a band before anyone had heard of them and then accused them of "selling out" as soon as they other people started to like them. They strike me as being the sort of person who loved yoga and spiritual retreats a decade ago... but now hates it as cultural appropriation because it's become mainstream and popular. They'd have probably loved skateboarding in the 80's but lament how Tony Hawk ruined it by making money and getting the sport exposure. They loved the dingy, dodgy sex-shops down back alleys. They hated Anne Summers.

Frankly it strikes me as being pretty similar to the political lesbian movement... the women who weren't actually lesbian but decided to go for it as an act of rebellion and part of their struggle against sexism. So here comes Cathy Hope and she's rebelling against the patriarchy and she thinks the BDSM community would be a great way to do that what with dominant women, sissy's, sub-men, weird fetishes and all that. But what do you know? Some people aren't into BDSM as a political or moral statement. Some of us are into it because it's what fires us up and gives us pleasure. And some of us happen to be men. White men. CIS White Men. Who often identify as heterosexual. And shockingly while many of us find lots of different women attractive we also tend to find the most attractive the ones who are most conventionally considered attractive. And that's just not fair is it? Cathy Hope didn't get into BDSM to enjoy BDSM. She got into it to be part of a movement, a culture and to make a statement. And these men are ruining it by actually being into BDSM for its own sake. They're getting in the way of her perfect little world. She doesn't want a world where those evil straight, white, CIS men are accepting and tolerant of other sexualities, kinks and the like, quite happy to have a male pony-slave trot around next to them getting whipped by his mistress while the dom-trans woman takes another man from behind. No, she wants a world where those men aren't there so she can high five everyone that's left and talk about how different and special they are for doing this crazy, unique, weird thing that those boring mainstream people wouldn't understand.

So in short, she can fuck right off.

Truth is, it likely won't be an issue. In two years she'll have found something else rebellious and special and different to be infatuated by and she'll leave BDSM behind. I've seen people like this come into the community before. Normally they don't last. If you keep doing something because it's different then eventually it stops being different and then why are you doing it? 50 Shades has a huge amount wrong with it as a depiction of an actual BDSM relationship (although I've made the point before that it wasn't meant to be... it's a fantasy story that happened to get popular, little different to the erotic stories that get posted all over the web) but it also made BDSM that little bit more mainstream, that little bit more well known, that little bit more acceptable (although the legal position across much of the world is still horrendous). And once BDSM and kink become a bit mainstream? The Cathy Hopes' of the world will be on their merry way.

We just have to hope they don't cause too much damage in their passing.

I've seen it happening and it's bloody awful. Communities end up splitting as arbitrary rules more interested in maintaining BDSM as a counter culture then, you know, actually letting people have (safe, sane consensual) fun during play. A general disapproval of dom men and sub women, even if that's what the woman wants. And god forbid the sub woman in that case happens to be a PoC (normally worse if they're black) and the man is white, even if race play isn't part of their kink. The world basically ends if it is. Daddy doms and little girls getting shamed and thrown out of the "circle". Does anyone even want to think about mentioning consensual non-consent with the man as the aggressor? You'd better be pretty careful with any roleplays you want to do to make sure they're not reinforcing social norms. Doing some rope bondage? Well, it had better not be too close to shibari or that's cultural appropriation. But don't you dare call it shibari... that's a the evil white men using a Japanese word incorrectly when they should be saying kinbaku. And then you throw in all the other stuff that comes with any relatively closed community... cliques, petty arguements, social drama... but all now mixed in with buzzwords like privilege.

Online Vergil TannerTopic starter

Re: This article actually pissed me off.
« Reply #55 on: August 17, 2016, 08:36:12 PM »
I think there's something that the discussion here so far has missed and I think it's pretty important to understand where the author is coming from.

Just to be clear, I don't much care where she's coming from. There's too much ignorance and arrogance in her article for me to give her opinion that level of respect. Nothing on her as a person, of course, I haven't met her, blah blah blah...but as I always say; You need to respect peoples right to have an opinion, but that doesn't mean you have to respect the opinion itself. XD


This doesn't strike me as someone who's primarily interested in BDSM or kink because they enjoy BDSM or kink. They strike me as being primarily interested in BDSM and kink because it's edgy. Because it's rebellious. Because it's different. Because it's, as they say multiple times in the article, counter-culture. They strike me as the same sort of person who loved a band before anyone had heard of them and then accused them of "selling out" as soon as they other people started to like them. They strike me as being the sort of person who loved yoga and spiritual retreats a decade ago... but now hates it as cultural appropriation because it's become mainstream and popular. They'd have probably loved skateboarding in the 80's but lament how Tony Hawk ruined it by making money and getting the sport exposure. They loved the dingy, dodgy sex-shops down back alleys. They hated Anne Summers.

Frankly it strikes me as being pretty similar to the political lesbian movement... the women who weren't actually lesbian but decided to go for it as an act of rebellion and part of their struggle against sexism. So here comes Cathy Hope and she's rebelling against the patriarchy and she thinks the BDSM community would be a great way to do that what with dominant women, sissy's, sub-men, weird fetishes and all that. But what do you know? Some people aren't into BDSM as a political or moral statement. Some of us are into it because it's what fires us up and gives us pleasure. And some of us happen to be men. White men. CIS White Men. Who often identify as heterosexual. And shockingly while many of us find lots of different women attractive we also tend to find the most attractive the ones who are most conventionally considered attractive. And that's just not fair is it? Cathy Hope didn't get into BDSM to enjoy BDSM. She got into it to be part of a movement, a culture and to make a statement. And these men are ruining it by actually being into BDSM for its own sake. They're getting in the way of her perfect little world. She doesn't want a world where those evil straight, white, CIS men are accepting and tolerant of other sexualities, kinks and the like, quite happy to have a male pony-slave trot around next to them getting whipped by his mistress while the dom-trans woman takes another man from behind. No, she wants a world where those men aren't there so she can high five everyone that's left and talk about how different and special they are for doing this crazy, unique, weird thing that those boring mainstream people wouldn't understand.

I agree with all of this. I kinda picked up that kinda vibe, I just ignored it because I didn't care and was annoyed over the ignorance displayed in the post. At least when I don't know anything about a topic, I bow out of the discussion (Or at least, I try). Don't even get me started on Hipsters, and how stupidly arrogant the attitude of "Now it's popular, so it sucks" is. Don't get me wrong, I prefer Linkin Park and Avril Lavignes older stuff to their newer stuff, but that's because of a style change, not because it's popular. I'm not gonna insult people who don't like it. It's not for me, but you do you. Why y' gotta be so controlling of what everybody else is "allowed" to like, y'know? I mean, I agree with everything you're saying, I was just noting how annoying it is for me as both a Cis White Male (Well, as far as I know....I have a sneaking suspicion I might be slightly bisexual, but I currently have no way of testing that, so I'm content with calling myself Hetroflexible or Bi-Curious for the moment) AND a Switch to be told that my Kink doesn't exist, or isn't a kink and that I'm not welcome in a community that the author clearly doesn't understand.

That being said, I get the allure of the rebellion and the going against the norm, and if that's why you're in the community...well, more power to you. You do you. Just don't tell me not to do me, and we'll get along famously. Or at least be able to stay out of each others bloody way, y'know? If she wants to stick it to the man by sticking it in some guys butt, then cool, go right ahead. Hell, if I find you halfway attractive and you're a decent Dom, then I might letcha stick it in my butt (though judging by her lack of understanding of the BDSM community, I would have to say that my assumption going in would be that she's a passable Dom, at best, and that a lot of the scorn I would receive would be genuine and not play...I'm sure she'd respect my Safeword, but I wouldn't want to put it to the test >.> ). Just don't tell me what I can and can't enjoy, mmmk?

It's also ironic that in "fighting sexism," she became a blatant raging sexist asshole herself. Yes, Cathy, sexism against men exists. It isn't "Reverse Sexism" or "Deserved Sexism" or anything like that, it's just fucking Sexism.


So in short, she can fuck right off.




Truth is, it likely won't be an issue. In two years she'll have found something else rebellious and special and different to be infatuated by and she'll leave BDSM behind. I've seen people like this come into the community before. Normally they don't last. If you keep doing something because it's different then eventually it stops being different and then why are you doing it? 50 Shades has a huge amount wrong with it as a depiction of an actual BDSM relationship (although I've made the point before that it wasn't meant to be... it's a fantasy story that happened to get popular, little different to the erotic stories that get posted all over the web) but it also made BDSM that little bit more mainstream, that little bit more well known, that little bit more acceptable (although the legal position across much of the world is still horrendous). And once BDSM and kink become a bit mainstream? The Cathy Hopes' of the world will be on their merry way.

Oh, it's obvious that this obscure little blog post will never be a big issue, and she'll soon leave a community that is much better off without her, but...well, I can still be annoyed over her idiotic opinions on a subject she blatantly knows nothing about. XD Though I disagree that 50SoG wasn't meant to be a BDSM book - it so totally was, it just failed miserably - and I think that its net impact on the community was a mixed bag...it made it more mainstream, but also grossly misrepresented an already misunderstood community, but that's a debate for another day. I just wanted to bitch about it to sympathetic ears, and I reckoned Elliquiy would be the place to do that :P


I've seen it happening and it's bloody awful. Communities end up splitting as arbitrary rules more interested in maintaining BDSM as a counter culture then, you know, actually letting people have (safe, sane consensual) fun during play. A general disapproval of dom men and sub women, even if that's what the woman wants. And god forbid the sub woman in that case happens to be a PoC (normally worse if they're black) and the man is white, even if race play isn't part of their kink. The world basically ends if it is. Daddy doms and little girls getting shamed and thrown out of the "circle". Does anyone even want to think about mentioning consensual non-consent with the man as the aggressor? You'd better be pretty careful with any roleplays you want to do to make sure they're not reinforcing social norms. Doing some rope bondage? Well, it had better not be too close to shibari or that's cultural appropriation. But don't you dare call it shibari... that's a the evil white men using a Japanese word incorrectly when they should be saying kinbaku. And then you throw in all the other stuff that comes with any relatively closed community... cliques, petty arguements, social drama... but all now mixed in with buzzwords like privilege.

Oh, I agree. It's a complete and utter shitshow sometimes. I just hope that it doesn't happen here on E, since this is one of the few places I can actually go and get these itches scratched without being judged. >.> Basically, Social Justice infects everything it touches. There are real, genuine issues out there but when it starts to creep into communities that have nothing to do with that aspect of life, it tries to MAKE it about those issues and that's when the schisms and the bullshit starts. We need look no further than the absolute horror show that was Atheism+ to see THAT much. >.>
« Last Edit: August 17, 2016, 08:37:20 PM by Vergil Tanner »